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The Biblical Believers....

javaguru said:
Pick up a book and read about Nazi ideology, it was very much a religion.
Maybe you'll be better able to see the comparison after reading this;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_crusade
Pick up a book? Now I guess I'm stupid and uneducated? Please spare me. I have read plenty about Hitler and the Nazi party. Hitler was a nut. Lots of people kill people and give all sorts of absurd reasons. Blaming the holocaust on Christianity is absurd.

Coming on here and ripping people's religion makes you feel intellectually superior, then so be it. Have fun with that. :rolleyes:
 
blueta2 said:
LOL

cool, I want to be a mormon now. Do I have to ring ppl's doorbells on Sunday mornings at 7 am though ;-)

no, but they will probably send you on a doorbell mission to freaking East LA (compton)for a year.. that just might suck... oh wait.. I think missions are only for men too... disregard.
 
blueta2 said:
LOL

cool, I want to be a mormon now. Do I have to ring ppl's doorbells on Sunday mornings at 7 am though ;-)
If they have butterscoth pie, I would say anything they want me to say...lol.
 
heatherrae said:
If they have butterscoth pie, I would say anything they want me to say...lol.

Butterscotch.......that sounds awesome! I swear, my last meal would be pie and choc chip cookies. I hear the Germans make good cookies.
 
blueta2 said:
Butterscotch.......that sounds awesome! I swear, my last meal would be pie and choc chip cookies. I hear the Germans make good cookies.
ohhhh....for me it would be nachos and a blondie with the maple sauce and vanilla ice cream at applebees. :p Oh wow, HEAVEN!
 
heatherrae said:
Pick up a book? Now I guess I'm stupid and uneducated? Please spare me. I have read plenty about Hitler and the Nazi party. Hitler was a nut. Lots of people kill people and give all sorts of absurd reasons. Blaming the holocaust on Christianity is absurd.

Coming on here and ripping people's religion makes you feel intellectually superior, then so be it. Have fun with that. :rolleyes:

No, I blamed Western anti-semitism on Christianity. In 1543, Martin Luther wrote "On the Jews and Their Lies", a treatise in which he advocated harsh persecution of the Jewish people.



I can't help but feel intellectually superior when some twit tries to convince me the story of Moses really happened or the world is only 6k years old because someone with less scientific knowledge than a grade school child wrote it down on a parchment.
 
heatherrae said:
But what you guys are doing is labeling all Christians as being the tight assed WASP far right politician types. That isn't true and isn't fair. There are Christians who are loving, tolerant and do nice things for other people.

Your guys anger and venom toward the entire religion is misplaced.


I'm sure there were people in the NAZI party that were well meaning and thought that they were only serving to further the quality of life of germans and probably became uncomfortable with what ended up being...........should I judge the Nazi's based on those few people? Same thing with christianity..........I have no problem with alot of christians that I know, but I still judge christianity as a whole to be offensive to my sensibilities and I should not be subjected to laws meant to govern all of society that were influenced by christians. Are you pro women's reproductive rights heather? Are you for women being able to choose whether they can go on birth control or not.......are you for women being able to choose to terminate pregnancies, especially in cases involving their health and rape? If you are......you'd better watch out, because christianity will come for all of those rights........they're doing so as we speak. Right now christian groups are lobbying state governments and the federal government to enact laws that allow an emergency room doctor to tell a woman who's just been raped that she will not get the morning after pill prescribed to her. Now, alot of people will say that the woman can just go somewhere else and eventually get it............reality is that in a lot of locales' in this country a woman might have to drive a few hours to find a clinic that will do so.........this is unacceptable. Also, alot of women are so traumatized by the rape that when told they're not getting the morning after pill they may not seek it elsewhere. I have no more understanding for christianity because of this.......the vatican can give us a fucking 10 commandments of driving.......yet they didn't do shit in cleaning up the child abuse mess and went so far as to critisize american bishops for enacting policies they deemed to "harsh" towards priests who victimize children..........and no word from them either about what to do with a woman who's just been raped and wants the morning after pill. Dogma rules christians........eventually it will take your soul to the point where you can't think for yourself like a human being.......you just refer to scripture.........and then you are properly "owned"....................................not me
 
javaguru said:
.

I can't help but feel intellectually superior when some twit tries to convince me the story of Moses really happened or the world is only 6k years old because someone with less scientific knowledge than a grade school child wrote it down on a parchment.

agreed..........with some of them you really feel like you're talking to a petulant little child that doesn't understand the scientific process. That's what they're doing now.......american and liberty university are funding projects to do all sorts of things like attacking radiometric dating, attacking the fossil record.......now granted I'm no expert in both......but I know the scientific process when I see it, and I can see it's absence as well. So when I look at some of these websites proffessing to have irrefutable evidence that certain dating methods or astronomical data are false and that everything is as the OT say's it is...I'm just amazed at the intellectual crime that's being committed.........none of these people offer their data up to scrutiny.......no one goes before a scientific committe and repeats their findings.........it's like me writing a paper that proffesses I've solved cold fusion........and then telling everyone else that wants to test my theory or replicate my findings to jump off a high bridge.........that's not how things work, but these people don't care about the truth, they care about preserving their infantile dogma that decade by decade is having it's master document, the OT, chipped away at by progress.................blech!
 
javaguru said:
No, I blamed Western anti-semitism on Christianity. In 1543, Martin Luther wrote "On the Jews and Their Lies", a treatise in which he advocated harsh persecution of the Jewish people.



I can't help but feel intellectually superior when some twit tries to convince me the story of Moses really happened or the world is only 6k years old because someone with less scientific knowledge than a grade school child wrote it down on a parchment.
Did I try to convince you of the story or Moses, or the arc, or of anything for that matter? Yet, you are really insulting me. You are just as guilty of intolerance as those crazy right wing religious zealots that you so deeply despise.

As far as you and Red go, you call people names such as "infantile" etc. Why don't you contain your disdain for particular people? I don't consider myself to be ignorant, infantile, etc., and I have a fairly good science background.

The two brightest scientists that I know go to church. One is a research chemist for Notre Dame. The other a professor and UNC. I would bet dollars to donuts that they know just as much and probably more science than you two.

You guys support your arguments by talking about what some bad apples do and generalizing to everyone. What you are doing is no different than saying you hate black people, or that all black people are stupid or ignorant based upon anecdotal evidence of some bad people. Your hateful and derogatory speech is just as ignorant.

I believe in the separation of church and state. I don't shove anything down anyone's throat, and yet you attack all people who believe in God.
 
bad apples? I think the appropriate analogy would be on the scale of orchards.......seriously. If it were only a few bad apples our constitution wouldn't be under the attack that it is under....sorry, but that's the truth. Heather, you seem to be a really good person.....so I don't think JG and I are attacking "you" personally.......but the point he and I are making is that this is getting worse by the year.....and it's not just " a few" christians either. You have to stop judging things from within your own sphere of influence. Your family, the people you see at church.......that's what you judge christianity on.......so it's easy to see why someone would be miffed at people attacking christianity when they only judge from within their own personal experiences. Yet month by month, year by year......people within your beleif structure "use you" to exert an influence over everyone's daily affairs that I'm not sure even Christ would support. When it comes down that contraception has become illegal because of your people.........you'll feel it..........and you'll be outraged, but it will too late. So there's really no choice but to attack all of christianity and to do so with full vigor.........because christianity is becoming VERY dangerous........despite the fact that the majority of christians are completely oblivious to what they give over their spiritual selves to. I do think that most christians are fairly moderate........but the extremists are using you right now and are convincing alot of people that they speak for the hundreds of millions of christians in this country........and until moderate christians stand up to them........this country is going to spiral towards a christian theocracy where you can beleive that the upper 5% of the country will continue to do things that the rest of us would be thrown in jail for...........control and domination, that's what this all boils down to.

heatherrae said:
Did I try to convince you of the story or Moses, or the arc, or of anything for that matter? Yet, you are really insulting me. You are just as guilty of intolerance as those crazy right wing religious zealots that you so deeply despise.

As far as you and Red go, you call people names such as "infantile" etc. Why don't you contain your disdain for particular people? I don't consider myself to be ignorant, infantile, etc., and I have a fairly good science background.

The two brightest scientists that I know go to church. One is a research chemist for Notre Dame. The other a professor and UNC. I would bet dollars to donuts that they know just as much and probably more science than you two.

You guys support your arguments by talking about what some bad apples do and generalizing to everyone. What you are doing is no different than saying you hate black people, or that all black people are stupid or ignorant based upon anecdotal evidence of some bad people. Your hateful and derogatory speech is just as ignorant.

I believe in the separation of church and state. I don't shove anything down anyone's throat, and yet you attack all people who believe in God.
 
javaguru said:
There were some good Nazi's too. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe

John Rabe (November 23, 1882 – January 5, 1950) was a German businessman whose Nanjing Safety Zone sheltered some 200,000 Chinese from slaughter during the Nanjing Massacre.

Born in Hamburg, Germany, Rabe pursued a career in business and went to Africa for several years. In 1908 he left for China, and between 1910 and 1938, he worked for the Siemens AG China Corporation in Shenyang, Beijing, Tianjin, Shanghai and later Nanjing.

On November 22, 1937, as the Imperial Japanese Army advanced on Nanjing, Rabe, along with other foreign nationals, organized the International Committee and drew up Nanjing Safety Zone to provide Chinese refugees with food and shelter upon the impending Japanese slaughter. He explained his reasons thus: "..there is a question of morality here.. I cannot bring myself for now to betray the trust these people have put in me, and it is touching to see how they believe in me." The zones were located on all of the foreign embassies and at Nanjing University. Rabe also opened up his properties to help 650 more refugees. The following massacre would allegedly kill hundreds of thousands of people, while Rabe and his zone administrators tried frantically to stop the atrocities. Although he tried to appeal to the Japanese by using his Nazi membership credentials, this had little effect.

On February 28, 1938 Rabe left Nanjing, traveling to Shanghai and then back to Germany. He showed films and photographs of Japanese atrocities in lecture presentations in Berlin and wrote to Hitler to use his influence to persuade the Japanese to stop any more inhumane violence. Instead, Rabe was detained and interrogated by the Gestapo and his letter to Hitler never sent. Due to the intervention of Siemens AG, he was released. He was allowed to keep evidence of the massacre, excluding the film, but was not allowed to lecture or write on the subject. Rabe would continue working for Siemens, which posted him briefly to the safety of Afghanistan. Until 1945 Rabe worked in the Berlin headquarters of the company.

After the war, Rabe was denounced for his Nazi Party membership and arrested by the Russians first and then by the British. However, investigations exonerated him of any wrongdoing. He was formally declared "de-Nazified" by the Allies in June 1946 but thereafter lived in poverty. Rabe was partly supported by the monthly food and money parcels sent by the Chinese government for his actions during the Rape of Nanjing.

In 1950, Rabe died of a stroke. In 1997 his tombstone was moved from Berlin to Nanjing where it received a place of honour at the massacre memorial site.

His war-time diaries are published in English as The Good German of Nanking (UK title) or The Good Man of Nanking (US title) (original German title: Der gute Deutsche von Nanking).

I like that movie The Pianist.
 
javaguru said:
Based on the old testament, Hitler and God have a lot in common.


It would be absurd to think that Hitler persecuted the Jews for religious reasons though. Believing that would make one no more credible than a Christian/Muslim/Arab/Jewish/Scientologist etc. fanatic.
 
hanselthecaretaker said:
It would be absurd to think that Hitler persecuted the Jews for religious reasons though. Believing that would make one no more credible than a Christian/Muslim/Arab/Jewish/Scientologist etc. fanatic.
I was talking about telling their people they are chosen and commanding genocide.
 
HR, these are institutionalized beliefs....
The Southern Baptist Convention..... http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/default.asp

Since its organization in 1845 in Augusta, Georgia, the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) has grown to over 16 million members who worship in more than 42,000 churches in the United States. Southern Baptists sponsor about 5,000 home missionaries serving the United States, Canada, Guam and the Caribbean, as well as sponsoring more than 5,000 foreign missionaries in 153 nations of the world.

The Scriptures
The Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired and is God's revelation of Himself to man. It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter.

Church and State
We stand for a free church in a free state. Neither one should control the affairs of the other. We support the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, with its "establishment" and "free exercise" clauses.

We do, of course, acknowledge the legitimate interplay of these two spheres. For example, it is appropriate for the state to enact and enforce fire codes for the church nurseries. It is also appropriate for ministers to offer prayer at civic functions. Neither the Constitution nor Baptist tradition would build a wall of separation against such practices as these.

Sexuality
We affirm God's plan for marriage and sexual intimacy – one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a "valid alternative lifestyle." The Bible condemns it as sin. It is not, however, unforgivable sin. The same redemption available to all sinners is available to homosexuals. They, too, may become new creations in Christ.

Pick3 is a good borly and it's completely unfair to his lifestyle, especially considering the growing consensus homosexuality is genetic.

Women in Ministry
Women participate equally with men in the priesthood of all believers. Their role is crucial, their wisdom, grace and commitment exemplary. Women are an integral part of our Southern Baptist boards, faculties, mission teams, writer pools, and professional staffs. We affirm and celebrate their Great Commission impact.

While Scripture teaches that a woman's role is not identical to that of men in every respect, and that pastoral leadership is assigned to men, it also teaches that women are equal in value to men.


Evangelism & Missions
It is the duty and privilege of every follower of Christ and every church of the Lord Jesus Christ to endeavor to make disciples of all nations … to seek constantly to win the lost to Christ by personal effort.
 
"The 2004 survey of Religion and politics in the United States identified the Evangelical percentage of the population at 26.3%; while Catholics are 22% and Mainline Protestants make up 16%.

In the 2007 Statistical Abstract of the United States, the figures for these same groups are 28.6% (Evangelical), 24.5% (Catholics), and 13.9% (Mainline Protestant.) "


Here is a current list of the church members of the "National Association of Evangelicals"

Mission Statement:
"The mission of the National Association of Evangelicals is to extend the kingdom of God through a fellowship of member denominations, churches, organizations, and individuals, demonstrating the unity of the body of Christ by standing for biblical truth, speaking with a representative voice, and serving the evangelical community through united action, cooperative ministry, and strategic planning."



These Protestant church groups were members as of 2007:

Advent Christian General Conference (joined 1986)
Assemblies of God (joined 1943)
Baptist General Conference (joined 1966)
The Brethren Church (joined 1968)
Brethren in Christ Church (joined 1949)
Christian Catholic Church (Evangelical Protestant) (joined 1975)
The Christian and Missionary Alliance (joined 1966)
Christian Church of North America (joined 1953)
Christian Reformed Church in North America (joined 1943-51; 1988)
Christian Union (joined 1954)
Church of God (Cleveland) (joined 1944)
Church of God Mountain Assembly, Inc. (joined 1981)
Church of the Nazarene (joined 1984)
Church of the United Brethren in Christ (joined 1953)
Churches of Christ in Christian Union (joined 1945)
Congregational Holiness Church (joined 1990-92; 1994)
Conservative Baptist Association of America (joined 1990)
Conservative Congregational Christian Conference (joined 1951)
Conservative Lutheran Association (joined 1984)
Elim Fellowship (joined 1947)
Evangelical Church of North America(joined 1969)
Evangelical Congregational Church (joined 1962)
Evangelical Free Church of America (joined 1943)
Evangelical Friends International of North America (joined 1971)
Evangelical Mennonite Church (joined 1944)
Evangelical Methodist Church (joined 1952)
Evangelical Presbyterian Church (joined 1982)
Evangelistic Missionary Fellowship (joined 1982)
Fellowship of Evangelical Bible Churches (joined 1948)
Fire Baptized Holiness Church of God of the Americas (joined 1978)
Free Methodist Church of North America (joined 1944)
General Association of General Baptists (joined 1988)
Great Commission Churches (joined 2007)
International Church of the Foursquare Gospel (joined 1952)
International Pentecostal Church of Christ (joined 1946)
International Pentecostal Holiness Church (joined 1943)
Mennonite Brethren Churches, USA (joined 1946)
Midwest Congregational Christian Fellowship (joined 1964)
Missionary Church, Inc. (joined 1944)
Open Bible Standard Churches (joined 1943)
Pentecostal Church of God (joined 1954)
Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church, Inc. (joined 1988)
Presbyterian Church in America (joined 1986)
Primitive Methodist Church USA (joined 1946)
Reformed Episcopal Church (joined 1990)
Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (joined 1946)
Regional Synod of Mid-America (Reformed Church in America) (joined 1989)
The Salvation Army, National Headquarters (joined 1990)
The Wesleyan Church (joined 1948)
Worldwide Church of God (joined 1997)



"Evangelical influence was evident in past movements which are now unpopular, such as prohibition and anti-immigration."


^ a b American Religious Landscape and Political Attitudes: A Baseline for 2004. American Landscape Reports. Ray C. Bliss Institute of Applied Politics (2004). Retrieved on 2007-04-04.
 
I'm not the only one that finds commonality among political ideologies and religion. Considering one of the functions of religion is primitive cultures is governance it isn't all that surprising.

"One strength of the Communist system ... is that it has some of the characteristics of a religion and inspires the emotions of a religion."
-- Albert Einstein, Out Of My Later Years (1950), quoted from Laird Wilcox, ed., "The Degeneration of Belief"
 
as much as I think "organized religion" has harmed pretty much every society throughout the ages...we get it bro. You're putting way too much energy into living up to your title of "Militant Atheist."

Don't get me wrong. I do enjoy most of your posts and respect your knowledge and views on many issues. I think you're a cool guy, and I got no hate and much love for you. And I'm certainly not trying to argue anyone's point here, but let it go and relax.

In an attempt to validate that I'm not lashing out at you, a little about me:
I haven't been in a church in years. I'd consider myself somewhat spiritual, but not at all religious. I believe in something greater than me but don't assume to come close to having any answers. I just have a hard time believing the perfection of everything in the universe is an accident. I believe there is strong enough evidence to prove that Jesus actually walked the earth, but I don't believe he was anything more than a man (certainly not god). I guess some would call me agnostic...others atheist...others a non-believer...whatever. I just try to be good to people and treat others how I'd like to be treated. Of course I like to stir shit too. I think good debates are healthy as long as they stay "good debates".

Love ya bro. :)
 
ceo said:
as much as I think "organized religion" has harmed pretty much every society throughout the ages...we get it bro. You're putting way too much energy into living up to your title of "Militant Atheist."

Don't get me wrong. I do enjoy most of your posts and respect your knowledge and views on many issues. I think you're a cool guy, and I got no hate and much love for you. And I'm certainly not trying to argue anyone's point here, but let it go and relax.

In an attempt to validate that I'm not lashing out at you, a little about me:
I haven't been in a church in years. I'd consider myself somewhat spiritual, but not at all religious. I believe in something greater than me but don't assume to come close to having any answers. I just have a hard time believing the perfection of everything in the universe is an accident. I believe there is strong enough evidence to prove that Jesus actually walked the earth, but I don't believe he was anything more than a man (certainly not god). I guess some would call me agnostic...others atheist...others a non-believer...whatever. I just try to be good to people and treat others how I'd like to be treated. Of course I like to stir shit too. I think good debates are healthy as long as they stay "good debates".

Love ya bro. :)
I think Dawkins put it well in an interview why it's important to push the envelope when it comes to faith. If religion makes someone feel good then I see nothing wrong with it as long as it remains a personal issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMIE2mgViFo
 
A primary concern of mine has always been the attempts by religions to insert their beliefs into science. The perfect example is the "Intelligent Design" movement and the attempt to have it taught on par with real science in public schools. The other is the intrusion on the civil rights of others.

The Root of All Evil?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skEJ008jjY8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3pNazSUmu4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp3PJN9wSr8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b71_8lX9Ffc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGuclL7rfTM
 
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999
US physicist (1933 - )
 
My only question for you is what was the initial start of this whole thing. Before there was nothing and at some point there is us here on EF, what was the initial kick.

Oh and that last quote is just crap, coming from open minded thinkers that quote I would expect a more logical statement.
 
sfmonster said:
My only question for you is what was the initial start of this whole thing. Before there was nothing and at some point there is us here on EF, what was the initial kick.

Oh and that last quote is just crap, coming from open minded thinkers that quote I would expect a more logical statement.
No one knows for certain right now. We can see how we can get all living and non living matter out of the simplest element, hydrogen, but how did anything at all come into existence? Not sure.

But here is the thing, you think that saying there is some creator, some omnipotent being, that would explain it right?

BUT, any intelligent and rational person would immediately thing, how did THAT being come into existence, what was the initial kick that put that being into place?

It begs the question, and in turn you get an infinite regression.

We have shown that complex life comes into existence after a VERY long time, millions of years from a single cell to a complicated human being, I would say it takes billions of not trillions of years for a basic element to "appear" whatever that means.

We are still tracing our steps backwards, science has never had all of the answers, and never will! Just not too long ago we used to think the earth was thousands of years old and was the center of the solar system. Just because we didn't know the truth at any given time, didn't make religion or creationism any more or less true.
 
Lestat said:
No one knows for certain right now. We can see how we can get all living and non living matter out of the simplest element, hydrogen, but how did anything at all come into existence? Not sure.

But here is the thing, you think that saying there is some creator, some omnipotent being, that would explain it right?

BUT, any intelligent and rational person would immediately thing, how did THAT being come into existence, what was the initial kick that put that being into place?

It begs the question, and in turn you get an infinite regression.

We have shown that complex life comes into existence after a VERY long time, millions of years from a single cell to a complicated human being, I would say it takes billions of not trillions of years for a basic element to "appear" whatever that means.

We are still tracing our steps backwards, science has never had all of the answers, and never will! Just not too long ago we used to think the earth was thousands of years old and was the center of the solar system. Just because we didn't know the truth at any given time, didn't make religion or creationism any more or less true.



Ya I'm with you on all that but you did nothing but explain what we KNOW right now. What we KNOW right now is really not any closer to an explanation than what they new 2000 years ago so odd are we won't KNOW anything else before you and I die. With that simply logic I am willing to risk a little bit and say there was a creator, probably not what everyone thinks but something nonetheless and run with it.
 
sfmonster said:
Ya I'm with you on all that but you did nothing but explain what we KNOW right now. What we KNOW right now is really not any closer to an explanation than what they new 2000 years ago so odd are we won't KNOW anything else before you and I die. With that simply logic I am willing to risk a little bit and say there was a creator, probably not what everyone thinks but something nonetheless and run with it.
We know a lot more now than 2000 years ago! WAY more actually. We used to always assume that if something looks planned, then it must be.

To cite dawkins examples again, if you were to walk on the beach and saw the small pebbles separated from the large ones, which is common because the force of the wave acts different on large stones than small ones, would you think that some intelligent force deliberately picked up those stones and put them there in that manner?

Well 2000 years ago people would likely have come up with an explanation, a sky god, a wave god, some unseen force that was responsible for it.

But now, we understand that this is a result of the physical properties of the stone and the waves and although it looks like there is incredible order and meticulous thought that went into it, its obvious now that there is not.

There will always be unknowns, scienes is about pursuing them, chasing them down.

2000 years ago we didn't know that you could use nuclear fusion to create new complex elements out of simple ones. We just assumed that they were all created at the same time.

Do you see where I am going with this?

Seems to me like religious people are afraid of just saying "I don't know" and for everything that they don't know they use GOD as the explanation! He lives between the cracks of reason and intelligence, anywhere that there is a gap in knowledge and understanding people fill it in with God, which seems silly and ignorant to me if we are going to be candid here.
 
i love religion threads, i always seem to haul in a ton of green karma from them, i appreciate everyone's positive comments!
 
So which one is has the true answer to the great question? United Atheist Alliance, Unified Atheist League, or Allied Atheist Allegiance?

And didn't Dawkins fall in love with and screw Mr. Garrison after Garrison threw feces at him?

couldn't find a link to that. too bad
 
lol @ religious debates.. have fun in hell javaguru and lestat..

honestly why even chance it.. i dare you to pray for 30 days for god to show you he is real and if he doesn't ill kill myself..

legitimately pray..
 
Phaded said:
..

honestly why even chance it.. ..


why chance being your own man and proceeding down your own "individual" path to spirituality?.......seems an odd question.........it's like saying just adhere to a certain set of principles you don't totally agree with in the happenstance that god actually feels that way.........I say be your own mother fucker, god will appreciate that a hell of alot more.........I'm serious about that..........
 
redsamurai said:
why chance being your own man and proceeding down your own "individual" path to spirituality?.......seems an odd question.........it's like saying just adhere to a certain set of principles you don't totally agree with in the happenstance that god actually feels that way.........I say be your own mother fucker, god will appreciate that a hell of alot more.........I'm serious about that..........

lol i am my person going down my own path.. i'm not even saved yet.. doesnt mean i dont believe in god..
 
Phaded said:
lol i am my person going down my own path.. i'm not even saved yet.. doesnt mean i dont believe in god..


if you're a man of honor,integrity and ethics........do you think god cares if you beleive in him or not? Do I find people curious who think all of this just came about by accident? yes..........do I find people equally if not more curious who beleive a book written by men in living in a dessert 2000 years ago as the inspirational words of the "maker"..........oh you bet. But Phaded.........if you're a strict christian you simply are not going down your own path.......I'm sorry, but you're not.........you're doing as your told to do, with some leeway here and there about where and when you take a crap........otherwise they own you.
 
redsamurai said:
if you're a man of honor,integrity and ethics........do you think god cares if you beleive in him or not? Do I find people curious who think all of this just came about by accident? yes..........do I find people equally if not more curious who beleive a book written by men in living in a dessert 2000 years ago as the inspirational words of the "maker"..........oh you bet. But Phaded.........if you're a strict christian you simply are not going down your own path.......I'm sorry, but you're not.........you're doing as your told to do, with some leeway here and there about where and when you take a crap........otherwise they own you.

sorry dude i just dont agree with you.. and i'm not gonna get into it.. because its pointless..
 
Phaded said:
sorry dude i just dont agree with you.. and i'm not gonna get into it.. because its pointless..


you think god requires worship from us?.......the maker of all that is, was and ever will be requires us to utter an arbitrary name we came up with to describe it? This thing, whatever it is.....he/she/it...........it's so profound and so powerful that to think we relate to it in any way shape or form is just silly. Live your life like a samurai and you'll do just fine when your judgement comes.
 
is your dad still bothering you about that shit? some people just try and shove it down others throats too much.. shouldn't even do that in the first place..
 
Phaded said:
is your dad still bothering you about that shit? some people just try and shove it down others throats too much.. shouldn't even do that in the first place..


nah, he pretty much gave up when I sprouted horns and started talking in demonite.........hehe. And I agree, one should never proselytize one's relgion..........I'm just going to live my life like a nobel samurai, whatever happens happens.......I'm just disillusioned by people of religion, they're ruining my experience here.
 
Phaded said:
you're prob. getting fucked with by mormoms..


not really........it's the falwell/robertson people that apparently call the shots in washington right now that fuck with me. C'mon man, that shit I posted a couple days ago about the fuckhat that told a woman who'd just been raped she can't have the morning after pill??? That's the shit that tells me things are getting serious........people are dropping their humanity in favor of a set ideals that tell them how to think..........bad times dude, real bad times we're in.
 
things like that make you realize were in bad times? c'mon thats nothing compared to some of the shit that goes on..
 
Phaded said:
things like that make you realize were in bad times? c'mon thats nothing compared to some of the shit that goes on..

you have to look at it deeper than just one woman and one doctor interacting...........also, you have to see that there's no real outrage against doctors that are doing that more and more, in fact, they're becoming more emboldened to do so due to the support they have. The war in Iraq and this ongoing bullshit with Islam we're having is nothing compared to this.........this is a true drop in moral ethos
 
phaded that is a ridiculous offer to make, you do what works for you, but realize the good and the bad that comes along with most significant personal religions.

I was saved at one point in my life, if it was legit, then I suppose I'm covered right? I need to start working on other ways to salvation now, each flavor of "god" seems to have their own unique path.
 
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sfmonster said:
Ya I'm with you on all that but you did nothing but explain what we KNOW right now. What we KNOW right now is really not any closer to an explanation than what they new 2000 years ago so odd are we won't KNOW anything else before you and I die. With that simply logic I am willing to risk a little bit and say there was a creator, probably not what everyone thinks but something nonetheless and run with it.
When I took Astronomy in 1992 the super massive black hole in the center of the Milky Way Galaxy was just a hypothesis, now there is enough evidence that it is generally accepted in the scientific community.

How much of this was known 2000 years ago and this is a simplistic wikipedia article?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole

A black hole is an object with a gravitational field so powerful that a region of space becomes cut off from the rest of the universe – no matter or radiation, including visible light, that has entered the region can ever escape. The lack of escaping electromagnetic radiation renders the inside of black holes (beyond the event horizon) invisible, hence the name. However, black holes can be detectable if they interact with matter, e.g. by sucking in gas from an orbiting star. The gas spirals inward, heating up to very high temperatures and emitting large amounts of light, X-rays and Gamma rays in the process while still outside of the event horizon.[2][3][4] Black holes are also thought to emit a weak form of thermal energy called Hawking radiation.[5][6][7]

While the idea of an object with gravity strong enough to prevent light from escaping was proposed in the 18th century, black holes as presently understood are described by Einstein's theory of general relativity, developed in 1916. This theory predicts that when a large enough amount of mass is present within a sufficiently small region of space, all paths through space are warped inwards towards the center of the volume. When an object is compressed enough for this to occur, collapse is unavoidable (it would take infinite strength to resist collapsing into a black hole). When an object passes within the event horizon at the boundary of the black hole, it is lost forever (it would take an infinite amount of effort for an object to climb out from inside the hole). Although the object would be reduced to a singularity, the information it carries is not lost (see the black hole information paradox).

While general relativity describes a black hole as a region of empty space with a pointlike singularity at the center and an event horizon at the outer edge, the description changes when the effects of quantum mechanics are taken into account. The final, correct description of black holes, requiring a theory of quantum gravity, is unknown.
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Sizes of black holes
* 2 What makes it impossible to escape from black holes?
* 3 Do black holes have "no hair"?
* 4 Types of black holes
* 5 Major features of non-rotating, uncharged black holes
o 5.1 Event horizon
o 5.2 Singularity at a single point
o 5.3 A photon sphere
o 5.4 Accretion disk
* 6 Major features of rotating black holes
o 6.1 Two event horizons
o 6.2 Two photon spheres
o 6.3 Ergosphere
o 6.4 Ring-shaped singularity
o 6.5 Possibility of escaping from a rotating black hole
* 7 What happens when something falls into a black hole?
o 7.1 Spaghettification
o 7.2 Before the falling object crosses the event horizon
o 7.3 As the object passes through the event horizon
o 7.4 Inside the event horizon
o 7.5 Hitting the singularity
* 8 Formation and evaporation
o 8.1 Formation of stellar-mass black holes
o 8.2 Formation of larger black holes
o 8.3 Formation of smaller black holes
o 8.4 Evaporation
* 9 Techniques for finding black holes
o 9.1 Accretion disks and gas jets
o 9.2 Strong radiation emissions
o 9.3 Gravitational lensing
o 9.4 Objects orbiting possible black holes
* 10 Black hole candidates
o 10.1 Supermassive black holes at the centers of galaxies
o 10.2 Intermediate-mass black holes in globular clusters
o 10.3 Stellar-mass black holes in the Milky Way
o 10.4 Micro black holes
* 11 History of the black hole concept
o 11.1 Newtonian theories (before Einstein)
o 11.2 Theories based on Einstein's general relativity
* 12 Black holes and Earth
o 12.1 Black hole wandering through our solar system
o 12.2 Micro black hole escaping from a particle accelerator
* 13 Alternative models
* 14 More advanced topics
o 14.1 Entropy and Hawking radiation
o 14.2 Black hole unitarity
* 15 Mathematical theory
* 16 References
* 17 Further reading
o 17.1 Popular reading
o 17.2 University textbooks and monographs
o 17.3 Research papers
* 18 External links

[edit] Sizes of black holes

Black holes can have any mass. Since gravity increases in inverse proportion to volume, any quantity of matter that is sufficiently compressed will become a black hole. However, when black holes form naturally, only a few mass ranges are realistic.

Black holes can be divided into several size categories:

* Supermassive black holes that contain millions to billions of times the mass of the sun are believed to exist in the center of most galaxies, including our own Milky Way.
* Intermediate-mass black holes, whose size is measured in thousands of solar masses, may exist. Intermediate-mass black holes have been proposed as a possible power source for ultra-luminous X ray sources.
* Stellar-mass black holes have masses ranging from about 1.5-3.0 solar masses (the Tolman-Oppenheimer-Volkoff limit) to 15 solar masses. These black holes are created by the collapse of individual stars. Stars above about 20 solar masses may collapse to form black holes; the cores of lighter stars form neutron stars or white dwarf stars. In all cases some of the star's material is lost (blown away during the red giant stage for stars that turn into white dwarfs, or lost in a supernova explosion for stars that turn into neutron stars or black holes).
* Micro black holes, which have masses at which the effects of quantum mechanics are expected to become very important. This is usually assumed to be near the Planck mass. Alternatively, the term micro black hole or mini black hole may refer to any black hole with mass much less than that of a star. Black holes of this type have been proposed to have formed during the Big Bang (primordial black holes), but no such holes have been detected as of 2007.

Astrophysicists expect to find stellar-mass and larger black holes, because a stellar mass black hole is formed by the gravitational collapse of a star of 20 or more solar masses at the end of its life, and can then act as a seed for the formation of a much larger black hole.

Micro black holes might be produced by:

* The Big Bang, which produced pressures far larger than that of a supernova and therefore sufficient to produce primordial black holes without needing the powerful gravity fields of collapsing large stars.
* High-energy particle accelerators such as the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), if certain non-standard assumptions are correct (typically, an assumption of large extra dimensions). However, any black holes produced in such a manner will evaporate practically instantaneously, thus posing no danger to Earth.

[edit] What makes it impossible to escape from black holes?

General relativity describes mass as changing the shape of spacetime, and the shape of spacetime as describing how matter moves through space. For objects much less dense than black holes, this results in something similar to Newton's laws of gravity: objects with mass attract each other, but it's possible to define an escape velocity which allows a test object to leave the gravitational field of any large object. For objects as dense as black holes, this stops being the case. The effort required to leave the hole becomes infinite, with no escape velocity defined.

There are several ways of describing the situation that causes escape to be impossible. The difference between these descriptions is how space and time coordinates are drawn on spacetime (the choice of coordinates depends on the choice of observation point and on additional definitions used). One common description, based on the Schwarzschild description of black holes, is to consider the time axis in spacetime to point inwards towards the center of the black hole once the horizon is crossed.[8] Under these conditions, falling further into the hole is as inevitable as moving forward in time. A related description is to consider the future light cone of a test object near the hole (all possible paths the object or anything emitted by it could take, limited by the speed of light). As the object approaches the event horizon at the boundary of the black hole, the future light cone tilts inwards towards the horizon. When the test object passes the horizon, the cone tilts completely inward, and all possible paths lead into the hole.[9]

[edit] Do black holes have "no hair"?

The "No hair" theorem states that black holes have only 3 independent internal properties: mass, angular momentum and electric charge. It is impossible to tell the difference between a black hole formed from a highly compressed mass of normal matter and one formed from, say, a highly compressed mass of anti-matter, in other words, any information about infalling matter or energy is destroyed. This is the black hole information paradox.

The theorem only works in some of the types of universe which the equations of general relativity allow, but until the the late 1990s it appeared that the universe in which we live belongs to one of the types in which the theorem works. However astronomical observations from 1999 onwards suggest that the expansion of the universe is accelerating. One of the most widely-supported explanations for the acceleration is that the cosmological constant in Einstein's general relativity equations is not zero, and the "no hair" theorem does not work if the cosmological constant is not zero.[citation needed]

[edit] Types of black holes

Despite the uncertainty about whether the "No Hair" theorem applies to our universe, astrophysicists currently classify black holes according to their angular momentum (non-zero angular momentum means the black hole is rotating) and electric charge:
Non-rotating Rotating
Uncharged Schwarzschild Kerr
Charged Reissner-Nordström Kerr-Newman

(All black holes have non-zero mass, so mass cannot be used for this type of "yes" / "no" classification)

Physicists do not expect that black holes with a significant electric charge will be formed in nature, because the electromagnetic repulsion which resists the compression of an electrically charged mass is about 40 orders of magnitude greater (about 1040 times greater) than the gravitational attraction which compresses the mass. So this article does not cover charged black holes in detail, but the Reissner-Nordström black hole and Kerr-Newman metric articles provide more information.

On the other hand astrophysicists expect that almost all black holes will rotate, because the stars from which they are formed rotate. In fact most black holes are expected to spin very rapidly, because they retain most of the angular momentum of the stars from which they were formed but concentrated into a much smaller radius. The same laws of angular momentum make skaters spin faster if they pull their arms closer to their bodies.

This article describes non-rotating, uncharged black holes first, because they are the simplest type.

[edit] Major features of non-rotating, uncharged black holes

[edit] Event horizon

This is the boundary of the region from which not even light can escape. An observer at a safe distance would see a dull black sphere if the black hole was in a pure vacuum but in front of a light background such as a bright nebula. The event horizon is not a solid surface, and does not obstruct or slow down matter or radiation which is traveling towards the region within the event horizon.

The event horizon is the defining feature of a black hole - it is black because no light or other radiation can escape from inside it. So the event horizon hides whatever happens inside it and we can only calculate what happens by using the best theory available, which at present is general relativity.

The gravitational field outside the event horizon is identical to the field produced by any other spherically symmetric object of the same mass. The popular conception of black holes as "sucking" things in is false: objects can maintain an orbit around black holes indefinitely provided they stay outside the photon sphere (described below).

[edit] Singularity at a single point

According to general relativity, a black hole's mass is entirely compressed into a region with zero volume, which means its density and gravitational pull are infinite, and so is the curvature of space-time which it causes. These infinite values cause most physical equations, including those of general relativity, to stop working at the center of a black hole. So physicists call the zero-volume, infinitely dense region at the center of a black hole a "singularity".

The singularity in a non-rotating, uncharged black hole is a point, in other words it has zero length, width and height.

But there is an important uncertainty about this description: quantum mechanics is as well-supported by mathematics and experimental evidence as general relativity, and does not allow objects to have zero size - so quantum mechanics says the center of a black hole is not a singularity but just a very large mass compressed into the smallest possible volume. At present we have no well-established theory which combines quantum mechanics and general relativity; and the most promising candidate, string theory, also does not allow objects to have zero size.

The rest of this article will follow the predictions of general relativity, because quantum mechanics deals with very small-scale (sub-atomic) phenomena and general relativity is the best theory we have at present for explaining large-scale phenomena such as the behavior of masses similar to or larger than stars.

[edit] A photon sphere

A non-rotating black hole's photon sphere is a spherical boundary of zero thickness such that photons moving along tangents to the sphere will be trapped in a circular orbit. For non-rotating black holes, the photon sphere has a radius 1.5 times larger than the radius of the event horizon. No photon is likely to stay in this orbit for long, for two reasons. First, it is likely to interact with any infalling matter in the vicinity (being absorbed or scattered). Second, the orbit is dynamically unstable; small deviations from a perfectly circular path will grow into larger deviations very quickly, causing the photon to either escape or fall into the hole.

Other extremely compact objects such as neutron stars can also have photon spheres.[10] This follows from the fact that light "captured" by a photon sphere does not pass within the radius that would form the event horizon if the object were a black hole of the same mass, and therefore its behavior does not depend on the presence of an event horizon.

[edit] Accretion disk

Space is not a pure vacuum - even interstellar space contains a few atoms of hydrogen per cubic centimeter. The powerful gravity field of a black hole pulls this towards and then into the black hole. The gas nearest the event horizon forms a disk and, at this short range, the black hole's gravity is strong enough to compress the gas to a relatively high density. The pressure, friction and other mechanisms within the disk generate enormous energy - in fact they convert matter to energy more efficiently than the nuclear fusion processes that power stars. As a result, the disk glows very brightly, although disks around black holes radiate mainly X-rays rather than visible light.

Accretion disks are not proof of the presence of black holes, because other massive, ultra-dense objects such as neutron stars and white dwarfs cause accretion disks to form and to behave in the same ways as those around black holes.

[edit] Major features of rotating black holes

Main article: Rotating black hole

Two important surfaces around a rotating black hole. The inner sphere is the static limit (the event horizon). It is the inner boundary of a region called the ergosphere. The oval-shaped surface, touching the event horizon at the poles, is the outer boundary of the ergosphere. Within the ergosphere a particle is forced (dragging of space and time) to rotate and may gain energy at the cost of the rotational energy of the black hole (Penrose process).
Two important surfaces around a rotating black hole. The inner sphere is the static limit (the event horizon). It is the inner boundary of a region called the ergosphere. The oval-shaped surface, touching the event horizon at the poles, is the outer boundary of the ergosphere. Within the ergosphere a particle is forced (dragging of space and time) to rotate and may gain energy at the cost of the rotational energy of the black hole (Penrose process).

Rotating black holes share many of the features of non-rotating black holes - inability of light or anything else to escape from within their event horizons, accretion disks, etc. But general relativity predicts that rapid rotation of a large mass produces further distortions of space-time in addition to those which a non-rotating large mass produces, and these additional effects make rotating black holes strikingly different from non-rotating ones.

[edit] Two event horizons

If two rotating black holes have the same mass but different rotation speeds, the inner event horizon of the faster-spinning black hole will have a larger radius and its outer event horizon will have a smaller radius than in the slower-spinning black hole. In the most extreme case the two event horizons have zero radius, the region hidden by them has zero size and therefore the object is not a black hole but a naked singularity. Many physicists think that some principle which has not yet been discovered prevents the existence of a naked singularity and therefore prevents a black hole from spinning fast enough to create one.

[edit] Two photon spheres

General relativity predicts that a rotating black hole has two photon spheres, one for each event horizon. A beam of light traveling in a direction opposite to the spin of the black hole will circularly orbit the hole at the outer photon sphere. A beam of light traveling in the same direction as the black hole's spin will circularly orbit at the inner photon sphere. This beam will then split itself in two. Both pieces will move into the Hole

[edit] Ergosphere

A large, ultra-dense rotating mass creates an effect called frame-dragging, so that space-time is dragged around it in the direction of the rotation.

Rotating black holes have an ergosphere, a region bounded by:

* on the outside, an oblate spheroid which coincides with the event horizon at the poles and is noticeably wider around the "equator". This boundary is sometimes called the "ergosurface", but it is just a boundary and has no more solidity than the event horizon. At points exactly on the ergosurface, space-time is dragged around at the speed of light.
* on the inside, the outer event horizon.

Within the ergosphere space-time is dragged around faster than light - general relativity forbids material objects to travel faster than light (so does special relativity), but allows regions of space-time to move faster than light relative to other regions of space-time.

Objects and radiation (including light) can stay in orbit within the ergosphere without falling to the center. But they cannot hover (remain stationary as seen by an external observer) because that would require them to move backwards faster than light relative to their own regions of space-time, which are moving faster than light relative to an external observer.

Objects and radiation can also escape from the ergosphere. In fact the Penrose process predicts that objects will sometimes fly out of the ergosphere, obtaining the energy for this by "stealing" some of the black hole's rotational energy. If a large total mass of objects escapes in this way the black hole will spin more slowly and may even stop spinning eventually.

[edit] Ring-shaped singularity

General relativity predicts that a rotating black hole will have a ring singularity which lies in the plane of the "equator" and has zero width and thickness - but remember that quantum mechanics does not allow objects to have zero size in any dimension (their wavefunction must spread), so general relativity's prediction is only the best idea we have until someone devises a theory which combines general relativity and quantum mechanics.

[edit] Possibility of escaping from a rotating black hole
Penrose diagrams of various Schwarzschild solutions. Time is the vertical dimension, space is horizontal, and light travels at 45° angles. Paths less than 45° to the horizontal are forbidden by special relativity, but rotating black holes allow for travel to future "universes"
Penrose diagrams of various Schwarzschild solutions. Time is the vertical dimension, space is horizontal, and light travels at 45° angles. Paths less than 45° to the horizontal are forbidden by special relativity, but rotating black holes allow for travel to future "universes"

Kerr's solution for the equations of general relativity predicts that:

* The properties of space-time between the two event horizons allow objects to move only towards the singularity.
* But the properties of space-time within the inner event horizon allow objects to move away from the singularity, pass through another set of inner and outer event horizons, and emerge out of the black hole into another universe or another part of this universe without traveling faster than the speed of light.
* Passing through the ring shaped singularity may allow entry to a negative gravity universe.[11]

If this is true, rotating black holes could theoretically provide the wormholes which often appear in science fiction. Unfortunately, it is unlikely that the internal properties of a rotating black hole are exactly as described by Kerr's solution[12] and it is not currently known whether the actual properties of a rotating black hole would provide a similar escape route for an object via the inner event horizon.

Even if this escape route is possible, it is unlikely to be useful because a spacecraft which followed that path would probably be distorted beyond recognition by spaghettification.

[edit] What happens when something falls into a black hole?

This section describes what happens when something falls into a non-rotating, uncharged black hole. The effects of rotating and charged black holes are more complicated but the final result is much the same - the falling object is absorbed (unless rotating black holes really can act as wormholes).

[edit] Spaghettification

An object in any very strong gravitational field feels a tidal force stretching it in the direction of the object generating the gravitational field. This is because the inverse square law causes nearer parts of the stretched object to feel a stronger attraction than farther parts. Near black holes, the tidal force is expected to be strong enough to deform any object falling into it; this is called spaghettification.

The strength of the tidal force depends on how gravitational attraction changes with distance, rather than on the absolute force being felt. This means that small black holes cause spaghettification while infalling objects are still outside their event horizons, whereas objects falling into large, supermassive black holes may not be deformed or otherwise feel excessively large forces before passing the event horizon.

[edit] Before the falling object crosses the event horizon

An object in a gravitational field experiences a slowing down of time, called gravitational time dilation, relative to observers outside the field. The observer will see that physical processes in the object, including clocks, appear to run slowly. As a test object approaches the event horizon, its gravitational time dilation (as measured by an observer far from the hole) would approach infinity.

From the viewpoint of a distant observer, an object falling into a black hole appears to slow down, approaching but never quite reaching the event horizon: and it appears to become redder and dimmer, because of the extreme gravitational red shift caused by the gravity of the black hole. Eventually, the falling object becomes so dim that it can no longer be seen, at a point just before it reaches the event horizon. All of this is a consequence of time dilation: the object's movement is one of the processes that appear to run slower and slower, and the time dilation effect is more significant than the acceleration due to gravity; the frequency of light from the object appears to decrease, making it look redder, because the light appears to complete fewer cycles per "tick" of the observer's clock; lower-frequency light has less energy and therefore appears dimmer.

From the viewpoint of the falling object, distant objects may appear either blue-shifted or red-shifted, depending on the falling object's trajectory. Light is blue-shifted by the gravity of the black hole, but is red-shifted by the velocity of the infalling object.

[edit] As the object passes through the event horizon

From the viewpoint of the falling object, nothing particularly special happens at the event horizon (apart from spaghettification due to tidal forces, if the black hole has relatively low mass). A falling observer would measure a non-infinite amount of time (in their reference frame) needed to fall past the point where the event horizon is supposed to be.

An outside observer, however, will never see an infalling object cross this line. The object appears to halt just above the horizon, due to gravitational time dilation, fading from view as its light is red-shifted and the rate at which it emits photons drops to approach zero. This doesn't mean that the object never crosses the horizon; instead, it means that light from the horizon-crossing event is delayed by a time that approaches infinity as the object approaches the horizon. The time of crossing depends on how the outside observer chooses to define space and time axes on spacetime near the horizon.

In practice, additional effects are expected to occur as an object approaches the event horizon of a black hole. Hawking radiation is expected to grow brighter, approaching the Planck temperature as an infalling object approaches to within the Planck length of the horizon.[citation needed] Both relativistic and quantum mechanical effects may present a backwards pressure that approaches infinite strength near the horizon, making the fate of infalling objects unclear. This type of back-pressure may cause the region near or within the event horizon to be at very high temperature.[13] As of 2007, there is no scientific consensus about what happens as objects fall into black holes, beyond the fact that it's expected to differ from the picture described by general relativity.

[edit] Inside the event horizon

The object reaches the singularity at the center within a finite amount of proper time, as measured by the falling object. An observer on the falling object would continue to see objects outside the event horizon, blue-shifted or red-shifted depending on the falling object's trajectory. Objects closer to the singularity aren't seen, as all paths light could take from objects farther in point inwards towards the singularity.

The amount of proper time a faller experiences below the event horizon depends upon where they started from rest, with the maximum being for someone who starts from rest at the event horizon. A study in 2007 examined the effect of firing a rocket pack with the black hole, showing that this can only reduce the proper time of a person who starts from rest at the event horizon. However, for anyone else, a judical burst of the rocket can extend the life time of the faller, but over doing it will again reduce the proper time experienced. However, this cannot prevent the inevitable collision with the central singularity.[14]

[edit] Hitting the singularity

As an infalling object approaches the singularity, tidal forces acting on it approach infinity. All components of the object, including atoms and subatomic particles, are torn away from each other before striking the singularity. At the singularity itself, effects are unknown; a theory of quantum gravity is needed to accurately describe events near it. Regardless, as soon as an object passes within the hole's event horizon, it is lost to the outside world. An observer far from the hole simply sees the hole's mass, charge, and angular momentum change to reflect the addition of the new object's matter.

[edit] Formation and evaporation

[edit] Formation of stellar-mass black holes

Stellar-mass black holes are formed in two ways:

* As a direct result of the gravitational collapse of a star.
* By collisions between neutron stars.[15] Although neutron stars are fairly common, collisions appear to be very rare. Neutron stars are also formed by gravitational collapse, which is therefore ultimately responsible for all stellar-mass black holes.

Stars undergo gravitational collapse when they can no longer resist the pressure of their own gravity. This usually occurs either because a star has too little "fuel" left to maintain its temperature, or because a star which would have been stable receives a lot of extra matter in a way which does not raise its core temperature. In either case the star's temperature is no longer high enough to prevent it from collapsing under its own weight (Charles's law explains the connection between temperature and volume).

The collapse transforms the matter in the star's core into a denser state which forms one of the types of compact star. Which type of compact star is formed depends on the mass of the remnant, i.e. of the matter left to be compressed after the supernova (if one happened - see below) triggered by the collapse has blown away the outer layers.

Only the largest remnants, those exceeding 5 solar masses, generate enough pressure to produce black holes, because singularities are the most radically transformed state of matter known to physics (if you can still call it matter) and the force which resists this level of compression, neutron degeneracy pressure, is extremely strong. Remnants exceeding 5 solar masses are produced by stars which were over 20 solar masses before the collapse (the rest of the mass is usually blown into space by the supernova triggered by the collapse).

In stars which are too large to form white dwarfs, the collapse releases energy which usually produces a supernova, blowing the star's outer layers into space so that they form a spectacular nebula. But the supernova is a side-effect and does not directly contribute to producing a compact star. For example a few gamma ray bursts were expected to be followed by evidence of supernovae but this evidence did not appear,[16][17] and one explanation is that some very large stars can form black holes fast enough to swallow the whole star before the supernova blast can reach the surface.

[edit] Formation of larger black holes

There are two main ways in which black holes of larger than stellar mass can be formed:

* Stellar-mass black holes may act as "seeds" which grow by absorbing mass from interstellar gas and dust, stars and planets or smaller black holes.
* Star clusters of large total mass may be merged into single bodies by their members' gravitational attraction. This will usually produce a supergiant or hypergiant star which runs short of "fuel" in a few million years and then undergoes gravitational collapse, produces a supernova or hypernova and spends the rest of its existence as a black hole.

[edit] Formation of smaller black holes

No known process currently active in the universe can form black holes of less than stellar mass. This is because all present black hole formation is through gravitational collapse, and the smallest mass which can collapse to form a black hole produces a hole approximately 1.5-3.0 times the mass of the sun (the Tolman-Oppenheimer-Volkoff limit). Smaller masses collapse to form white dwarf stars or neutron stars.

There are still a few ways in which smaller black holes might be formed, or might have formed in the past:

* By evaporation of larger black holes. If the initial mass of the hole was stellar mass, the time required for it to lose most of its mass via Hawking evaporation is much longer than the age of the universe, so small black holes are not expected to have formed by this method yet.
* By the Big Bang, which produced sufficient pressure to form smaller black holes without the need for anything resembling a star. None of these hypothesized primordial black holes have been detected.
* By very powerful particle accelerators. In principle, a sufficiently energetic collision within a particle accelerator could produce a micro black hole. In practice, this is expected to require energies comparable to the Planck energy, which is vastly beyond the capability of any present, planned, or expected future particle accelerator to produce. Some variant models of the unification of the four fundamental forces allow the formation of black holes at much lower energies. This would allow production of extremely short-lived black holes in terrestrial particle accelerators. No conclusive evidence of this type of black hole production has been presented as of 2007.

[edit] Evaporation

Hawking radiation is a theoretical process by which black holes can evaporate into nothing. As there is no experimental evidence to corroborate it and there are still some major questions about the theoretical basis of the process, there is still debate about whether Hawking radiation can enable black holes to evaporate.

Quantum mechanics says that even the purest vacuum is not completely empty but is instead a "sea" of energy which has wave-like fluctuations. We cannot observe this "sea" of energy directly because there is no lower energy level with which we can compare it. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle also dictates that it is impossible to know the exact value of anything. This is more relevant when dealing with small values. The fluctuations in this sea produce pairs of particles in which one is made of normal matter and the other is the corresponding antiparticle (special relativity proves mass-energy equivalence, i.e. that mass can be converted into energy and vice versa). Normally each would soon meet another instance of its antiparticle and the two would be totally converted into energy, restoring the overall matter-energy balance as it was before the pair of particles was created. The Hawking radiation theory suggests that, if such a pair of particles is created just outside the event horizon of a black hole, one of the two particles may fall into the black hole while the other escapes, because the two particles move in slightly different directions after their creation. From the point of view of an outside observer, the black hole has just emitted a particle and therefore the black hole has lost a minute amount of its mass.

If the Hawking radiation theory is correct, only the very smallest black holes are likely to evaporate in this way. For example a black hole with the mass of our Moon would gain as much energy (and therefore mass - mass-energy equivalence again) from cosmic microwave background radiation as it emits by Hawking radiation, and larger black holes will gain more energy (and mass) than they emit. To put this in perspective, the smallest black hole which can be created naturally at present is about 5 times the mass of our sun, so most black holes have much greater mass than our Moon.

Over time the cosmic microwave background radiation becomes weaker. Eventually it will be weak enough so that more Hawking radiation will be emitted than the energy of the background radiation being absorbed by the black hole. Through this process, even the largest black holes will eventually evaporate. However, this process may take nearly a googol years to complete.

[edit] Techniques for finding black holes

[edit] Accretion disks and gas jets
Formation of extragalactic jets from a black hole's accretion disk
Formation of extragalactic jets from a black hole's accretion disk

Most accretion disks and gas jets are not clear proof that a stellar-mass black hole is present, because other massive, ultra-dense objects such as neutron stars and white dwarfs cause accretion disks and gas jets to form and to behave in the same ways as those round black holes. But they can often help by telling astronomers where it might be worth looking for a black hole.

On the other hand, extremely large accretion disks and gas jets may be good evidence for the presence of supermassive black holes, because as far as we know any mass large enough to power these phenomena must be a black hole.

[edit] Strong radiation emissions

Steady X-ray and gamma ray emissions also do not prove that a black hole is present but can tell astronomers where it might be worth looking for one - and they have the advantage that they pass fairly easily through nebulae and gas clouds.

But strong, irregular emissions of X-rays, gamma rays and other electromagnetic radiation can help to prove that a massive, ultra-dense object is not a black hole, so that "black hole hunters" can move on to some other object. Neutron stars and other very dense stars have surfaces, and matter colliding with the surface at a high percentage of the speed of light will produce intense flares of radiation at irregular intervals. Black holes have no material surface, so the absence of irregular flares round a massive, ultra-dense object suggests that there is a good chance of finding a black hole there.

Intense but one-time gamma ray bursts (GRBs) may signal the birth of "new" black holes, because astrophysicists think that GRBs are caused either by the gravitational collapse of giant stars[18] or by collisions between neutron stars,[19] and both types of event involve sufficient mass and pressure to produce black holes. But it appears that a collision between a neutron star and a black hole can also cause a GRB,[20] so a GRB is not proof that a "new" black hole has been formed. All known GRBs come from outside our own galaxy, and most come from billions of light years away[21] so the black holes associated with them are actually billions of years old.

Some astrophysicists believe that some ultraluminous X-ray sources may be the accretion disks of intermediate-mass black holes.[22]

Quasars are thought to be caused by the accretion disks of supermassive black holes, since we know of nothing else which is powerful enough to produce such strong emissions. While X-rays and gamma rays have much higher frequencies and shorter wavelengths than visible light, quasars radiate mainly radio waves, which have lower frequencies and longer wavelengths than visible light.

[edit] Gravitational lensing
Gravitational lensing distorts the image around a black hole in front of the Large Magellanic Cloud (artistic interpretation)
Gravitational lensing distorts the image around a black hole in front of the Large Magellanic Cloud (artistic interpretation)

Gravitational lensing is another phenomenon which can have other causes besides the presence of a black hole, because any very strong gravitational field bends light rays. The most spectacular examples produce multiple images of very distant objects by bending towards our telescopes light rays which would otherwise have gone in different directions. But these multiple-image effects are probably produced by distant galaxies.

[edit] Objects orbiting possible black holes

Some large celestial objects are almost certainly orbiting around black holes, and the principles behind this conclusion are surprisingly simple if we consider a circular orbit first (although all known astronomical orbits are elliptical):

* The radius of the central object round which the observed object is orbiting must be less than the radius of the orbit, otherwise the two objects would collide.
* The orbital period and the radius of the orbit make it easy to calculate the centrifugal force created by the orbiting object. Strictly speaking the centrifugal force also depends on the orbiting object's mass, but the next two steps show why we can get away with pretending this is a fixed number, e.g. 1.
* The gravitational attraction between the central object and the orbiting object must be exactly equal to the centrifugal force, otherwise the orbiting body would either spiral into the central object or drift away.
* The required gravitational attraction depends on the mass of the central object, the mass of the orbiting object and the radius of the orbit. But we can simplify the calculation of both the centrifugal force and the gravitational attraction by pretending that the mass of the orbiting object is the same fixed number, e.g. 1. This makes it very easy to calculate the mass of the central object.
* If the Schwarzschild radius for a body with the mass of the central object is greater than the maximum radius of the central object, the central object must be a black hole whose event horizon's radius is equal to the Schwarzschild radius.

Unfortunately in real astronomy there are some complications, but astronomers have been dealing with them for centuries (since the time of Kepler):

* Astronomical orbits are elliptical. This complicates the calculation of the centrifugal force, the gravitational attraction and the maximum radius of the central body. But Kepler could handle this without needing a computer.
* The orbital periods in this type of situation are several years, so several years' worth of observations are needed to determine the actual orbit accurately. The "possibly a black hole" indicators (accretion disks, gas jets, radiation emissions, etc.) help "black hole hunters" to decide which orbits are worth observing for such long periods.
* If there are other large bodies within a few light years, their gravity fields will perturb the orbit. Adjusting the calculations to filter out the effects of perturbation can be difficult, but astronomers are used to doing it.

[edit] Black hole candidates

Although black holes cannot be detected directly, many observational studies have provided substantial evidence for black holes. Black holes may be divided into three classes of objects:

* Stellar mass black holes have masses that are equivalent to the masses of individual stars (4–15 times the mass of our Sun).
* Intermediate-mass black hole have masses that are a few hundred to a few thousand times the mass of the Sun.
* Supermassive black holes have masses ranging from on the order of 105 to 1010 times the mass of the Sun.[23]

Further details are given below.

[edit] Supermassive black holes at the centers of galaxies
The jet originating from the center of M87 in this image comes from an active galactic nucleus that may contain a supermassive black hole. Credit: Hubble Space Telescope/NASA/ESA.
The jet originating from the center of M87 in this image comes from an active galactic nucleus that may contain a supermassive black hole. Credit: Hubble Space Telescope/NASA/ESA.

For decades, astronomers have used the term "active galaxy" to describe galaxies with unusual characteristics, such as unusual spectral line emission and very strong radio emission.[24][25] However, theoretical and observational studies have shown that the active galactic nuclei (AGN) in these galaxies may contain supermassive black holes.[24][25] The models of these AGN consist of a central black hole that may be millions or billions of times more massive than the Sun; a disk of gas and dust called an accretion disk; and two jets that are perpendicular to the accretion disk.[25]

Although supermassive black holes are expected to be found in most AGN, only some galaxies' nuclei have been more carefully studied in attempts to both identify and measure the actual masses of the central supermassive black hole candidates. Some of the most notable galaxies with supermassive black hole candidates include the Andromeda Galaxy, M32, M87, NGC 3115, NGC 3377, NGC 4258, and the Sombrero Galaxy.[23]

Astronomers are confident that our own Milky Way galaxy has a supermassive black hole at its center, in a region called Sagittarius A*:

* A star called S2 (star) follows an elliptical orbit with a period of 15.2 years and a pericenter (closest) distance of 17 light hours from the central object.
* The first estimates indicated that the central object contains 2.6M (2.6 million) solar masses and has a radius of less than 17 light hours. Only a black hole can contain such a vast mass in such a small volume.
* Further observations[26] strengthened the case for a black hole by showing that the central object's mass is about 3.7M solar masses and its radius no more than 6.25 light-hours.

[edit] Intermediate-mass black holes in globular clusters

In 2002, the Hubble Space Telescope produced observations indicating that globular clusters named M15 and G1 may contain intermediate-mass black holes. This interpretation is based on the sizes and periods of the orbits of the stars in the globular clusters. But the Hubble evidence is not conclusive, since a group of neutron stars could cause similar observations. Until recent discoveries, many astronomers thought that the complex gravitational interactions in globular clusters would eject newly-formed black holes.

In November 2004 a team of astronomers reported the discovery of the first well-confirmed intermediate-mass black hole in our Galaxy, orbiting three light-years from Sagittarius A*. This black hole of 1,300 solar masses is within a cluster of seven stars, possibly the remnant of a massive star cluster that has been stripped down by the Galactic Centre.[27][28] This observation may add support to the idea that supermassive black holes grow by absorbing nearby smaller black holes and stars.

In January 2007, researchers at the University of Southampton in the United Kingdom reported finding a black hole, possibly of about 400 solar masses, in a globular cluster associated with a galaxy named NGC 4472, some 55 million light-years away.[29]

[edit] Stellar-mass black holes in the Milky Way
Artist's impression of a binary system consisting of a black hole and a main sequence ("normal") star. The black hole is drawing matter from the main sequence star via an accretion disk around it, and some of this matter forms a gas jet.
Artist's impression of a binary system consisting of a black hole and a main sequence ("normal") star. The black hole is drawing matter from the main sequence star via an accretion disk around it, and some of this matter forms a gas jet.

Our Milky Way galaxy contains several probable stellar-mass black holes which are closer to us than the supermassive black hole in the Sagittarius A* region. These candidates are all members of X-ray binary systems in which the denser object draws matter from its partner via an accretion disk. The probable black holes in these pairs range from three to more than a dozen solar masses.[30][31]

[edit] Micro black holes

The formation of micro black holes on Earth in particle accelerators has been tentatively reported,[32] but not yet confirmed. So far there are no observed candidates for primordial black holes.

[edit] History of the black hole concept

The Newtonian conceptions of Michell and Laplace are often referred to as "dark stars" to distinguish them from the "black holes" of general relativity.

[edit] Newtonian theories (before Einstein)

The concept of a body so massive that even light could not escape was put forward by the geologist John Michell in a 1784 paper sent to Henry Cavendish and published by the Royal Society.[33]
“ If the semi-diameter of a sphere of the same density as the Sun were to exceed that of the Sun in the proportion of 500 to 1, a body falling from an infinite height towards it would have acquired at its surface greater velocity than that of light, and consequently supposing light to be attracted by the same force in proportion to its vis inertiae, with other bodies, all light emitted from such a body would be made to return towards it by its own proper gravity. ”

Michell's analysis is based on the concept of escape velocity, which can be deduced from Newton's Law of Gravitation. But Newton's Law of Gravitation assumes a pair of masses, not a single mass. So any analysis based on escape velocity assumes that photons have a non-zero rest mass (vis inertiae in the quote from Michell), but we now know that this is not true. The concept of escape velocity also allows an object to rise for an indefinite distance before falling back, and therefore does not predict event horizons around black holes.

In 1796, the mathematician Pierre-Simon Laplace promoted the same idea in the first and second editions of his book Exposition du système du Monde (it was removed from later editions).

The idea of black holes was largely ignored in the nineteenth century, since light was then thought to be a massless wave and therefore not influenced by gravity.

Note: before quantum mechanics was developed, physicists had been perplexed since about 1600 by the problem of wave-particle duality - some thought of light as a stream of particles, others thought of it as a series of waves, and the two different views went in and out of fashion alternately.

[edit] Theories based on Einstein's general relativity

In 1915, Albert Einstein developed the theory of gravity called general relativity, having earlier shown that gravity does influence light (although light has zero rest mass, its path follows any curvature of space-time, and gravity is curvature of space-time). A few months later, Karl Schwarzschild gave the solution for the gravitational field of a point mass and a spherical mass,[34][35] showing that a black hole could theoretically exist. The Schwarzschild radius is now known to be the radius of the event horizon of a non-rotating black hole, but this was not well understood at that time, for example Schwarzschild himself thought it was not physical. Johannes Droste, a student of Lorentz, independently gave the same solution for the point mass a few months after Schwarzschild and wrote more extensively about its properties.

In 1930, the astrophysicist Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar argued that, according to special relativity, a non-radiating body above 1.44 solar masses (the Chandrasekhar limit), would collapse since there was nothing known at that time could stop it from doing so. His arguments were opposed by Arthur Eddington, who believed that something would inevitably stop the collapse. Eddington was partly right: a white dwarf slightly more massive than the Chandrasekhar limit will collapse into a neutron star. But in 1939, Robert Oppenheimer published papers (with various co-authors) which predicted that stars above about three solar masses (the Tolman-Oppenheimer-Volkoff limit) would collapse into black holes for the reasons presented by Chandrasekhar.[36]

Oppenheimer and his co-authors used Schwarzschild's system of coordinates (the only coordinates available in 1939), which produced mathematical singularities at the Schwarzschild radius, in other words the equations broke down at the Schwarzschild radius because some of the terms were infinite. This was interpreted as indicating that the Schwarzschild radius was the boundary of a "bubble" in which time "stopped". For a few years the collapsed stars were known as "frozen stars" because the calculations indicated that an outside observer would see the surface of the star frozen in time at the instant where its collapse takes it inside the Schwarzschild radius. But many physicists could not accept the idea of time standing still inside the Schwarzschild radius, and there was little interest in the subject for over 20 years.

In 1958 David Finkelstein broke the deadlock over "stopped time" and introduced the concept of the event horizon by presenting the Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates, which enabled him to show that "The Schwarzschild surface r = 2m is not a singularity but acts as a perfect unidirectional membrane: causal influences can cross it but only in one direction".[37] Note that at this stage all theories, including Finkelstein's, covered only non-rotating, uncharged black holes.

In 1963 Roy Kerr extended Finkelstein's analysis by presenting the Kerr metric (coordinates) and showing how this made it possible to predict the properties of rotating black holes.[38] In addition to its theoretical interest, Kerr's work made black holes more believable for astronomers, since black holes are formed from stars and all known stars rotate.

In 1967 astronomers discovered pulsars, and within a few years could show that the known pulsars were rapidly rotating neutron stars. Until that time, neutron stars were also regarded as just theoretical curiosities. So the discovery of pulsars awakened interest in all types of ultra-dense objects that might be formed by gravitational collapse.

In December 1967 the theoretical physicist John Wheeler coined the expression "black hole" in his public lecture Our Universe: the Known and Unknown, and this mysterious, slightly menacing phrase attracted more attention than the static-sounding "frozen star".

In 1970, Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose proved that black holes are a feature of all solutions to Einstein's equations of gravity, not just of Schwarzschild's, and therefore black holes cannot be avoided in some collapsing objects.[39]

[edit] Black holes and Earth

Black holes are sometimes listed among the most serious potential threats to Earth and humanity,[40][41] on the grounds that:

* A naturally-produced black hole could pass through our Solar System.
* A large particle accelerator might produce a micro black hole, and if this escaped it could gradually eat the whole of the Earth.

[edit] Black hole wandering through our solar system

Stellar-mass black holes travel through the Milky Way just like stars. Consequently, they may collide with the Solar System or another planetary system in the galaxy, although the probability of this happening is very small. Significant gravitational interactions between the Sun and any other star in the Milky Way (including a black hole) are expected to occur approximately once every 1019 years.[42] For comparison, the Sun has an age of only 5 × 109 years, and is expected to become a red giant about 5 × 109 years from now, incinerating the surface of the Earth.[25] Hence it is extremely unlikely that a black hole will pass through the Solar System before the Sun exterminates life on Earth.

[edit] Micro black hole escaping from a particle accelerator

There is a theoretical possibility that a micro black hole might be created inside a particle accelerator.[43] Formation of black holes under these conditions (below the Planck energy) requires non-standard assumptions, such as large extra dimensions.

However, many particle collisions that naturally occur as the cosmic rays hit the edge of our atmosphere are often far more energetic than any collisions created by man. If micro black holes can be created by current or next-generation particle accelerators, they have probably been created by cosmic rays every day throughout most of Earth's history, i.e. for billions of years, evidently without earth-destroying effects.

Even if, say, two protons at the Large Hadron Collider could merge to create a micro black hole, this black hole would be extremely unstable, and it would evaporate due to Hawking radiation before it had a chance to propagate. For a 14 TeV black hole (the center-of-mass energy at the Large Hadron Collider), direct computation of its lifetime by the Hawking radiation formula indicates that it would evaporate in 10-100 seconds.

CERN conducted a study assessing the risk of producing dangerous objects such as black holes at the Large Hadron Collider, and concluded that there is "no basis for any conceivable threat."[44]

[edit] Alternative models

Several alternative models, which behave like a black hole but avoid the singularity, have been proposed. However, most researchers judge these concepts artificial, as they are more complicated but do not give near term observable differences from black holes (see Occam's razor). The most prominent alternative theory is the Gravastar.

In March 2005, physicist George Chapline at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California proposed that black holes do not exist, and that objects currently thought to be black holes are actually dark-energy stars. He draws this conclusion from some quantum mechanical analyses. Although his proposal currently has little support in the physics community, it was widely reported by the media.[45][46]

Among the alternate models are magnetospheric eternally collapsing objects, clusters of elementary particles[47] (e.g., boson stars[48]), fermion balls,[49] self-gravitating, degenerate heavy neutrinos[50] and even clusters of very low mass (~0.04 solar mass) black holes.[47]

[edit] More advanced topics

[edit] Entropy and Hawking radiation

In 1971, Stephen Hawking showed that the total area of the event horizons of any collection of classical black holes can never decrease, even if they collide and swallow each other[51]. This sounded remarkably similar to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, with area playing the role of entropy. As a classical object with zero temperature it was assumed that black holes had zero entropy; one could violate the second law of thermodynamics by entropy laden material entering a black hole, resulting in a decrease of the total entropy of the universe. Therefore, Jacob Bekenstein proposed that a black hole should have an entropy and that it should be proportional to its horizon area. Since black holes do not classically emit radiation, the thermodynamic viewpoint was simply an analogy, since zero temperature implies zero disorder implies zero entropy. However, in 1974, Hawking applied quantum field theory to the curved spacetime around the event horizon and discovered that black holes emit Hawking radiation, a form of thermal radiation, allied to the Unruh effect. This led to analogies being drawn between black hole dynamics and thermodynamics: using the first law of black hole mechanics, it follows that the entropy of a non-rotating black hole is one quarter of the area of the horizon. This is a universal result and can be extended to apply to cosmological horizons such as in de Sitter space. It was later suggested that black holes are maximum-entropy objects, meaning that the maximum possible entropy of a region of space is the entropy of the largest black hole that can fit into it. This led to the holographic principle.

The Hawking radiation reflects a characteristic temperature of the black hole, which can be calculated from its entropy. This temperature in fact falls the more massive a black hole becomes: the more energy a black hole absorbs, the colder it gets. A black hole with roughly the mass of the planet Mercury would have a temperature in equilibrium with the cosmic microwave background radiation (about 2.73 K). More massive than this, a black hole will be colder than the background radiation, and it will gain energy from the background faster than it gives energy up through Hawking radiation, becoming even colder still. However, for a less massive black hole the effect implies that the mass of the black hole will slowly evaporate with time, with the black hole becoming hotter and hotter as it does so. Although these effects are negligible for black holes massive enough to have been formed astronomically, they would rapidly become significant for hypothetical smaller black holes, where quantum-mechanical effects dominate. Indeed, small black holes are predicted to undergo runaway evaporation and eventually vanish in a burst of radiation.
If ultra-high-energy collisions of particles in a particle accelerator can create microscopic black holes, it is expected that all types of particles will be emitted by black hole evaporation, providing key evidence for any grand unified theory. Above are the high energy particles produced in a gold ion collision on the RHIC.
If ultra-high-energy collisions of particles in a particle accelerator can create microscopic black holes, it is expected that all types of particles will be emitted by black hole evaporation, providing key evidence for any grand unified theory. Above are the high energy particles produced in a gold ion collision on the RHIC.

Although general relativity can be used to perform a semi-classical calculation of black hole entropy, this situation is theoretically unsatisfying. In statistical mechanics, entropy is understood as counting the number of microscopic configurations of a system which have the same macroscopic qualities(such as mass, charge, pressure, etc.). But without a satisfactory theory of quantum gravity, one cannot perform such a computation for black holes. Some promise has been shown by string theory, however. There one posits that the microscopic degrees of freedom of the black hole are D-branes. By counting the states of D-branes with given charges and energy, the entropy for certain supersymmetric black holes has been reproduced. Extending the region of validity of these calculations is an ongoing area of research.

[edit] Black hole unitarity

An open question in fundamental physics is the so-called information loss paradox, or black hole unitarity paradox. Classically, the laws of physics are the same run forward or in reverse. That is, if the position and velocity of every particle in the universe were measured, we could (disregarding chaos) work backwards to discover the history of the universe arbitrarily far in the past. In quantum mechanics, this corresponds to a vital property called unitarity which has to do with the conservation of probability.

Black holes, however, might violate this rule. The position under classical general relativity is subtle but straightforward: because of the classical no hair theorem, we can never determine what went into the black hole. However, as seen from the outside, information is never actually destroyed, as matter falling into the black hole appears from the outside to become more and more red-shifted as it approaches (but never ultimately appears to reach) the event horizon.

Ideas of quantum gravity, on the other hand, suggest that there can only be a limited finite entropy (ie a maximum finite amount of information) associated with the space near the horizon; but the change in the entropy of the horizon plus the entropy of the Hawking radiation is always sufficient to take up all of the entropy of matter and energy falling into the black hole.

Many physicists are concerned however that this is still not sufficiently well understood. In particular, at a quantum level, is the quantum state of the Hawking radiation uniquely determined by the history of what has fallen into the black hole; and is the history of what has fallen into the black hole uniquely determined by the quantum state of the black hole and the radiation? This is what determinism, and unitarity, would require.

For a long time Stephen Hawking had opposed such ideas, holding to his original 1975 position that the Hawking radiation is entirely thermal and therefore entirely random, containing none of the information held in material the hole has swallowed in the past; this information he reasoned had been lost. However, on 21 July 2004 he presented a new argument, reversing his previous position.[52] On this new calculation, the entropy (and hence information) associated with the black hole escapes in the Hawking radiation itself, although making sense of it, even in principle, is still difficult until the black hole completes its evaporation; until then it is impossible to relate in a 1:1 way the information in the Hawking radiation (embodied in its detailed internal correlations) to the initial state of the system. Once the black hole evaporates completely, then such an identification can be made, and unitarity is preserved. It is not clear how far even the specialist scientific community is yet persuaded by the mathematical machinery Hawking has used (indeed many regard all work on quantum gravity so far as highly speculative); but Hawking himself found it sufficiently convincing to pay out on a bet he had made in 1997 with Caltech physicist John Preskill, to considerable media interest.

[edit] Mathematical theory
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Further information: Schwarzschild metric and Deriving the Schwarzschild solution

Black holes are predictions of Albert Einstein's theory of general relativity. There are many known solutions to the Einstein field equations which describe black holes, and they are also thought to be an inevitable part of the evolution of any star of a certain size. In particular, they occur in the Schwarzschild metric, one of the earliest and simplest solutions to Einstein's equations, found by Karl Schwarzschild in 1915. This solution describes the curvature of spacetime in the vicinity of a static and spherically symmetric object, where the metric is,

\mathrm{d}s^2 = - c^2 \left( 1 - {2Gm \over c^2 r} \right) \mathrm{d}t^2 + \left( 1 - {2Gm \over c^2 r} \right)^{-1} \mathrm{d}r^2 + r^2 \mathrm{d}\Omega^2,

where \mathrm{d}\Omega^2 = \mathrm{d}\theta^2 + \sin^2\theta\; \mathrm{d}\phi^2 is a standard element of solid angle.

According to general relativity, a gravitating object will collapse into a black hole if its radius is smaller than a characteristic distance, known as the Schwarzschild radius. (Indeed, Buchdahl's theorem in general relativity shows that in the case of a perfect fluid model of a compact object, the true lower limit is somewhat larger than the Schwarzschild radius.) Below this radius, spacetime is so strongly curved that any light ray emitted in this region, regardless of the direction in which it is emitted, will travel towards the centre of the system. Because relativity forbids anything from traveling faster than light, anything below the Schwarzschild radius – including the constituent particles of the gravitating object – will collapse into the centre. A gravitational singularity, a region of theoretically infinite density, forms at this point. Because not even light can escape from within the Schwarzschild radius, a classical black hole would truly appear black.

The Schwarzschild radius is given by

r_{\rm S} = {2\,Gm \over c^2}

where G is the gravitational constant, m is the mass of the object, and c is the speed of light. For an object with the mass of the Earth, the Schwarzschild radius is a mere 9 millimeters — about the size of a marble.

The mean density inside the Schwarzschild radius decreases as the mass of the black hole increases, so while an earth-mass black hole would have a density of 2 × 1030 kg/m3, a supermassive black hole of 109 solar masses has a density of around 20 kg/m3, less than water! The mean density is given by

\rho=\frac{3\,c^6}{32\pi m^2G^3}

Since the Earth has a mean radius of 6371 km, its volume would have to be reduced 4 × 1026 times to collapse into a black hole. For an object with the mass of the Sun, the Schwarzschild radius is approximately 3 km, much smaller than the Sun's current radius of about 696,000 km. It is also significantly smaller than the radius to which the Sun will ultimately shrink after exhausting its nuclear fuel, which is several thousand kilometers. More massive stars can collapse into black holes at the end of their lifetimes.

The formula also implies that any object with a given mean density is a black hole if its radius is large enough. The same formula applies for white holes as well. For example, if the observable universe has a mean density equal to the critical density, then it is a white hole, since its singularity is in the past and not in the future as should be for a black hole.

More general black holes are also predicted by other solutions to Einstein's equations, such as the Kerr metric for a rotating black hole, which possesses a ring singularity. Then we have the Reissner-Nordström metric for charged black holes. Last the Kerr-Newman metric is for the case of a charged and rotating black hole.

There is also the Black Hole Entropy formula:

S = \frac{Akc^3}{4\hbar G}

Where A is the area of the event horizon of the black hole, \hbar is Dirac's constant (the "reduced Planck constant"), k is the Boltzmann constant, G is the gravitational constant, c is the speed of light and S is the entropy.

A convenient length scale to measure black hole processes is the "gravitational radius", which is equal to

r_{\rm G} = {Gm \over c^2}

When expressed in terms of this length scale, many phenomena appear at integer radii. For example, the radius of a Schwarzschild black hole is two gravitational radii and the radius of a maximally rotating Kerr black hole is one gravitational radius. The location of the light circularization radius around a Schwarzschild black hole (where light may orbit the hole in an unstable circular orbit) is 3rG. The location of the marginally stable orbit, thought to be close to the inner edge of an accretion disk, is at 6rG for a Schwarzschild black hole.

[edit] References

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29. ^ Black hole found in ancient lair. Retrieved on 2007-01-07.
30. ^ J. Casares: Observational evidence for stellar mass black holes. Preprint
31. ^ M.R. Garcia et al.: Resolved Jets and Long Period Black Hole Novae. Preprint
32. ^ Lab fireball 'may be black hole'. BBC News (17 March 2005). Retrieved on 2006-03-25.
33. ^ J. Michell, Phil. Trans. Roy. Soc., 74 (1784) 35-57.
34. ^ K. Schwarzschild, Sitzungsber.Preuss.Akad.Wiss.Berlin (Math.Phys.), (1916) 189-196
35. ^ K. Schwarzschild, Sitzungsber.Preuss.Akad.Wiss.Berlin (Math.Phys.), (1916) 424-434
36. ^ On Massive Neutron Cores, J. R. Oppenheimer and G. M. Volkoff, Physical Review 55, #374 (February 15, 1939), pp. 374–381.
37. ^ D. Finkelstein (1958). "Past-Future Asymmetry of the Gravitational Field of a Point Particle". Phys. Rev. 110: 965–967.
38. ^ R. P. Kerr, "Gravitational field of a spinning mass as an example of algebraically special metrics", Phys. Rev. Lett. 11, 237 (1963)
39. ^ The Singularities of Gravitational Collapse and Cosmology. S. W. Hawking, R. Penrose, Proceedings of the Royal Society of London. Series A, Mathematical and Physical Sciences, Vol. 314, No. 1519 (27 January 1970), pp. 529–548
40. ^ What a way to go. Guardian UK.
41. ^ Big Bang Machine could destroy Earth. Sunday Times.
42. ^ J. Binney, S. Tremaine (1987). Galactic Dynamics. Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press. ISBN 0-691-08445-9.
43. ^ To the Higgs Particle and Beyond: U.Va. Physicists are Part of an International Team Searching for the Last Undiscovered Aspect of the Standard Model of Physics Brad Cox, 8 November 2006. Retrieved 7 January 2007.
44. ^ http://doc.cern.ch/yellowrep/2003/2003-001/p1.pdf
45. ^ Black holes 'do not exist'. [email protected]. Retrieved on 2006-03-25.
46. ^ Chapline, G.. Dark Energy Stars. Retrieved on 2006-03-25.
47. ^ a b Maoz, Eyal (20 February 1998). "Dynamical Constraints On Alternatives To Supermassive Black Holes In Galactic Nuclei". The Astrophysical Journal 494: L181–L184.
48. ^ Torres, Diego F.; S. Capozziello, G. Lambiase (2000). A supermassive boson star at the galactic center?. Retrieved on 2006-03-25.
49. ^ Munyaneza, F.; R.D. Viollier (2001). The motion of stars near the Galactic center: A comparison of the black hole and fermion ball scenarios. Retrieved on 2006-03-25.
50. ^ Tsiklauri, David; Raoul D. Viollier (1998). Dark matter concentration in the galactic center. Retrieved on 2006-03-25.
51. ^ Stephen Hawking A Brief History of Time, 1998, ISBN 0-553-38016-8
52. ^ Hawking changes his mind about black holes. [email protected]. Retrieved on 2006-03-25.

[edit] Further reading

[edit] Popular reading

* Ferguson, Kitty (1991). Black Holes in Space-Time. Watts Franklin. ISBN 0-531-12524-6.
* Hawking, Stephen (1998). A Brief History of Time. Bantam Books, Inc. ISBN 0-553-38016-8.
* Melia, Fulvio (2003). The Black Hole at the Center of Our Galaxy. Princeton U Press. ISBN 978-0-691-09505-9.
* Melia, Fulvio (2003). The Edge of Infinity. Supermassive Black Holes in the Universe. Cambridge U Press. ISBN 978-0-521-81405-8.
* Pickover, Clifford (1998). Black Holes: A Traveler's Guide. Wiley, John & Sons, Inc. ISBN 0-471-19704-1.
* Thorne, Kip S. (1994). Black Holes and Time Warps. Norton, W. W. & Company, Inc. ISBN 0-393-31276-3.

[edit] University textbooks and monographs

* Carter, B. (1973). Black hole equilibrium states, in Black Holes, eds. DeWitt B. S. and DeWitt C.
* Chandrasekhar, Subrahmanyan (1999). Mathematical Theory of Black Holes. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-850370-9.
* Frolov, V. P. and Novikov, I. D. (1998), Black hole physics.
* Hawking, S. W. and Ellis, G. F. R. (1973), The large-scale structure of space-time, Cambridge University Press.
* Melia, Fulvio (2007). The Galactic Supermassive Black Hole. Princeton U Press. ISBN 978-0-691-13129-0.
* Thorne, Kip S.; Misner, Charles; Wheeler, John (1973). Gravitation. W. H. Freeman and Company. ISBN 0-7167-0344-0.
* Wald, Robert M. (1992). Space, Time, and Gravity: The Theory of the Big Bang and Black Holes. University of Chicago Press. ISBN 0-226-87029-4.

[edit] Research papers

* Hawking, S. W. (July 2005), Information Loss in Black Holes, arxiv:hep-th/0507171. Stephen Hawking's purported solution to the black hole unitarity paradox, first reported at a conference in July 2004.
* Ghez, A.M. et al. Stellar orbits around the Galactic Center black hole, Astrophysics J. 620 (2005). arXiv:astro-ph/0306130 More accurate mass and position for the black hole at the centre of the Milky Way.
* Hughes, S. A. Trust but verify: the case for astrophysical black holes, arXiv:hep-ph/0511217. Lecture notes from 2005 SLAC Summer Institute.
 
redsamurai said:
not really........it's the falwell/robertson people that apparently call the shots in washington right now that fuck with me. C'mon man, that shit I posted a couple days ago about the fuckhat that told a woman who'd just been raped she can't have the morning after pill??? That's the shit that tells me things are getting serious........people are dropping their humanity in favor of a set ideals that tell them how to think..........bad times dude, real bad times we're in.
Haggard claimed to have weekly calls with the President....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Haggard
Ted Arthur Haggard (born June 27, 1956) is a former American evangelical preacher. Known as Pastor Ted to the congregations he has served, he is the founder and former pastor of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado; a founder of the Association of Life-Giving Churches; and was leader of the National Association of Evangelicals from 2003[1] until November 2006.

In November 2006, he resigned or was removed from all of his leadership positions after allegations of homosexual sex and drug abuse were made by whistleblower Mike Jones, a former male prostitute. Initially Haggard denied even knowing Mike Jones, but as a media investigation proceeded he acknowledged that some allegations, such as his purchase of methamphetamine, were true. He later added "sexual immorality" to his list of confessions.[2]

After the scandal was publicized, Haggard entered three weeks of intensive counseling, overseen by four ministers. On February 6, 2007, one of those ministers, Tim Ralph stated that Haggard "is completely heterosexual."[3] Ralph later said he meant to say that therapy "gave Ted the tools to help to embrace his heterosexual side."[4]

In 2005, Haggard was listed by Time magazine as one of the top 25 most influential evangelicals in America.[13] Haggard is a firm supporter of President George W. Bush, and is sometimes credited with rallying evangelicals behind Bush during the 2004 election.[14] Author Jeff Sharlet reported in 2005 that Haggard "talks to… Bush or his advisers every Monday" and stated at that time that "no pastor in America holds more sway over the political direction of evangelicalism."[15] In a June 2005 Wall Street Journal article, "Ted Haggard, the head of the 30-million strong National Association of Evangelicals, joked that the only disagreement between himself and the leader of the Western world is automotive: Mr. Bush drives a Ford pickup, whereas he prefers a Chevy."[16]
 
redsamurai said:
you think god requires worship from us?.......the maker of all that is, was and ever will be requires us to utter an arbitrary name we came up with to describe it? This thing, whatever it is.....he/she/it...........it's so profound and so powerful that to think we relate to it in any way shape or form is just silly. Live your life like a samurai and you'll do just fine when your judgement comes.


If you believe in god or a higher power or whatever...

god does not require worship at all

god does require everyone in his presence to be spotless ; perfect

he cannot accept any less / he cannot accept any of us

none of us can be perfect / sin free

to try and attain that yourself is silly

if you dont want to be with your maker then it does not matter. Those of us who do try to find a way

thats all

i dont understand why ppl try and force others to try and be with / or spend their life trying to find god ; or a god ; or anything if they dont want it.

if they dont want that in their life ; who cares? its their decision

its not the religion that is bad / its the evil people who abuse it for their own purpose. That is not what god intended
 
cindylou said:
If you believe in god or a higher power or whatever...

god does not require worship at all

god does require everyone in his presence to be spotless ; perfect

he cannot accept any less / he cannot accept any of us

none of us can be perfect / sin free

to try and attain that yourself is silly

if you dont want to be with your maker then it does not matter. Those of us who do try to find a way

thats all

i dont understand why ppl try and force others to try and be with / or spend their life trying to find god ; or a god ; or anything if they dont want it.

if they dont want that in their life ; who cares? its their decision

its not the religion that is bad / its the evil people who abuse it for their own purpose. That is not what god intended


thats deep
 
Lestat said:
I like the detail of your argument, and I too have studied evolution and notice that there are periods in history (based on fossil records) where great changes come in relatively shorter time spans.

Could there have been a creator that set of the big bang? Sure, I can't disprove that. BUT again, just because I can't disprove it, doesn't mean its likely. I do not think the evidence points to that at all.

Again, if there was a creator that set off the big bang, the first thing I want to know is, who or what created THAT creator, and so on and so for. So that line of reasoning is largely unsatisfying as well.
so what created the big bang...and what created that and then that...lol its the same dame thing.lol some time or another you have to say well there had to be a start...some thing or some one had to just be there for reasons that cant be explained....it has to start some where.
 
needtogetaas said:
so what created the big bang...and what created that and then that...lol its the same dame thing.lol some time or another you have to say well there had to be a start...some thing or some one had to just be there for reasons that cant be explained....it has to start some where.

its never ending at least we dont have to post little clips to try and prove our beliefs

just shows they still dont fully believe what they think they do..
 
Phaded said:
its never ending at least we dont have to post little clips to try and prove our beliefs

just shows they still dont fully believe what they think they do..
ya just gos to show...I am at peace with what I believe.if I am wrong well then its no lose to me...but if there wrong well lol might be a bit of a lose to them.
 
needtogetaas said:
ya just gos to show...I am at peace with what I believe.if I am wrong well then its no lose to me...but if there wrong well lol might be a bit of a lose to them.
That's assuming you chose the "right" God. You better hope the Aztecs, Greeks, Sumerians, Norse and the list goes on aren't "right."
 
Sometimes I think people who fight to try to convince others of what they believe to an excessive extent.....are just trying to convince themselves.

That goes both ways.
 
javaguru said:
That's assuming you chose the "right" God. You better hope the Aztecs, Greeks, Sumerians, Norse and the list goes on aren't "right."

you try way too hard give it up..
 
heatherrae said:
Pick up a book? Now I guess I'm stupid and uneducated? Please spare me. I have read plenty about Hitler and the Nazi party. Hitler was a nut. Lots of people kill people and give all sorts of absurd reasons. Blaming the holocaust on Christianity is absurd.

Coming on here and ripping people's religion makes you feel intellectually superior, then so be it. Have fun with that. :rolleyes:
Christianity is the root cause of the idea for the need of elimination of the Jews from Europe. The passion play is the fundamental lynch pin in assigning a negative and dehumanizing role to Jews.

Go read Constantine's Sword. It's a real book by an x priest who details the genesis of this phenomena and its root in modern Christianity.
 
javaguru said:
What an excellent counter point. Should I take that on faith?

dont you realize that any thread about religion is bashing christianity and trying to prove that whatever someone else believes is the 'truth'.. find me a thread started by a christian thats sole purpose is to disprove atheism please.. we dont need to prove shit what we know is what we know and we are content by our 'blind faith'
 
WODIN said:
Christianity is the root cause of the idea for the need of elimination of the Jews from Europe. The passion play is the fundamental lynch pin in assigning a negative and dehumanizing role to Jews.

Go read Constantine's Sword. It's a real book by an x priest who details the genesis of this phenomena and its root in modern Christianity.


this I dont understand.

The bible says that the Jew's are God's chosen people. We are to be kind and we are to lookout and not harm them.

The only commandment given to us in the new testiment is to love eachother. That is it. anything else is not christianity.

People do evil things in the name of God/ christianity and religion. None of that means that Christianity itself is evil.
 
Believe what you will.....the one thing I am sure of is that there is ALWAYS and I mean Always doubt. You can stand on the rooftops and expound (until we shoot you down from there).....but you Still have some doubt about said babble....even if you dont recognize it........of this I am absolutely certain!!!!!!....there's a hole in this theory somewhere.
 
harmonica said:
Believe what you will.....the one thing I am sure of is that there is ALWAYS and I mean Always doubt. You can stand on the rooftops and expound (until we shoot you down from there).....but you Still have some doubt about said babble....even if you dont recognize it........of this I am absolutely certain!!!!!!....there's a hole in this theory somewhere.


there is doubt in everything we do, its what you believe in that counts and you cant argue opinions.
 
harmonica said:
Believe what you will.....the one thing I am sure of is that there is ALWAYS and I mean Always doubt. You can stand on the rooftops and expound (until we shoot you down from there).....but you Still have some doubt about said babble....even if you dont recognize it........of this I am absolutely certain!!!!!!....there's a hole in this theory somewhere.


haha!

lol


love it.
 
Phaded said:
dont you realize that any thread about religion is bashing christianity and trying to prove that whatever someone else believes is the 'truth'.. find me a thread started by a christian thats sole purpose is to disprove atheism please.. we dont need to prove shit what we know is what we know and we are content by our 'blind faith'
To prove Atheism wrong all you have to do is provide scientific evidence of a supernatural power creator. I like many scientists see God in nature and not as some supernatural meglomaniac. According to James Cameron, he's discovered the rotting corpse of Jesus; If it's true then it's game set and match for Christianity and you'll have to switch religions. :)

There are roughly six billion people on the planet. Christianity, Islam and Judaism combined account for about two billion and by 2010 Islam is expected to be the single largest religious group.

Atheism around the world.
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/atheism.html

Even in open, democratic societies without pervasive governmental coercion, individuals often feel that in order to make themselves appear as decent, upstanding citizens, it is necessary to say that are religious( i ) -- or deny being an atheist -- simply because such a response is deemed socially desirable or culturally appropriate. For example, the designation “atheist” is highly stigmatized in many societies; even when people directly claim to not believe in God, they still eschew the specific self-designation of “atheist.” Greeley (2003) found that 29% of Latvians, 41% of Norwegians, 48% of the French, and 54% of Czechs claimed to not believe in God, but only 9%, 10%, 19%, and 20% of those respondents self-identified as “atheist,” respectively.

Country % Atheist/ Agnostic/Nonbeliever in God (minimum - maximum)
1 Sweden 46-85%
2 Vietnam 81%
3 Denmark 43-80%
4 Norway 31-72%
5 Japan 64-65%
6 Czech Republic 54-61%
7 Finland 28-60%
8 France 43-54%
9 South Korea 30%-52%
10 Estonia 49%
11 Germany 41-49%
12 Russia 24-48%
13 Hungary 32-46%
14 Netherlands 39-44%
15 Britain 31-44%
16 Belgium 42-43%
17 Bulgaria 34-40%
18 Slovenia 35-38%
19 Israel 15-37%
20 Canada 19-30%
21 Latvia 20-29%
22 Slovakia 10-28%
23 Switzerland 17-27%
24 Austria 18-26%
25 Australia 24-25%
26 Taiwan 24%
27 Spain 15-24%
28 Iceland 16-23%
29 New Zealand 20-22%
30 Ukraine 20%
31 Belarus 17%
32 Greece 16%
33 North Korea 15% ( ? )
34 Italy 6-15%
35 Armenia 14%
37 Lithuania 13%
38 Singapore 13%
39 Uruguay 12%
40 Kazakhstan 11-12%
41 Estonia 11%
42 Mongolia 9%
43 Portugal 4-9%
44 United States 3-9%
45 Albania 8%
46 Argentina 4-8%
47 Kyrgyzstan 7%
48 Dominican Rep. 7%
49 Cuba 7% ( ? )
50 Croatia 7%

(?): certainty/validity on these figures is relatively low
 
javaguru said:
To prove Atheism wrong all you have to do is provide scientific evidence of a supernatural power creator. I like many scientists see God in nature and not as some supernatural meglomaniac. According to James Cameron, he's discovered the rotting corpse of Jesus; If it's true then it's game set and match for Christianity and you'll have to switch religions. :)

There are roughly six billion people on the planet. Christianity, Islam and Judaism combined account for about two billion and by 2010 Islam is expected to be the single largest religious group.

Atheism around the world.
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/atheism.html

Even in open, democratic societies without pervasive governmental coercion, individuals often feel that in order to make themselves appear as decent, upstanding citizens, it is necessary to say that are religious( i ) -- or deny being an atheist -- simply because such a response is deemed socially desirable or culturally appropriate. For example, the designation “atheist” is highly stigmatized in many societies; even when people directly claim to not believe in God, they still eschew the specific self-designation of “atheist.” Greeley (2003) found that 29% of Latvians, 41% of Norwegians, 48% of the French, and 54% of Czechs claimed to not believe in God, but only 9%, 10%, 19%, and 20% of those respondents self-identified as “atheist,” respectively.

Country % Atheist/ Agnostic/Nonbeliever in God (minimum - maximum)
1 Sweden 46-85%
2 Vietnam 81%
3 Denmark 43-80%
4 Norway 31-72%
5 Japan 64-65%
6 Czech Republic 54-61%
7 Finland 28-60%
8 France 43-54%
9 South Korea 30%-52%
10 Estonia 49%
11 Germany 41-49%
12 Russia 24-48%
13 Hungary 32-46%
14 Netherlands 39-44%
15 Britain 31-44%
16 Belgium 42-43%
17 Bulgaria 34-40%
18 Slovenia 35-38%
19 Israel 15-37%
20 Canada 19-30%
21 Latvia 20-29%
22 Slovakia 10-28%
23 Switzerland 17-27%
24 Austria 18-26%
25 Australia 24-25%
26 Taiwan 24%
27 Spain 15-24%
28 Iceland 16-23%
29 New Zealand 20-22%
30 Ukraine 20%
31 Belarus 17%
32 Greece 16%
33 North Korea 15% ( ? )
34 Italy 6-15%
35 Armenia 14%
37 Lithuania 13%
38 Singapore 13%
39 Uruguay 12%
40 Kazakhstan 11-12%
41 Estonia 11%
42 Mongolia 9%
43 Portugal 4-9%
44 United States 3-9%
45 Albania 8%
46 Argentina 4-8%
47 Kyrgyzstan 7%
48 Dominican Rep. 7%
49 Cuba 7% ( ? )
50 Croatia 7%

(?): certainty/validity on these figures is relatively low

you know that prickly feeling on your neck? or when it gets really cold? thats jesus..
 
Many people do not believe in God (but dont claim to be athiest) because they dont know or dont care enough to even set out to see if God exists or not.

An athiest is a religion in itself ; setting out to prove that God does not exist and trying to convince others of such.

That is why numbers are low. I dont think that anyone thinks you are not a decent human if you dont belive in god.
 
cindylou said:
this I dont understand.

The bible says that the Jew's are God's chosen people. We are to be kind and we are to lookout and not harm them.

The only commandment given to us in the new testiment is to love eachother. That is it. anything else is not christianity.

People do evil things in the name of God/ christianity and religion. None of that means that Christianity itself is evil.

Martin Luther , wrote....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies


On the Jews and their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und iren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word treatise written by the German monk and church reformer Martin Luther in 1543, three years before his death.

In the treatise, Luther writes that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[3] He argues that their synagogues and schools should be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[4] afforded no legal protection,[5] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[6] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them."[7]

The prevailing scholarly view[8] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust . Four hundred years after it was written, the National Socialists displayed On the Jews and their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[9] Against the majority view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[10] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history."[11]

Since the 1980s, some Lutheran church bodies have formally denounced Luther's writings on the Jews. In November 1998, on the 60th anniversary of Kristallnacht, the Lutheran Church of Bavaria issued a statement: "It is imperative for the Lutheran Church, which knows itself to be indebted to the work and tradition of Martin Luther, to take seriously also his anti-Jewish utterances, to acknowledge their theological function, and to reflect on their consequences. It has to distance itself from every [expression of] anti-Judaism in Lutheran theology."[12]
 
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needtogetaas said:
so what created the big bang...and what created that and then that...lol its the same dame thing.lol some time or another you have to say well there had to be a start...some thing or some one had to just be there for reasons that cant be explained....it has to start some where.
lol. So if it can't be explained, why do people make up stories to account for some explanation?

I think we will continue to learn more, and eventually know most of the details of how a universe could be created or get it start.

And I'm positive that the answer will not come from a religious text.
 
javaguru said:
Martin Luther , wrote....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies


On the Jews and their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und iren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word treatise written by the German monk and church reformer Martin Luther in 1543, three years before his death.

In the treatise, Luther writes that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[3] He argues that their synagogues and schools should be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[4] afforded no legal protection,[5] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[6] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them."[7]

The prevailing scholarly view[8] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust . Four hundred years after it was written, the National Socialists displayed On the Jews and their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[9] Against the majority view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[10] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history."[11]

Since the 1980s, some Lutheran church bodies have formally denounced Luther's writings on the Jews. In November 1998, on the 60th anniversary of Kristallnacht, the Lutheran Church of Bavaria issued a statement: "It is imperative for the Lutheran Church, which knows itself to be indebted to the work and tradition of Martin Luther, to take seriously also his anti-Jewish utterances, to acknowledge their theological function, and to reflect on their consequences. It has to distance itself from every [expression of] anti-Judaism in Lutheran theology."[12]

Thats what I'm saying. Thats not what the bible says.

So ; thats what someone else said. Not God. Not the bible. Its not a part of being a Christian.
 
cindylou said:
Thats what I'm saying. Thats not what the bible says.

So ; thats what someone else said. Not God. Not the bible. Its not a part of being a Christian.
The Bible was written by men, translated by men, and interpreted by men. What do you expect?

The bible does say if your son comes home talking about other gods, you should throw the first stone.

All kinds of nice little gems like that in the Bible, but people interpret some things figuratively, some literally, some say we have to believe in this, but not this, do this, but not that. It doesn't take very long to realize its all a bunch of crap.

And phaded, why would anyone try to disprove atheism? How do you disprove, a LACK of a belief?

Do you believe in Islam? No right? How would someone disprove your lack of belief in it? You can't. You can only try to prove that something is true.
 
Lestat said:
The Bible was written by men, translated by men, and interpreted by men. What do you expect?

The bible does say if your son comes home talking about other gods, you should throw the first stone.

All kinds of nice little gems like that in the Bible, but people interpret some things figuratively, some literally, some say we have to believe in this, but not this, do this, but not that. It doesn't take very long to realize its all a bunch of crap.

And phaded, why would anyone try to disprove atheism? How do you disprove, a LACK of a belief?

Do you believe in Islam? No right? How would someone disprove your lack of belief in it? You can't. You can only try to prove that something is true.

whatever you say have a nice time in hell loser..
 
cindylou said:
Many people do not believe in God (but dont claim to be athiest) because they dont know or dont care enough to even set out to see if God exists or not.

An athiest is a religion in itself ; setting out to prove that God does not exist and trying to convince others of such.

That is why numbers are low. I dont think that anyone thinks you are not a decent human if you dont belive in god.

a·the·ist (ā'thē-ĭst) Pronunciation Key
n. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

You're an Atheist when it comes to Zeus and Odin.

re·li·gion (rĭ-lĭj'ən) Pronunciation Key
n.

1.Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2.A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
3.The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
4.A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.



Exactly how is Atheism a religion? That's like claiming science is a religion. Most atheists simply claim there is no evidence for a supernatural creator deity and that's why they don't believe in one. Show me scientific evidence and I'll believe. The discussion is about letting people that don't believe in God know it's ok to admit it. I've had a number of PM's of people who grew up with a religious background thank me for bringing up the subject and exposing them to the writings of Dawkins.

I dont think that anyone thinks you are not a decent human if you dont belive in god.
When George Bush was campaigning for the presidency, as incumbent vice-president, one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. At O'Hare Airport he held a formal outdoor news conference. There Robert I. Sherman, a reporter for the American Atheist news journal, fully accredited by the state of Illinois and by invitation a participating member of the press corps covering the national candidates, had the following exchange with then-Vice-President Bush.




Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?

Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?

Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.
 
Lestat said:
The Bible was written by men, translated by men, and interpreted by men. What do you expect?

The bible does say if your son comes home talking about other gods, you should throw the first stone.

All kinds of nice little gems like that in the Bible, but people interpret some things figuratively, some literally, some say we have to believe in this, but not this, do this, but not that. It doesn't take very long to realize its all a bunch of crap.

And phaded, why would anyone try to disprove atheism? How do you disprove, a LACK of a belief?

Do you believe in Islam? No right? How would someone disprove your lack of belief in it? You can't. You can only try to prove that something is true.

Okay. Thats fine. BUT what I'm saying is that you cant say that the Christian religion supports what java was saying becasue it does not. Christianity is based on the bible. Thats it. Who cares what anyone wrote in a speech or paper. That has nothing to do with it.

Its not fair to say that about Christians when thats not what they believe.
 
javaguru said:
Exactly how is Atheism a religion? That's like claiming science is a religion. Most atheists simply claim there is no evidence for a supernatural creator deity and that's why they don't believe in one. Show me scientific evidence and I'll believe. The discussion is about letting people that don't believe in God know it's ok to admit it. I've had a number of PM's of people who grew up with a religious background thank me for bringing up the subject and exposing them to the writings of Dawkins.


When George Bush was campaigning for the presidency, as incumbent vice-president, one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. At O'Hare Airport he held a formal outdoor news conference. There Robert I. Sherman, a reporter for the American Atheist news journal, fully accredited by the state of Illinois and by invitation a participating member of the press corps covering the national candidates, had the following exchange with then-Vice-President Bush.


lol. Okay so George Bush dont like you. He is not exactly a very good example of a christian ; if he is one at all.

I also meant kind of like a religion. I'm not sure what I said. ITS CLEAR that you are not religous.

Besides that. The bible does not support anyone judging you on your rejection of GOD. thats your rejection plain and simple. We are only commanded to love you all the same. :)
 
cindylou said:
Okay. Thats fine. BUT what I'm saying is that you cant say that the Christian religion supports what java was saying becasue it does not. Christianity is based on the bible. Thats it. Who cares what anyone wrote in a speech or paper. That has nothing to do with it.

Its not fair to say that about Christians when thats not what they believe.
I think most Christians can't agree on what they believe!

Think about it, this is ancient text, translated to English many times over now. The original text had now vowels!! There is a LOT of meaning that is derived through analysis and explanation. If you take 100 people, give them all the Bible to read, I would bet that you get 100 different interpretations of what it REALLY means to be a Christian, so who is right? Christians generally defer to the religious leaders of their particular denominations. Basically, they go with what makes most sense to them initially and then get spoon fed from pastors and ministers.

If we were all born and raised in India, we'd be having this same discussion about Hindi or Islam faith I would imagine.
 
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cindylou said:
Okay. Thats fine. BUT what I'm saying is that you cant say that the Christian religion supports what java was saying becasue it does not. Christianity is based on the bible. Thats it. Who cares what anyone wrote in a speech or paper. That has nothing to do with it.

Its not fair to say that about Christians when thats not what they believe.
Like the evangelical Pastor that murdered the abortion doctor using the attributed words of Jesus from the Bible to justify his actions. You know the one about protecting the little children....He is widely viewed as a martyr among the pro life activists.
 
Lestat said:
I think most Christians can't agree on what they believe!

Think about it, this is ancient text, translated to English many times over now. The original text had now vowels!! There is a LOT of meaning that is derived through analysis and explanation. If you take 100 people, give them all the Bible to read, I would bet that you get 100 different interpretations of what it REALLY means to be a Christian, so who is right? Christians generally defer to the religious leaders of their particular denominations. Basically, they go with what makes most sense to them initially and then get spoon fed from pastors and ministers.

If we were all born and raised in India, we'd be having this same discussion about Hindi or Islam faith I would imagine.

we are supposed to interpret on our own. Thats how God speaks to our hearts. I know you dont understand. You have to not only think with a logical mind ; but you have to think spiritually as well.

You can go to a pastor / priest to help you understand what the bible means ; but the bible also tells us how to read it. Never spoon fed. You should be careful of any religion/ or person who says they need to interpret the bible for you. Most of the time they are doing it for their own good.

Most of the things Christians cannot agree on are small. Speaking in tongues/ if Jesus turned water into wine / is baptism essential or a symbol.... it goes on. Most things are quite clear otherwise. at least to me. lol I do the best I can reading it.

You have to open your heart to allow God to speak to you. He will speak to you if your heart is not bitter and hardened.
 
javaguru said:
Like the evangelical Pastor that murdered the abortion doctor using the attributed words of Jesus from the Bible to justify his actions. You know the one about protecting the little children....He is widely viewed as a martyr among the pro life activists.


thats terrorism.

It just is.

It has no place in christianity. A good example of religion being abused.
 
The two most common arguments given by theists for belief.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/arguments.html#bible

1."What if you're wrong. I lose nothing by believing in God and if you're wrong then you go to hell."
"If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing -- but if you don't believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you will go to hell. Therefore it is foolish to be an atheist."

This argument is known as Pascal's Wager. It has several flaws.

Firstly, it does not indicate which religion to follow. Indeed, there are many mutually exclusive and contradictory religions out there. This is often described as the "avoiding the wrong hell" problem. If a person is a follower of one religion, he may end up in another religion's version of hell.

Even if we assume that there's a God, that doesn't imply that there's one unique God. Which should we believe in? If we believe in all of them, how will we decide which commandments to follow?

Secondly, the statement that "If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing" is not true. Suppose you're believing in the wrong God -- the true God might punish you for your foolishness. Consider also the deaths that have resulted from people rejecting medicine in favor of prayer.

Another flaw in the argument is that it is based on the assumption that the two possibilities are equally likely -- or at least, that they are of comparable likelihood. If, in fact, the possibility of there being a God is close to zero, the argument becomes much less persuasive. So sadly the argument is only likely to convince those who believe already.

Also, many feel that for intellectually honest people, belief is based on evidence, with some amount of intuition. It is not a matter of will or cost-benefit analysis.

Formally speaking, the argument consists of four statements:

1. One does not know whether God exists.
2. Not believing in God is bad for one's eternal soul if God does exist.
3. Believing in God is of no consequence if God does not exist.
4. Therefore it is in one's interest to believe in God.
There are two approaches to the argument. The first is to view Statement 1 as an assumption, and Statement 2 as a consequence of it. The problem is that there's really no way to arrive at Statement 2 from Statement 1 via simple logical inference. The statements just don't follow on from each other.

The alternative approach is to claim that Statements 1 and 2 are both assumptions. The problem with this is that Statement 2 is then basically an assumption which states the Christian position, and only a Christian will agree with that assumption. The argument thus collapses to "If you are a Christian, it is in your interests to believe in God" -- a rather vacuous tautology, and not the way Pascal intended the argument to be viewed.

Also, if we don't even know that God exists, why should we take Statement 2 over some similar assumption? Isn't it just as likely that God would be angry at people who chose to believe for personal gain? If God is omniscient, he will certainly know who really believes and who believes as a wager. He will spurn the latter... assuming he actually cares at all whether people truly believe in him.

Some have suggested that the person who chooses to believe based on Pascal's Wager, can then somehow make the transition to truly believing. Unfortunately, most atheists don't find it possible to make that leap.

In addition, this hypothetical God may require more than simple belief; almost all Christians believe that the Christian God requires an element of trust and obedience from his followers. That destroys the assertion that if you believe but are wrong, you lose nothing.

Finally, if this God is a fair and just God, surely he will judge people on their actions in life, not on whether they happen to believe in him. A God who sends good and kind people to hell is not one most atheists would be prepared to consider worshipping.

2."The Universe is so complex it must have been designed."

"The presence of design in the universe proves there is a God. Surely you don't think all this appeared here just by chance?"

This is known as the Argument From Design.

It is a matter of dispute whether there is any element of design in the universe. Those who believe that the complexity and diversity of living creatures on the earth is evidence of a creator are best advised to read the newsgroup talk.origins for a while, or consult the archive at <URL:http://www.talkorigins.org/>.

There is insufficient space to summarize both sides of that debate here. However, the conclusion is that there is no scientific evidence in favor of so-called Scientific Creationism. Furthermore, there is much evidence, observation and theory that can explain many of the complexities of the universe and life on earth.

The origin of the Argument by Design is a feeling that the existence of something as incredibly intricate as, say, a human is so improbable that surely it can't have come about by chance; that surely there must be some external intelligence directing things so that humans come from the chaos deliberately.

But if human intelligence is so improbable, surely the existence of a mind capable of fashioning an entire universe complete with conscious beings must be immeasurably more unlikely? The approach used to argue in favor of the existence of a creator can be turned around and applied to the Creationist position.

This leads us to the familiar theme of "If a creator created the universe, what created the creator?", but with the addition of spiralling improbability. The only way out is to declare that the creator was not created and just "is" (or "was").

From here we might as well ask what is wrong with saying that the universe just "is" without introducing a creator? Indeed Stephen Hawking, in his book "A Brief History of Time", explains his theory that the universe is closed and finite in extent, with no beginning or end.

The Argument From Design is often stated by analogy, in the so-called Watchmaker Argument. One is asked to imagine that one has found a watch on the beach. Does one assume that it was created by a watchmaker, or that it evolved naturally? Of course one assumes a watchmaker. Yet like the watch, the universe is intricate and complex; so, the argument goes, the universe too must have a creator.

The Watchmaker analogy suffers from three particular flaws, over and above those common to all Arguments By Design. Firstly, a watchmaker creates watches from pre-existing materials, whereas God is claimed to have created the universe from nothing. These two sorts of creation are clearly fundamentally different, and the analogy is therefore rather weak.

Secondly, a watchmaker makes watches, but there are many other things in the world. If we walked further along the beach and found a nuclear reactor, we wouldn't assume it was created by the watchmaker. The argument would therefore suggest a multitude of creators, each responsible for a different part of creation (or a different universe, if you allow the possibility that there might be more than one).

Finally, in the first part of the watchmaker argument we conclude that the watch is not part of nature because it is ordered, and therefore stands out from the randomness of nature. Yet in the second part of the argument, we start from the position that the universe is obviously not random, but shows elements of order. The Watchmaker argument is thus internally inconsistent.

Apart from logical inconsistencies in the watchmaker argument, it's worth pointing out that biological systems and mechanical systems behave very differently. What's unlikely for a pile of gears is not necessarily unlikely for a mixture of biological molecules.
 
cindylou said:
we are supposed to interpret on our own. Thats how God speaks to our hearts. I know you dont understand. You have to not only think with a logical mind ; but you have to think spiritually as well.

You can go to a pastor / priest to help you understand what the bible means ; but the bible also tells us how to read it. Never spoon fed. You should be careful of any religion/ or person who says they need to interpret the bible for you. Most of the time they are doing it for their own good.

Most of the things Christians cannot agree on are small. Speaking in tongues/ if Jesus turned water into wine / is baptism essential or a symbol.... it goes on. Most things are quite clear otherwise. at least to me. lol I do the best I can reading it.

You have to open your heart to allow God to speak to you. He will speak to you if your heart is not bitter and hardened.
You are are saying the subjective personal relationship that any single individual has with "god" is what is most important to them?

So what happens when one person's personal relationship with god tells them to go kill someone (someone EVIL of course, and against god). Or how about when some people decide to get together and block research that could help cure paralysis and other life altering conditions. Or how about when people's personal relationship tells them that the earth is 6,000 years old and we should teach our children that?
 
javaguru said:
The two most common arguments given by theists for belief.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/arguments.html#bible

1."What if you're wrong. I lose nothing by believing in God and if you're wrong then you go to hell."
"If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing -- but if you don't believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you will go to hell. Therefore it is foolish to be an atheist."

This argument is known as Pascal's Wager. It has several flaws.

Firstly, it does not indicate which religion to follow. Indeed, there are many mutually exclusive and contradictory religions out there. This is often described as the "avoiding the wrong hell" problem. If a person is a follower of one religion, he may end up in another religion's version of hell.

Even if we assume that there's a God, that doesn't imply that there's one unique God. Which should we believe in? If we believe in all of them, how will we decide which commandments to follow?

Secondly, the statement that "If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing" is not true. Suppose you're believing in the wrong God -- the true God might punish you for your foolishness. Consider also the deaths that have resulted from people rejecting medicine in favor of prayer.

Another flaw in the argument is that it is based on the assumption that the two possibilities are equally likely -- or at least, that they are of comparable likelihood. If, in fact, the possibility of there being a God is close to zero, the argument becomes much less persuasive. So sadly the argument is only likely to convince those who believe already.

Also, many feel that for intellectually honest people, belief is based on evidence, with some amount of intuition. It is not a matter of will or cost-benefit analysis.

Formally speaking, the argument consists of four statements:

1. One does not know whether God exists.
2. Not believing in God is bad for one's eternal soul if God does exist.
3. Believing in God is of no consequence if God does not exist.
4. Therefore it is in one's interest to believe in God.
5. There are two approaches to the argument. The first is to view Statement 1 as an assumption, and Statement 2 as a consequence of it. The problem is that there's really no way to arrive at Statement 2 from Statement 1 via simple logical inference. The statements just don't follow on from each other.

The alternative approach is to claim that Statements 1 and 2 are both assumptions. The problem with this is that Statement 2 is then basically an assumption which states the Christian position, and only a Christian will agree with that assumption. The argument thus collapses to "If you are a Christian, it is in your interests to believe in God" -- a rather vacuous tautology, and not the way Pascal intended the argument to be viewed.

Also, if we don't even know that God exists, why should we take Statement 2 over some similar assumption? Isn't it just as likely that God would be angry at people who chose to believe for personal gain? If God is omniscient, he will certainly know who really believes and who believes as a wager. He will spurn the latter... assuming he actually cares at all whether people truly believe in him.

Some have suggested that the person who chooses to believe based on Pascal's Wager, can then somehow make the transition to truly believing. Unfortunately, most atheists don't find it possible to make that leap.

In addition, this hypothetical God may require more than simple belief; almost all Christians believe that the Christian God requires an element of trust and obedience from his followers. That destroys the assertion that if you believe but are wrong, you lose nothing.

Finally, if this God is a fair and just God, surely he will judge people on their actions in life, not on whether they happen to believe in him. A God who sends good and kind people to hell is not one most atheists would be prepared to consider worshipping.

2."The Universe is so complex it must have been designed."

"The presence of design in the universe proves there is a God. Surely you don't think all this appeared here just by chance?"

This is known as the Argument From Design.

It is a matter of dispute whether there is any element of design in the universe. Those who believe that the complexity and diversity of living creatures on the earth is evidence of a creator are best advised to read the newsgroup talk.origins for a while, or consult the archive at <URL:http://www.talkorigins.org/>.

There is insufficient space to summarize both sides of that debate here. However, the conclusion is that there is no scientific evidence in favor of so-called Scientific Creationism. Furthermore, there is much evidence, observation and theory that can explain many of the complexities of the universe and life on earth.

The origin of the Argument by Design is a feeling that the existence of something as incredibly intricate as, say, a human is so improbable that surely it can't have come about by chance; that surely there must be some external intelligence directing things so that humans come from the chaos deliberately.

But if human intelligence is so improbable, surely the existence of a mind capable of fashioning an entire universe complete with conscious beings must be immeasurably more unlikely? The approach used to argue in favor of the existence of a creator can be turned around and applied to the Creationist position.

This leads us to the familiar theme of "If a creator created the universe, what created the creator?", but with the addition of spiralling improbability. The only way out is to declare that the creator was not created and just "is" (or "was").

From here we might as well ask what is wrong with saying that the universe just "is" without introducing a creator? Indeed Stephen Hawking, in his book "A Brief History of Time", explains his theory that the universe is closed and finite in extent, with no beginning or end.

The Argument From Design is often stated by analogy, in the so-called Watchmaker Argument. One is asked to imagine that one has found a watch on the beach. Does one assume that it was created by a watchmaker, or that it evolved naturally? Of course one assumes a watchmaker. Yet like the watch, the universe is intricate and complex; so, the argument goes, the universe too must have a creator.

The Watchmaker analogy suffers from three particular flaws, over and above those common to all Arguments By Design. Firstly, a watchmaker creates watches from pre-existing materials, whereas God is claimed to have created the universe from nothing. These two sorts of creation are clearly fundamentally different, and the analogy is therefore rather weak.

Secondly, a watchmaker makes watches, but there are many other things in the world. If we walked further along the beach and found a nuclear reactor, we wouldn't assume it was created by the watchmaker. The argument would therefore suggest a multitude of creators, each responsible for a different part of creation (or a different universe, if you allow the possibility that there might be more than one).

Finally, in the first part of the watchmaker argument we conclude that the watch is not part of nature because it is ordered, and therefore stands out from the randomness of nature. Yet in the second part of the argument, we start from the position that the universe is obviously not random, but shows elements of order. The Watchmaker argument is thus internally inconsistent.

Apart from logical inconsistencies in the watchmaker argument, it's worth pointing out that biological systems and mechanical systems behave very differently. What's unlikely for a pile of gears is not necessarily unlikely for a mixture of biological molecules.
your kidding me right....you waisted that much time out of your life looking up or reading a book about how to argue with a Christian.lmao that is aspathetic as it gets.
 
I dont argue those.

I know God is real. I know it. I dont need God because if he does not exist I'll go to hell. He's real because I can feel him in my life ; he is there just as much as I am there. To know God in your life and see what he does, you cannot deny this. You just have to open your heart a little ; and not be dead to life and love, but alive to feel what its like to truly love and live.

a person's perception changes.


Of course all the talking/typing in the world will not convince you of that. AND thats ok. If you dont want God in your life, thats fine. God does not want anyone who does not want him either. I'm sure God is dissapointed that you keep rejecting him ; but does not want to force you either. He wants what you want. Thats what love is right?
 
Lestat said:
You are are saying the subjective personal relationship that any single individual has with "god" is what is most important to them?

So what happens when one person's personal relationship with god tells them to go kill someone (someone EVIL of course, and against god). Or how about when some people decide to get together and block research that could help cure paralysis and other life altering conditions. Or how about when people's personal relationship tells them that the earth is 6,000 years old and we should teach our children that?


For the most part God says that vengence is his. He did command people (MOSES) to kill in the OT but that is not to happen anymore ; we are only to love eachother and our enemies.

And yes ; a personal relationship every single person has with God is what is most important. Each individual person has to decide to accept or reject what God has to offer them in their lives today and hereafter.
 
Phaded said:
have you ever seen the movie the neverending story? i like the big ass dragon.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/arguments.html#godel

Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem
"Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that it is impossible for the Bible to be both true and complete."

Gödel's First Incompleteness Theorem applies to any consistent formal system which:

Is sufficiently expressive that it can model ordinary arithmetic
Has a decision procedure for determining whether a given string is an axiom within the formal system (i.e. is "recursive")
Gödel showed that in any such system S, it is possible to formulate an expression which says "This statement is unprovable in S".

If such a statement were provable in S, then S would be inconsistent. Hence any such system must either be incomplete or inconsistent. If a formal system is incomplete, then there exist statements within the system which can never be proven to be valid or invalid ('true' or 'false') within the system.

Essentially, Gödel's First Incompleteness Theorem revolves around getting formal systems to formulate a variation on the "Liar Paradox". The classic Liar Paradox sentence in ordinary English is "This sentence is false."

Note that if a proposition is undecidable, the formal system cannot even deduce that it is undecidable. (This is Gödel's Second Incompleteness Theorem, which is rather tricky to prove.)

The logic used in theological discussions is rarely well defined, so claims that Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that it is impossible to prove (or disprove) the existence of God are worthless in isolation.

One can trivially define a formal system in which it is possible to prove the existence of God, simply by having the existence of God stated as an axiom. (This is unlikely to be viewed by atheists as a convincing proof, however.)

It may be possible to succeed in producing a formal system built on axioms that both atheists and theists agree with. It may then be possible to show that Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem holds for that system. However, that would still not demonstrate that it is impossible to prove that God exists within the system. Furthermore, it certainly wouldn't tell us anything about whether it is possible to prove the existence of God generally.

Note also that all of these hypothetical formal systems tell us nothing about the actual existence of God; the formal systems are just abstractions.

Another frequent claim is that Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that a religious text (the Bible, the Book of Mormon or whatever) cannot be both consistent and universally applicable. Religious texts are not formal systems, so such claims are nonsense.

There are a number of books which talk specifically about Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem, and explain concepts such as axiomatic systems, consistency and completeness:

Gödel's Proof by Ernest Nagel and James R. Newman.
A thorough discussion of the argument in Godel's proof, as well as its limitations; plus an overview of its historical context.

Forever Undecided: A Puzzle Guide to Godel by Raymond Smullyan.
Through puzzles, Smullyan guides the reader through the basic ideas relevant to Godel's proof.

Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems, also by Raymond Smullyan.
A more formal, but still very readable, overview of the theorems.
 
needtogetaas said:
your kidding me right....you waisted that much time out of your life looking up or reading a book about how to argue with a Christian.lmao that is aspathetic as it gets.
I don't think seeking truth is ever a waste of time bro.

and cindy, if relationships with god were always personal, and didn't have any bearing on anyone but the individual, they would be tolerable, like astrology, or tarrot card reading. We don't see public policy being dictated by people's belief in the starts. We don't see colleges and schools based on astrology centric curriculum. Can you see how this would be very disturbing if it was true?
 
javaguru said:
Fact: The US Prison Population
Now, let's just deal with the nasty Christian types, no?

Catholic 29267 39.164%
Protestant 26162 35.008%
(snip)

Atheists, being a large
proportion of the population (about 8-10%?) are
disproportionately less in prison populations (0.21%).
I see a data collection problem there. When the guy who's booking you takes your fingerprints he also gives you a form to list your next of kin and any religious needs you might have, right at a moment you're trying really hard to think of ways to make yourself sound like an upstanding citizen.

It's a tiny bit like Galileo being shown the instruments of torture and then being asked if he would like to reconsider whether the earth goes around the sun.
 
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