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Test Is OVERRATED!

Nelson Montana

Nelson Montana

Chairman of Board
Chairman Member
Everybody knows test is king, right? Well, it wasn't always that way. In fact, test was, and should be considered, a "last resort" What changed?

Right from the start, the purpose of steroids was to avoid many of the androgenic side effects. This is why dianabol was invented. The Russians were already using testosterone but the sides were horrific! Dianbol offered a "kinder, gentler" version. The problem of course was the liver toxicity. But dianabol was never meant to be taken in the dosages taken today.

Deca was the darling of 80's bodybuilders because is was not androgenic. But deca's lack of androgen didn't prevent the nasty side effects which were ironically WORSE due to the fact that the body was left with no androgens. Deca is the "Edsel*" of steroids!

Primobolin, in many ways, is the ultimate steroid. But as many have realize, without SOME androgen, a cycle just doesn't have quite the same kick. This is Primo and d-bol or test was a sweet stack.

Now, back to test...

The reason test has become so popular is mainly for one reason -- it's cheap -- so cheap it isn't even worth counterfiting. Making test cost next to nothing. In fact, a lot of what people think is other drugs from bootleg sources is all bathtub testosterone in varying doses.

Because test is also anabolic it's a viable substitute for superior drugs like Primo. And because pros started taking more and more drugs, test was as good as anything else, especially when you use slin, GH, IGF, clen, T3, lasix, etc, etc etc. It's also why when these "test heads" come off, they lose 50 pounds in 6 months. The weight just isn't solid.

But test is what makes you strong and manly right? Well, yes and no. It's actually "free" test and DHT that does that. This is why winny, mast, proviron and halo make you rock hard. They're all DHT derivitives! And in the case of Proviron and Winny, they increase "free" T by supressing SHBG. Once again, the only non drug that increases "free T' is avenacosides A&B. Not trib. Not tongkat ali. And by the way, Saw Palmetto LOWERS DHT and increases SHBG. IT IS THE WORST SUPPLEMENT A MAN CAN TAKE.

Once again, very ironic that it's in so many "men's formulas."

This shows the ignorance of so much of the supplement industry.

So what's the verdict? No, don't throw away your testosterone just yet. But don't think of it as so vital. And personally, I think it's the worst choice for a beginner's cycle. Oddly enough, it's often recommended as a good first choice. Primo being virtually non supressive is the best choice IMO.

Don't let convenience and cost confuse the facts. Test is fine. Hey, I'm on HRT and it serves me very well. But if I wanted to do a cycle I sure as hell wouldn't add more test. I'd want as much non suppressive anabolism as possible.

One of these days I'd like to do a 100mg a day Primo depot cycle on top of my HRT and see what happens. :p
 
Indeed.

But it does build MASS like no other. :)

I used ONLY non-aromatizing androgens for my first ENTIRE YEAR of steroid use.

I didn't BLOW UP until I used Testosterone as the BASE to all of my cycles.

SYNERGISM...YUM:)
 
- Ross - said:
Indeed.

But it does build MASS like no other. :)

I used ONLY non-aromatizing androgens for my first ENTIRE YEAR of steroid use.

I didn't BLOW UP until I used Testosterone as the BASE to all of my cycles.

SYNERGISM...YUM:)
Click to expand...

... ross my friend, please elaberate a little more on your "entire year" statement ...​
 
Nelson Montana said:
Everybody knows test is king, right? Well, it wasn't always that way. In fact, test was, and should be considered, a "last resort" What changed?

Right from the start, the purpose of steroids was to avoid many of the androgenic side effects. This is why dianabol was invented. The Russians were already using testosterone but the sides were horrific! Dianbol offered a "kinder, gentler" version. The problem of course was the liver toxicity. But dianabol was never meant to be taken in the dosages taken today.

Deca was the darling of 80's bodybuilders because is was not androgenic. But deca's lack of androgen didn't prevent the nasty side effects which were ironically WORSE due to the fact that the body was left with no androgens. Deca is the "Edsel*" of steroids!

Primobolin, in many ways, is the ultimate steroid. But as many have realize, without SOME androgen, a cycle just doesn't have quite the same kick. This is Primo and d-bol or test was a sweet stack.

Now, back to test...

The reason test has become so popular is mainly for one reason -- it's cheap -- so cheap it isn't even worth counterfiting. Making test cost next to nothing. In fact, a lot of what people think is other drugs from bootleg sources is all bathtub testosterone in varying doses.

Because test is also anabolic it's a viable substitute for superior drugs like Primo. And because pros started taking more and more drugs, test was as good as anything else, especially when you use slin, GH, IGF, clen, T3, lasix, etc, etc etc. It's also why when these "test heads" come off, they lose 50 pounds in 6 months. The weight just isn't solid.

But test is what makes you strong and manly right? Well, yes and no. It's actually "free" test and DHT that does that. This is why winny, mast, proviron and halo make you rock hard. They're all DHT derivitives! And in the case of Proviron and Winny, they increase "free" T by supressing SHBG. Once again, the only non drug that increases "free T' is avenacosides A&B. Not trib. Not tongkat ali. And by the way, Saw Palmetto LOWERS DHT and increases SHBG. IT IS THE WORST SUPPLEMENT A MAN CAN TAKE.

Once again, very ironic that it's in so many "men's formulas."

This shows the ignorance of so much of the supplement industry.

So what's the verdict? No, don't throw away your testosterone just yet. But don't think of it as so vital. And personally, I think it's the worst choice for a beginner's cycle. Oddly enough, it's often recommended as a good first choice. Primo being virtually non supressive is the best choice IMO.

Don't let convenience and cost confuse the facts. Test is fine. Hey, I'm on HRT and it serves me very well. But if I wanted to do a cycle I sure as hell wouldn't add more test. I'd want as much non suppressive anabolism as possible.

One of these days I'd like to do a 100mg a day Primo depot cycle on top of my HRT and see what happens. :p
Click to expand...

nelson i'll let you know....i am running 100mg prop eod along with 200mg primo eod and 50mg winstrol ed.....mmmmmmmmmmmm give me more primo!!!! :qt: :evil:
 
If only primo wasn't so expensive and faked...

I've never used primo, but is anavar comparable?
 
TVG said:
If only primo wasn't so expensive and faked...

I've never used primo, but is anavar comparable?
Click to expand...

anavar is comparable but its even more money than primo...Primo can be gotten fairly cheap now..well not cheap as is cheap but cheaper than in the past...
 
primo blows var out the water imho but var has its place as well...var more or less seems to give me good pumps in the gym which is good while dieting...lther than that it seem to be a waste imo??
 
Var works on a diffrent principle than Primo. It's not very androgenic but var increases creatine synthesis. This is why var was loved by powerlifters. It didn't make you gain weight but it made you strong as a motherfucker!

Remember though, var was big before creatine was available as a supplement. Now that you can get all the creatine you need, var isn't so special IMO. And the dosages needed to really see the benefit start getting into the toxic range.

Incidentally, it's believed Stallone was an Anavar head. Look at him in Rambo. Not big, but hard as nails.

Personally, I'd rather do 25 mgs of D-bol than 50 mgs of var.

Primo on the other hand is the ultimate nitrogen retention drug. It requires hard training and an insane amount of protein but when it's done right...damn! The old timers loved Primo because it produced clean muscle. Bloat and puffiness was considered a detriment! And of course, Arnie loved his Primo!

Ross; it sounds lie you did things right. But I still believe the "mass" from test is due mostly to the increase in water and blood volume which starts to create blood pressure problems. This leads people to take anti-e's to control bloat but they're working against themselves by negating the added weight. Again, supplements can do this -- creatine, NO2, herbal diuretics and my new supp "VIGOR" which is designed to increase red blood cell count.

Vascular Freak; That sounds sweet. I'm curious. My guess is a slow and steady gain without blowing up but lots of separation in the muscles. You should keep most of your gains too without any SERMS. Let us know.
 
will do nelson!!! i have only ran primo a few times and didn't know whether it was the primo giving the results or not...BUT the two cycles with primo in it was the best i have ever ran.... i am running very high amounts of protein and fats and greens with minimal carbs....all from chicken, meat, egg whites, and sashimi....fats from udos oil, nuts, and flax seeds.....
 
Nelson Montana said:
Var works on a diffrent principle than Primo. It's not very androgenic but var increases creatine synthesis. This is why var was loved by powerlifters. It didn't make you gain weight but it made you strong as a motherfucker!

Remember though, var was big before creatine was available as a supplement. Now that you can get all the creatine you need, var isn't so special IMO. And the dosages needed to really see the benefit start getting into the toxic range.

Incidentally, it's believed Stallone was an Anavar head. Look at him in Rambo. Not big, but hard as nails.

Personally, I'd rather do 25 mgs of D-bol than 50 mgs of var.

Primo on the other hand is the ultimate nitrogen retention drug. It requires hard training and an insane amount of protein but when it's done right...damn! The old timers loved Primo because it produced clean muscle. Bloat and puffiness was considered a detriment! And of course, Arnie loved his Primo!

Ross; it sounds lie you did things right. But I still believe the "mass" from test is due mostly to the increase in water and blood volume which starts to create blood pressure problems. This leads people to take anti-e's to control bloat but they're working against themselves by negating the added weight. Again, supplements can do this -- creatine, NO2, herbal diuretics and my new supp "VIGOR" which is designed to increase red blood cell count.

Vascular Freak; That sounds sweet. I'm curious. My guess is a slow and steady gain without blowing up but lots of separation in the muscles. You should keep most of your gains too without any SERMS. Let us know.
Click to expand...

Anavar and Primobolan produce the exact same LOOK--increased muscle hardness, vascularity, striations, definition, etc. HOWEVER....

Anavar is remarkable for STRENGTH, whereas Primobolan is virtually useless for this purpose.

As for Testosterone, it is simply MORE ANABOLIC and ANDROGENIC than most other steroids, and thus, produces much larger gains in strength and muscle mass. I NEVER use Testosterone without an AI, so I don't retain water. Bottom line, Testosterone builds more strength and mass than Primobolan.

However, steroids like Anavar and Primobolan can do things that testosterone NEVER could; HARDNESS, DEFINITION, THIN SKIN...they have a MUCH different purposes.

BUT COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO TRIED RELENTLESSLY to BULK on traditional "cutting steroids"....it just doesn't work, once you reach a certain level of muscular development.
 
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test over 200mg a week gives me unwanted body hair, oily skin ,redish complextion, moon face .puffy look
even with a adex at .5 and if your gonna run adex might as well just run primo or eq instead...
 
this thread might go over better if stated "primo is underrated" cuz I love my test you bastard nelson.lol really though good thread :)
 
well, as you said...we are not knocking test at all...just wondering why it is the BEST...and i feel you on the..for me...i enjoy test at moderate levels...prop at 350mg ew and enanthate at 500mg ew...i like it before i fight with an AI of course...
anyway...on the topic of primo....i got 12 ml's at 200mg/ml right now i wanna throw in :)
 
Ross is right in that primo and var give a similar look via different pathways -- hard, tight, thin skinned.


But here's a hypothetical scenario...

2 identical subjects with identical training, diet, PCT etc.

One does only 1000mgs of primo a week for one year.

The other does only 1000mgs of test a week for one year.

After being off for 4 months, who's gained more muscle?
 
This thread is giving me brain pumps, if blowin my mind up :eek2: . No Test? Is there any form of test that is superior to the others, whats the best to stack with primo?
 
Nelson Montana said:
Ross is right in that primo and var give a similar look via different pathways -- hard, tight, thin skinned.


But here's a hypothetical scenario...

2 identical subjects with identical training, diet, PCT etc.

One does only 1000mgs of primo a week for one year.

The other does only 1000mgs of test a week for one year.

After being off for 4 months, who's gained more muscle?
Click to expand...

TEST!!!!

I speak from EXPERIENCE.

For my first YEAR I ONLY USED non-aromatizing androgens.

Fact is, Testosterone is not only EXTREMELY ANABOLIC, is is also EXTREMELY ANDROGENIC. Thus, it builds TONS OF MASS AND STRENGTH. This is a fact.
 
- Ross - said:
Muscle is muscle.

Nelson and I agree on THIS. :)
Click to expand...

I agree that muscle is muscle but you can't compare Test with Primo at any dose. You can accomplish clean muscle gains with Test if you eat clean and use an AI. The only difference, though, is you will feel better and be stronger with Test than Primo. It's like trying to compare oranges to apples.
 
I'm confused Nelson.
You start a thread about keepable gains and then how gains are gains, doesn't matter about compound and now you're saying that a test cycle yeilds less keepable gains than a primo cycle.

Don't bother explaining, I'm not asking.
 
Very good thread,lots of great info.

I'm currently on week 7 of a 400mg/week Test E cycle.I just started Winny at 50mg ED today.Now this is my first time on test and I'm 39 years old.So far my strenght is up quite a bit,but the results are just ok,who knows maybe they get better in weeks 8-12,and yes my diet and training are very much inline and extremely strict.

This is my third cycle,the first 2 were Primo/Winny.Now it could be because the Primo was Schering and the Winny was Zambons,but the results from those 2 cycles completely blow away the results I'm getting from test.Man I wish I could get some of those Schering Primos again.My 2c.
 
muscle Is muscle when its muscle...

you guys dont relize one thing test creates alot of extra blood volume water retention inside and outside the muscle...cuase alot of muscle but also water and just extraweight in bloat.....even with anti estrogens involved
so when on high test amounts you have to look at the weight gain totals then see how much is muscle how much is water...we all know this becuase guys can gain 5-7lbs in 10 days on test ... no way you can build muscle through protien synthises that fast so it has to be water and blood volume.
So if a guy runs 1 gram of test and gains 30lbs ... how much is increased blood? how much is bloating? how much is water retention inside and outside the muscle? was it half was it less?
was the actual muscle gain 15lbs? 10lbs?
did you gain a little fat eating heavy say 5 lbs?
if so the gains off the test might have been only 10lbs out of 30lbs...
only way to know is when your clean for 6 months lose all the extra water ,fat,estrogen bloat and blood volume ..
(prob is most guys never know becuase they stay on year round or get right back on after 2 months)


now if we run a gram of primo non aromatization
the primo does not cuase the big water gains,the risk of gyno,or heavy blood volume.primos gains are mainly due to protien sythisis building of actual muscle fiber and guys often burn fat so they tone up.
so when a person gains 15lbs off primo at the end of the cycle...most of it is muscle,plus they can eat less calories on primo and not risk even getting fat becuase primo works decent on a lower calorie diet to build muscle so no need for the piling of usless calories.Often primo users get more shape and the skin is tigher .

so comparing test gains to primo is like apples to oranges...

Only way to know is to try it on yourself... primo is expensive even at raw powder prices.... But rumor has it arnold loved the stuff. Noticed arnolds tight skin ,sunking face and lean look above the other guys of his time back in 1975? guys from europe used primo becuase that was available to them eazy and cheap (arnold,franco,surge)... guys in the usa used deca to stack with the dbol (mike katz,lou,whaller)...rumor even has it that frank zane lived with arnold around 1970 to train with him arnold exchanged drug info and zane exchanged diet info... was the secret primo? zane really got more cut towards the mid seventies...who knows....
 
also the simple fact is this test is cheaper then ,primo ,winne,mast,anavar,tbol and even eq

alot of guys in the game can barley even afford a gym membership and cant even keep decent tires on their rusted out ford escort .

if you know what i mean.

the ones with more money spend on better quality body they will build ,wether it be cleaner food or better drugs...
when your a big baller your even doing GH and IGF ...

when your low dollar your scraping for some test and etra large number 3# value meal
 
Thats bullshit. I know alot of guys who went on Test alone and kept 70-100% of their gains, and thats after 6months being clean. If your below your genetic limit, you will keep it, if your over you will lose it no matter what you were on.
 
no1_brawler said:
Thats bullshit. I know alot of guys who went on Test alone and kept 70-100% of their gains, and thats after 6months being clean. If your below your genetic limit, you will keep it, if your over you will lose it no matter what you were on.
Click to expand...
oh jeez let me guess your 18 year old friends going through puberty....

this is talking about adults here no1 like I said wait untill you 23 and done growing then start cycling see how much you keep every cycle..

your genetic limit was that your 18 growing from puberty and just filled out and did a test cycle...big deal...

No1 lets get this straight you did not keep 100% of your gains
unless you still have the test bloat and water retention from the last cycle or maybe your into another cycle.

18 is just a kid man you think your big and macho and running cycles bro .I was their did it done that 10 years ago or while you were still in the second grade...

listen to exp guys man just for once in your life...
 
Nelson i would listen to you more if you did not come across as condescending to people even if they are ass hholes to you.


"would you elaborate or is that all you got" take a lesson from Ross on debating. people are not going to agree with you and they are going to say dumb shit. blow it off and debate it dont call someone a poopie head. just reply to thier answers and leave it at that.
 
Yes, I agree that test is overabused. But it definatley has its place. After all, your body already naturally produces it.

Good point on the cost savings. I think alot of people are using huge amounts of test becuse a 10ml vial is anywhere from 40-100$. Cheap in terms of BB standards. Very cheap!

Primo vs Var. Excellent point, primo is cheaper and NOT liver toxic like Var. Var also punishes your HDL and skyrockets your LDL. Dig up my posts when i was taking 100mgs of var and you'll see what I mean. HDL levels were non existant.

That being said, I still prefer Var over Primo. Why? As my moniker suggests, I am gentically predisposed to androgentic alopecia, and Var does not have a negative impact on my hairline, while Primo almost certainly did. For those that are predisposed to AA, var is a superior choice IMO. Just make sure you monitor and control cholesterol levels properly.
 
shrimp44 said:
how is eq compared to Primo?
Click to expand...

EQ never has nor ever will make any difference in the appearance or quality of my physique. Some people rave about Eq, however it just didnt do anything for me. I've ran it three times in dosages ranging from 400-750mgs/week.
 
Primobolan, in many ways, is the ultimate steroid
Click to expand...

I think it still is, but I don’t think the current iteration of primo is the same quality as the old Sherring (sp) That was made in heaven by angles, you could gain muscle and eat twinkes, it was wonderful, still is, I guess


On Test, well just up your dosage,

Nelson it is a joke, just kidding, about the test anyway.
 
solidspine said:
I think it still is, but I don’t think the current iteration of primo is the same quality as the old Sherring (sp) That was made in heaven by angles, you could gain muscle and eat twinkes, it was wonderful, still is, I guess


On Test, well just up your dosage,

Nelson it is a joke, just kidding,
Click to expand...

i love primo but never by itself...always with a little test for max effect...unless you are a mass monster and just want to lean/harden up....the test is a must to get strength up and gives you a little thickness on top of the primo granite!!
 
chazk said:
oh jeez let me guess your 18 year old friends going through puberty....

this is talking about adults here no1 like I said wait untill you 23 and done growing then start cycling see how much you keep every cycle..

your genetic limit was that your 18 growing from puberty and just filled out and did a test cycle...big deal...

No1 lets get this straight you did not keep 100% of your gains
unless you still have the test bloat and water retention from the last cycle or maybe your into another cycle.

18 is just a kid man you think your big and macho and running cycles bro .I was their did it done that 10 years ago or while you were still in the second grade...

listen to exp guys man just for once in your life...
Click to expand...

Never said im macho or anything for taking juice, i would have rather done it naturally, but i was just in a hurry and the weight wouldn't go up so i did it.
And no not 18yr old guys. My brother for instance was 21 on his first cycle, started at 180lbs, took prop for 8 weeks. Eats around 2500-3000cals a day, doesnt count at all. Gained 22lbs, kept 18lbs and more cut up at end of cycle. Didnt do another cycle for 11 months. Another cycle, same thing, 22lbs, kept 18lbs. Hasnt done a cycle for 6months now and his weight is steady at 215-220lbs.
 
i love primo but never by itself...always with a little test for max effect...unless you are a mass monster and just want to lean/harden up....the test is a must to get strength up and gives you a little thickness on top of the primo granite!!
Click to expand...
Nothing by itself, unless you are just hard up for cash or not serious,


But an Anabolic, and Androgenic, maybe another oral for a kick start and I always take test, some say way too much,


But with primo,


Primo
Test
d-bol,

12 weeks total, great cycle, love it.
 
solidspine said:
Nothing by itself, unless you are just hard up for cash or not serious,


But an Anabolic, and Androgenic, maybe another oral for a kick start and I always take test, some say way too much,


But with primo,


Primo
Test
d-bol,

12 weeks total, great cycle, love it.
Click to expand...

Amen brotha
 
Apples to oranges....1,000mg of Primo VS 1,000mg of Test?? By MY OWN EXPIERENCE..I'd say the Test guy can gain 20-25lbs and the Primo guy can gain 10-15lbs..on the same diet, training,etc...So I guess it really depends what you want

J
ps..we all know our best gains are in our teens/early 20's..when our natural Test is at its highest..hmmmmm
 
Nelson Montana said:
Ross is right in that primo and var give a similar look via different pathways -- hard, tight, thin skinned.


But here's a hypothetical scenario...

2 identical subjects with identical training, diet, PCT etc.

One does only 1000mgs of primo a week for one year.

The other does only 1000mgs of test a week for one year.

After being off for 4 months, who's gained more muscle?
Click to expand...

Tell me you're joking.
 
I do, and always have used, sus as a base and love it. Just my preference.
 
trickster6487 said:
ross, what did you take year around??
Click to expand...

First 2 cycles were 5 week Anavar cycles, 30mgs ED.

Then I ran Dianabol at 20mgs for 6 weeks.

Then I ran my first injectable, which was Equipoise, for about 18 weeks, stacked with Turinabol, then Anavar.

Then I ran Primobolan, and added Winstrol at the end.

ALL BULKING CYCLES.

The MOST weight I ever gained from a NON-testosterone cycle was 10-12lbs.

The first time I used Testosterone I used 50mgs of Testosterone Propionate ED for 6 weeks and gained 20lbs, and UNBELIEVABLE STRENGTH.

Now, I always use Testosterone as a BASE.
 
1Mistake2006 said:
Apples to oranges....1,000mg of Primo VS 1,000mg of Test?? By MY OWN EXPIERENCE..I'd say the Test guy can gain 20-25lbs and the Primo guy can gain 10-15lbs..on the same diet, training,etc...So I guess it really depends what you want

J
ps..we all know our best gains are in our teens/early 20's..when our natural Test is at its highest..hmmmmm
Click to expand...

There are lots of other factors involved there. A 50 year old can take 100 mgs of test a week and have the T level of a 20 year old, but he won't make gains like a 20 year old.

One of those factors is SHBG. It must stay low in order to grow. That's why I believe avenacosides A&B are as important to the anabolically enhanced athlete as protein. And muara puama too, though it's connection with testosterone is not fully understood. The two together just seem to work better.
 
Nelson Montana said:
And in the case of Proviron and Winny, they increase "free" T by supressing SHBG. And by the way, Saw Palmetto LOWERS DHT and increases SHBG. IT IS THE WORST SUPPLEMENT A MAN CAN TAKE.

:p
Click to expand...

can you site even one study that supports either of these 2 claims? I have searched many time over the years and have yet to find one.
 
bilter said:
can you site even one study that supports either of these 2 claims? I have searched many time over the years and have yet to find one.
Click to expand...

Are you serious? As for saw palmetto, there are thousands. It's an alpha reductase inhibitor. Do a search. The thing is, they all think that lowering DHT is a GOOD thing! You have to read between the lines.
 
i am running prop/primo/winstrol....i have var as well would that be better suited for this stack or should i wait 5 weeks and drop the winstrol and add var/masteron combo to the test and primo?????
 
Nelson Montana said:
Are you serious? As for saw palmetto, there are thousands. It's an alpha reductase inhibitor. Do a search. The thing is, they all think that lowering DHT is a GOOD thing! You have to read between the lines.
Click to expand...

You are correct Nelson. :)
 
Nelson Montana said:
Are you serious? As for saw palmetto, there are thousands. It's an alpha reductase inhibitor. Do a search. The thing is, they all think that lowering DHT is a GOOD thing! You have to read between the lines.
Click to expand...

i love DHT but my prostate prob doesn't :evil:
 
OMG Nelson. Do you ever read anything about what you're posting? I assume you just post this stuff off the top of your head to see what happens to it.

The Russians were already using testosterone but the sides were horrific! Dianbol offered a "kinder, gentler" version.
Click to expand...
The Russian's were already using Testosterone and because of the sides Dbol was invented? Do you mean the German's and the Swiss and you just typed Russian by accident? No, I think you just pulled that off the top of your head again. Dbol came long after Ciba was making test from cholesterol in the 30's.

Deca was the darling of 80's bodybuilders because is was not androgenic.
Click to expand...
Nandrolone is not androgenic?

I can't even read the ridiculous writing about one steroid being better for keepable gains, Primo over Test, simply because the you just finished that compelling article about the myth of keepable gains.
I said this before. Just stick to training. You know something about training. Stop writing about things you don't know anything about. Leave the steroid stuff to Ross. At least he's right about some of what he writes.
 
BigCracker said:
Primobolan makes me break out on my chest/back more than any other drug. Nasty, un-poppable, painful zits.
Click to expand...

I'll 2nd that comment. I'm on 600mg/wk of Primo with 150mg/week of test-e and my complexion is awful.

Only 150mg EOD of tren was worse for me as far as acne.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Are you serious? As for saw palmetto, there are thousands. It's an alpha reductase inhibitor. Do a search. The thing is, they all think that lowering DHT is a GOOD thing! You have to read between the lines.
Click to expand...

If you look at it from a PURE muscle building standpoint, then yes lowering DHT is not a good thing.
But there are other factors in play here also, some people are concerned w/ hairloss and prostate enlargement so a minimal reduction in DHT is not of concern for some individuals.
I would prefer to keep my hair and sacrifice a small amount of gains, than to be huge and bald.
That's just my opinion though.
 
Saw Pamento is bad?......that sucks, cause I've been taking it for the first 3 weeks of my cycle :( I heard it was a good thing from more than one person on this board. Should I stop?
 
fasteddie_212 said:
Saw Pamento is bad?......that sucks, cause I've been taking it for the first 3 weeks of my cycle :( I heard it was a good thing from more than one person on this board. Should I stop?
Click to expand...

It's good if you're trying to minimize hairloss, but it will adversly affect your gains.
By how much, who knows.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Are you serious? As for saw palmetto, there are thousands. It's an alpha reductase inhibitor. Do a search. The thing is, they all think that lowering DHT is a GOOD thing! You have to read between the lines.
Click to expand...

I am more interested in the effects of proviron on shbg.
 
Nelson Montana said:
One of these days I'd like to do a 100mg a day Primo depot cycle on top of my HRT and see what happens. :p
Click to expand...

I did almost that amount awhile ago. I did 500mgs of test/week, 600mgs of primo/week, and 100mgs ED of Anavar...I think I used some IGF and MGF too, somewhere in there...it was probably my best cycle ever.
 
first off I have yet to see anyone gaining more on 1000mg of test a week then someone who used 200mg test a week, test amounts are rediculious in these days.

Deca + Dbol alone is a famous stack flex wheeler in his book says thats what he did when he started out, god knows what he did later.
 
NYBodyguard said:
first off I have yet to see anyone gaining more on 1000mg of test a week then someone who used 200mg test a week, test amounts are rediculious in these days.

Deca + Dbol alone is a famous stack flex wheeler in his book says thats what he did when he started out, god knows what he did later.
Click to expand...

i have a different opinion on that....i think for someone who trains average 200mg of test is fine BUT if you know what hardcore training is (and i'm not saying you don't) 1 g of test will give WAY better training sessions and recovery.....strength will keep climbing if you push it and overtraining isn't as realistic as with 200mg test. But i'd rather stick to 500-600 mg test and add in the other half with a good anabolic...much better gains IMO
 
I gained more off 1000mgs/week of test than I did off 200mgs....medically speaking, testosterone follows basically linear dose response curve...meaning the more you take, the more results you get:

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-profiles/testosterone-enanthate.htm

"Testosterones anabolic/androgenic effects are dependant upon the dose administered; usually the higher the dose, the better the results (1)."

Reference 1: J Lab Clin Med. 1995 Mar;125(3):326-33.
 
Anthony Roberts said:
I gained more off 1000mgs/week of test than I did off 200mgs....medically speaking, testosterone follows basically linear dose response curve...meaning the more you take, the more results you get:

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-profiles/testosterone-enanthate.htm

"Testosterones anabolic/androgenic effects are dependant upon the dose administered; usually the higher the dose, the better the results (1)."

Reference 1: J Lab Clin Med. 1995 Mar;125(3):326-33.
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and where are the monsters located exactly, most people here look like total jokes next to the cycles they do you know that I know that (they might not), everyone is using test galore all types and nada, like I said speaking of real results not studies and living life sheep follow sheep style, taking more does nothing other then sides, I gained 8lbs off a test200mg a week cycle and some deca recently, been off for a minute and pretty much didnt lose a thing, are you saying if I did more I would of gained more, well I use to do more I was left with sides and tons of water.
 
NYBodyguard said:
and where are the monsters located exactly, most people here look like total jokes next to the cycles they do you know that I know that (they might not), everyone is using test galore all types and nada, like I said speaking of real results not studies and living life sheep follow sheep style, taking more does nothing other then sides, I gained 8lbs off a test200mg a week cycle and some deca recently, been off for a minute and pretty much didnt lose a thing, are you saying if I did more I would of gained more, well I use to do more I was left with sides and tons of water.
Click to expand...

Yes. that's what I'm saying.
 
chazk said:
the primo does not cuase the big water gains,the risk of gyno,or heavy blood volume.primos gains are mainly due to protien sythisis building of actual muscle fiber

zane exchanged diet info... was the secret primo? zane really got more cut towards the mid seventies...who knows....
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I agree with most of what you're saying, but just to clarify, an increase in blood volume and protein synthesis are ususlly the same thing. No protein synthesis means no increased red blood cell count. Increased red blood cell count equals protein synthesis.

Also. The secret wasn't Primo. It was good genetics...that's it. If it was Primo then every dickwad with a couple of vials of Primo and a half decent training routine would look like Arnold and Frank did.

D
 
alchemist said:
I agree with most of what you're saying, but just to clarify, an increase in blood volume and protein synthesis are ususlly the same thing. No protein synthesis means no increased red blood cell count. Increased red blood cell count equals protein synthesis.

Also. The secret wasn't Primo. It was good genetics...that's it. If it was Primo then every dickwad with a couple of vials of Primo and a half decent training routine would look like Arnold and Frank did.

D
Click to expand...

:p
 
NYBodyguard said:
first off I have yet to see anyone gaining more on 1000mg of test a week then someone who used 200mg test a week, test amounts are rediculious in these days.

Deca + Dbol alone is a famous stack flex wheeler in his book says thats what he did when he started out, god knows what he did later.
Click to expand...
Your statement makes no sense.
Just because you can't handle the high dosages doesn't mean that other people don't benefit from them.
If an individual ran 200mg one cycle and 1000 the next and all things equal w/ both cycles, you can't honestly say that 200 would put on the mass that 1g would.
If low dosage cycles works for you then good.
 
juniorsamples said:
Nelson...Of what does your HRT consist?
Click to expand...

Very mild. 100 mgs of test a week. 1/2 mg a-dex 2-3 times a week. 1500ius of HCG once every other month along with MyogenX. UNLEASHED daily. POST CYCLE once a week. And a bunch of other siupps but that's for other reasons beyond HRT.

My total testosterone is usually around 800 -- a nice healthy/high number for someone in their 20's. (I'm 53). My free test went up 10 points (an increase of 40%) after using the supps so obviously I'm going to stick with that. My estro is 8, which is pretty much perfect and my prolactin is on the very low end of the scale.

The only thing is that LH is low, but that's to be expected. I'm sure anyone who does long cycles has an LH next to nil. I'm going to do a whopping MyogenX cycle and see what effect it has on my LH next time I get a blood test.

Now if only I can get a script for Shering Primo. :p Oh well. Can't get TOO greedy.
 
Mac173 said:
Your statement makes no sense.
Just because you can't handle the high dosages doesn't mean that other people don't benefit from them.
If an individual ran 200mg one cycle and 1000 the next and all things equal w/ both cycles, you can't honestly say that 200 would put on the mass that 1g would.
If low dosage cycles works for you then good.
Click to expand...
whats the point of taking more of a drug if it does nothing for you, and this is not just my case but everyone I know and I know many that went thru the same shit we did high numbers then did lower and got the same if not better results.
 
NYBodyguard said:
whats the point of taking more of a drug if it does nothing for you, and this is not just my case but everyone I know and I know many that went thru the same shit we did high numbers then did lower and got the same if not better results.
Click to expand...
If increasing the dosage didn't help then we would all still be make great gains off of low dosages.
Why wouldn't taking more of a drug do more for you(to a point of course)?
I don't advocate extremely high dosages, but what you're saying still doesn't make any sense.
 
Isn't it a good probability that it's a combination of genetics, diet, and training that dictate whether or not you will benefit from higher doses to a point?

I mean, if you had someone who didn't work out and ate whatever they wanted, then obviously they are not going to put on much muscle whether they are taking 200mg/week or 1g/week... prob the ONLY difference in that case would be an increase in sides.

However, the other extreme, if you had one who worked his ass off in the gym 5 days a week and ate like a true bodybuilder then I believe he would absolutely gain more from the 1g/week (albeit with more sides).

For the people in the middle, their results would probably be somewhere in the middle: as in, if you go put a little workout in 4 days a week and drink your protein shake after your workout and in the morning and thats it and then wonder why your not getting SO MUCH HOOYGER than when you did less drugs, it's most likely because you are not working hard enough on your diet and training, not because simply higher dosages don't help.

Juice mainly works by acting to intensify the mind/muscle connection as well as allowing the stuff you eat to be used more efficiently for muscle growth. If your not going intense in the gym, then you're really not using the added benefit of an intensifed mind/muscle connection, and if your not eating right, then your not using the benefit of increased efficiency of protein synthesis... In other words, I think the harder you train and the more spot on your diet is, then the more juice you can use with increased benefit - and the rest is mostly just genetics.
 
this is a good thread. i think in essence, Nelson is trying to say test should be the base of every cycle at low doses. I agree but i say use synergy. test, winny, tren, is a simple cycle but the results are amazing.
 
lil-swole said:
Isn't it a good probability that it's a combination of genetics, diet, and training that dictate whether or not you will benefit from higher doses to a point?

I mean, if you had someone who didn't work out and ate whatever they wanted, then obviously they are not going to put on much muscle whether they are taking 200mg/week or 1g/week... prob the ONLY difference in that case would be an increase in sides.

However, the other extreme, if you had one who worked his ass off in the gym 5 days a week and ate like a true bodybuilder then I believe he would absolutely gain more from the 1g/week (albeit with more sides).

For the people in the middle, their results would probably be somewhere in the middle: as in, if you go put a little workout in 4 days a week and drink your protein shake after your workout and in the morning and thats it and then wonder why your not getting SO MUCH HOOYGER than when you did less drugs, it's most likely because you are not working hard enough on your diet and training, not because simply higher dosages don't help.

Juice mainly works by acting to intensify the mind/muscle connection as well as allowing the stuff you eat to be used more efficiently for muscle growth. If your not going intense in the gym, then you're really not using the added benefit of an intensifed mind/muscle connection, and if your not eating right, then your not using the benefit of increased efficiency of protein synthesis... In other words, I think the harder you train and the more spot on your diet is, then the more juice you can use with increased benefit - and the rest is mostly just genetics.
Click to expand...

Good post.
 
lil-swole said:
Isn't it a good probability that it's a combination of genetics, diet, and training that dictate whether or not you will benefit from higher doses to a point?

I mean, if you had someone who didn't work out and ate whatever they wanted, then obviously they are not going to put on much muscle whether they are taking 200mg/week or 1g/week... prob the ONLY difference in that case would be an increase in sides.

However, the other extreme, if you had one who worked his ass off in the gym 5 days a week and ate like a true bodybuilder then I believe he would absolutely gain more from the 1g/week (albeit with more sides).

For the people in the middle, their results would probably be somewhere in the middle: as in, if you go put a little workout in 4 days a week and drink your protein shake after your workout and in the morning and thats it and then wonder why your not getting SO MUCH HOOYGER than when you did less drugs, it's most likely because you are not working hard enough on your diet and training, not because simply higher dosages don't help.

Juice mainly works by acting to intensify the mind/muscle connection as well as allowing the stuff you eat to be used more efficiently for muscle growth. If your not going intense in the gym, then you're really not using the added benefit of an intensifed mind/muscle connection, and if your not eating right, then your not using the benefit of increased efficiency of protein synthesis... In other words, I think the harder you train and the more spot on your diet is, then the more juice you can use with increased benefit - and the rest is mostly just genetics.
Click to expand...

I think the assumption is being made that if you're running a g a wk then you are probably training hard and eating right. If not then obviousely this does not apply.
And if that same dedicated bodybuilder lowered the dosage by a fifth, his gains would be minimal compared to the 1g.
 
Mac173 said:
I think the assumption is being made that if you're running a g a wk then you are probably training hard and eating right. If not then obviousely this does not apply.
And if that same dedicated bodybuilder lowered the dosage by a fifth, his gains would be minimal compared to the 1g.
Click to expand...


you mean lowered the dosage TO a fifth :p
But, seriously, yea I agree with what you just said as far as if one has got everything down pat then they would get more gains from more juice (to a point); I think that it takes a lot of ignorance to state otherwise.

And before a troll jumps to state it, yes we know more sides will come with more juice, but we are not talking about that. We are simply coming from a maximal gains perspective, not a perspective of what's always best.
 
lil-swole said:
you mean lowered the dosage TO a fifth :p
But, seriously, yea I agree with what you just said as far as if one has got everything down pat then they would get more gains from more juice (to a point); I think that it takes a lot of ignorance to state otherwise.

And before a troll jumps to state it, yes we know more sides will come with more juice, but we are not talking about that. We are simply coming from a maximal gains perspective, not a perspective of what's always best.
Click to expand...

You're right, I meant to a fifth.
I think we're all arguing over the obvious here.
 
no1_brawler said:
Thats bullshit. I know alot of guys who went on Test alone and kept 70-100% of their gains, and thats after 6months being clean. If your below your genetic limit, you will keep it, if your over you will lose it no matter what you were on.
Click to expand...


I have never met 1 person that used test and kept 100% of their gains......it's impossible. 70% can be achievable in my opinion but I wouldn't say much more after that due to the bloat effect..........
 
1Mistake2006 said:
Apples to oranges....1,000mg of Primobolan - methenolone - VS 1,000mg of Test?? By MY OWN EXPIERENCE..I'd say the Test guy can gain 20-25lbs and the Primo guy can gain 10-15lbs..on the same diet, training,etc...So I guess it really depends what you want

J
ps..we all know our best gains are in our teens/early 20's..when our natural Test is at its highest..hmmmmm
Click to expand...


This is a great thread by the way..........

I agree with what your saying but just wanted to add that after the cycle you're only going to keep 10-15lbs from the test cycle while you will keep almost as much as you gained 9-14lbs from primo. Therefore they are equally the same at the end of the cycle.
 
Doesn't the key to what results you get while on test have more to do with each individuals body chemistry (related sides) and even more importantly their diet. If you were to run a very clean, low carb diet and keep you Kcal intake at the normal range of 2000 to 3000 couldn't you see more quality gains and get the hard look?
 
NYBB - try some proviron with your increased test and you'll see a difference.

The older you are the greater the percentage of test (endogenous or exogenous) that your body will try to bind up and render biologically unavailable with increaed s.h.b.g. - this is homeostasis at work. you take more test, your body makes more s.h.b.g.

everyone ~30 or over should be including proviron (or avena sativa) with their test - made a huge difference for me.
 
Mavafanculo said:
NYBB - try some proviron with your increased test and you'll see a difference.

The older you are the greater the percentage of test (endogenous or exogenous) that your body will try to bind up and render biologically unavailable with increaed s.h.b.g. - this is homeostasis at work. you take more test, your body makes more s.h.b.g.

everyone ~30 or over should be including proviron (or avena sativa) with their test - made a huge difference for me.
Click to expand...


hair starts falling out with proviron and test like rain in a hurricane
 
Mrpumped said:
Now this is the most retarded thing I've heard yet.
Click to expand...

+2.

no disrespect nelson but you're generalizing your ass off concerning test and as I've seen you do concerning deca durabolin also

test is excellent to use as a BASE for most all cycles imo
and as far as the gains not being 'solid' that's seriously not true.
 
I think what really matters is we have a 10 page thread with almost 3000 vews. It got people talking,looking and getting involved. Pure genius!
 
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