quick question about bb rows

[heavydutyhit]

A few things I would like to point out here. Anatomically speaking, a "palms facing up" grip places the Biceps Brachii muscles in their dominate position, as is why straight bar curls are regarded as the "end all be all" for building up the biceps. The biceps are still used indirectly when using an overhand or "palms facing down" grip, but the majority of the work load is placed on the Brachialis and Brachioradialis muscles. The Brachialis is directly underneath the lateral head of the Biceps Brachii. Most people have severely underdeveloped Brachialis muscles which fail out when doing almost any type of overhand row. Sense the pain they experience is directly underneath the Biceps Brachii, they assume their Biceps are failing out. Let me again stress the fact that a "palms facing up" grip places the Biceps Brachii muscles in their dominate position. This is one reason why Dorian Yates tore his Biceps doing undergrip barbell rows.

Additionally, allow me to address doing rows with a quick and powerful cadence. Again remember that you are not working in opposition to the barbell, you are working against the force of gravity. Gravity is exerting a force on the mass of the barbell. For the barbell to move upwards in opposition to the force of gravity, an opposing force of greater magnitude must be applied to the barbell. In physics, force is defined as that which can cause an object with mass to accelerate. Physics additionally defines work as the amount of energy transferred by a force acting through a distance. Let me also point out that the force of gravity on an object at the Earth's surface is directly proportional to the object's mass. This is of course why it takes more force to move more weight.

Now that the relationship of these fundamental physics principles to "lifting weights" have been explained, let me make my point.

It up to you as the lifter/bodybuilder to determine what your reason is for being in the gym. If you are there doing barbell rows because you have decided you just want to see how much weight you can move against the force of gravity, then who gives a shit how many OUTSIDE FORCES come in to assist with the movement. Pull that barbell as fast and as sloppily as you possibly can! I guarantee you will be "able to handle" more weight than myself and many other top bros here. Congratulations!

If, HOWEVER, your goal is to stimulate as many muscle fibers as possible within the muscles in your back so that one day you are as thick as you are wide, then you must make your BACK do the WORK! The only way to make sure your back muscles do the WORK required to apply the FORCE needed to move the barbell in opposition to the force of gravity, is to REMOVE ALL OUTSIDE FORCES! What outside forces am I referring to? Mainly...., MOMENTUM! When doing any type of weight lifting movement, momentum is an outside force which will assist in the motion whether you realize it or not, if a fast "powerful" cadence is used.

If you complete the concentric portion of the rep with a controlled and deliberate 2 second motion, hold the contraction for a 1-2 second count and then lower the barbell through the eccentric portion of the rep with a controlled and deliberate 2-3 second motion, ensuring a full stretch at the bottom before repeating, then you will ensure that is is mainly your back muscles which are applying the FORCE to the barbell. This will also ensure that you achieve MAXIMAL fiber recruitment within your back muscles. More fiber recruitment = more growth stimulation. This type of lifting WILL drain the shit out of you! Since you are using more of your muscle tissue over a greater length of time, this will create a greater demand for oxygen. You will be gasping for wind once you reach failure with this training method, but that means you placed a high demand on your bodys resources. This is what will shock you body into changing. That is why a wise man once said..., "You can train long, or you can train hard, but you cannot do both."

Besides..., do you go to the gym to stimulate your ego..., or do you go the gym to stimulate muscle growth?

 

[lockdownd7]

Are you saying doing explosive rows with near perfect form is not as good? I have kinda always wondered if I should do them slower or faster. Right now I do them like I'm basically doing power cleans except keep my back slightly above parallel to the floor through the whole movement. If I wasn't careful I would probably knock myself over hitting my chest and I think the hardest part is slowing the bar down. I seem to find that any movement done slow with less weight or for a lot of reps only makes me feel dead for the next hour, but leaves me filling fine after that.

I see no need to train rows explosively. Even if you have great form and are getting proper activation of the target muscles, all you're doing is shortening the amount of time under tension. That doesn't mean you have to go super slow, but there's no reason to do them quickly.

 

[ceo]

A few things I would like to point out here. Anatomically speaking, a "palms facing up" grip places the Biceps Brachii muscles in their dominate position, as is why straight bar curls are regarded as the "end all be all" for building up the biceps. The biceps are still used indirectly when using an overhand or "palms facing down" grip, but the majority of the work load is placed on the Brachialis and Brachioradialis muscles. The Brachialis is directly underneath the lateral head of the Biceps Brachii. Most people have severely underdeveloped Brachialis muscles which fail out when doing almost any type of overhand row. Sense the pain they experience is directly underneath the Biceps Brachii, they assume their Biceps are failing out. Let me again stress the fact that a "palms facing up" grip places the Biceps Brachii muscles in their dominate position. This is one reason why Dorian Yates tore his Biceps doing undergrip barbell rows.

This is the point I was going to make as well. I probably wouldn't have gone into as much detail...so thank you HDHIT.

 

[the.gladiator1987]

A few things I would like to point out here. Anatomically speaking, a "palms facing up" grip places the Biceps Brachii muscles in their dominate position, as is why straight bar curls are regarded as the "end all be all" for building up the biceps. The biceps are still used indirectly when using an overhand or "palms facing down" grip, but the majority of the work load is placed on the Brachialis and Brachioradialis muscles. The Brachialis is directly underneath the lateral head of the Biceps Brachii. Most people have severely underdeveloped Brachialis muscles which fail out when doing almost any type of overhand row. Sense the pain they experience is directly underneath the Biceps Brachii, they assume their Biceps are failing out. Let me again stress the fact that a "palms facing up" grip places the Biceps Brachii muscles in their dominate position. This is one reason why Dorian Yates tore his Biceps doing undergrip barbell rows.

Additionally, allow me to address doing rows with a quick and powerful cadence. Again remember that you are not working in opposition to the barbell, you are working against the force of gravity. Gravity is exerting a force on the mass of the barbell. For the barbell to move upwards in opposition to the force of gravity, an opposing force of greater magnitude must be applied to the barbell. In physics, force is defined as that which can cause an object with mass to accelerate. Physics additionally defines work as the amount of energy transferred by a force acting through a distance. Let me also point out that the force of gravity on an object at the Earth's surface is directly proportional to the object's mass. This is of course why it takes more force to move more weight.

Now that the relationship of these fundamental physics principles to "lifting weights" have been explained, let me make my point.

It up to you as the lifter/bodybuilder to determine what your reason is for being in the gym. If you are there doing barbell rows because you have decided you just want to see how much weight you can move against the force of gravity, then who gives a shit how many OUTSIDE FORCES come in to assist with the movement. Pull that barbell as fast and as sloppily as you possibly can! I guarantee you will be "able to handle" more weight than myself and many other top bros here. Congratulations!

If, HOWEVER, your goal is to stimulate as many muscle fibers as possible within the muscles in your back so that one day you are as thick as you are wide, then you must make your BACK do the WORK! The only way to make sure your back muscles do the WORK required to apply the FORCE needed to move the barbell in opposition to the force of gravity, is to REMOVE ALL OUTSIDE FORCES! What outside forces am I referring to? Mainly...., MOMENTUM! When doing any type of weight lifting movement, momentum is an outside force which will assist in the motion whether you realize it or not, if a fast "powerful" cadence is used.

If you complete the concentric portion of the rep with a controlled and deliberate 2 second motion, hold the contraction for a 1-2 second count and then lower the barbell through the eccentric portion of the rep with a controlled and deliberate 2-3 second motion, ensuring a full stretch at the bottom before repeating, then you will ensure that is is mainly your back muscles which are applying the FORCE to the barbell. This will also ensure that you achieve MAXIMAL fiber recruitment within your back muscles. More fiber recruitment = more growth stimulation. This type of lifting WILL drain the shit out of you! Since you are using more of your muscle tissue over a greater length of time, this will create a greater demand for oxygen. You will be gasping for wind once you reach failure with this training method, but that means you placed a high demand on your bodys resources. This is what will shock you body into changing. That is why a wise man once said..., "You can train long, or you can train hard, but you cannot do both."

Besides..., do you go to the gym to stimulate your ego..., or do you go the gym to stimulate muscle growth?

Damn good post bro, basically you use the same amount of muscle to lift the weight fast or slow but you are doing it for longer when you go slower with the reps. The muscle is under the same tension for longer.

 

[heavydutyhit]

Damn good post bro, basically you use the same amount of muscle to lift the weight fast or slow but you are doing it for longer when you go slower with the reps. The muscle is under the same tension for longer.

Not exactly. When an initial "jerking" type force is applied to accelerate the barbell upward, all kinds of outside forces come in to accomplish this. Additionally, a greater load is placed on the tendons. This is very dangerous, a reason enough to NOT lift this way. There IS an initial forceful contraction of the back muscles, but it subsides to a great degree once the barbell has gained momentum. Once the barbell has been accelerated upward and is moving WITH momentum, less force is required to keep it moving. Therefore, less work is required to keep it moving. Since your back is performing less work, there is a decreased percentage of muscle fibers doing the work, therefore LESS muscle tissue is used.

Secondly when you allow gravity to return the barbell to the bottom of the ROM, your back muscles go into a semi-relaxed state. There is NOWHERE NEAR the tension involved with fast lifting as there is with CONTROLLED lifting. With a fast and sloppy movement, there are various degrees of tension throughout the ROM and their fluctuations are quite erratic. The key to 100% fiber recruitment (or at least as close as possibly to 100%) is CONTINUOUS TIME UNDER TENSION. Any "break" in tension, even for a fraction of a second, will only decrease the efficiency of the exercise, and decrease the percentage of total muscle fibers recruited. The only way to ensure continuous time under tension, is to eliminate the erratic fluctuations of tension by SLOWING DOWN and controlling the movement of the barbell!!


Lastly realize that all of these things I am recommending you DO NOT do, make the lift EASIER for the target muscle group!! Conversely, all of the things I am recommending you DO DO make the lift HARDER for the target muscle group!! Constantly completing physical activities that are well within your physical ability will NOT warrant a change! You must constantly FORCE your INDIVIDUAL muscle groups to attempt activity that they cannot possibly accomplish to trigger the body's growth mechanism!


P.S. I apologize for the length of most of my posts, but I just want to help people gather a more in depth understanding of pertinent information that most individuals do not have access to.

 

[the.gladiator1987]

Oh ok got it, so shoulkd i use slow form for every lift i do?

 

[trauck1506]

Oh ok got it, so shoulkd i use slow form for every lift i do?

That's what I was getting at, but the only difference between this though would be the fact that when you are at the top of the movement is when the lats are most incorporated(correct me if I'm wrong).

Aren't there more fast twitch muscle fibers recruited though? If you only had to do slow movements to recruit more muscle fibers then west side and others like it wouldn't exist. However I'm not sure that for Rows doing it fast is as good an idea either.

 

[heavydutyhit]

Aren't there more fast twitch muscle fibers recruited though?

Sigh.....,

Ok.., there is a common misconception among those who lift weights of what exactly the difference is between "fast" and "slow" twitch muscle fibers. Again the majority of these common misconceptions could be avoided if one would acquire their knowledge from text books and medical journals as opposed to magazines. "Fast Twitch" and "Slow Twitch" are two terms used by some to differentiate between the "two classifications" of skeletal muscle fibers.

In reality there are four skeletal muscle fiber classifications. In the medical community they are classified as follows: Type I, Type IIa, Type IIx, and Type IIb. The different fiber types are broken up into these different classifications based on many different factors including which type of energy metabolism is used, ability to create force, resistance to fatigue, mitochondrial density, size of motor neuron, capillary density, myosin properties, and others. I bring this up to illustrate the fact that understanding human muscular anatomy/physiology and how it relates to bodybuilding is a very in depth and scientific endeavor. And when it is overly simplified (as they do in magazines), too much information is left out, and this leads to misconception of principles. Now allow me to answer your question.

Basically you are concerned that if you train with a slow controlled ROM throughout each set, you will be using your "slow twitch"(Type I) muscle fibers right? WRONG! While it is true that your "fast twitch" (Type IIb) fibers are the ones with the greatest growth potential, training with various speeds will do NOTHING to shift emphasis from one fiber type to the other. It is impossible. The main reason these fibers are split up into two main categories with Type II split into three subcategories is because of the type of activity they support. Type I (slow twitch) fibers support AEROBIC activity. Type II (fast twitch) fibers support ANAEROBIC activity. Lifting weights is ANAEROBIC, so you are ALWAYS using your Type II fibers. Let me explain why. Each fiber type has a maximum duration of use so to speak due to the type of activity which they are used for. They are as follows:

Type I = Hours and Hours (aerobic)
Type IIa = <30 minutes (long term anaerobic)
Type IIx = <5 minutes (short term anaerobic)
Type IIb = <60 seconds (short term anaerobic)

In an attempt to simplify all of the complexities of this topic, allow me to give you a generalized example here. When doing a nice controlled set with a 2 sec concentric phase, 1 sec hold in the fully contracted position, and a 3 sec eccentric phase, your set will last a maximum of 54 seconds, and that's when doing 9 reps. This time under tension still falls within the 60 second time limit of the Type IIb fibers. Also, since your time under tension was longer, you recruited a higher number of those fibers, thereby making your set way more efficient with regards to your goal of stimulating as much muscle growth as possible.

So according to vast scientific research on the subject of human kinesiology, skeletal muscle physiology, and biomechanics, if you want to stimulate individual muscle groups into growing, then YES you should use a controlled deliberate cadence and ROM with EVERY exercise you do!

If you simply read a magazine, pick up a few new terms and then don't actually seek addition information so that you understand the principles behind the ideas for which you are seeking, then you are not educating yourself at all. And if you then apply these new terms/ideas without that additional information, then you are simply following advice/commandments from periodicals based on faith. There is a word for that. It is called religion. Bodybuilding is not a religion. It is a science.

 

[heavydutyhit]

So did these guys that wanted this info just vanish into thin air? All kinds of questions and then POOF! lol.

 

[the.gladiator1987]

So did these guys that wanted this info just vanish into thin air? All kinds of questions and then POOF! lol.

Hey bro, thanks for all the info. This really helps me understand everything.

I didnt go anywhere lol just didnt see your reply last time. So if you keep the set under 60 seconds no matter how fast or slow you lift the weight your working the typeIIb fibers?

What happens if you work a set over a minute and work the typeIIx fibers? Do you still get growth?

Thanks for all the info again bro! K to you!