Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply
puritysourcelabs
UGL OZ
UGFREAK
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsUGL OZUGFREAK

Prostate cancer from test. ALL MUST READ!

"- multiple ways of promoting muscle growth;
- nice, even temporary effect on sex life;
- nice CNS stimulation; "


Test is able to promote "growth" through multiple pathways because some of it converts to DHT and estrogen. Take proscar to prevent DHT and you lose a large amount of the CNS and sex-drive stimulation...completely suppress estrogen with armidex and you lose the increased leverage and "instant mass" from the estrogen bloat. When I factor in the cost of full suppression of these sides, and resultant loss of some of the effectiveness, a combo of non-aromatizing androgens (at least for me) is more effective and about the same cost. While test may be the best choice when used alone, intelligent stacking of other drugs can give the same multi-faceted approach to muscle growth.

One other note: not all pros use very high dose test as the base for their cycles. I know this for a fact first-hand. Yes alot of them do, but there are some top level guys out there who are not big fans of test.
 
panerai said:
So, you are suggesting that on a cycle of Test, supplementing with, let's say, Masteron, will prevent any problems with prostate in a future?

I was more taking a general look at steroids, prostate problems and the roles of DHT and Estradiol. Since both estrogenic and androgenic are needed to promote BPH, I thought it important to point out that 1) DHT is not an isolated culprit and 2) non-aromatizable compounds (when used exclusively) may carry a reduced risk over estrogenic ones.

To answer your question, Masteron alone instead of testosterone would logically carry far lower risk of BPH, despite the fact that it is a potent injectable DHT derrivative.

- Bill Llewellyn
 
GaryWary said:


Yes and it feels mighty weird. I have had three....

I have also had about 10 cystoscopy's (tube about 10mm shoved all ALL the way up the uretha and into the bladder (I had Bladder cancer twice)....

Ughhhh I hate when they stick the finger way up there.

I had it done once along time ago and I felt violated!!!!!
 
Hugh Gellatts,

You oversimplifying things, we still don't know a lot, and Test is Test.
Check out this study...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Testosterone at high concentrations interacts with the human androgen receptor similarly to dihydrotestosterone.
Endocrinology 1990 Feb;126(2):1165-72 (ISSN: 0013-7227)

Grino PB; Griffin JE; Wilson JD [Find other articles with these Authors]
Department of Internal Medicine, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas 75235-8857.

Testosterone and dihydrotestosterone are believed to exert their androgenic effects by interacting with a single intracellular receptor protein in androgen target tissues. During fetal life, however, testosterone mediates the virilization of the Wolffian ducts into the epididymis, vas deferens, and seminal vesicles, whereas the urogenital sinus and external genitalia require the in situ conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone to undergo male development. The reason why the signal provided by testosterone needs to be amplified in some androgen target tissues but not in others remains an enigma. To provide insight into the different actions of these androgens we studied their interaction with the human androgen receptor in fibroblasts cultured from the genital skin of a patient with 5 alpha-reductase deficiency. Dihydrotestosterone was formed in negligible amounts in these cells, and in some experiments the residual 5 alpha-reductase activity was further blocked with the 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor finasteride. Saturation analysis in fibroblast monolayers disclosed similar amounts of binding with testosterone and dihydrotestosterone, and the affinity of binding of dihydrotestosterone was, on the average, about 2-fold greater than that of testosterone. [3H]Testosterone also exhibited a 5-fold faster dissociation rate from the receptor than [3H]dihydrotestosterone. In thermolability experiments the [3H]testosterone-receptor complex displayed marked instability at 42 C with 2 nM [3H] testosterone, whereas with 20 nM [3H]testosterone, receptor stability was similar to that seen with [3H]dihydrotestosterone. In up-regulation experiments, 2 nM [3H]testosterone produced a 34% increase in specific androgen receptor binding after 24 h, whereas 20 nM [3H]testosterone produced an average increase of 64%. Our results suggest that the weaker androgenic potency of testosterone compared to that of dihydrotestosterone resides in its weaker interaction with the androgen receptor, most clearly demonstrable as an increase in the dissociation rate of testosterone from the receptor. When present in relatively high concentrations, however, testosterone overcomes this defect by mass action.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS).

--------------------------------------------
 
I am not saying that DHT is what causes the anabolic effect in muscle tissue, I am saying that DHT causes alot of the nervous system stimulation you get from test. When I have used test with proscar I got bigger but didn't get much stronger...without proscar I was alot more aggressive and made good strength gains. Of course the lack of DHT could be made up for by adding a steroid that does give good CNS stim, like winstrol or anavar. All I am saying is that by preventing the test from converting to DHT you are taking away one of its modes of action.
 
And what I'm saying is that Testosteron, not converted to DHT in high enough doses will produce same stimulatory effect on CNS, plus great anabolic effect.
So, even on high doses of aromatise inibitors, you still will get greater IGF-1 increase, and on high doses of Test + Finasteride/Saw Palmetto, you still will get better stimulation of CNS then from any other anabolics.
As for anabolic effect in muscles, forget it, it's beyong comparison...
 
DHT ...is it all BAD??

I think this article sums it up better than I could every try, so I will save my typing for later.



DHT, is it all BAD??




A considerable chunk of my work day is always spent answering people’s questions about prohormones and steroids. Of course, one of the biggest concerns people have is about estrogen and estrogen related side effects. Right behind that however are questions about DHT. It seems that people have the misconception that DHT is some evil androgen by product that serves no purpose in the body but to make our prostates blow up and our hair fall out.

The real situation is of course much more complex. DHT is one of those good guy / bad guy hormones that is sorely misunderstood. For many people, it is NOT something that you want to reduce or eliminate in the body. For some others though, keeping DHT levels under control is probably a prudent course of action. Knowing the facts about DHT will help you decide just which group you belong to.

Testosterone is a prohormone?

The main androgen secreted by the testes is of course testosterone. However, in most of the body, the androgenic signal is not carried through by testosterone. In these tissues, which include the brain (CNS), skin, genitals – practically everything but muscle – the active androgen is actually DHT. Testosterone in this case simply acts as a prohormone that is converted to the active androgen DHT by the action of the enzyme 5alpha reductase (5-AR).

5-AR is concentrated heavily in practically every androgen dependent area of the body except for skeletal muscle. This results in very little testosterone actually getting through to these parts of the body to bind to androgen receptors. Instead, it is quickly transformed into DHT, which then interacts with receptors.

This transformation serves a very important biological function in these tissues. You see, DHT is a much stronger androgen than testosterone – it binds about 3-5 times more strongly to the androgen receptor. If you took away 5-AR from these tissues and blocked the formation of DHT, then you would see some dramatic changes in physiology.

A good case in point is demonstrated in male pseudohermaphroditism due to congenital 5-AR deficiency. This is a relatively rare disorder, however it is actually quite common in the Dominican Republic. In this disorder, males are born with little or no 5-AR enzyme. They have ambiguous genitalia and are often raised as girls. When puberty occurs, their testosterone levels elevate normally although their DHT levels remain very low. Their musculature develops normally like that of other adults, however, they end up with little or no pubic / body hair and underdeveloped prostate and penis. Their libido and sexual function is often disrupted also.

Testosterone is the active androgen in muscle

Skeletal muscle is unique from other androgen dependent tissues in the body. It actually contains little or no 5-AR, so little or no DHT is actually formed in the muscle. In addition to this, any DHT that is formed, or that is already present in the blood and travels to the muscle, is quickly deactivated by an enzyme called 3alpha-hydroxysteroid reductase (3a-HSD).

So at least as far as muscle is concerned, testosterone is the primary active androgen. This is not to say that administering exogenous DHT is not without any anabolic effect. It actually does have some anabolic activity in the muscle, albeit significantly weaker than that of an equal amount of testosterone. This is due to its quick breakdown by 3a-HSD into the weak metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3a,17b-diol. If this enzyme were somehow blocked, it is likely that DHT would exhibit very potent anabolic effects on muscle.

It is important to understand that even though testosterone is the active androgen in muscle, and DHT exhibits relatively little direct anabolic effects on muscle in men, DHT is still very important for the full performance enhancement effects from testosterone. What I specifically mean here are the effects of DHT on the central nervous system, which lead to increased neurological efficiency (strength), and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress - not to mention optimal sexual function and libido.

I have heard several anecdotal reports of individuals who have stacked testosterone with proscar (a 5-AR inhibitor) and have noticed significantly reduced performance enhancement effects. What’s going on here? We know it couldn’t be due to the inhibition of the direct anabolic activity of testosterone on muscle anabolism. Most likely it is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the body that contribute to the ergogenic effects, specifically the CNS, which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors (such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver.

Anti – Estrogen effects of DHT

One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take proscar learn this the hard way – by developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT’s protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification – bitch tits!

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production – testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to be discussed in further detail in the next section.

DHT, estrogen, and the prostate

When it comes to sex hormones, few things are as misunderstood by the general consumer as the relationship of the prostate to DHT. The inaccurate and overly simplistic attitude that DHT is responsible for prostate hypertrophy, and even prostate cancer predominates amongst most people.

The real situation is, of course, much more complex. One must understand that there are marked differences between healthy prostate growth (developmental growth), prostate growth due to BPH, and cancerous prostate growth.

The first period of prostate growth, deemed developmental growth, is connected to puberty and the testicular secretion of androgens. This takes the prostate from its prepubertal dormancy to the normal sized, healthy, and functional prostate gland of an adult. During the early and mid adult years the prostate stays at this stage, despite the constant high levels of androgens in the body. However, if androgens are blocked in the body then the adult prostate will shrink in size. This can occur by castration, or even by blockade of 5-AR (recall that DHT is the active androgen in the prostate).

Later in life, there is often a second stage of growth. This growth is deemed benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and this growth occurs in a wholly different hormonal environment than that of developmental growth. Evidence is mounting that the existence of a high estrogen / androgen ratio – a condition common in older men – is highly correlated to the development of BPH.

Experimental studies have shown the inability of androgens with saturated A rings (DHT related) to induce an initial condition of prostate hypertrophy. These compounds are non-aromatizable. Aromatizable androgens on the other hand, such as testosterone or androstenedione can induce hyperplasic modifications of the prostate of monkeys, but these effects are reversed by the addition of an aromatase inhibitor.

So apparently, estrogen is a causative factor in BPH or, probably more accurately, estrogen in the presence of a minimum, permissive amount of androgen.

None of this may come as news to many of you, but I bet that very few of you know that DHT can actually be used to treat BPH!! How can it do that? It basically does this by replacing the testosterone in the body, which then has the effect of reducing the amount of estrogen in the body. As I started to explain before, DHT is a strong androgen that will signal the pituitary to decrease the production of gonadotropins. The decrease in gonadotropins will then cause less testosterone to be produced which will in turn cause the estrogen levels to drop. The resulting change in the hormonal milieu (high DHT, low estrogen) then apparently results in a regression of BPH.

The clinical application of this theory is discussed in US patent 5,648,350 "Dihydrotestosterone for use in androgenotherapy". The following illustrates the results:

"In 27 subjects in which the plasma DHT level was controlled, so as to modulate the administered doses, said levels have been increased to 2.5 to 6 ng/ml. There resulted a decrease in gonadotrophy as well as in the plasma levels of testosterone which exceeded at least 1.5 ng/ml (from 0.5 to 1.4 according to the case); as to the estradiol plasma levels, these decreased by 50%.

Among this group of subjects, the volume of the prostate diminished significantly, as was evaluated by ultrasound and by PSA (Prostate Specific Antigen). The mean volume of the prostates was from 31.09.+-.16.31 grams before treatment and from 26.34.+-.12.72 grams after treatment, for a mean reduction of 15.4%, the treatment having a mean duration of 1.8 years with DHT (P=0.01)."

This kind of flies in the face of the traditional thinking concerning BPH now doesn’t it?

Conclusion

People have a natural tendency to classify things as either good or bad, with no gray areas. DHT (like estrogen) has recently been on everyone’s bad list, and is often considered to be a hormone that serves no function in the body except to cause harm. As you can see, this view is far from the truth. In my opinion, the widespread use of 5-AR inhibitors such as Proscar as a prophylactic agent for people that really don’t need it should be reconsidered. So give DHT a break. I now pronounce June "DHT Appreciation Month". Thank you.

by Pat Arnold
 
So apparently, estrogen is a causative factor in BPH or, probably more accurately, estrogen in the presence of a minimum, permissive amount of androgen.

Great post Mister X.

So staying on arimidex year round will help ensure a healthy prostate?
 
I work at the biggest cancer hospital in Brazil for 11 years and I must have seen more than 500 radical prostatectomys( sp?)an as much via transuretral. I have never seen a case as described above.I know it can happen, but I don't think at this point we can name a culprit, as knowledge in this matter is still insufficient. I'll consult with all urology surgeons I know and will get back on this.
 
Top Bottom