No wonder Michael Moore loves the UAW

[75th]

By the way, looks like they realized how idiotic they were:

UAW Now Says Marines Can Park In Lot
Foreign Cars, Bush Bumper Stickers Previously Not Welcome

POSTED: 7:01 pm EST March 14, 2005
UPDATED: 7:17 pm EST March 14, 2005

After telling Marine reservists who drive foreign vehicles or display pro-President Bush bumper stickers they no longer could use a parking lot at the United Auto Workers headquarters, union officials have changed their minds.

The union, which has offices near a Marine Corps Reserve Center in Detroit, reversed its decision after some people said it reflected a lack of support for the Marines and the service of reservists.

"I made the wrong call on the parking issue and I have notified the Marine Corps that all reservists are welcome to park at Solidarity House as they have for the past 10 years," UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said in a statement released by the union.

Gettelfinger noted that he had served in the Marine Corps Reserves.

Officials for the Marine Corps Reserve Center could not immediately be reached for comment.

The UAW has a history of barring foreign-made cars from its lots.

Complete Statement From UAW

Here is the statement that Local 4 received Monday by UAW President Gettelfinger on Marine Reservists parking at UAW headquarters.

"I have reconsidered and reversed my decision not to allow Marine reservists to park non-union made vehicles or vehicles displaying Bush stickers at Solidarity House on weekends.

"Some people may have thought my orginal decision reflected a lack of support for the Marine Corps and the service of Marine reservists.

"That certainly was not my intention. Having served in the Marine Corps Reserves myself, I fully appreciate the sacrifices and contributions made by America's reservists, National Guard members and active duty military personnel and their families.

"That said, I made the wrong call on the parking issue, and I have notified the Marine Corps that all reservists are welcome to park at Solidarity House as they have for the past 10 years.

"I regret that the controversy over this decision has overshadowed the many good things the UAW and our members are doing to support and express our appreciation to America's service men and women and veterans."

 

[Mr. dB]

wasnt tierra del fuego car an AMC model

Maybe you're thinking of the Renault Fuego. Renaults were sold in America by AMC at the time.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

The company that you worked for for 29.9 years just fired you..1 month short of collecting a pension..too fucking bad. You should have worked someplace else.

Hey man, life is hard, should have foregone the pension and invested elsewhere. Take repsonsibility for your own retirement, don't wait for your corporate mommy and daddy to do it, ya heard?

The company that you worked for just locked you out of your 401K as its value tanked and wiped out 90% of your savings...too fucking bad. You should have invested someplace else.

Diversify. Rule #1 of investing. Let's get on to the next whine.

The power company manipulated the states power grid...causing rates to rise 500%....too fucking bad. Have a wood stove handy next time.

See, this only works when there is a monopoly on power, which I would not endorse. Nutty ass.

The doctor accidently cut off your legs during surgery. You sue and only collect $10,000 because of lawsuit caps in place. Waaaa!! Go get a job as a side show freak...

The lawsuit solution: Loser pays. Done. No caps.

All of your kids have mercuray(sp) poisioning from drinking contaminated water. Waaaa!!! Give them Sunny Delight next time.

Mercury. Yes, this happens all the time.

Your a single mom with 2 kids and a catastrophic illness wipes out your life savings but the new bankruptcy law says "Pay Up Bitch!!"

Yes, all those single moms with massive life savings. LOL.

Here's the thing bor: Life is unfair as shit. My best friend was a good kid, good grades, good athlete....everyone loved him....but he still died at 16. My cousin is a "dykes on bikes" lesbian, alcoholic, chainsmoker, shitbird. She won $8M in the lottery a while back.

Shit happens, bor, and you can't legislate that away. Not everyone can be born with every advantage, and we do more harm than good when we try to "equalize" things.

After weak gov't oversight massive stock market scandals caused your portfolio to implode and pensions are a thing of the past. But at least you have your social secu..no wait. President skywalker said the nation can no longer afford it after spending 500 billion to rebuild "insert Middle Eastern country here". Waaaa!! just cut your throat already old man....

President Skywalker would cancel Social Security ASAP. Wouldn't even be an issue.

And my platform would be like this:


My government will protect your rights, your individual rights: Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness...and the ones in the Bill of Rights.

Other than that, this life is pretty tough, so you better do your best. We'll give you maximum freedom to do that....and that's it.

 

[d3track]

mts

you're setting up my portfolio......

 

[Razorguns]

My government will protect your rights, your individual rights: Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness...and the ones in the Bill of Rights.

Other than that, this life is pretty tough, so you better do your best. We'll give you maximum freedom to do that....and that's it.

ahem,

"...and free Blow Jobs for all".

You're slackin' on us MTS! What gives??!!

 

[PIGEON-RAT]

I am in the UAW and the only auto workers in it work for either Ford,GM, or Crysler. A lexus is made by Toyota which has no union. And none of the prices of new cars go to pensions.

The Big Three pay out retirement benefits to almost 500,000 retirees, compared to their current employee base of about 300,000.

70% of Ford's $2.8 billion health bill goes to retirees.

The $1,900 value that Matt quoted going to pensions/healthcare costs is money that foreign automakers can spend on better features which naturally makes them more competitive.

Trade around the world is being progressively liberalized with tariffs and barriers to trade among industrialized nations being reduced year after year. As a part of the WTO the US government is very unlikely to give aid through tariffs to US automakers, so if the Big Three want to remain competitive in the world market, they're going to have to increase their own cost efficiency. It's just too bad that the UAW is the major obstacle to this, so the Big Three will not be able to adapt to increasing international competition, and therefore face two options in the future, bailout or bankruptcy.

Bailout is very unlikely. So bankruptcy seems inevitable, and in this case the companies will likely be bought by Japanese automakers and massively downsized, leaving many workers without jobs. Union contracts will also be terminated to decrease costs.

So in the end, those inflexible union contracts actually caused a major hinderance in competition, a major loss in jobs, and a loss of an industry.

The only reason the Big Three are still around are tariffs, and the fact that the UAW reluctantly accepted wage cuts in the 80's to save its members' jobs. Americans are stubborn and will refuse to accept further wage cuts, so they'll lose their jobs entirely when the Chinese flood the market.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

So in the end, those inflexible union contracts actually caused a major hinderance in competition, a major loss in jobs, and a loss of an industry.

Bingo!

Same is happening now in the airline industry. They got their bailout, now they are seeking a pension bailout. I hope it does not happen.

Does the US need an auto industry? Can Americans buy their cars without an auto industry?

If we had no real auto industry, tariffs on foreign cars would be lower, so the prices would drop, so we could all afford nicer cars.

 

[milo hobgoblin]

You all are using ridiculous extremes like the UAW and airline bailouts to justify extremes of your own (MATT)

Under your system.. you would have a small.. very high income class of well educated elites and a HUGE class of very low wage workers competing for jobs with immigrants who will work for pennies an hour because they settle for substandard living conditions (i.e. 4 faimilies living in a household.. )

While I do not agree with the whole union idea.. if they were aboloshied, the Corporate America would revert almost immediately back to late 19th century work habits.. hiring the cheapest labor.. they have already proven this when given the opportunity to outsource to incompetent offshore labor for many technical jobs. Any coder/tech/engineer will tell you time and time again how much work they have to redo becase of some incompetent fucktard in India.

There has to be a happy medium.. you want pure individual freedom in the workplace.. you HAVE to find some way to keep us from competing with people who will live in a sewer and work for a bowl of rice.

No,.. I do NOT think an auto worker should make 40 dollars an hour.. its only a moderately skilled job... but he should still make enough to live in the country in which he is employed.

And face it Matt (LOL president skywalker) you havnt given any sort of explanation on how the average worker could survive .. live, eat, even pay his rent with the sytem your proposing.

You present a very capitialist model.. that provides no concession to the worker.. no protection.

You act as if corporate America actually had the interest of its citizens at heart.. as well as making a profit.. but only the few in the top tiers will benefit from your model.

There is a COST to maintaining resources in a first world country.. having roads to drive those cars on, banks to put your money in, systems to protect the populace..

you act as if all those things are just "free" and exist with no cost. You want grocery stores, blockbusters movie stores, malls...

yet under your system.. all that would disappear.. because a nation of low paid immigrant workers sure as hell aint gonna shop there.

You all seem to forget.. barring some minor tweaks to labor unions, CONTROLLING immigration and outsourcing, and coming up with a better privatized social security system.. what we have WORKS. MOST people in this country own a car, TV, live in a somewhat decent apartment or house.

But you just pour in the cheapest labor that the market demands.. and thats all gone. Our society would crumble into a huge ghetto of crime infested dumps.

Pure capitialism works no better than pure communism. And the reality is they are no different in the end.. a nation of renters spending every but of their income on land owned by large corporations and banks.. vs a nation of people living in government sponsored housing doing as little as possible becasue they will NEVER get ahead.

either way the average Joe is fucked.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

You all are using ridiculous extremes like the UAW and airline bailouts to justify extremes of your own (MATT)

Thing is, they are not ridiculous, they are real, and they are happening right now under our current system. The impacts include higher costs of cars and travel, (everyone pays more), and increased burden on government. These are neither ridiculous nor extreme, they are concrete and realistic.

Under your system.. you would have a small.. very high income class of well educated elites and a HUGE class of very low wage workers competing for jobs with immigrants who will work for pennies an hour because they settle for substandard living conditions (i.e. 4 faimilies living in a household.. )

Now that is extreme. And it is purely theoretical. The market will price labor. Like it prices paper towels. Like it prices houses and stocks. Like it prices labor anyway.

While I do not agree with the whole union idea.. if they were aboloshied, the Corporate America would revert almost immediately back to late 19th century work habits.. hiring the cheapest labor.. they have already proven this when given the opportunity to outsource to incompetent offshore labor for many technical jobs. Any coder/tech/engineer will tell you time and time again how much work they have to redo becase of some incompetent fucktard in India.

Most union-originated protections are now statutory. So immediate reversion is impossible. Some shakeout is possible, but my job is not union protected, nor are the 120 people who work here. Why would their wages fall?

There has to be a happy medium.. you want pure individual freedom in the workplace.. you HAVE to find some way to keep us from competing with people who will live in a sewer and work for a bowl of rice.

LOL at sewer and rice.

The answer is that Americans have to move UP the food chain in work. No more relying on the union to fix your wages via seniority by screwing buyers and using political influence to foreign competition.

You will earn what you are worth on the market.

No,.. I do NOT think an auto worker should make 40 dollars an hour.. its only a moderately skilled job... but he should still make enough to live in the country in which he is employed.

And face it Matt (LOL president skywalker) you havnt given any sort of explanation on how the average worker could survive .. live, eat, even pay his rent with the sytem your proposing.

Because markets fix prices. If the per capita income of a city is 40K, you can't sell houses for $2M. Try listing a house for $1M in rural Ohio. No buyers. Do it in Santa Barbara - the house goes pretty fast.

Prices follow wages. Lower wages, and prices will drop. And that grants that wages will actually drop, which you have not explained in terms other than "the sky would fall".

You present a very capitialist model.. that provides no concession to the worker.. no protection.

You act as if corporate America actually had the interest of its citizens at heart.. as well as making a profit.. but only the few in the top tiers will benefit from your model.

No protection...except that the worker could quit any time.

I have 100 employees. I find that the interest of workers and my interests are mutually aligned. If I push wages down too far I get worse employees, and I lose whatever I saved. If I push them too high, I dont get return on investment past a certain point.

There is a COST to maintaining resources in a first world country.. having roads to drive those cars on, banks to put your money in, systems to protect the populace..

Roads and police require taxes; I never suggested anarchy or that govedrnment can operate without taxes....you are getting very far afield.

you act as if all those things are just "free" and exist with no cost. You want grocery stores, blockbusters movie stores, malls...

yet under your system.. all that would disappear.. because a nation of low paid immigrant workers sure as hell aint gonna shop there.

Incorrect.

Creation of wealth occurs when inefficiencies are worked out of business; friction decreases. 1 machine did more work than 100 factory workers 100 years ago. Thus, wealth grew. More goods were made and sold to more people for lower prices.

But it takes brainpower to create a machine. Since the market cares for wealth only, as you say, there is an incentive to have education and brainpower, to make the improvements that create more wealth, not to hire sewer people.

One computer running 10 machines can do the work of 100 machines, or 10000 sewer people. And thus more wealth is created, because some smart guy invented a computer. But now we need people who can run computers,and we can't pay them sewer wages, because sewer people can't do it. Thus a middle class forms.

Increasing wealth - the goal of the market - requires increasing education. Increased education means breakthroughs so that more people can share in the wealth.

The end state is not the sewer factory, it is the technologically advanced business that has reduced all inefficiencies. Before our business, there was an insurance industry. And it made some people very rich. But we figured out how to do some stuff better. So we made even more money for our clients, and they got even richer. But so did we.

Our insurance clients wanted to get richer. We showed them how. Capitalism means "money flows where return on investment is highest", and in a technologically advanced world (i.e. reality) that means knowledge. Knowledge requires education, and knowledge is expensive. Sewer immigrants have no knowledge; thus they are useless in today's high wage environment.

Our nation will not backslide; capitalism prevents this as the market seeks growth. And as efficiencies are increased, prices drop. Our biz makes insurance cheaper for everyone; this is the natural result of a competitive, capitalist environment.

You all seem to forget.. barring some minor tweaks to labor unions, CONTROLLING immigration and outsourcing, and coming up with a better privatized social security system.. what we have WORKS. MOST people in this country own a car, TV, live in a somewhat decent apartment or house.

Illogical, untrue, irrelevant.

But you just pour in the cheapest labor that the market demands.. and thats all gone. Our society would crumble into a huge ghetto of crime infested dumps.

Disproven above.

Pure capitialism works no better than pure communism. And the reality is they are no different in the end.. a nation of renters spending every but of their income on land owned by large corporations and banks.. vs a nation of people living in government sponsored housing doing as little as possible becasue they will NEVER get ahead.

either way the average Joe is fucked.

Unadulterated misinformation that ignores the reality of today's economy.

Sorry bor, I respect your goals of creating and sustaining opportunity for everyone, but you're ignoring the reality of today's knowledge economy.

 

[milo hobgoblin]

The whole problem with your arguement is your "knowledge" economy is benefitting fewer and fewer people.

I work in the "knowledge" and "technology" industry and I see this every day from the inside. Giant IT corporations outsourcing to cheap labor.. using one highly educated American worker to spend his time fixing the work for a dozen offshore laborers. A dozen laborers who are working for 20-30% of the American counterpart who was laid off and now has to go back to school again, live in poverty and try and find a new job.

You make the same mistake as Marx.. you provide a wonderful "paper" arguement.. but when faced with reality.. it fails miserably.

Funny thing Matt... the only example of runaway capitialism.. (late 19th century America) failed as miserably for the masses as Communism did. And it wasnt until government controls put the brakes on it.. did you see a correction.

When are you going to figure it out.. not everyone has the luxury of spending years in college.. getting multiple degrees and living in a state of financial independence that you seem to maintain. They have families, daily costs.. that dont allow them to just get a new job at the drop of a hat..

Gee hopefully the bank will understand, I lost my job .. not only lost it.. it was eliminated because my company could make their stocks look better by selling my whole division to China.

Well time to go.. as always.. enjoying your stuff. Gives all of us a lot to think about.