No wonder Michael Moore loves the UAW

[75th]

How tacky and pathetic can you be? These guys seem right up Moore's alley.

Marines driven out of UAW lot

The union says Marines in foreign cars, displaying Bush stickers unwelcome.

By Eric Mayne / The Detroit News

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DETROIT -- The United Auto Workers says Marine reservists should show a little more semper fi if they want to use the union's parking lot.

The Marine Corps motto means "always faithful," but the union says some reservists working out of a base on Jefferson Avenue in Detroit have been decidedly unfaithful to their fellow Americans by driving import cars and trucks.

So the UAW International will no longer allow members of the 1st Battalion 24th Marines to park at Solidarity House if they are driving foreign cars or displaying pro-President Bush bumper stickers

"While reservists certainly have the right to drive nonunion made vehicles and display bumper stickers touting the most anti-worker, anti-union president since the 1920s, that doesn't mean they have the right to park in a lot owned by the members of the UAW," the union said in a statement released Friday.

Shocked and disappointed, the Marines are pulling out.

"You either support the Marines or you don't," said Lt. Col. Joe Rutledge, commanding officer of the battalion's active duty instructors. "I'm telling my Marines that they're no longer parking there."

At a time when U.S. armed forces are fighting and dying in Iraq and Afghanistan, quibbling over parking privileges is "silly," Rutledge said.

The UAW has a long history of barring foreign-made cars from its parking lots. The subject is touchier than ever as Detroit's Big Three loses market share, driving down union membership.

The pro-Bush bumper stickers are another sore spot after last year's election.

UAW President Ron Gettelfinger opposed President Bush, accusing him of ignoring calls for labor law reform and failing to combat unfair business practices in China -- a growing threat to U.S. manufacturers.

The dispute arises as the UAW, using laid-off workers for labor, is building a $300,000 home for the Veterans of Foreign Wars. The home in Eaton Rapids will operate a residential program for children of veterans who don't have parents, or whose parents can't care for them.

"We do not think it is unreasonable to expect our guests to practice the simple principle of not insulting their host," the UAW statement said.

Rutledge is unmoved.

"I don't see it as a snub against them," he said, adding no conditions were set when the union first began allowing the Marines to park in the lot several years ago. "We're appreciative of what they've done, but you don't come into my office and say, 'OK, we're not going to support some of your Marines.' I don't know what a foreign car is today anyway. BMWs are made in South Carolina now."

 

[from zero]

wtf
That is the most retarded thing I've ever heard.

 

[Smurfy]

bro!

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

If not for the UAW and their related lobbies, every car out there would be cheaper. GMs cars carry $2000 per car built into the price just to pay pensions.

And, no one likes this, but without unions, cars woul cost....hmmm...maybe $5,000?

A $5,000 Lexus...who would want that?

American car companies should just go out of business; they make shitty cars for rental fleets. In a free market they'd get crushed, but they use their influence to impose tariffs and other disincentives on foreign car makers.

It will be fun when the Chinese cars arrive. Maybe that will finally kill off teh UAW.

 

[d3track]

If not for the UAW and their related lobbies, every car out there would be cheaper. GMs cars carry $2000 per car built into the price just to pay pensions.

And, no one likes this, but without unions, cars woul cost....hmmm...maybe $5,000?

A $5,000 Lexus...who would want that?

American car companies should just go out of business; they make shitty cars for rental fleets. In a free market they'd get crushed, but they use their influence to impose tariffs and other disincentives on foreign car makers.

It will be fun when the Chinese cars arrive. Maybe that will finally kill off teh UAW.

i met someone who is working with bringing in the chinese autos
they sound like a pretty sweet deal

 

[hamstershaver]

if the quality of an american car was as good as a toyota id buy american, but its not, im not going to waste 18k on a piece of shit

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

if the quality of an american car was as good as a toyota id buy american, but its not, im not going to waste 18k on a piece of shit

Bingo!

And if not for the tariffs and other UAW-driven policies, the price of a Toyota would be lower.

 

[Razorguns]

Last i checked, many foreign auto-makers build their cars in north america.

What planet are these bozo's been on?

How about asking them WHY they're driving those foreign cars? Afraid of the answer boys???

Typical american blue-collar arrogance.

 

[HardHat87]

If not for the UAW and their related lobbies, every car out there would be cheaper. GMs cars carry $2000 per car built into the price just to pay pensions.

And, no one likes this, but without unions, cars woul cost....hmmm...maybe $5,000?

A $5,000 Lexus...who would want that?

American car companies should just go out of business; they make shitty cars for rental fleets. In a free market they'd get crushed, but they use their influence to impose tariffs and other disincentives on foreign car makers.

It will be fun when the Chinese cars arrive. Maybe that will finally kill off teh UAW.

I am in the UAW and the only auto workers in it work for either Ford,GM, or Crysler. A lexus is made by Toyota which has no union. And none of the prices of new cars go to pensions. Toyotas, Hondas, etc are made in the US now, so really the only foreign car is European autos. American cars are alos made with many foreign parts in it, just as foriegn cars have many American parts in it. Even though I am in the UAW I drive an Acura, many people who work with me are driving what they want. My Acura was made in ohio and only has 25% of the parts from Japan. It is true that American cars last about 3 times less than a Honda. etc. I am not biased on any way because I work there, I just have more information regarding all auto companies. I hope you buy one of those Chinese cars though. They are huge pieces of junk.

 

[Razorguns]

Isn't Chrysler FOREIGN-owned now too???

Patriotism stops when it's _your_ money being spent. Then you want the best bang for your buck.

 

[HardHat87]

Isn't Chrysler FOREIGN-owned now too???

Patriotism stops when it's _your_ money being spent. Then you want the best bang for your buck.

It might be but they are still UAW. If it is foreign owned then they will have to wait until the end of the UAW contract until they can get rid of them. I agree, when people give me shit for driving an Acura I tell them until you buy me a car I will drive what I want. What Im saying though is that every car has about the same number of foreign, domestic parts on it. BMWs have a Gm made transmission in it. The ford sht had a complete Japenese motor in it. Most of the foreign cars are made in the US, employing American workers. So yes you should buy what you want or whatever is the better running car.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

I am in the UAW and the only auto workers in it work for either Ford,GM, or Crysler.

I will have more questions for you, I am sure. Thanks for replying.

A lexus is made by Toyota which has no union.

I have a few Lexuses, I've generally been happy with them. From what I understand, many Toyotas are made in the US. This was done as a political maneuver by Japanese car makers I am sure, to seem more US friendly when anti-Japanese biases arose in the 80s. There were probably some economic incentives to create jobs here, along with tariff avoidance, etc. I don't know specifics off-hand.

And none of the prices of new cars go to pensions.

Incorrect. $2000 of every GM car's price goes to pensions. I read that in the WSJ about two weeks ago, and also came across it when talking to the owner of a Cadillac dealership a few weeks ago; I was testing the CTS-V. Great to drive, a rocket, but when I was talking price with the owner we got into a long discussion over this, and he's owned the dealership 30+ years, so he's been there for GMs ups and downs.

If you'd like I will find an authoritative source to confirm this pension statement for you. I am completely sure of it though. GM having pension problems is old news, I thought. How else would they pay for them?

Toyotas, Hondas, etc are made in the US now, so really the only foreign car is European autos. American cars are alos made with many foreign parts in it, just as foriegn cars have many American parts in it.

Sure. But it is still true that absent unions, the prices of labor would drop, so would the price of cars.

Even though I am in the UAW I drive an Acura, many people who work with me are driving what they want. My Acura was made in ohio and only has 25% of the parts from Japan. It is true that American cars last about 3 times less than a Honda. etc. I am not biased on any way because I work there, I just have more information regarding all auto companies. I hope you buy one of those Chinese cars though. They are huge pieces of junk.

Useful info. But I am puzzled by your last two sentences. Don't take this stuff personally. I just post to share knowledge and gain knowledge. I have a few cars, all foreign. I got really lucky a few years ago and can buy anything. But I know the auto workers said the same thing about Japanese cars 40+ years ago, and now they are superior.

Auto workers said Korean cars would suck too, but Hyundai and Kia established a low cost foothold and are now moving up the chain; there is a Kia "luxury" car (such as it is) and both Hyundai and Kia make SUVs, etc.

Do you really think Chinese cars will not be a force in the market in say, 20 years?

 

[biteme]

Michael Moore is a great man and should run for President. He is the most informed, knowledgable citizen in the U.S.

 

[Mr. dB]

IIncorrect. $2000 of every GM car's price goes to pensions.

Why is that bad? Most corporations have a pension plan of some sort for full time employees, and if they're selling a product, the cost of that pension must be reflected in the price. It's part of the cost of doing business.

 

[mrplunkey]

Why is that bad? Most corporations have a pension plan of some sort for full time employees, and if they're selling a product, the cost of that pension must be reflected in the price. It's part of the cost of doing business.

It's bad because the pension programs of many companies (not just GM) are driving companies that would otherwise be viable into financial ruin. The pension program itself wasn't the issue -- it was the out of control benefits and costs of the programs.

Also... it makes stuff more expensive!

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Why is that bad? Most corporations have a pension plan of some sort for full time employees, and if they're selling a product, the cost of that pension must be reflected in the price. It's part of the cost of doing business.

For hardhat87: each GM car or truck this year will carry about $1,900 in pension and retiree health-care costs, according to Stephen Girsky, an industry analyst for Morgan Stanley. That's up from about $1,300 last year. "There are more health-care costs in a car than steel," Girsky said

You can read the whole article at: http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/business/2003/07/28pensionwoesdriv.html


mr. dB,

Would you rather pay $22,000 for a car or $20,000? Also does not help market competitiveness. The idea is to reduce as many "costs of doing business" as possible. The article above talks about the competitive downward spiral the big three are in.

Can the US survive without an auto industry?

 

[Spartacus]

Incorrect. $2000 of every GM car's price goes to pensions. I read that in the WSJ about two weeks ago, and also came across it when talking to the owner of a Cadillac dealership a few weeks ago; I was testing the CTS-V. Great to drive, a rocket, but when I was talking price with the owner we got into a long discussion over this, and he's owned the dealership 30+ years, so he's been there for GMs ups and downs.

I read the same article

 

[Steve The Bluesman]

I was a honda man for a long time (I have had 3 of them) but I can say after a year that my Dodge SRT-4 is at least a match for my 2000 Si in terms of reliability, fit and finish.

I wouldn't lump all american cars in the shit category.


Bluesman

 

[d3track]

isnt the srt mostly mitsu?
i thought i read that back when it was first introduced

 

[CFZB]

*in my best Droopy Voice*.....ahem

Oh well ...golly gee wiz.... looks like its a horrible thing and theres nothing we can do ...Boy oh Boy ....its always been bad and its always going to be this way ....oh golly... and they signed thier union cards so theres nothing they can do ...oh golly gee willikers...and they are soldiers too ..they should be treated better than that...gosh o gosh.... Looks like we have to deal with it ... oh Gosh..and everythings so expensive...gosh ..what are we going to do?....

 

[spongebob]

Sure. But it is still true that absent unions, the prices of labor would drop, so would the price of cars.



?

matt i know you look at everything from a business perspective, but what do we really want here the very cheapest possible labor, why not just allow kids to do the labor for 2.73/hr with no benefits.

this is not a free market, never has been i think. and i dont want it to be, it benefits everyone for society to strike a balance.

 

[spongebob]

It's bad because the pension programs of many companies (not just GM) are driving companies that would otherwise be viable into financial ruin. The pension program itself wasn't the issue -- it was the out of control benefits and costs of the programs.

Also... it makes stuff more expensive!

lol. thats joke right? its bad that companies provide pensions and benefits. why dont we just discontinue all benefits. no health insurance, no retirement, and drop all wages to $1/hr.

i think it wouldnt work, the system is inter-dependent.

 

[spongebob]

mr. dB,

Would you rather pay $22,000 for a car or $20,000? Also does not help market competitiveness. The idea is to reduce as many "costs of doing business" as possible. The article above talks about the competitive downward spiral the big three are in.

?

i would rather pay a dollar, its just not feasible matt.

and what is, "as possible"? vauge and subjective.

 

[spongebob]

*in my best Droopy Voice*.....ahem

Oh well ...golly gee wiz.... looks like its a horrible thing and theres nothing we can do ...Boy oh Boy ....its always been bad and its always going to be this way ....oh golly... and they signed thier union cards so theres nothing they can do ...oh golly gee willikers...and they are soldiers too ..they should be treated better than that...gosh o gosh.... Looks like we have to deal with it ... oh Gosh..and everythings so expensive...gosh ..what are we going to do?....

very well said actually.

 

[BrothaBill]

you made sense of that. Also on the pensions and labor costs, its something that the society and community have stated time and again as something that is of value beyond the cost of goods and services. THose are just ways building in those values into the system.

 

[CFZB]

you made sense of that. Also on the pensions and labor costs, its something that the society and community have stated time and again as something that is of value beyond the cost of goods and services. THose are just ways building in those values into the system.

God you realy hate The american workers dont you?

 

[spongebob]

you made sense of that. Also on the pensions and labor costs, its something that the society and community have stated time and again as something that is of value beyond the cost of goods and services. THose are just ways building in those values into the system.

what are you talking about????




j/k. damn good point wingman!!!

 

[BrothaBill]

God you realy hate The american workers dont you?

Id have to care first which I dont, so they may live, their bitching amuses me



Spongebob:

j/k. damn good point wingman!!!

Right back at ya my darkwingduckman!!!

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

matt i know you look at everything from a business perspective, but what do we really want here the very cheapest possible labor, why not just allow kids to do the labor for 2.73/hr with no benefits.

this is not a free market, never has been i think. and i dont want it to be, it benefits everyone for society to strike a balance.

I look at everything from an individual rights perspective. There is no way that a collective body should have the influence that the UAW does. I don't have a problem with unions per se; individuals are free to organize into groups, but their employer should be free to fire all of them without repercussions.

Unions did serve a purpose; they stopped the child labor you alluded to, although it is worth mentioning that kids in factories were preceded by kids working on the farm in an equally brutal world, subject to famine and drought etc.

Urbanization and industrialization, while harsh in their untamed origins, actually improved the quality of life for millions, even the kids who worked in factories and mines.

We sometimes imagine (and propaganda supports this fantasy) that life for kids was idyllic and joyful before the evil factories and captialist pigs came along. In fact, factories made their lives better. The agrarian life was brutal and irregular, and subject to weather without regard for human effort. The 12 hour workday and 7 day work week for adults was the same as agrarian life anyway.

Urbanization and factory work were great for America. Nevertheless, unions played a critical role in civilizing the business owners and ensuring humane treatment as the industrial revolution went on. However, much of what unions have fought for is now statutory, and in many ways unions have outlived their usefulness, becoming a bane rather than boon to the economy.

As far as "benefits to society"....that is a hollow phrase, sir. Society is nothing more than a group of individuals. Individuals have rights; there are no special rights that a "society" has, in a free nation there are no collective bodies that accrue special rights. Thus my distaste for unions bastardizing the political process to gain unequal leverage.

Individuals should have the right to choose the terms of their employment. In a free nation, employment is a voluntary agreement between two parties. Let's keep it that way.

I love freedom. I am not that crazy about business. I want the market to determine someone's wage, not collectivization.

 

[BrothaBill]

Here is the steps necessary to solve these questions

Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.
Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.

When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class; if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.

 

[spongebob]

I look at everything from an individual rights perspective. There is no way that a collective body should have the influence that the UAW does. I don't have a problem with unions per se; individuals are free to organize into groups, but their employer should be free to fire all of them without repercussions.

Unions did serve a purpose; they stopped the child labor you alluded to, although it is worth mentioning that kids in factories were preceded by kids working on the farm in an equally brutal world, subject to famine and drought etc.

Urbanization and industrialization, while harsh in their untamed origins, actually improved the quality of life for millions, even the kids who worked in factories and mines.

We sometimes imagine (and propaganda supports this fantasy) that life for kids was idyllic and joyful before the evil factories and captialist pigs came along. In fact, factories made their lives better. The agrarian life was brutal and irregular, and subject to weather without regard for human effort. The 12 hour workday and 7 day work week for adults was the same as agrarian life anyway.

Urbanization and factory work were great for America. Nevertheless, unions played a critical role in civilizing the business owners and ensuring humane treatment as the industrial revolution went on. However, much of what unions have fought for is now statutory, and in many ways unions have outlived their usefulness, becoming a bane rather than boon to the economy.

As far as "benefits to society"....that is a hollow phrase, sir. Society is nothing more than a group of individuals. Individuals have rights; there are no special rights that a "society" has, in a free nation there are no collective bodies that accrue special rights. Thus my distaste for unions bastardizing the political process to gain unequal leverage.

Individuals should have the right to choose the terms of their employment. In a free nation, employment is a voluntary agreement between two parties. Let's keep it that way.

I love freedom. I am not that crazy about business. I want the market to determine someone's wage, not collectivization.

i agree with about 75% of your post.

the 12.5% about the unions i dont. although i agree that most have gone way overboard unfortunately, i still believe they are needed. the relationship between big business and unions are very dynamic, just like pro-life/and pro-choice and gun control/gun nuts. if one side gives up the other side will go overboard, it is the power of the darkside that say's so.

look at bush's proposal for OT rules. the issue is too dynamic to let one side become untouchable.

the other 12.5% is that i still believe in the good of society as a whole benefits everyone.

 

[XBiker]

Auto workers said Korean cars would suck too, but Hyundai and Kia established a low cost foothold and are now moving up the chain; there is a Kia "luxury" car (such as it is) and both Hyundai and Kia make SUVs, etc.

Do you really think Chinese cars will not be a force in the market in say, 20 years?

MTSW,

I know this ? wasn't directed at me, but allow X to respond.

The Koreans are gaining momentum, much like the Japs have been doing for the last 30+ years. Their cars are getting better from a quality stand point and the warrantees they are offering totally shatter that of just about any of the auto makers.

I recently saw a nice expose on the Chinese auto makers. The still have quite a bit of work to do in the emissions and quality arenas, but they are on track to start importing their autos within the next 5 or so years.

IMO, give them 10-15 years and they'll be kicking the Big 3's ass just like the Jap's have done. The Chinese are fine with starting at the lower demographics (read, not the attorney crowd...) and working their way up.

 

[Spartacus]

it sucks that the benefits and pension packages far outstrip the skill of the labor
I read once that the pay and benefits for an autoworker amounted to $40 an hour
thats too boo koo

 

[BrothaBill]

i agree with about 75% of your post.

the 12.5% about the unions i dont. although i agree that most have gone way overboard unfortunately, i still believe they are needed. the relationship between big business and unions are very dynamic, just like pro-life/and pro-choice and gun control/gun nuts. if one side gives up the other side will go overboard, it is the power of the darkside that say's so.

look at bush's proposal for OT rules. the issue is too dynamic to let one side become untouchable.

the other 12.5% is that i still believe in the good of society as a whole benefits everyone.

Marx then responds to a number of criticisms from an imagined bourgeois interlocutor. He considers the charge that by wishing to abolish private property, the communist is destroying the "ground work of all personal freedom, activity, and independence"(96). Marx responds by saying that wage labor does not properly create any property for the laborer. It only creates capital, a property which works only to augment the exploitation of the worker. This property, this capital, is based on class antagonism. Having linked private property to class antagonism, Marx proceeds to investigate both antagonists with respect to their independence.

Marx first notes that capital is a social product, that is, capital only exists within some social system. The result of this is that capital is not a personal but a social power. Making property public then, as the communist wants to do, is not changing the private to the social; it is only modifying its already inherent social character.

Returning to the condition of the wage laborer, Marx argues that "the average price of wage labor is the minimum wage, i.e. the quantum of the means of subsistence which is the absolutely requisite to keep the laborer in bare existence as a laborer" (97). The proletariat, then, is absolutely dependent on the capitalist for his very survival. He does not acquire any property because his wage must be given immediately to his own subsistence. Communists want to ensure that the laborer exists for more than merely the increase of bourgeois capital. Labor should not be directed towards the accumulation of wealth on the part of the capitalist. Rather, capital, or property in general, should be directed toward the enrichment of the laborer's life.

Abolition of private property means, then, only the abolition of bourgeoisie property. The freedom which the bourgeois believe is underwritten by private property is a very narrow freedom, one available only to a very small subset of the population. Moreover, this form of property depends on its radically unequal distribution. The ultimate point, as Marx says, is that "communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that is does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labor of others by means of such appropriation" (99).

Marx also considers the criticism that a communist society would promote general idleness. This strikes Marx as laughable considering that in bourgeois society those who work do not acquire anything while those who acquire things do not work. In the end, the force of this charge, as with the force of all these other charges, presupposes the bourgeois system of property. As Marx says, "Don't wrangle with us so long as you apply, to our intended abolition of bourgeois property, the standard of your bourgeois notions of freedom, culture, law, etc. Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of the conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property..." (100). He accuses the bourgeoisie of elevating to the status of immutable truths values which are only local and contingent. It is selfish conceit that blinds the bourgeoisie to the reality of the historical progress which Marx here seeks to elucidate.

Communists are also accused of desiring to destroy the family. To this Marx pleads guilty, reiterating his oft mentioned contention that the object of destruction is specifically the bourgeois exemplar. To the capitalist, a spouse and children are mere instruments of production, like the machines in his factory. Furthermore, the education he wishes for them simply perpetuates their subordination. A communist society would alter these relations, utilizing the educational system to end the exploitation that women, children, and the vast working classes suffer under capitalism. This is a self-conscious destruction of society, but only as a cleansing of the old in preparation for the new.

As for the suggestion that communists wish to abolish countries, Marx responds that this process is already occurring due to bourgeois efforts to expand free trade. Such globalization will continue as class consciousness develops across the proletariat of all nations. Marx even goes so far as to predict that antagonism between nations will vanish as class antagonisms fade away. Class defines one far more than nationality.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Here is the steps necessary to solve these questions

Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.
Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.

When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class; if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.

This brilliant system, implemented in the USSR, led to a situation whereby the productivity of farm land per acre was LOWER in 1987 than in 1917.

70 years later, with industrial advances, and this system made it worse. Only collectivization can do this.

The country was so broke that the USSR had to buy food from the US; depsite being the world's largest oil producer, they were flat broke. Only the oil held off the collapse for so long.

Weird, huh, that Marx could be so completely wrong?

 

[BrothaBill]

MTSW,

I know this ? wasn't directed at me, but allow X to respond.

The Koreans are gaining momentum, much like the Japs have been doing for the last 30+ years. Their cars are getting better from a quality stand point and the warrantees they are offering totally shatter that of just about any of the auto makers.

I recently saw a nice expose on the Chinese auto makers. The still have quite a bit of work to do in the emissions and quality arenas, but they are on track to start importing their autos within the next 5 or so years.

IMO, give them 10-15 years and they'll be kicking the Big 3's ass just like the Jap's have done. The Chinese are fine with starting at the lower demographics (read, not the attorney crowd...) and working their way up.

The Sun is setting on the Japanese economy, they are growing old.

China will soon rule the markets and the world, proving Marx's vision of how communism can work.
The US will eventually have to turn to such a system as it is inevitable that nations face revolution when the wealth power become too concentrated as it is here.

It is the workers that control the means of productions. By militarizing the worker class, the elite shall be put in their places when the revolution has begun.

The Revolution will Not Be Televised!

 

[spongebob]

it sucks that the benefits and pension packages far outstrip the skill of the labor
I read once that the pay and benefits for an autoworker amounted to $40 an hour
thats too boo koo

lol. how many years did you work in a blue collar labor job bro? considering your comment that you "once read", i will assume 0.

dont you have any benefits and pension plan where you work?

and the 40$ an hour seems low. not that i think its too little, just that i work in the petrochemicals industry and i think it is generally around 60 to 75$ and hour.

 

[CFZB]

World Communism....

The only way we will survive as a Planet.

 

[BrothaBill]

This brilliant system, implemented in the USSR, led to a situation whereby the productivity of farm land per acre was LOWER in 1987 than in 1917.

70 years later, with industrial advances, and this system made it worse. Only collectivization can do this.

The country was so broke that the USSR had to buy food from the US; depsite being the world's largest oil producer, they were flat broke. Only the oil held off the collapse for so long.

Weird, huh, that Marx could be so completely wrong?

It looks good on paper.

 

[Spartacus]

lol. how many years did you work in a blue collar labor job bro? considering your comment that you "once read", i will assume 0.

dont you have any benefits and pension plan where you work?

and the 40$ an hour seems low. not that i think its too little, just that i work in the petrochemicals industry and i think it is generally around 60 to 75$ and hour.

if you count dishwashing and bussing tables through high school and some of college-about 4 years of that
bartended the remainder of my college career
bottom line is the foreign plants here in the US (e.g. the Mercedes SUV plant in alabama) are getting thier labor cheaper
and the product is considerably better

 

[CFZB]

It looks good on paper.

that made me LMAO.

 

[Lestat]

Socialism isn't the way to go

 

[spongebob]

Marx then responds to a number of criticisms from an imagined bourgeois interlocutor. He considers the charge that by wishing to abolish private property, the communist is destroying the "ground work of all personal freedom, activity, and independence"(96). Marx responds by saying that wage labor does not properly create any property for the laborer. It only creates capital, a property which works only to augment the exploitation of the worker. This property, this capital, is based on class antagonism. Having linked private property to class antagonism, Marx proceeds to investigate both antagonists with respect to their independence.

Marx first notes that capital is a social product, that is, capital only exists within some social system. The result of this is that capital is not a personal but a social power. Making property public then, as the communist wants to do, is not changing the private to the social; it is only modifying its already inherent social character.

Returning to the condition of the wage laborer, Marx argues that "the average price of wage labor is the minimum wage, i.e. the quantum of the means of subsistence which is the absolutely requisite to keep the laborer in bare existence as a laborer" (97). The proletariat, then, is absolutely dependent on the capitalist for his very survival. He does not acquire any property because his wage must be given immediately to his own subsistence. Communists want to ensure that the laborer exists for more than merely the increase of bourgeois capital. Labor should not be directed towards the accumulation of wealth on the part of the capitalist. Rather, capital, or property in general, should be directed toward the enrichment of the laborer's life.

Abolition of private property means, then, only the abolition of bourgeoisie property. The freedom which the bourgeois believe is underwritten by private property is a very narrow freedom, one available only to a very small subset of the population. Moreover, this form of property depends on its radically unequal distribution. The ultimate point, as Marx says, is that "communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that is does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labor of others by means of such appropriation" (99).

Marx also considers the criticism that a communist society would promote general idleness. This strikes Marx as laughable considering that in bourgeois society those who work do not acquire anything while those who acquire things do not work. In the end, the force of this charge, as with the force of all these other charges, presupposes the bourgeois system of property. As Marx says, "Don't wrangle with us so long as you apply, to our intended abolition of bourgeois property, the standard of your bourgeois notions of freedom, culture, law, etc. Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of the conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property..." (100). He accuses the bourgeoisie of elevating to the status of immutable truths values which are only local and contingent. It is selfish conceit that blinds the bourgeoisie to the reality of the historical progress which Marx here seeks to elucidate.

Communists are also accused of desiring to destroy the family. To this Marx pleads guilty, reiterating his oft mentioned contention that the object of destruction is specifically the bourgeois exemplar. To the capitalist, a spouse and children are mere instruments of production, like the machines in his factory. Furthermore, the education he wishes for them simply perpetuates their subordination. A communist society would alter these relations, utilizing the educational system to end the exploitation that women, children, and the vast working classes suffer under capitalism. This is a self-conscious destruction of society, but only as a cleansing of the old in preparation for the new.

As for the suggestion that communists wish to abolish countries, Marx responds that this process is already occurring due to bourgeois efforts to expand free trade. Such globalization will continue as class consciousness develops across the proletariat of all nations. Marx even goes so far as to predict that antagonism between nations will vanish as class antagonisms fade away. Class defines one far more than nationality.

lol, brothabill, im not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. im not that smart bro.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

The Sun is setting on the Japanese economy, they are growing old.

China will soon rule the markets and the world, proving Marx's vision of how communism can work.
The US will eventually have to turn to such a system as it is inevitable that nations face revolution when the wealth power become too concentrated as it is here.

It is the workers that control the means of productions. By militarizing the worker class, the elite shall be put in their places when the revolution has begun.

The Revolution will Not Be Televised!

Do you really believe this?

(1) China is not Communist in any sense that Marx would define it. More like an oligarchy; there are Chinese billionaires.

(2) China is the exact opposite of how Marx envisioned population distribution; they are rapidly urbanizing.

(3) China is more likely to break apart than to gather significant additional strength on the world stage. (You heard it here first)

Why? China's regional governemnts have great power; and a fading sense of loyalty to the national governemnt. Urbanization is actually fueling this; regional governors are appropriating "public" land for private development, which is causing problems as (a) people are displaced and (b) regional governors get richer through selling influence.

They're not going to want to go back to fealty once their regions and provinces are economic powerhouses. I can discuss this point in greater detail if you'd like; I have some Chinese biz partners and friends in Hong Kong.

(4) China owns so much US debt that they need to keep trading with us on our terms.

China is more likely to become an oligarchy, then break apart.

Might not be pretty. But it will be televised.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

World Communism....

The only way we will survive as a Planet.

It was a winner in the USSR.

Well, except for the fact that they couldn't feed their own people and had to buy food from us, it worked great.

Jackass. I hope you get to live in a Communist country one day.

 

[CFZB]

Oh we will fight them.

 

[spongebob]

It looks good on paper.

lol.

 

[CFZB]

It was a winner in the USSR.

Well, except for the fact that they couldn't feed their own people and had to buy food from us, it worked great.

Jackass. I hope you get to live in a Communist country one day.

Um...i hope you do too?

 

[BrothaBill]

lol, brothabill, im not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. im not that smart bro.

No I hear ya and there is validity to everyone's comments and there positions as they view the economy and world through their own situation.
For me these are incredibly complex issues of society morality and economic issues as well as issues of the world as PW suggests.
I can argue all sides of these matters as everyone is right in certain areas.

The issue as I see it is that we must first choose a mission statement and idea that we work towards and then argue the details like this. It makes for great discussion though, but you wont find me on either side save for a moment. And you should know by now the subtle jokes with my posts LOL

 

[BrothaBill]

MTS:

Do you really believe this?

not really why

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

I can argue all sides of these matters as everyone is right in certain areas.

No can agree sir, there is nothing right about favoring collectivization over individual rights. The idea that anyone "owes" everyone anything is a pollution of the mind that must be cleaned.

 

[CFZB]

Let talk Global Warming and the Using up of the worlds Resources now....

 

[spongebob]

if you count dishwashing and bussing tables through high school and some of college-about 4 years of that
bartended the remainder of my college career
bottom line is the foreign plants here in the US (e.g. the Mercedes SUV plant in alabama) are getting thier labor cheaper
and the product is considerably better

sorry orb, i meant blue collar/middle class/factory/industry jobs, not bussing table at johnnny's watering hole.

my point being im thinking you know nothing about those working environments. so to make BLANKET statements like everyone in this ignorant country does,regarding this topic, about the "skill" of the workforce is rediculious!

i wish for once people would start laying some fucking blame on the companies management and upper eschelon(sp). my 20 yrs of work experience as been in those jobs and the idiots that are stuffing money in thier pockets day in and day out at the expense and redicule of the worker is beyond reproach.

IMO.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Let talk Global Warming now....

Sure.

We should start by emphasizing that the USSR was a polluter far greater than the US, and di dmore to cuase potential problems than we ever will.

Say it with me:

Private Property Prevents Pollution.

If I own something, I am damn sure not going to let you fuck it up. Public "ownership" is a disaster for property and consequrntly the environment.

And your commie ass does realize that 30 years ago, people were worried about "global cooling", right? LOL.

 

[CFZB]

Sure.

We should start by emphasizing that the USSR was a polluter far greater than the US, and di dmore to cuase potential problems than we ever will.

Say it with me:

Private Property Prevents Pollution.

If I own something, I am damn sure not going to let you fuck it up. Public "ownership" is a disaster for property and consequrntly the environment.

And your commie ass does realize that 30 years ago, people were worried about "global cooling", right? LOL.

You dont want to play nicely....fine.

 

[spongebob]

ya'll fight! j/k, matt will kill you.

 

[CFZB]

ya'll fight! j/k, matt will kill you.

No I dont want to fight...he knows alot about money....I have my areas too..

oh well...

 

[BrothaBill]

Let talk Global Warming and the Using up of the worlds Resources now....

Well PW, global warming is just a fact of life, thank god or we'd still be in the ice age. The liberal guilt thrust upon people that they as an individual are causing the inevitable destruction of the planet is a charade to subjugate their minds.
THe Kyoto accords are complete lunacy and will not stop one bit of rise in Global temperatures, even their estimates are miniscule. But in the meantime it substantially damages economies.
Its a ridiculous notion of trying to stop global warming, its just going to happen whether you think its bad or not. I choose to think of it as a good thing, glass half full type of deal.

 

[CFZB]

Well PW, global warming is just a fact of life, thank god or we'd still be in the ice age. The liberal guilt thrust upon people that they as an individual are causing the inevitable destruction of the planet is a charade to subjugate their minds.
THe Kyoto accords are complete lunacy and will not stop one bit of rise in Global temperatures, even their estimates are miniscule. But in the meantime it substantially damages economies.
Its a ridiculous notion of trying to stop global warming, its just going to happen whether you think its bad or not. I choose to think of it as a good thing, glass half full type of deal.

So your a Conspiracy theorist?

 

[spongebob]

No I dont want to fight...he knows alot about money....I have my areas too..

oh well...

i was talking about a real fight. you scared?

 

[CFZB]

i was talking about a real fight. you scared?

In real life?

Give to me a Break.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

You dont want to play nicely....fine.

I have been playing nice. Now I need to be harsher.

But collectivization has failed everywhere. It fails across the board. In addition to crushing human rights, the USSR was the greatest mass murderer in the history of man. The fucking Nazis ran a better country than the USSR.

You always joke abou Bush eroding rights and fascism coming here, in fact, that type of society was made reality by the USSR, and they used collectivist ideas to do it.

Give up on the far left shit already. Recognize that private ownership is the only way to secure human rights and to create wealth necessary for all to benefit. Would you rather be a poor American or a collectivist farmer in the USSR? At least in the US you got a shot, bro.

Programs that are remotely collectivist (like Social Security, your favorite) or unions, are inherently bad. They can't be "a little good"; they only detract from the efforts of individuals, which is how mankind progresses.

Wake up broseph, and realize that capitalism is the only system which works. The problem is, a lot of people can't make it, live shitty lives, and want to blame other people, then take money from them. That's why collectivist ideals flourish: they level the playing field so everyone, notjust the losers, gets dragged to the bottom. Then, there are no "losers" because everyone is fucked.

So, I mean this politely, but Fuck You and your Collectivist Bullshit.

And no, I don't want to fight. I am hungry now. I need food.

 

[CFZB]

I have been playing nice. Now I need to be harsher.

But collectivization has failed everywhere. It fails across the board. In addition to crushing human rights, the USSR was the greatest mass murderer in the history of man. The fucking Nazis ran a better country than the USSR.

You always joke abou Bush eroding rights and fascism coming here, in fact, that type of society was made reality by the USSR, and they used collectivist ideas to do it.

Give up on the far left shit already. Recognize that private ownership is the only way to secure human rights and to create wealth necessary for all to benefit. Would you rather be a poor American or a collectivist farmer in the USSR? At least in the US you got a shot, bro.

Programs that are remotely collectivist (like Social Security, your favorite) or unions, are inherently bad. They can't be "a little good"; they only detract from the efforts of individuals, which is how mankind progresses.

Wake up broseph, and realize that capitalism is the only system which works. The problem is, a lot of people can't make it, live shitty lives, and want to blame other people, then take money from them. That's why collectivist ideals flourish: they level the playing field so everyone, notjust the losers, gets dragged to the bottom. Then, there are no "losers" because everyone is fucked.

So, I mean this politely, but Fuck You and your Collectivist Bullshit.

I agree .

But I went past that......

Wayyyyyyyyy past that....

like my childrens childrens children past that.

Oh well...time will tell.

I guess That Most People wont want to resort to cannibalism before they Get along .....but that just me.

You seem realy smart ...

We need people like you on our side.

 

[BrothaBill]

PW eat shit and die DIE!! I never liked that guy Matt

 

[CFZB]

PW eat shit and die DIE!! I never liked that guy Matt

lol....

 

[Mr. dB]

Let talk Global Warming and the Using up of the worlds Resources now....

Okay.

Global warming isn't the result of any manmade process, but merely the natural result of the Earth still recovering from the last Ice Age 10,000 years ago.

 

[CFZB]

Okay.

Global warming isn't the result of any manmade process, but merely the natural result of the Earth still recovering from the last Ice Age 10,000 years ago.

sigh.....

ok.

whatever.

you win.

the scientist lie.

praise jebus.

 

[spongebob]

In real life?

Give to me a Break.

so you dont wanna fight?

 

[BrothaBill]

What about that hole in the ozone fellas

 

[CFZB]

so you dont wanna fight?

Yeah Im esscared.

 

[spongebob]

I have been playing nice. Now I need to be harsher.

But collectivization has failed everywhere. It fails across the board. In addition to crushing human rights, the USSR was the greatest mass murderer in the history of man. The fucking Nazis ran a better country than the USSR.

You always joke abou Bush eroding rights and fascism coming here, in fact, that type of society was made reality by the USSR, and they used collectivist ideas to do it.

Give up on the far left shit already. Recognize that private ownership is the only way to secure human rights and to create wealth necessary for all to benefit. Would you rather be a poor American or a collectivist farmer in the USSR? At least in the US you got a shot, bro.

Programs that are remotely collectivist (like Social Security, your favorite) or unions, are inherently bad. They can't be "a little good"; they only detract from the efforts of individuals, which is how mankind progresses.

Wake up broseph, and realize that capitalism is the only system which works. The problem is, a lot of people can't make it, live shitty lives, and want to blame other people, then take money from them. That's why collectivist ideals flourish: they level the playing field so everyone, notjust the losers, gets dragged to the bottom. Then, there are no "losers" because everyone is fucked.

So, I mean this politely, but Fuck You and your Collectivist Bullshit.

And no, I don't want to fight. I am hungry now. I need food.

i bet matt has more money than the USSR did, so he will be able to buy his own food.

 

[Mr. dB]

What about that hole in the ozone fellas

So some sheep in Tierra Del Fuego get skin cancer...

 

[BrothaBill]

You guys are my best friends!
Through thick and thin,
We've always been together!
We're four of a kind,
Havin' fun all day,
Pallin' around and laughin' away!
Just best friends!
Best friends are we!
I love you guys.

Bizarro Cartman.
You guys are hella cool!!

 

[CFZB]

You guys are my best friends!
Through thick and thin,
We've always been together!
We're four of a kind,
Havin' fun all day,
Pallin' around and laughin' away!
Just best friends!
Best friends are we!
I love you guys.

Bizarro Cartman.
You guys are hella cool!!

lol...

 

[BrothaBill]

So some sheep in Tierra Del Fuego get skin cancer...

wasnt tierra del fuego car an AMC model

 

[hooch]

I think I pretty much got Matt's take on everything (his Bush style-ownership philosophy)...

The company that you worked for for 29.9 years just fired you..1 month short of collecting a pension..too fucking bad. You should have worked someplace else.

The company that you worked for just locked you out of your 401K as its value tanked and wiped out 90% of your savings...too fucking bad. You should have invested someplace else.

The power company manipulated the states power grid...causing rates to rise 500%....too fucking bad. Have a wood stove handy next time.

The doctor accidently cut off your legs during surgery. You sue and only collect $10,000 because of lawsuit caps in place. Waaaa!! Go get a job as a side show freak...

All of your kids have mercuray(sp) poisioning from drinking contaminated water. Waaaa!!! Give them Sunny Delight next time.

Your a single mom with 2 kids and a catastrophic illness wipes out your life savings but the new bankruptcy law says "Pay Up Bitch!!"

After weak gov't oversight massive stock market scandals caused your portfolio to implode and pensions are a thing of the past. But at least you have your social secu..no wait. President skywalker said the nation can no longer afford it after spending 500 billion to rebuild "insert Middle Eastern country here". Waaaa!! just cut your throat already old man....

 

[HardHat87]

I think I pretty much got Matt's take on everything (his Bush style-ownership philosophy)...

The company that you worked for for 29.9 years just fired you..1 month short of collecting a pension..too fucking bad. You should have worked someplace else.

The company that you worked for just locked you out of your 401K as its value tanked and wiped out 90% of your savings...too fucking bad. You should have invested someplace else.

The power company manipulated the states power grid...causing rates to rise 500%....too fucking bad. Have a wood stove handy next time.

The doctor accidently cut off your legs during surgery. You sue and only collect $10,000 because of lawsuit caps in place. Waaaa!! Go get a job as a side show freak...

All of your kids have mercuray(sp) poisioning from drinking contaminated water. Waaaa!!! Give them Sunny Delight next time.

Your a single mom with 2 kids and a catastrophic illness wipes out your life savings but the new bankruptcy law says "Pay Up Bitch!!"

After weak gov't oversight massive stock market scandals caused your portfolio to implode and pensions are a thing of the past. But at least you have your social secu..no wait. President skywalker said the nation can no longer afford it after spending 500 billion to rebuild "insert Middle Eastern country here". Waaaa!! just cut your throat already old man....

LMAO, funny

 

[HardHat87]

Very political thread, very interesting to see everyones perspective. To answer some questions: I did not know about the gm pension tax, I dont work there but my company doesnt do that.
On average with benifits included the pay equals about$55 an hour.
The conditions I work in would make a lot of people vomit. It gets up to 120 degrees in the summer, there is a cloud of thick smog inside the whole plant, the chemicals I inhale from my machine cause cancer after long term exposure, the floor is covered with oil, and on and on. I am not complaining, although I dont like the job, but pays more than most jobs you have to have a college degree for. There are many people there with masters, and bachlors degrees.
In my opinion in the next 20 years there will be very few auto plants in the US due to cheap labor in other parts of the world. Our company has plants throughout Europe and in Mexico, which the can produce the same product for much less. Auto factories and auto parts factories are closing at a fast rate now, so the high paid auto worker will be put to a end. What to do: Get some other skills, or go back to college as I am doing now. I believe the plant I work for will be closed in 2007.
About the China cars, I did see a special on tv about them, and they do need much improvment before they could think of marketing them in the US, but they may be great cars in 20 years, never know, but now they are junk.

 

[CFZB]

People.......People who need .......People

 

[75th]

No I dont want to fight...he knows alot about money....I have my areas too..

oh well...

LOL what are these areas you speak of...how to split your time between multiple internet handles?

Moron.

 

[75th]

By the way, looks like they realized how idiotic they were:

UAW Now Says Marines Can Park In Lot
Foreign Cars, Bush Bumper Stickers Previously Not Welcome

POSTED: 7:01 pm EST March 14, 2005
UPDATED: 7:17 pm EST March 14, 2005

After telling Marine reservists who drive foreign vehicles or display pro-President Bush bumper stickers they no longer could use a parking lot at the United Auto Workers headquarters, union officials have changed their minds.

The union, which has offices near a Marine Corps Reserve Center in Detroit, reversed its decision after some people said it reflected a lack of support for the Marines and the service of reservists.

"I made the wrong call on the parking issue and I have notified the Marine Corps that all reservists are welcome to park at Solidarity House as they have for the past 10 years," UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said in a statement released by the union.

Gettelfinger noted that he had served in the Marine Corps Reserves.

Officials for the Marine Corps Reserve Center could not immediately be reached for comment.

The UAW has a history of barring foreign-made cars from its lots.

Complete Statement From UAW

Here is the statement that Local 4 received Monday by UAW President Gettelfinger on Marine Reservists parking at UAW headquarters.

"I have reconsidered and reversed my decision not to allow Marine reservists to park non-union made vehicles or vehicles displaying Bush stickers at Solidarity House on weekends.

"Some people may have thought my orginal decision reflected a lack of support for the Marine Corps and the service of Marine reservists.

"That certainly was not my intention. Having served in the Marine Corps Reserves myself, I fully appreciate the sacrifices and contributions made by America's reservists, National Guard members and active duty military personnel and their families.

"That said, I made the wrong call on the parking issue, and I have notified the Marine Corps that all reservists are welcome to park at Solidarity House as they have for the past 10 years.

"I regret that the controversy over this decision has overshadowed the many good things the UAW and our members are doing to support and express our appreciation to America's service men and women and veterans."

 

[Mr. dB]

wasnt tierra del fuego car an AMC model

Maybe you're thinking of the Renault Fuego. Renaults were sold in America by AMC at the time.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

The company that you worked for for 29.9 years just fired you..1 month short of collecting a pension..too fucking bad. You should have worked someplace else.

Hey man, life is hard, should have foregone the pension and invested elsewhere. Take repsonsibility for your own retirement, don't wait for your corporate mommy and daddy to do it, ya heard?

The company that you worked for just locked you out of your 401K as its value tanked and wiped out 90% of your savings...too fucking bad. You should have invested someplace else.

Diversify. Rule #1 of investing. Let's get on to the next whine.

The power company manipulated the states power grid...causing rates to rise 500%....too fucking bad. Have a wood stove handy next time.

See, this only works when there is a monopoly on power, which I would not endorse. Nutty ass.

The doctor accidently cut off your legs during surgery. You sue and only collect $10,000 because of lawsuit caps in place. Waaaa!! Go get a job as a side show freak...

The lawsuit solution: Loser pays. Done. No caps.

All of your kids have mercuray(sp) poisioning from drinking contaminated water. Waaaa!!! Give them Sunny Delight next time.

Mercury. Yes, this happens all the time.

Your a single mom with 2 kids and a catastrophic illness wipes out your life savings but the new bankruptcy law says "Pay Up Bitch!!"

Yes, all those single moms with massive life savings. LOL.

Here's the thing bor: Life is unfair as shit. My best friend was a good kid, good grades, good athlete....everyone loved him....but he still died at 16. My cousin is a "dykes on bikes" lesbian, alcoholic, chainsmoker, shitbird. She won $8M in the lottery a while back.

Shit happens, bor, and you can't legislate that away. Not everyone can be born with every advantage, and we do more harm than good when we try to "equalize" things.

After weak gov't oversight massive stock market scandals caused your portfolio to implode and pensions are a thing of the past. But at least you have your social secu..no wait. President skywalker said the nation can no longer afford it after spending 500 billion to rebuild "insert Middle Eastern country here". Waaaa!! just cut your throat already old man....

President Skywalker would cancel Social Security ASAP. Wouldn't even be an issue.

And my platform would be like this:


My government will protect your rights, your individual rights: Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness...and the ones in the Bill of Rights.

Other than that, this life is pretty tough, so you better do your best. We'll give you maximum freedom to do that....and that's it.

 

[d3track]

mts

you're setting up my portfolio......

 

[Razorguns]

My government will protect your rights, your individual rights: Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness...and the ones in the Bill of Rights.

Other than that, this life is pretty tough, so you better do your best. We'll give you maximum freedom to do that....and that's it.

ahem,

"...and free Blow Jobs for all".

You're slackin' on us MTS! What gives??!!

 

[PIGEON-RAT]

I am in the UAW and the only auto workers in it work for either Ford,GM, or Crysler. A lexus is made by Toyota which has no union. And none of the prices of new cars go to pensions.

The Big Three pay out retirement benefits to almost 500,000 retirees, compared to their current employee base of about 300,000.

70% of Ford's $2.8 billion health bill goes to retirees.

The $1,900 value that Matt quoted going to pensions/healthcare costs is money that foreign automakers can spend on better features which naturally makes them more competitive.

Trade around the world is being progressively liberalized with tariffs and barriers to trade among industrialized nations being reduced year after year. As a part of the WTO the US government is very unlikely to give aid through tariffs to US automakers, so if the Big Three want to remain competitive in the world market, they're going to have to increase their own cost efficiency. It's just too bad that the UAW is the major obstacle to this, so the Big Three will not be able to adapt to increasing international competition, and therefore face two options in the future, bailout or bankruptcy.

Bailout is very unlikely. So bankruptcy seems inevitable, and in this case the companies will likely be bought by Japanese automakers and massively downsized, leaving many workers without jobs. Union contracts will also be terminated to decrease costs.

So in the end, those inflexible union contracts actually caused a major hinderance in competition, a major loss in jobs, and a loss of an industry.

The only reason the Big Three are still around are tariffs, and the fact that the UAW reluctantly accepted wage cuts in the 80's to save its members' jobs. Americans are stubborn and will refuse to accept further wage cuts, so they'll lose their jobs entirely when the Chinese flood the market.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

So in the end, those inflexible union contracts actually caused a major hinderance in competition, a major loss in jobs, and a loss of an industry.

Bingo!

Same is happening now in the airline industry. They got their bailout, now they are seeking a pension bailout. I hope it does not happen.

Does the US need an auto industry? Can Americans buy their cars without an auto industry?

If we had no real auto industry, tariffs on foreign cars would be lower, so the prices would drop, so we could all afford nicer cars.

 

[milo hobgoblin]

You all are using ridiculous extremes like the UAW and airline bailouts to justify extremes of your own (MATT)

Under your system.. you would have a small.. very high income class of well educated elites and a HUGE class of very low wage workers competing for jobs with immigrants who will work for pennies an hour because they settle for substandard living conditions (i.e. 4 faimilies living in a household.. )

While I do not agree with the whole union idea.. if they were aboloshied, the Corporate America would revert almost immediately back to late 19th century work habits.. hiring the cheapest labor.. they have already proven this when given the opportunity to outsource to incompetent offshore labor for many technical jobs. Any coder/tech/engineer will tell you time and time again how much work they have to redo becase of some incompetent fucktard in India.

There has to be a happy medium.. you want pure individual freedom in the workplace.. you HAVE to find some way to keep us from competing with people who will live in a sewer and work for a bowl of rice.

No,.. I do NOT think an auto worker should make 40 dollars an hour.. its only a moderately skilled job... but he should still make enough to live in the country in which he is employed.

And face it Matt (LOL president skywalker) you havnt given any sort of explanation on how the average worker could survive .. live, eat, even pay his rent with the sytem your proposing.

You present a very capitialist model.. that provides no concession to the worker.. no protection.

You act as if corporate America actually had the interest of its citizens at heart.. as well as making a profit.. but only the few in the top tiers will benefit from your model.

There is a COST to maintaining resources in a first world country.. having roads to drive those cars on, banks to put your money in, systems to protect the populace..

you act as if all those things are just "free" and exist with no cost. You want grocery stores, blockbusters movie stores, malls...

yet under your system.. all that would disappear.. because a nation of low paid immigrant workers sure as hell aint gonna shop there.

You all seem to forget.. barring some minor tweaks to labor unions, CONTROLLING immigration and outsourcing, and coming up with a better privatized social security system.. what we have WORKS. MOST people in this country own a car, TV, live in a somewhat decent apartment or house.

But you just pour in the cheapest labor that the market demands.. and thats all gone. Our society would crumble into a huge ghetto of crime infested dumps.

Pure capitialism works no better than pure communism. And the reality is they are no different in the end.. a nation of renters spending every but of their income on land owned by large corporations and banks.. vs a nation of people living in government sponsored housing doing as little as possible becasue they will NEVER get ahead.

either way the average Joe is fucked.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

You all are using ridiculous extremes like the UAW and airline bailouts to justify extremes of your own (MATT)

Thing is, they are not ridiculous, they are real, and they are happening right now under our current system. The impacts include higher costs of cars and travel, (everyone pays more), and increased burden on government. These are neither ridiculous nor extreme, they are concrete and realistic.

Under your system.. you would have a small.. very high income class of well educated elites and a HUGE class of very low wage workers competing for jobs with immigrants who will work for pennies an hour because they settle for substandard living conditions (i.e. 4 faimilies living in a household.. )

Now that is extreme. And it is purely theoretical. The market will price labor. Like it prices paper towels. Like it prices houses and stocks. Like it prices labor anyway.

While I do not agree with the whole union idea.. if they were aboloshied, the Corporate America would revert almost immediately back to late 19th century work habits.. hiring the cheapest labor.. they have already proven this when given the opportunity to outsource to incompetent offshore labor for many technical jobs. Any coder/tech/engineer will tell you time and time again how much work they have to redo becase of some incompetent fucktard in India.

Most union-originated protections are now statutory. So immediate reversion is impossible. Some shakeout is possible, but my job is not union protected, nor are the 120 people who work here. Why would their wages fall?

There has to be a happy medium.. you want pure individual freedom in the workplace.. you HAVE to find some way to keep us from competing with people who will live in a sewer and work for a bowl of rice.

LOL at sewer and rice.

The answer is that Americans have to move UP the food chain in work. No more relying on the union to fix your wages via seniority by screwing buyers and using political influence to foreign competition.

You will earn what you are worth on the market.

No,.. I do NOT think an auto worker should make 40 dollars an hour.. its only a moderately skilled job... but he should still make enough to live in the country in which he is employed.

And face it Matt (LOL president skywalker) you havnt given any sort of explanation on how the average worker could survive .. live, eat, even pay his rent with the sytem your proposing.

Because markets fix prices. If the per capita income of a city is 40K, you can't sell houses for $2M. Try listing a house for $1M in rural Ohio. No buyers. Do it in Santa Barbara - the house goes pretty fast.

Prices follow wages. Lower wages, and prices will drop. And that grants that wages will actually drop, which you have not explained in terms other than "the sky would fall".

You present a very capitialist model.. that provides no concession to the worker.. no protection.

You act as if corporate America actually had the interest of its citizens at heart.. as well as making a profit.. but only the few in the top tiers will benefit from your model.

No protection...except that the worker could quit any time.

I have 100 employees. I find that the interest of workers and my interests are mutually aligned. If I push wages down too far I get worse employees, and I lose whatever I saved. If I push them too high, I dont get return on investment past a certain point.

There is a COST to maintaining resources in a first world country.. having roads to drive those cars on, banks to put your money in, systems to protect the populace..

Roads and police require taxes; I never suggested anarchy or that govedrnment can operate without taxes....you are getting very far afield.

you act as if all those things are just "free" and exist with no cost. You want grocery stores, blockbusters movie stores, malls...

yet under your system.. all that would disappear.. because a nation of low paid immigrant workers sure as hell aint gonna shop there.

Incorrect.

Creation of wealth occurs when inefficiencies are worked out of business; friction decreases. 1 machine did more work than 100 factory workers 100 years ago. Thus, wealth grew. More goods were made and sold to more people for lower prices.

But it takes brainpower to create a machine. Since the market cares for wealth only, as you say, there is an incentive to have education and brainpower, to make the improvements that create more wealth, not to hire sewer people.

One computer running 10 machines can do the work of 100 machines, or 10000 sewer people. And thus more wealth is created, because some smart guy invented a computer. But now we need people who can run computers,and we can't pay them sewer wages, because sewer people can't do it. Thus a middle class forms.

Increasing wealth - the goal of the market - requires increasing education. Increased education means breakthroughs so that more people can share in the wealth.

The end state is not the sewer factory, it is the technologically advanced business that has reduced all inefficiencies. Before our business, there was an insurance industry. And it made some people very rich. But we figured out how to do some stuff better. So we made even more money for our clients, and they got even richer. But so did we.

Our insurance clients wanted to get richer. We showed them how. Capitalism means "money flows where return on investment is highest", and in a technologically advanced world (i.e. reality) that means knowledge. Knowledge requires education, and knowledge is expensive. Sewer immigrants have no knowledge; thus they are useless in today's high wage environment.

Our nation will not backslide; capitalism prevents this as the market seeks growth. And as efficiencies are increased, prices drop. Our biz makes insurance cheaper for everyone; this is the natural result of a competitive, capitalist environment.

You all seem to forget.. barring some minor tweaks to labor unions, CONTROLLING immigration and outsourcing, and coming up with a better privatized social security system.. what we have WORKS. MOST people in this country own a car, TV, live in a somewhat decent apartment or house.

Illogical, untrue, irrelevant.

But you just pour in the cheapest labor that the market demands.. and thats all gone. Our society would crumble into a huge ghetto of crime infested dumps.

Disproven above.

Pure capitialism works no better than pure communism. And the reality is they are no different in the end.. a nation of renters spending every but of their income on land owned by large corporations and banks.. vs a nation of people living in government sponsored housing doing as little as possible becasue they will NEVER get ahead.

either way the average Joe is fucked.

Unadulterated misinformation that ignores the reality of today's economy.

Sorry bor, I respect your goals of creating and sustaining opportunity for everyone, but you're ignoring the reality of today's knowledge economy.

 

[milo hobgoblin]

The whole problem with your arguement is your "knowledge" economy is benefitting fewer and fewer people.

I work in the "knowledge" and "technology" industry and I see this every day from the inside. Giant IT corporations outsourcing to cheap labor.. using one highly educated American worker to spend his time fixing the work for a dozen offshore laborers. A dozen laborers who are working for 20-30% of the American counterpart who was laid off and now has to go back to school again, live in poverty and try and find a new job.

You make the same mistake as Marx.. you provide a wonderful "paper" arguement.. but when faced with reality.. it fails miserably.

Funny thing Matt... the only example of runaway capitialism.. (late 19th century America) failed as miserably for the masses as Communism did. And it wasnt until government controls put the brakes on it.. did you see a correction.

When are you going to figure it out.. not everyone has the luxury of spending years in college.. getting multiple degrees and living in a state of financial independence that you seem to maintain. They have families, daily costs.. that dont allow them to just get a new job at the drop of a hat..

Gee hopefully the bank will understand, I lost my job .. not only lost it.. it was eliminated because my company could make their stocks look better by selling my whole division to China.

Well time to go.. as always.. enjoying your stuff. Gives all of us a lot to think about.

 

[CFZB]

The whole problem with your arguement is your "knowledge" economy is benefitting fewer and fewer people.

I work in the "knowledge" and "technology" industry and I see this every day from the inside. Giant IT corporations outsourcing to cheap labor.. using one highly educated American worker to spend his time fixing the work for a dozen offshore laborers. A dozen laborers who are working for 20-30% of the American counterpart who was laid off and now has to go back to school again, live in poverty and try and find a new job.

You make the same mistake as Marx.. you provide a wonderful "paper" arguement.. but when faced with reality.. it fails miserably.

Funny thing Matt... the only example of runaway capitialism.. (late 19th century America) failed as miserably for the masses as Communism did. And it wasnt until government controls put the brakes on it.. did you see a correction.

When are you going to figure it out.. not everyone has the luxury of spending years in college.. getting multiple degrees and living in a state of financial independence that you seem to maintain. They have families, daily costs.. that dont allow them to just get a new job at the drop of a hat..

Gee hopefully the bank will understand, I lost my job .. not only lost it.. it was eliminated because my company could make their stocks look better by selling my whole division to China.

Well time to go.. as always.. enjoying your stuff. Gives all of us a lot to think about.

he doesnt care.

thats his point.

I just thank Jebus that half does ...

and the other half has to be lied to so people with his Philosophy can be in power.

 

[WODIN]

Damn...I thought the mid 80s...90s...was the knowledge economy. LOL!!!

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

The whole problem with your arguement is your "knowledge" economy is benefitting fewer and fewer people.

Only in the short term. Few people benefited from early industrialization. Farmers were bitching about lost labor. Carriage makers bitched when cars came out.

Shall we go backward just to save carriage makers?

I work in the "knowledge" and "technology" industry and I see this every day from the inside. Giant IT corporations outsourcing to cheap labor.. using one highly educated American worker to spend his time fixing the work for a dozen offshore laborers.

In other words, the skilled American becomes more valuable, and the price of the finished product drops. This is how wealth is created. Even if this wealth goes right to the CEO's pocket, he is either going to spend it (yay boosts economy) or save it (yay gives banks money to invest).

A dozen laborers who are working for 20-30% of the American counterpart who was laid off and now has to go back to school again, live in poverty and try and find a new job.

The alternative is we "freeze" progress and save the carriage maker. So what if we have no more cars?

The wealth created by this system goes BACK into the economy and creates opportunity for the displaced worker. Cars made the world better for the displaced carriage maker.

You and those who take your position make the mistake of pointing to the few individuals that lose out and say "the whole system is fucked". That's completely fallacious...not to be confused with "fellatio", which is how PERFECTWORLD earns extra money since the Bush admin cut his arms off.

You make the same mistake as Marx.. you provide a wonderful "paper" arguement.. but when faced with reality.. it fails miserably.

Wow, 29 years old and they are comparing me to one of the greatest thinkers of the modern era. Sweet.

Except you have it backwards. Marx's system crushed the masses while those who controlled it reaped rewards. Capitalism provides more wealth and more opportunity for the larger groups by producing more wealth which is spent, while displacing only smaller groups.

Capitalism is 100% opposite of marx.

Funny thing Matt... the only example of runaway capitialism.. (late 19th century America) failed as miserably for the masses as Communism did. And it wasnt until government controls put the brakes on it.. did you see a correction.

Incorrect. Unchecked capitalism transformed the US from an agrarian country to an industrial powerhouse. Railroads, steel mills, home heating oil, automobiles and airplanes all brought to you courtesy of capitalist pigs. At no time in our nation's history have we advanced so fast.

By comparison, government intervention into the economy and our banking system brought us the great depression.

When are you going to figure it out.. not everyone has the luxury of spending years in college.. getting multiple degrees and living in a state of financial independence that you seem to maintain. They have families, daily costs.. that dont allow them to just get a new job at the drop of a hat..

Gee hopefully the bank will understand, I lost my job .. not only lost it.. it was eliminated because my company could make their stocks look better by selling my whole division to China.

You can't use a few sob story exceptions to discredit the system.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Damn...I thought the mid 80s...90s...was the knowledge economy. LOL!!!

No, now is the knowledge economy, when you're in your 80s and 90s.

 

[Razorguns]

But you just pour in the cheapest labor that the market demands.. and thats all gone. Our society would crumble into a huge ghetto of crime infested dumps

Everything i would say has already been covered by Matt -- but i just have one thing to add to this point:

Knowledge is power. Knowledge creates *value* and *worth*. Two words which set your compensation more than anything else.

If your theory above was true, i wouldn't be making 6 figures here in southern california.

I'm a highly trained, skilled, educated engineer, technology innovator with years of experience in management and analysis.

I'm live in and surrounded by cities full of uneducated, untrained, unskilled, illegal, janitors and fast food workers. Should i complain? Of course not. Why? Cuz my value and worth increases due to my location and scarce resources of people of my calibre.

Translation: I can *command* a high salary.

I have recruiters breakin' down my roof to have me come in for interviews. I keep turning them down. Hello Free Market! Hallelujah! Chalk me up as a success story.

I also am part of no union, but my compensation is still pretty high. That's because the free market in my city is what's setting my salary.

So not all is bad. In my case -- it can be a godsend.

The strength of this country is not the ability to turn a wrench. It's the knowledge and education we possess and others don't, of how best to turn that wrench.

 

[EnderJE]

Let's save the carriage makers!

Whenever someone brings up something that could halt progress, I always remember this old Italian man who use to go through my old neighbourhood and offer his knife sharpening skills. He'd come around with his horse and cart and ring his bell for his service.

As time passed, more and more people stopped using his service because they all bought those self-sharpening knives. Sure, not as good, but they did the job.

I remember that man on his last day in the middle of Spring about 25 years ago. He told me that he was being squeezed out because of progress and that the world wouldn't have a place for him anymore. But, all in all, he was happy because his sons would prosper in this new world. He started on his merry way and I overheard some older kids be cruel to the man for being stupid to try and peddle his outdated wares.

There I was some bright eyed kid and all I could think was on how no one really gave a crap for that guy. I felt sorry for him, but I was a little happy that he was content with his place and his decisions because he could see the value of moving on.

So, 25 years later, when I see people bitching about progress, I sit and wonder about that old man who I had a chat with along time ago. He saw and understood the value of progress, why can't the people now?

 

[BrothaBill]

Definerogress.

You fear change and all that’s new
Stand in the way of progress
Like primitive man afraid of fire
’till he explored it’s many uses

The power of the atom at our disposal
Yet it is called unsafe
Nuclear energy so clean and pure
Your ignorance is a disgrace

Do not resist
It is your destiny
Have we not all become
The children of technology

Holding your fate in a magnetic grip
Of all your irrational fears
The shadow of machinery cast upon the flesh of man
Blood, sweat, and gears
The robots of dawn offsprings the industry
Spot you in the cobalt blue light
One fell swoop and you’ve become a memory
Away with your intrusive life

Into the reactor PerfectWorld!

You worship a dead man hung with nails
Only a fool would die for the sins of humanity
On your knees before electronics
Lets replace this religious insanity
Tear down the churches instead on the ground
Build there the holy reactors
Give us the children science and math
In place of bibles and pastors

You bleeding heart liberals
Who oppose the nuclear regulatory commission
Must be compelled to retire
You serve only as obstacles and should be used
To fuel the nuclear pyre

 

[BrothaBill]

PW, how do you insert photos like that? I havent tried before, tell me the secret maing

 

[BrothaBill]

fantastic then.

excuse me while i run screaming into oblivion.

thanks.

PW I have so many medical books and pictures that would haunt you if that bugs you that is just a mutation, nothing new about them, they occur same with the cow going back to the first beginnings of life, nothing to scream at.

 

[rsnoble-im-back]

No unions, no pensions, cheap chinese cars.

Just a contiunuation of the big race to the bottom. A few more decades this country is going to be a real shit pit for the majority. Theres nothing wrong with trying to have good jobs and benefits. Id rather have that and have a lot of people doing well for themselves instead of every family owning some slant eyed fuking turd box and living underneath a goddamn fuing bridge.

Just like walmart whoring out every industry. Bank tellers used to be paid well, then banks realized they were overpaid and anyone could do it, and walmart will realize that their still overpaid and that imported fuking monkeys from the burning rain forests could do the job.

So.......you sorry ass mothefukers keep promoting your fuking free trade garbage and I will guarantee you a country that will be chock full of hungry starving 10 jobs per person no health insurance sickly sonofabithes and everything will be goinmg to total shit. Basically what your asking for is to lower your country's standards to that of the Chinese.

So saying that--you can eat shit fuk off and die.

End of fuking story.