Newbie cycles that vets could learn from.

[Realgains]

NEWBIES..... you would do very well following this advice.
Vets.......... maybe we have something to learn still.

After doing much digging in regard to the way men used to cycle years ago I have come to the conclusion that 98% of us use too much gear....please read on.

I have always been a believer in using as little gear as possible but even I have used way too much in the past and this has resulted in big sides.

Here are examples of cycles used by the pro's of the late 60's and 70's. They were certainly well developed men actually looked better then most of the pro's today IMHO.

My Hero The late great Mike Mentzer was considered a man living on the edge in the late 70's and up until he retired after the 80 Olympia.

MIKE MENTZER
In prep for the 80 Olympia Mike used 400 of deca and 20 or 30 of d-bol per day. I think it was actually 20 of d-bol . I believe he took the d-bol for 4-6 weeks only.This was considered a BIG dose of juice. This was published in his "Heavy Duty Journal" and was well know . Mike was one of the only Bodybuilders that made "no bones" about his roid use.
Now Mike was a big guy and very strong and walked around in the off season at about 250 fairly lean pounds at 5'-9"

The following I got from Nelson Montana.

ARNOLD
He reported liked 600 of primo and 50 of d-bol per day.

SERGIO
This huge bro used 200 of deca/week and 20 of winny per day.

FRANK ZANE
Frank likeed 100 of deca and 100 of primo and was know to use a little thyroid as well.

DAVE DRAPER
Dave used 25 of winny per day way back in the late 60's

LARRY SCOTT
Larry used 10 of d-bol in divided doses per day. This was considered a large dose back in the mid 60's

Now all these guys are bigger than 95% of the members of this board I am sure and if they didn't need large doses then why do you?
Do what they did......be a lifter first and then use a little roid as a SUPPLEMENT.

Unless you are 40 or more pounds above your natural maximum weight AND are a top competitor I see no reason to use high doses of gear. Even Quadsweep "The Voice of Reason" who is a top national level competitor doesn't use half the juice that many of you use.

It has been said by many that gains made slowly and in smaller jumps are kept better. I for one strongly believe this. The human body is not meant to gain 30 pounds of bulk in 8 weeks..much of that will be lost post cycle as the body just can't hold it all at once. It makes much better sence to gain slowly but surely. It is better for your health and the low doses avoid the puffy watery look that was not even acceaptable in the off season in 1975.


Perhaps we all need to re-think how we use steroids.

Realgains suggestions for the newbies.

200 of deca/week for 10 weeks and 10- 20 of d-bol per day for 4-6 weeks in divided doses.

200 of deca/week for 10 weeks and 25 of winstrol per day for 4-6 weeks

250 of test alone for 8-10 weeks

250-400 of primo alone

250-300 of EQ alone

10-20 of d-bol alone in four divided doses per day for 6 weeks

Good luck!





RG

 

[Texas Ranger]

Great post, Realgains!! I see posts about the Gear use of some of the former Mr.Olympias and have to shake my head. Arnold did 50mgs of Dbol a day and 600mgs of Primo, Sergio did 200mgs of Deca and 20mgs of Winstrol, and Dave Draper did 25mgs of Winstrol a day! These guys had AWESOME physiques!!! Now we have newbies doing a gram of Gear for their First Cycle-Test@500mgs, Deca@400mgs, and Dbol@30mgs a day. What's worse is we have Vets actually advising them to do it!!! It's sad....

 

[Realgains]

NEWBIES..... you would do very well following this advice.
Vets.......... maybe we have something to learn still.

After doing much digging in regard to the way men used to cycle years ago I have come to the conclusion that 98% of us use too much gear....please read on.

I have always been a believer in using as little gear as possible but even I have used way too much in the past and this has resulted in big sides.

Here are examples of cycles used by the pro's of the late 60's and 70's. They were certainly well developed men actually looked better then most of the pro's today IMHO.

My Hero The late great Mike Mentzer was considered a man living on the edge in the late 70's and up until he retired after the 80 Olympia.

MIKE MENTZER
In prep for the 80 Olympia Mike used 400 of deca and 20 or 30 of d-bol per day. I think it was actually 20 of d-bol . I believe he took the d-bol for 4-6 weeks only.This was considered a BIG dose of juice. This was published in his "Heavy Duty Journal" and was well know . Mike was one of the only Bodybuilders that made "no bones" about his roid use.
Now Mike was a big guy and very strong and walked around in the off season at about 250 fairly lean pounds at 5'-9"

The following I got from Nelson Montana.

ARNOLD
He reported liked 600 of primo and 50 of d-bol per day.

SERGIO
This huge bro used 200 of deca/week and 20 of winny per day.

FRANK ZANE
Frank likeed 100 of deca and 100 of primo and was know to use a little thyroid as well.

DAVE DRAPER
Dave used 25 of winny per day way back in the late 60's

LARRY SCOTT
Larry used 10 of d-bol in divided doses per day. This was considered a large dose back in the mid 60's

Now all these guys are bigger than 95% of the members of this board I am sure and if they didn't need large doses then why do you?
Do what they did......be a lifter first and then use a little roid as a SUPPLEMENT.

Unless you are 40 or more pounds above your natural maximum weight AND are a top competitor I see no reason to use high doses of gear. Even Quadsweep "The Voice of Reason" who is a top national level competitor doesn't use half the juice that many of you use.

It has been said by many that gains made slowly and in smaller jumps are kept better. I for one strongly believe this. The human body is not meant to gain 30 pounds of bulk in 8 weeks..much of that will be lost post cycle as the body just can't hold it all at once. It makes much better sence to gain slowly but surely. It is better for your health and the low doses avoid the puffy watery look that was not even acceaptable in the off season in 1975.


Perhaps we all need to re-think how we use steroids.

Realgains suggestions for the newbies.

200 of deca/week for 10 weeks and 10- 20 of d-bol per day for 4-6 weeks in divided doses. Clomid at 300mg on day one in divided doses 3 weeks after the last deca shot and 50 per day for 4 weeks.

200 of deca/week for 10 weeks and 25 of winstrol per day for 4-6 weeks. Colimid as above

BUT WHY STACK there really is little need to. SO TRY.......

250 of test alone for 8-10 weeks. Clomid at 300 per day in divided doses on day one and then 50 per day for 4 weeks...unless you use sust which in that case start clomid three weeks after your last shot.

250-400 of primo alone. Clomid as with the sust above.

250-300 of EQ alone. Clomid as with the the primo and sust above...maybe strting the clomid about 17-18 days after the last shot.

10-20 of d-bol alone in four divided doses per day for 6 weeks. Clomid at 300 per day the day after your last d-bol. 300 on day one and then 50 per day for 3-4 weeks.

The strongest stack would be 250 of test per week and 25- 50 of tren per day...more than enough and expect bad acne with this one. Clomid 300 per day two weeks after the last cyp or enanthate shot, three weeks after sust and then 50 per day for 4 weeks.

In all the cycles of 8 weeks or more it may be wise ton use HCG at 500 iu's per day either IM or sub Q in the lower belly fat during the last two weeks of the cycle. This will get the testes up to 100% size so they can respond well to LH from the pituitary after the cycle ends. In this way your natural test will jump back quickly and you will loose less.

The mildest stack is the primo and you won't need hcg with this one at all.

Not: If using the aromatizing gear Test, d-bol and even EQ be sure to have nolvadex on hand and take 20 per day if the nipples start to feel sore.

Good luck!





RG

 

[chrisoh]

not everyone reacts the same to smaller doses, those guys are probably exceptions and reacted very well. In my first cycle, i needed 100mg of winny/day and almost 100mg/fina to see results, lower doses would've given me crap. I did everything right, didnt feel a pump till i upped to those doses... but i did gain 25lbs on a cutting cycle

 

[Mike P.T.]

Although I do agree with you that far too many people on here use too high of a dose to get that quick fix(competitive vets do not apply because in all honesty, they do what they have to do even though personally I would never) you also have to remember that not everyone on here has the genetics of the individuals you just mentioned. They were your genetic elite. They didn't even have access to proper training and supplements back then. Another thing is that you never know if they lied about their doseages either. I mean how do you really know if that's all they used.

I have even changed my mind about longer more moderate cycles(6months I tried just this past cycle) for my personal goals and will do moderate length(8-10 weeks on) moderately low doseage cycles for my upcoming cycles from now on. Everyone has their priorites and mine have definately changed.

BTW - The newbie cycles you mentioned are excellent suggestions.

 

[Realgains]

Could it be that the reason some do not react to low doses is because they are not training, eating and sleeping well. There are a shit load of people out there that don't train well and are over trained.
If you can't make good gains initailly off of 10-20 of d-bol then you are doing something very wrong!

RG

 

[Quadsweep]

There you go Real.....Stuck! While I do think people should use low doses as much as possible for as long as, I do have to admit that my dosages have accelerated a lot this year. I am still using far less than many of the people I compete aginst but I have posted my cycles and they are pretty high now but if you wanna run with the big dogs..........If it is just for yourself and you do not compete take your time a little bit......Rome was not built in a day!

Quad

P.S. Good Post Realgains!

 

[chrisoh]

i wonder if you can run var or winny year round at around 20mg

 

[Mike P.T.]

Could it be that the reason some do not react to low doses is because they are not training, eating and sleeping well. There are a shit load of people out there that don't train well and are over trained.
If you can't make good gains initailly off of 10-20 of d-bol then you are doing something very wrong!

RG

VERY TRUE!! But still others are just impatient or some really are genetically challenged in the way they gain naturally and in how their individual receptors handle juice. Far too many people though with good genetics are just lazy or really impatient though and don't want to learn how to train or eat right.

 

[Texas Ranger]

I agree with Mike P.T 100%!! Think about this- Normal males on the average produce between 50-70mgs of Test a week. The guys producing 70mgs a week are considered genetic freaks! When someone recommends a newbie to use Test Enanthate or Cyp@250mgs a week, they get laughed at. Without the ester, that's 180mgs of free Testosterone for a newbie!! That's 2-3 times what we produce on our own!! And you STILL can't make gains???

 

[MoreBeefPlease]

i agree with what you guys have said but how long were they on for. 5 weeks, 3 months, all year. i have heard of pros who say they cycle which they do but are actually on all year. they may go 2grams a week then cycle 6 grams/w for a period then go back to 2gr/w. so essentially cycling but on all year round.

 

[chrisoh]

Arnold's nowhere near his size 25 years ago but he still looks pretty damned good for 50+

 

[Fonz]

NEWBIES..... you would do very well following this advice.
Vets.......... maybe we have something to learn still.

After doing much digging in regard to the way men used to cycle years ago I have come to the conclusion that 98% of us use too much gear....please read on.

I have always been a believer in using as little gear as possible but even I have used way too much in the past and this has resulted in big sides.

Here are examples of cycles used by the pro's of the late 60's and 70's. They were certainly well developed men actually looked better then most of the pro's today IMHO.

My Hero The late great Mike Mentzer was considered a man living on the edge in the late 70's and up until he retired after the 80 Olympia.

MIKE MENTZER
In prep for the 80 Olympia Mike used 400 of deca and 20 or 30 of d-bol per day. I think it was actually 20 of d-bol . I believe he took the d-bol for 4-6 weeks only.This was considered a BIG dose of juice. This was published in his "Heavy Duty Journal" and was well know . Mike was one of the only Bodybuilders that made "no bones" about his roid use.
Now Mike was a big guy and very strong and walked around in the off season at about 250 fairly lean pounds at 5'-9"

The following I got from Nelson Montana.

ARNOLD
He reported liked 600 of primo and 50 of d-bol per day.

SERGIO
This huge bro used 200 of deca/week and 20 of winny per day.

FRANK ZANE
Frank likeed 100 of deca and 100 of primo and was know to use a little thyroid as well.

DAVE DRAPER
Dave used 25 of winny per day way back in the late 60's

LARRY SCOTT
Larry used 10 of d-bol in divided doses per day. This was considered a large dose back in the mid 60's

Now all these guys are bigger than 95% of the members of this board I am sure and if they didn't need large doses then why do you?
Do what they did......be a lifter first and then use a little roid as a SUPPLEMENT.

Unless you are 40 or more pounds above your natural maximum weight AND are a top competitor I see no reason to use high doses of gear. Even Quadsweep "The Voice of Reason" who is a top national level competitor doesn't use half the juice that many of you use.

It has been said by many that gains made slowly and in smaller jumps are kept better. I for one strongly believe this. The human body is not meant to gain 30 pounds of bulk in 8 weeks..much of that will be lost post cycle as the body just can't hold it all at once. It makes much better sence to gain slowly but surely. It is better for your health and the low doses avoid the puffy watery look that was not even acceaptable in the off season in 1975.


Perhaps we all need to re-think how we use steroids.

Realgains suggestions for the newbies.

200 of deca/week for 10 weeks and 10- 20 of d-bol per day for 4-6 weeks in divided doses.

200 of deca/week for 10 weeks and 25 of winstrol per day for 4-6 weeks

250 of test alone for 8-10 weeks

250-400 of primo alone

250-300 of EQ alone

10-20 of d-bol alone in four divided doses per day for 6 weeks

Good luck!





RG

Good post. One thing though.

The dball dosages are bullshit.

The old pros ate them like Candy.

One guy used to have a jar full of dballs and he would take a handful a couple of times/day.

Fonz

 

[Dizzy]

Great post RealGains. I agree that most people are using way too much. And if they would eat, train, and rest properly then they would see much better results from lower doses.

I agree with MikePT as well though. These guys you mentioned are/were genetically gifted. I've seen guys do more sitting around the gym than work and they are simply monsters.

Some guys just respond better to higher or lower doses.

Texas Ranger - Wether a person is a freak or not does not rely on their natural test levels. The higher their levels the better yes...but it doesn't make the freak.

 

[Texas Ranger]

ChrisOh, Var and Winny(17 aa's) for an extended period of time are a bad idea.

 

[Burgboy]

A friend of mine whos post on elite did his first cycle....he's in his 30's 20 mg of dbol and 250 mg of sust a week....gained 30 pounds

 

[Texas Ranger]

Dizzy, I beg to differ. Just some food for thought; When do the majority of guys make the best gains, me included? I'd be willing to bet a years salary, it's between 17-21 years of age. And this is without knowing a lick about proper training or nutrition. Your natural Test is through the roof!!!

 

[Texas Ranger]

Up again!!

 

[Dizzy]

Dizzy, I beg to differ. Just some food for thought; When do the majority of guys make the best gains, me included? I'd be willing to bet a years salary, it's between 17-21 years of age. And this is without knowing a lick about proper training or nutrition. Your natural Test is through the roof!!!

Agreed 100%. Best gains would come around that time. But hardgainers go through that same time period. Some people are just born with more muscle and build muscle easier than others. It's in the genetic code...not the testes. lol

 

[Realgains]

Great post RealGains. I agree that most people are using way too much. And if they would eat, train, and rest properly then they would see much better results from lower doses.

I agree with MikePT as well though. These guys you mentioned are/were genetically gifted. I've seen guys do more sitting around the gym than work and they are simply monsters.

Some guys just respond better to higher or lower doses.

Texas Ranger - Wether a person is a freak or not does not rely on their natural test levels. The higher their levels the better yes...but it doesn't make the freak.

I don't think that high doses will do much if any more for the genetically challenged bro.

True the guys I mentioned were gifted but does that mean the average guy needs to take a gram of juice a week...maybe a little more but we have to be realistic I think.

RG

 

[Realgains]

FONZ.....from my reseach I have found that most of the pro's didn't pop the d-bol like candy although a few did namely Dave Johns for one.....he died of liver cancer at a young age too at around 35 I think.

Remember when Arnold voiced his opinion on the amount of gear being used lately by the pro's? This was about 5 years ago I think, maybe less.....he was not impressed to say the least. He said todays pro's take "far far more than we used to"

RG

 

[Big-Puncher]

All I have to say is excellent post RealGains. Absolutely excellent. Where were you when I did my first cycle, even though I have only done 2. My first cycle was 500mg sust and 50mg winny ED, sust for 12 weeks and winny for weeks 6-12.

 

[The Terminator]

The following I got from Nelson Montana.

ARNOLD
He reported liked 600 of primo and 50 of d-bol per day.

SERGIO
This huge bro used 200 of deca/week and 20 of winny per day.

FRANK ZANE
Frank likeed 100 of deca and 100 of primo and was know to use a little thyroid as well.

DAVE DRAPER
Dave used 25 of winny per day way back in the late 60's

LARRY SCOTT
Larry used 10 of d-bol in divided doses per day. This was considered a large dose back in the mid 60's

Now all these guys are bigger than 95% of the members of this board I am sure and if they didn't need large doses then why do you?
Do what they did......be a lifter first and then use a little roid as a SUPPLEMENT.

I don't think I buy that these doses as being the absolute truth just because Nelson Montana has stated so. While I do think most guys use too much right from the get go, does anyone really believe Sergio built that physique with 200 mg/deca and 20 mg/winny...and Zane, or any of them, I don't think I believe that. Recently Lee Priest said all he uses is like 400 mg/primo and one oral...c'mon now...

 

[Realgains]

TERMINATOR...

I have researched the same as Nelson but thought I would give him some credit as he got me going on the whole thing.

Why did Arnold say what he said about todays doses?

AND......Mike Mentzer was honest to a fault. He told everything the way it was bro thats for sure. He published his pre Olympia cycle in good faith and I believe he was telling the truth.

RG

 

[The Terminator]

Well I am sure that today's top guys are using FAR more than anyone ever even thought of 30 years ago, but look at the differences in physiques, pro BB's used to be good looking men 25 years ago, they look like circus freaks now...but I don't think anyone will ever know for sure exactly what they took except themselves. I seriously doubt they will ever come out and give exact cycles.

 

[freshr1]

References? I always find these posts hilarious. 10-20 dbol a day with some deca? lol.

Why would a pro ever reveal his real stack to anyone? Especially someone like Arnold. He's got no reason to, and he's ALWAYS downplayed his AAS use. In one interview he said he dabbled with them, but found they don't work that well. You believe that too? And have you seen Arnold's forehard and the gap in his teeth? Caused by primo huh? Think about it. This was back in the day when the juice flowed freely, there was little research, and no laws against it. Why would they limit their use to reasonable doses?

In fact, I've heard the exact opposite. I heard Arnold was on tons of juice and tried everything, including hGH from cadavers (before they could synthesise it). But who really knows? All I know is that no matter how much you train, or how awesome your diet it, you're not gonna look like any of those pros with 300mg of deca and a few tabs of dbol a day.

 

[Realgains]

References? I always find these posts hilarious. 10-20 dbol a day with some deca? lol.

Why would a pro ever reveal his real stack to anyone? Especially someone like Arnold. He's got no reason to, and he's ALWAYS downplayed his AAS use. In one interview he said he dabbled with them, but found they don't work that well. You believe that too? And have you seen Arnold's forehard and the gap in his teeth? Caused by primo huh? Think about it. This was back in the day when the juice flowed freely, there was little research, and no laws against it. Why would they limit their use to reasonable doses?

In fact, I've heard the exact opposite. I heard Arnold was on tons of juice and tried everything, including hGH from cadavers (before they could synthesise it). But who really knows? All I know is that no matter how much you train, or how awesome your diet it, you're not gonna look like any of those pros with 300mg of deca and a few tabs of dbol a day.

Bro Arnold had that gap between his teeth since he was 14....check out the old photo's of his very early years. Perhaps he did use GH though...Arnold never really came out and said what his doses were but Mike Mentzer did.
Mentzer was no bullshitter and prided himself on telling things like they were. I will try to find his Heavy Duty Journal booklet where he says he used 400 of deca and 20-30 of d-bol in prep for the 80 Olympia.

RG

 

[Fonz]

Bro Arnold had that gap between his teeth since he was 14....check out the old photo's of his very early years. Perhaps he did use GH though...Arnold never really came out and said what his doses were but Mike Mentzer did.
Mentzer was no bullshitter and prided himself on telling things like they were. I will try to find his Heavy Duty Journal booklet where he says he used 400 of deca and 20-30 of d-bol in prep for the 80 Olympia.

RG

Mike Mentzer I definately believe.

That guy trained like an animal.

But Arnold? No.

He took more than dball and Primo for sure.

Fonz

 

[manny78]

Mike Mentzer I definately believe.

That guy trained like an animal.

But Arnold? No.

He took more than dball and Primo for sure.

Fonz

he was probably on high dose of primo and dbols for very long periods. Dunno about GH. Remember that back in the early 80's GH was way too expensive since it wasn't taken from the same source (I believe human cells from dead bodies....not sure).

 

[Fonz]

he was probably on high dose of primo and dbols for very long periods. Dunno about GH. Remember that back in the early 80's GH was way too expensive since it wasn't taken from the same source (I believe human cells from dead bodies....not sure).

Yep.

And he also had heart bypass surgery not long ago.

That to me shows definate androgen abuse(probably dball)

Fonz

 

[Realgains]

I think d-bol is a great hormone for mass and I also think that 600 of primo and 50 of d-bol per day can get one pretty darn big if you train really hard , eat well and rest well.......but Arnold wasn't know for his brutal workouts.........he did have great genetics though..... damn it all.

Oh and he had Weider on his side all the time and thats why he won the 80 Olympia while in terrible shape and with no legs at all. You should have heard the crowd when he won........BOOOOOO big time. Should have been Zane or Mentzer for sure.

Mentzer quit pro bodybuilding at the age of 28 as a result of this Weider/Arnold combo crap and we never saw Mentzer each his peak! Too bad.
I loved Honest Mike.
RG

 

[Texas Ranger]

I've heard and believe Arnold experimented with HGH along with semi-high doses of Dbol(50mgs) and Primo, but we will never know.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Realgains, check your email, bro.

 

[Dizzy]

I don't think that high doses will do much if any more for the genetically challenged bro.

True the guys I mentioned were gifted but does that mean the average guy needs to take a gram of juice a week...maybe a little more but we have to be realistic I think.

RG

lol....I didn't mean that the genetically challenged guys should do larger doses. I said that I agreed they should eat and train properly and USUALLY find that they will get better gains.

My point was that some people (of all body types) need higher doses than others. Some don't respond well to low dose cycles. And yes that is with proper diet, training, and resting habits.

Diz

 

[Realgains]

NEWBIES check out my second post in this thread as it is here that I edited my initial post and talked about clomid, nolvadex and HCG.

RG

 

[kartoon]

mike Metzler was also on allot of speed( methamphetamines), he was even committed to an insane asylum because of it's abuse.

 

[Realgains]

mike Metzler was also on allot of speed( methamphetamines), he was even committed to an insane asylum because of it's abuse.

Never heard that bro and I was a Mentzer fanatic. He suffered from depression after he retired though.

RG

 

[Lift Chief]

never heard that either... maybe he really meant metzler?

 

[kartoon]

read it in an old iromman mag, talked about metzer(mike) seeing aliens and crazy shit like that because of meth use.

 

[rutNgut]

.

 

[MadCow1]

mike Metzler was also on allot of speed( methamphetamines), he was even committed to an insane asylum because of it's abuse.

From what I've heard this is true. Keep in mind that this also fits with the maximum intensity theory in that its use will allow on to train with unbelievable intensity. Not recommended.

 

[jfury27]

Wow this is a great post!!! Hopefully people will see and take the advice. I know some people that do not even compete and they take like a sust every other day!!! I mean people these days think that just because pros do these high ass doses means that they can too. I have been competing now for about 2 years and I dont even take half the shit that these jackasses take. I find the higher in dose I go the more I sides I see and the shittier I look. Especially with test. Well good luck people.
jfury

 

[Texas Ranger]

Check your email again, buddy. If not, check your PM.-TR

 

[Spectre]

Realgains, did they cycle at low doses or did they stay on at those doses? I have only done the first however I can see how staying on at those low doses could build some serious mass.. Do we have apples and oranges here, please clarify.

 

[RdStrcklnd]

realgains, ure a fag dude.

rNg

What is that all about? Realgains give the most informative posts on this board, you should take some time and read them.

 

[BBBodie]

My gal is a Cardiac nurse and she pointed out that 3 of the men listed are or have had Cardiac trouble....of note...Arnold's multi-bypass surgery.....

Hello????? Anyone paying attention????

Too much gear = health problems later....count on it.

Bo

 

[freshr1]

he was probably on high dose of primo and dbols for very long periods. Dunno about GH. Remember that back in the early 80's GH was way too expensive since it wasn't taken from the same source (I believe human cells from dead bodies....not sure).

Arnold was plenty rich even in those days. Hell, he was rich before he competed. He was a self made multimillionare from real-estate. And I'm sure Weider would've pitched in too.

Dbol/primo for Arnold is utter crap. No way that's all he did. Same with the other guys.

 

[gwl9dta4]

Arnold never had bypass surgery, where did this start? He did a few years back go in for a "congenitive" defect in his heart, calling for one of his valves to be replaced with a pig valve. His mother underwent the same surgery earlier in her life. So that's that.

Second all the pro's do not take insane ammounts of juice. I read a thereat on Chad's bord a few days ago with Tom Prince posting. He said flat out that most pro's cycles are about a gram of test with a few hundred milligrams thrown in, maybe an oral also. He said he never had problems gainnig muscle as long as he trained hard and ate enough. And that is what is meant by good genetics. Everyone is so disselusioned by their lack of progress that they do what average poeple do and look on larger bodybuilders and think, "man he must be on an insane ammount" of juice. This follows the layman's logic of saying "if i took steroids i would look like that too". Anyone see the correlation?

 

[mikelong23]

Hey I think it is a good post anyways.

But the question that has not been answered yet is how long were these guys on for, b/c that too does play a big role. 2-3 months or 2-3 years at a time.

 

[Realgains]

Hey I think it is a good post anyways.

But the question that has not been answered yet is how long were these guys on for, b/c that too does play a big role. 2-3 months or 2-3 years at a time.

From what I researched so far they did stay on for long cycles but not all year long for the most part....some did I am sure but most didn't it seems.

I attended a Mike Mentzer seminar was back in 1980 and he confirmed his pre Olympia dose of Deca at 400 per week and 20-30 of d-bol per day.........the guy prided himself on being honest bro's...he hated the bullshit that was going on in pro bodybuilding at that time....he never endorsed any products saying that they made him big .

He made it clear in the seminar that he thought Arnold was a bullshitter and an "blow hard" with a huge inflated ego because people were always asking him about the fude he and Arnold had going. . ...which was true back then for sure. He was pissed with all the pro's then saying that they didn't use roids.... and he told it like it was and always admitted to his roid use.

He ALWAYS said he success was due to a combo of genetics#1 and then proper high intensity training with plenty of rest and good food and then steroids.

If Mentzer said he used 400 of deca and 20-30 of d-bol then that was the truth bro's! Its a damn shame that some on this board cannot accept this....they sure the heck don't know much about Honest Iron Mike.


RG

 

[MR. BMJ]

Nice post Realgains. However, I can't believe that you actually believe those doses that have been touted for years. They are bullshit. The pros back then used a lot more than people think, and a lot more than what they will ever admit to. My old Health Science teacher used to train with Arnold, and he had many pictures taken with him, and one he gave to me of the two of them. The bad part is, he passed away a few years back. From what I remember, D-bol, deca, Enanthate, and Primo were SLAMMED like candy. I'll try and post the picture of the two of them if I can find it.

I do agree that a lot of guys take too much gear as a dependant factor. Instead of busting their asses, they are lazy and try to have the drugs make up for it. I agree that a lot of us, including myself, could probably tame it down a notch or two, because lets face it, just about all of us on here will NEVER be a pro. I agree with the longer cycles now with a moderate dose, instead of a quick 30 pound gain like mentioned. Also, I do not really care for being bloated all the time. Now, if you are over 250 pounds, or at a national competitor, I think you may need to take those doses.

I can't believe you didn't mention a prop/fina or fina/winny cycle man.......That is the best combo I have ever experienced...bar none.

Karma for you!

BMJ

 

[Realgains]

Test/tren is indeed good but very androgenic and not withot plenty of androgenic sides.

But the Newbie certainly can try 200 of test/week with 25-50 of tren per day.

RG

 

[go_hard_80]

190lbs her, 6ft, 11%bf 3yrs training, guessing 30lbs under my natural genetic potential

would a cycle like this

wks 1-8 250mgs of eq
wks 5-11 fina 37.5mg ed
wks 1-4 300mg prop wk


looking for 10lbs. sound like a solid cycle?

 

[2new4juice]

i'm cycling

my first cycle is this:

1cc test every 2 weeks in week 3 adding 5mg dbol ed.
my cycle will last about 15 weeks.

 

[da big thinker]

great post RG...excellent info and i agree...as i get older and further dial in on my training and diet,i've realised that selective and structured low dosing is the way to go...i'm growing quite nicely actually...these days all you hear about is,high amounts of test and dbol,tren for 26 weeks...lol...,and get the same complaints over and over again...my cycle ain't working kind of thing...my arms aren't growing on 1000mg of test...wtf?...lol...if the training and diet are not there,then no juice will help...in addition,set some goals...they help w/ direction and focus...you won't grow PROPERLY just because you're "on"...lol

 

[Realgains]

190lbs her, 6ft, 11%bf 3yrs training, guessing 30lbs under my natural genetic potential

would a cycle like this

wks 1-8 250mgs of eq
wks 5-11 fina 37.5mg ed
wks 1-4 300mg prop wk


looking for 10lbs. sound like a solid cycle?

Yes thats a pretty good cycle but you could drop the eq and save it for another cycle and make very similar gains. Run the prop all the way through.
But all in all your cycle is well thought out and a good one.

RG

 

[jamotech]

I love to see posts like this realgains, your suggestions for newbies are dead on. My first cycle was deca 200mg for 8 weeks, second was a dbol pyramid 10mg,15mg,20mg,15mg,10mg. My body reacted great to both and at that point was very pleased with the results. My third cycle was sust 400 mg 8 weeks, 200mg deca 8 weeks, 20 mg dbol, I went from 180 to 210. Theese dosages are lower that what a lot of people reccommend for FIRST cycles. I just wanted to post this to let everyone know that is wondering low doses do work, I think realgain has done a good thing posting this and all newbies shouldnt take his post as pussy advice but some of the best advice they can get as a newbie.

 

[Realgains]

Re: i'm cycling

my first cycle is this:

1cc test every 2 weeks in week 3 adding 5mg dbol ed.
my cycle will last about 15 weeks.

You should inject the test at least once a week or your blood hormone levels will drop too much even if you are using sust.
Do the d-bol in divided doses.

Try this ...test cyp or enanthate at 200 per week for 10 weeks. 10 weeks is plenty.
Add d-bol fot the first 4-6 weeks at 10mg per day in 4 divided doses. You could use just 5 of d-bol in two doses per day total...2.5 in the am and 2.5 before bed. Just split the 5mg tabs in half...they don't have to be exact.


Do HCG and clomid as I outlined in my second post on this thread.
The HCG is not mandatory but will help recovery of natural test and I think you will keep more if you use it.

RG

 

[Taomaster]

Arnold's nowhere near his size 25 years ago but he still looks pretty damned good for 50+

yehh, not to mention three or four heart bypass surgeries....certainly steroids had nothing to do with that.

 

[macDbol]

real gains for mod!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ppl on this board recommend WAY too much gear for a newbie user,,,,fuck ive had friends (me included)who gained 10-15 pounds on 300mg deca or 400mg eq alone on a first cycle


also as a side note u dont see Test being mentioned in any of those old school stacks, other than dbol there are no other androgenics listed (anadrol,various tests, etc)

 

[2new4juice]

i actually wrote that out wrong, i take 1cc test every nine days. i'm trying to take very low doses so that i don't blow up too quickly as my boss at work will notice, then a drug test will not be too far behind. i would like to take arimidex or liquidex or just some form of anti-e but since i'm new to the AAS world everything is quite hard to find.

 

[muscleup]

Great read RG...

 

[Texas Ranger]

Do you think a newbie in the 220-240lb range can gain a realistic amount of LBM(10-15lbs) on a First Cycle using one of these cycles? 1.)Test Enanthate@250mgs a week for 10weeks and Dbol@25mgs a day for the first 5 weeks 2.)Test Enanthate@250mgs and Deca@200mgs both for 10 weeks.

 

[Realgains]

Do you think a newbie in the 220-240lb range can gain a realistic amount of LBM(10-15lbs) on a First Cycle using one of these cycles? 1.)Test Enanthate@250mgs a week for 10weeks and Dbol@25mgs a day for the first 5 weeks 2.)Test Enanthate@250mgs and Deca@200mgs both for 10 weeks.

Yes... as this is way more androgen and anabolic support than your natural test levels.

You will gain well "IF" you train correctly with intensity, lowish volume utilizing mainly basic compound movements, and plenty of rest, sleep, and days out of the gym. Nutrition is very important as well.

Then you will be a health minded lifter using low doses of steroids as a minor pillar of your training and not as the foundation itself.... like the unwise.

If someone new to steroids cannot gain well on 25 of d-bol/day alone then that person is a terrible bodybuilder without a clue.

You can do plenty with those doses bro and keep sides to a minimum.

Good luck to you!

RG

 

[hatari]

RG,

Very good post.

As an old timer, I can tell you 15-20mg of dbol alone can put the beef on you. two six week cycleslike that would have have newbie looking like the king of the beach! 20-25 years ago, 15mg/day for 6weeks is what we used for college football. It wasn't until the mid 80's that college football players started injecting wholesale. Maybe I should do a "Gear for Graybeards" thread. I'm of a like mind that minimum dosages are certainly better. A newbie who has worked to his natural limit, usually within two years of good training (this is for an adult, not a 15 ear old who has worked out for two years) can put on 10 lbs a cycle and keep it. That's 45lbs on your beanch too!

 

[hatari]

Another reason to keep the doses low. Lower doses+less side effects.


orville burke:bad news (post #1)
this is a copy and paste from another board:

There is sad news to report from NYC, tonight, regarding the health of IFBB pro Orville Burke.

As was previously reported here, Orville injured his elbow, during a photo shoot, following the Olympia.

He was scheduled to have surgery to repair the injury, this week. It would be necessary for Orville to receive a general anesthetic for the surgical procedure.

As is the case for so many BBers with extreme muscularity, Orville has suffered from high blood pressure and an enlarged heart, for some time, and has been under the care of a cardiologist. He also has asthma, which limited his ability to do cardio. He did not tell the orthopedic surgeons who were to do the elbow surgery. But, during the pre-surgery workup, all this was discovered. Orville was declared a non-candidate for a general anesthetic, and the operation was cancelled.

Orville went to his cardiologist, who, for reasons unknown to me, gave Orville a written release to undergo the general anesthetic and elbow surgery. So, Orville was cleared, and the surgery took place.

During the surgery, Orville's heart failed, and, following attempts to restart his heart, he lapsed into coma.

Tonight, Orville remains alive, but unconscious. It is unknown whether he may be restored to consciousness, or the possible extent of brain damage. Surely, his career, as a pro BBer, must be at an end.

Those of us who know or met Orville Burke, know he is a kind and gentle soul, and a wonderful ambassador for the sport.

 

[Wulfgang]

Hello all,

Just wanted to thank you for a very solid and informative post - it's posts like these that keep me coming back.

As a newbie here I'll do my best to avoid the 'what's the best newbie stack' type questions since they have been answered here many times already.

I would like hear from others though who have had acne problems from cycling T200. I cycled for (10) weeks and noticed occasional acne and so, sought out Accutane but Derm prescribed Levaquin instead. It seemed to work reasonably well but only had (2) week script. Since then, and off-cycle it's horrendous!

It's been almost (8) weeks since cycle and it's like no acne I've ever had - chest (all over) shoulders and upper back. I have another scrip for Levaquin - sure as hell hope it cures it.

Any one else have the problem this severely?

Any info will be most appreciated,

-Wulfgang

 

[2Thick]

Finally, the moderates are gaining ground....it only took a few years...LOL

 

[Realgains]

Hello all,

Just wanted to thank you for a very solid and informative post - it's posts like these that keep me coming back.

As a newbie here I'll do my best to avoid the 'what's the best newbie stack' type questions since they have been answered here many times already.

I would like hear from others though who have had acne problems from cycling T200. I cycled for (10) weeks and noticed occasional acne and so, sought out Accutane but Derm prescribed Levaquin instead. It seemed to work reasonably well but only had (2) week script. Since then, and off-cycle it's horrendous!

It's been almost (8) weeks since cycle and it's like no acne I've ever had - chest (all over) shoulders and upper back. I have another scrip for Levaquin - sure as hell hope it cures it.

Any one else have the problem this severely?

Any info will be most appreciated,

-Wulfgang

TEST IS BAD FOR ACNE and probably the worst although some say tren is just as bad.
As far as acne is concerned the milder androgens like eq, nandrolone and primo,& winstrol fair better here.

A moderate deca/winstrol cycle is a great one for lean body mass gains and strength! Little to no bloat,& very minimal acne normally. This is a proven stack that is very synergistic.
400 of deca/week for 10 weeks and 50 of winny per day for 4-6 weeks will do WONDERS and is TONS of gear for all but the largest top competitors.

NOTE: limit all 17aa roids, including injectable winstrol to 4-6 weeks just to be safe with the old liver

And as I have said a MILLION times before moderate dose deca will not cause gyno in 99.9% of men and the winstrol counters much of the progestin affect of deca anyway.

You could even do deca only at 400/week with very nice results. It has been done tons of times bro's with no deca dick, no acne, no bloat or gyno....just solid steady lean mass gains. In fact Fonz and Decaman have done much higher doses with no problems at all in the sides department. If you are afraid of loss of libido then just have a little proviron or test on hand. 50 of proviron per day of 100 of test per wek will cure the libido issue if it indeed does need fixing which I doubt with moderate doses of deca.

I recommend hcg at 500iu's per day during the last two weeks of most cycles over 8 weeks and with deca at any cycle length as it is quite suppressive of HPTA. Be sure to run clomid at 300mg on day one in divided doses 3 weeks after the last shot and then 50mg per day for AT LEAST 4 weeks.


RG

 

[Realgains]

Here is a quote from Dr. Scuggs. He treats steroid users and knows his stuff. He is Ulters doc.

" The typical dose would be 100-200 mg of testosterone and the same dose of nandrolone deconate injected once every 4 days. It is more than adequate for athletes and all but the MOST SERIOUS HARDCORE BODYBUILDERS" (in other words the highly competitive) Also note the words "more than adequate"
The above dose is 400-800mg of gear every 8 days.


Check out the artcile " Steroids benefits and pitfalls "

www.newhopemed.com

RG

 

[sergio]

Could it be that the reason some do not react to low doses is because they are not training, eating and sleeping well. There are a shit load of people out there that don't train well and are over trained.
If you can't make good gains initailly off of 10-20 of d-bol then you are doing something very wrong!



RG

You're generalizing too much, I personally don't react to d-bol. And yes,it was real, and my training,diet,and rest was solid.
The BBing greats you're comparing us to is unfair...they're genetic freaks,unlike the 95% of us. But I do agree,most of us take more gear than we need...

 

[sergio]

I think d-bol is a great hormone for mass and I also think that 600 of primo and 50 of d-bol per day can get one pretty darn big if you train really hard , eat well and rest well.......but Arnold wasn't know for his brutal workouts.........he did have great genetics though..... damn it all.

Oh and he had Weider on his side all the time and thats why he won the 80 Olympia while in terrible shape and with no legs at all. You should have heard the crowd when he won........BOOOOOO big time. Should have been Zane or Mentzer for sure.

Mentzer quit pro bodybuilding at the age of 28 as a result of this Weider/Arnold combo crap and we never saw Mentzer each his peak! Too bad.
I loved Honest Mike.
RG

Mike Mentzer is definitely the real deal,he's my mentor. I use his training/diet methods,and it's really worked for me. I think his 'Heavy Duty'book should be required reading for everyone

 

[Realgains]

You're generalizing too much, I personally don't react to d-bol. And yes,it was real, and my training,diet,and rest was solid.
The BBing greats you're comparing us to is unfair...they're genetic freaks,unlike the 95% of us. But I do agree,most of us take more gear than we need...

I do not generalize too much!
You should be able to gain very well WITHOUT steroids at all.....up to your natural genetic max weight IF you know how to train correctly as a natural. That means you should be able to get to a fairly lean 190 pounds at the average height of 5'9 or 10" without steroids at all.
Problem is most men don't have a bloody clue how to train naturally. If you train correctly and eat and rest properly AND THEN add 20 of d-bol you will gain very nicely and blow past your natural max weight.
20 of d-bol is plenty for a recreational lifter unless you have some kind of assimilation problem with the orals in which case you should avoid them and stick to moderate dose injectables. I have never seen that BTW.


RG

 

[sergio]

I do not generalize too much!
You should be able to gain very well WITHOUT steroids at all.....up to your natural genetic max weight IF you know how to train correctly as a natural. That means you should be able to get to a fairly lean 190 pounds at the average height of 5'9 or 10" without steroids at all.
Problem is most men don't have a bloody clue how to train naturally. If you train correctly and eat and rest properly AND THEN add 20 of d-bol you will gain very nicely and blow past your natural max weight.
20 of d-bol is plenty for a recreational lifter unless you have some kind of assimilation problem with the orals in which case you should avoid them and stick to moderate dose injectables. I have never seen that BTW.


RG

Yea, 30mgs/week oral dbol did nothing for me. Do you think I might see results with an injectible? Like reforvit?

 

[gwl9dta4]

I do not generalize too much!
You should be able to gain very well WITHOUT steroids at all.....up to your natural genetic max weight IF you know how to train correctly as a natural. That means you should be able to get to a fairly lean 190 pounds at the average height of 5'9 or 10" without steroids at all.
Problem is most men don't have a bloody clue how to train naturally. If you train correctly and eat and rest properly AND THEN add 20 of d-bol you will gain very nicely and blow past your natural max weight.
20 of d-bol is plenty for a recreational lifter unless you have some kind of assimilation problem with the orals in which case you should avoid them and stick to moderate dose injectables. I have never seen that BTW.


RG

I will post on your thread again to help support the point you are making. I have done cycles of 100mp primo per week and gained decently. My first cycle was 50mg winny 2x per week. Gained 10 lbs. those cycles got me to 220lbs at 6'2. And i do not have great genetics. At 15 years old i could not do one friggin push up, not one and forget about pullups. What RG is saying makes perfect sence.

If your training and diet is on track you WILL make gains naturally. No need for anabolics. When you add the anabolics in, then you will literally grow like a beast from small doses. Case and point, i made my best gains and got to 280 lbs on only 500mg of sust, and that was thanks to a good diet and training, not the test. Low doses teach you to NOT rely on a pill for you muscles, but your diet and training.

And to all the guys that say training and diet were spot on and low doses did not work, you're full of shit. You don't know what you are talking about, seek a professional trainers help because you are lost and don't know it.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Sergio, this is not a flame or is meant in ANY disresepct to you at all, but 30mgs of Dbol seems like a pretty decent dose for a first timer. It seems like you should have gained something from it. Maybe, you should try a low dose of Test@250mgs a week.

 

[Realgains]

I will post on your thread again to help support the point you are making. I have done cycles of 100mp primo per week and gained decently. My first cycle was 50mg winny 2x per week. Gained 10 lbs. those cycles got me to 220lbs at 6'2. And i do not have great genetics. At 15 years old i could not do one friggin push up, not one and forget about pullups. What RG is saying makes perfect sence.

If your training and diet is on track you WILL make gains naturally. No need for anabolics. When you add the anabolics in, then you will literally grow like a beast from small doses. Case and point, i made my best gains and got to 280 lbs on only 500mg of sust, and that was thanks to a good diet and training, not the test. Low doses teach you to NOT rely on a pill for you muscles, but your diet and training.

And to all the guys that say training and diet were spot on and low doses did not work, you're full of shit. You don't know what you are talking about, seek a professional trainers help because you are lost and don't know it.

YES!!!

And this is an example of how to reach your natural max weight without juice...DO THIS.......***DON"T TRAIN LIKE THE PRO's IN THE MAGS AT ALL!!! In fact don't even look at the routines in those mags. These guys are genetic freaks that don't go to school or have other jobs. They are not good role models in regard to training for the most part. Dorian Yates is an exception and there are afew others, although the average guy cannot train as intensly as him all the time and expect to grow.

Train on the basic compound movements if not exclusively then almost so. Squat hard and deep and deadlilf in some form. Train with a lowish volume and train damn hard. I could make some of you guys throw up with only three sest of 12 in the squat..and you want to do 20 sets of quads eh ..he he he . High volume = lowish intensity and over training for 99% of bro's.
The last rep in each working set should be the very last rep that you could possibly do in good form. Forced reps are not needed as a natural but can be used prudently.
Almost nobody trains this hard on the squat and deadlift BTW.

Always try to be adding tiny amounts of weight to the bars. Once the going gets tough even 1 pound per week on the bench is good progress...keep that up for 9 months and you will be much bigger in the chest shoulders and tri's. Get some tiny plates at www.fractionalplates.com

You must alllow for recuperation so plenty of time out of the gym per week is needed. I got great results from training on a three way split in which I trained MON- WED and FRI hitting each mucsle group directly once per week. On steroids I increased my volume very slightly and trained every other day and that hitting each mucsle group once every 6 days. This is sometimes too much for the squat and deadlift especially as you get strong even on steroids.
Don't try to train all out all the time. Take a week off every few months and start another training cycle with about 90% of your previous bests for reps and work past this mark slowlly over several weeks.

You must not try to be an aerobic machine and expect to gain well. Limit cardio to three days per week for 30 minutes each while trying to gain muscle mass.

You must eat all the time but only of quality food which is low in saturated fat and high in essential fatty acids. Eat every three to four hours in small amounts. Try to get plenty of carbs. Try to get a gram of protein per pound of body weight and up to twice that much when on steroids. You may need to use a supplemental protein drink. Whey isolate is best but even a good milk/egg protein is great.

You must sleep at least 8 hours per day every day!

Now you will grow!

Then if you think it is time and you want to try roids then try modest amounts of gear like 20 of d-bol per day in four divided doses for 6 weeks or low dose injectables which are less stessful on the liver.
Take tylers detox pills and or ala while on the orals.

You don't need to stack steroids for good results although some combo's are synergenic.

Best book on bodybuilding is "A Warriors Story" by Dorian Yates

Best book on roids is "Anabolics 2002" by William Llewellyn

RG

 

[sergio]

Sergio, this is not a flame or is meant in ANY disresepct to you at all, but 30mgs of Dbol seems like a pretty decent dose for a first timer. It seems like you should have gained something from it. Maybe, you should try a low dose of Test@250mgs a week.

Need to clarify..I used dbol at the beginning of a cycle(my 2nd), with no gains/strength. I took it along with deca/sus. I don't seem to respond to oral dbol,was just wondering if the injectible reforvit would be any different...

 

[Focker]

I will be startng a test/dbol cycle in febuary and I have more than enough dbol for my cycle and have been contemplating on whether or not to do a short (4 weeks or so) dbol only cycle at 10-20 mg per day. If I was to do this would I need arimidex? And what about clomid? I have both of these for my planned cycle in feb but it seems kinda riduculous to use them for such a small dbol only cycle. What are any of ya'lls thoughts on this matter. Should I just wait until feb or is the short dbol only cycle worth doing??? This thread seems quite encouraging but what are the anti-e rules or advice for such small dosage cycles... Thanks.

 

[Mandinka2]

Reagains

Hi Realgains ,
I've posted on one of your threads before and will be starting the short cycle you recomended ,however just to clarify , I believe that Arnold was famous for gulping down 9 dianabol (45mgs!) in a single dose with milk , so I reckon that means he took about 50 (250mgs) of dbol a day which is a lot , even by some of the more excessive board members standards. Please confirm if Mentzer used 20 dbol (100 mgs) of dbol a day or just 20mgs/day. I also train like him and grow pretty well although I'm pretty locked out at 225/230lbs and 6'.

 

[Realgains]

I will be startng a test/dbol cycle in febuary and I have more than enough dbol for my cycle and have been contemplating on whether or not to do a short (4 weeks or so) dbol only cycle at 10-20 mg per day. If I was to do this would I need arimidex? And what about clomid? I have both of these for my planned cycle in feb but it seems kinda riduculous to use them for such a small dbol only cycle. What are any of ya'lls thoughts on this matter. Should I just wait until feb or is the short dbol only cycle worth doing??? This thread seems quite encouraging but what are the anti-e rules or advice for such small dosage cycles... Thanks.

wait until February and get your training in line with my last post.

Don't use estrogen inhibitors unless you absolutely need to as they really mess with your lipid profile. Steroids plus an estrogen inhibitor = avery shitty lipid profile with a terrible hdl to total cholesterol profile.

Have clomid or nolva on hand and if the nipples get sore in the slightest then jump on 20 of nolva per day or 50 of clomid per day....they are almost the exact same drug and both work as estrogen blockers.

Clomid ALWAYS a 300mg on day one in divided doses two weeks after the last cyp or eneathte dose and three weeks after sust. Then take 50 per day for at least 4 weeks.

If you did a deca only cycle at 400 with test on hand(100per week) just in case your libido suffers(which I doubt) the you wouldn't need a thing to combat acne, bloat, hair loss gyno etc. Or you could start the cycle with d-bol for 4-6 weeks along with the deca and run the deca for 10 weeks.

Test/d-bol is a powerful stack and very androgenic but if you keep the dose sane then you shouldn't have a problem.

RG

 

[Realgains]

Re: Reagains

Hi Realgains ,
I've posted on one of your threads before and will be starting the short cycle you recomended ,however just to clarify , I believe that Arnold was famous for gulping down 9 dianabol (45mgs!) in a single dose with milk , so I reckon that means he took about 50 (250mgs) of dbol a day which is a lot , even by some of the more excessive board members standards. Please confirm if Mentzer used 20 dbol (100 mgs) of dbol a day or just 20mgs/day. I also train like him and grow pretty well although I'm pretty locked out at 225/230lbs and 6'.

If Arnold gulped down 45 at a time then he would have done that several times per day and would have taken 200-250 per day like you said!!!........ He would now likely be either dead(like old pro Dave Johns who used a lot of 17 aa roids) or suffer from serious liver problems.
Arnold would have a good lauhg at that one.

Arnold did come out a few years ago and say that todays pro's take FAR FAR MORE than anyone did in his day and that he thought this Mass at any cost ideation was NUTS. He also said that the pro's today don't look good for the most part as they are unbalanced and too huge! Can you imagine Arnold of all people saying that the pro's are too huge!!

Mentzer said he used 20-30 of d-bol PER DAY in divided doses along with 400 of Deca prior to the 80 Olympia.
Thats a classic stack and a very good one too.
Mentzer "told everything like it was" and was discusted with the other pro's like Arnold that hid their steroid use.
Anyone who knows Mentzer knew that he would have never bullshitted about his steroid use. In fact Mentzer was the first pro of that day to come out and fully and freely admit that he used roids.



RG

 

[Mandinka2]

Realgains

If Arnold gulped down 45 at a time then he would have done that several times per day and would have taken 200-250 per day like you said!!!........ He would now likely be either dead(like old pro Dave Johns who used a lot of 17 aa roids) or suffer from serious liver problems.

I'm afraid that was what was published in the unauthorised bio a few years back , I'd say it's fairly accurate from the level of research done and the way he used to be nonchalant about his health , getting drunk every year for a few weeks at a time at the Munich Oktoberfest. So Mike (Mentzer) took only 20-30mgs , right? That just shows what a super drug dbol is. I'm gonna do tren and IP winny for the first two weeker , then dbol and tren after that (6 weeks between cycles). Whaddaya think?

 

[Realgains]

Re: Realgains

I'm afraid that was what was published in the unauthorised bio a few years back , I'd say it's fairly accurate from the level of research done and the way he used to be nonchalant about his health , getting drunk every year for a few weeks at a time at the Munich Oktoberfest. So Mike (Mentzer) took only 20-30mgs , right? That just shows what a super drug dbol is. I'm gonna do tren and IP winny for the first two weeker , then dbol and tren after that (6 weeks between cycles). Whaddaya think?

That would be fine but the second one will results in a few more pounds over the first combo. Remember though the very short cycles require fairly high doses as one is trying to fully saturate AR in such a short time period.
Expect very few sides though. You will probably keep 5-7 pounds on each cycle and that will be pure muscle.
Sure beats training naturally where it takes all year to gain 5-10 pounds once you have been training for a while.
Those that have been training very hard for years are lucky to gain 3 pounds of pure muscle per year so the two weeker will seem like magic to them.

RG

 

[Qrios]

Realgains, (or anyone else with an opinion)
What do you think of the argument that "if you shut down your own test production you should make it worth it"?

 

[Realgains]

Realgains, (or anyone else with an opinion)
What do you think of the argument that "if you shut down your own test production you should make it worth it"?

Yes that is a valid point....... and all the cycles I gave as examples will shut you down COMPLETELY except perhpas low dose Primo at 200 per week and the small dose of d-bol at 10mg (although not 20)......although I am certain it to will have some affect over time.

The hypothalamus will sence ANY increase in androgen level as a reason to shut down test production. If it sences 25% above normal then it will shut down test production by 25%, if it sences 50% above normal then down goes 50%. The doses I gave will result in over 100% more androgen so the testes will in time(fairly rapidly) shut down .
It doesn't take a 500-1000mg per week to shut down HPTA bro's...thats a myth.

HPTA shut down is not normally a problem as HPTA recovery will usually happen post cycle unless one is on for a long long time.
Steroid users should be much more concerned about months of a shitty lipid profile with terrible hdl to total cholesterol ratios' and also liver stress from 17aa orals and high dose injectables.

Bro one shot of deca alone at 200mg will almost completely shut you down.
There is this false notion that one can take steroids and not shut down HPTA. Well let me set that straight once and for all.....only VERY LOW doses of very mild androgens like primo and anavar will have little affect on HPTA......but then you won't gain much since the level of androgen is no more than with your own test production, although it may be a little more anabolic and result is some gain over and above what your natural test can do.

RG

 

[Realgains]

BRO'S WITH LITTLE EXPERIENCE

All I am trying to get across is this...

You don't even need steroids to get pretty big IF you know how to train properly, eat well and rest a lot(slepp ++)
Please do not copy routines in the mags.

Get your bodybuilding lifestyle in line with what I said several posts ago and try to at least get close to your natural maximum weight without steroids, that is 190 lean pounds for an average guy of 5'9 or 10". Add 7-10 pounds for each inch above 5'-10".

Then if you take just small doses of steroids you would be surprised at the gains you will make and you will push past your natural limit quickly.

Problem is so few know how to train for gains without steroids or with low doses of gear. You can't be training 6 days per week with 10-20+ working sets per bodypart and expect to gain unless you are taking a lot of gear and are genetically gifted.

Once you are above your natural max weight then yes go ahead and increase the doses a little but keep it sane. When you are a top competitor and are 40 pounds above your natural max then by all means use high doses.

But why subject yourself to the health risks associated with high doses if you are not in competition at a decent level.

www.newhopemed.com and read Steroids benefits and pitfals.

RG

 

[SuKY_GeNeTiCs]

great post thanks RG!

SuKY

 

[Burgboy]

BRO'S WITH LITTLE EXPERIENCE

All I am trying to get across is this...

You don't even need steroids to get pretty big IF you know how to train properly, eat well and rest a lot(slepp ++)
Please do not copy routines in the mags.

Get your bodybuilding lifestyle in line with what I said several posts ago and try to at least get close to your natural maximum weight without steroids, that is 190 lean pounds for an average guy of 5'9 or 10". Add 7-10 pounds for each inch above 5'-10".

Then if you take just small doses of steroids you would be surprised at the gains you will make and you will push past your natural limit quickly.

Problem is so few know how to train for gains without steroids or with low doses of gear. You can't be training 6 days per week with 10-20+ working sets per bodypart and expect to gain unless you are taking a lot of gear and are genetically gifted.

Once you are above your natural max weight then yes go ahead and increase the doses a little but keep it sane. When you are a top competitor and are 40 pounds above your natural max then by all means use high doses.

But why subject yourself to the health risks associated with high doses if you are not in competition at a decent level.

www.newhopemed.com and read Steroids benefits and pitfals.

RG

Very good advice.......We need more of this insight......I hate to see guys using a gram of test a week on a second cycle!

 

[Arkan]

Don't use estrogen inhibitors unless you absolutely need to as they really mess with your lipid profile. Steroids plus an estrogen inhibitor = avery shitty lipid profile with a terrible hdl to total cholesterol profile.

Are you talking about arimidex?

 

[NFG123]

not everyone reacts the same to smaller doses, those guys are probably exceptions and reacted very well. In my first cycle, i needed 100mg of winny/day and almost 100mg/fina to see results, lower doses would've given me crap. I did everything right, didnt feel a pump till i upped to those doses... but i did gain 25lbs on a cutting cycle

I agree with this. I think 500 mg test is a good base to stack from for even a beginner. 500 mg enanthate for 8-10 weeks will do wonders for a newbie and even for a still "novice" user. I did a bit too much gear last cycle and ended up with a hellacious cholesterol of 270, ldl 232 and hdl 11 using a diet quadsweep gave me. His diet was great, but that was too much gear ... Im taking lipitor now and changed my diet again to lower this (as well as got off gear!!)

NFG

 

[OMEGA]

great post

 

[Mandinka2]

Day number 1

Here we go ladies , day 1 of two weeker , I consider myself an ideal candidate 228lbs , pretty low body fat , 6' tall , nothing used for a whole year.
75mgs Fina eod and IP Winny 50mgs ed for next two weeks.
5 days 5mg dbol am after that and baby am I gonna tear strips in the gym! Not sure if I should use clomid after.
4 days a week training (everything twice a week - compares with my normal natural one day on , two days off - upper / lower body done in alternating fashion)

Realgains & Nelson Montana , hope you guys are watching , this is for you guys.

 

[Realgains]

Re: Day number 1

Here we go ladies , day 1 of two weeker , I consider myself an ideal candidate 228lbs , pretty low body fat , 6' tall , nothing used for a whole year.
75mgs Fina eod and IP Winny 50mgs ed for next two weeks.
5 days 5mg dbol am after that and baby am I gonna tear strips in the gym! Not sure if I should use clomid after.
4 days a week training (everything twice a week - compares with my normal natural one day on , two days off - upper / lower body done in alternating fashion)

Realgains & Nelson Montana , hope you guys are watching , this is for you guys.

That would be fine bro. The training frequency of every other day while on a two way split will work well for the two weeks but be sure to switch to the lower frequency for the off time training naturally.

Nelson an I differ a little in regard to short cycles. I believe that you need to use pretty large doses of gear and front load all injectables . I am pretty sure that Nelson is more moderate in dose and does not front load the fast acting injectables. He also like three week cycles which is just fine.

I just think that you have to fully saturate AR right away and I believe that to take Front loads and higher doses. These doses are not huge but they certainly are much more than I would recommend for a 10 weeker. You will not experience sides in the 14 days even witht he higher dose as time "on" is a big factor in regard to sides.

You should take the winstrol orally during the second week because taken IM it takes a week to clear. Take 75 per day in divided doses. About 50% more is needed orally for the same affect.
Also I would include 100 of test per day through day 11 with a 300 front load on day one OR 50 of d-bol per day in divided doses through day 14.

It would be plenty with just the tren and d-bol or test and d-bol. I don't think winstrol is the very best choice in a short cycle unless you want to avoid all water retention. It does stack nicely in a synergistic way with tren though.

Don't forget to eat like a starving man.

Good luck and keep us posted

RG

 

[Ulter]

I have stayed out of this because it brings back memories of posts made by 2Thick a couple years ago. Are you sure you two aren't the same guy?
If you want to grow slowly over several years like the old time body builders then use low doses. If you want to grow quickly during an 8 weeks cycle then use the appropriate doses. Which for the most part are in the 1000mg/wk range.

 

[Mandinka2]

RealGains

That would be fine bro. The training frequency of every other day while on a two way split will work well for the two weeks but be sure to switch to the lower frequency for the off time training naturally.

Nelson an I differ a little in regard to short cycles. I believe that you need to use pretty large doses of gear and front load all injectables . I am pretty sure that Nelson is more moderate in dose and does not front load the fast acting injectables. He also like three week cycles which is just fine.

I just think that you have to fully saturate AR right away and I believe that to take Front loads and higher doses. These doses are not huge but they certainly are much more than I would recommend for a 10 weeker. You will not experience sides in the 14 days even witht he higher dose as time "on" is a big factor in regard to sides.

You should take the winstrol orally during the second week because taken IM it takes a week to clear. Take 75 per day in divided doses. About 50% more is needed orally for the same affect.
Also I would include 100 of test per day through day 11 with a 300 front load on day one OR 50 of d-bol per day in divided doses through day 14.

It would be plenty with just the tren and d-bol or test and d-bol. I don't think winstrol is the very best choice in a short cycle unless you want to avoid all water retention. It does stack nicely in a synergistic way with tren though.

Don't forget to eat like a starving man.

Good luck and keep us posted

Ok , RG , I'll cut back on the training to eod , acutally i BUTCHERED my legs last night believing that I could recover from just about anything , 4 sets of 15 - heavy squats. Total session 45mins. Can hardly walk today. I'll also push up the Winny to 100mg/day , I only have the oral IP version. Thanks so much for your support ,it really feels like I have a professional watching over me at the moment. I have no test at the moment and prefer to exclude it right now although I do see it'S use (I assume you refer to propionate).On the food issue , I guess that I need to invest in larger waisted trousers this weekend. Ok , will take report back after weekend with stats. Thanks again.

Ulter , I'm a 27yr. old Irish guy living in Munich, this Winter I'll buy a digital camera and post pics (or better give them to someone else here to post) but I assure you I'm not Realgains.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Mandinka, I think he was refering to 2Thick and Realgains. Ulter, I remember the debates between 2Thick and E2 a while back. Remember the, "No Test For Newbies!" post by 2Thick? It was a classic!!

 

[Lift Chief]

It's good to have some well respected conservative guys on the board to try and bring people who think more is better back to reality sometimes. It's a good reminder!

 

[Realgains]

I have stayed out of this because it brings back memories of posts made by 2Thick a couple years ago. Are you sure you two aren't the same guy?
If you want to grow slowly over several years like the old time body builders then use low doses. If you want to grow quickly during an 8 weeks cycle then use the appropriate doses. Which for the most part are in the 1000mg/wk range.

Welcome to this thread Ulter. Your opinion and experience is always well respected.

In a way you are correct Ulter. Yes bigger gains will likely come off a dose in the 1 gram per week ball park BUT along with that come some pretty nasty sides, especially if you are using test for example. Acne would be the worst visible side for many.

The newbie doesn't need a gram a week to grow nicely though so why use it. Why rely so heavily on steroids...shouldn't one rely more on trianing and lifestyle?
I for one doubt the commonly held belief amoungst many vets today that highish doses are just as safe health wise as low doses. In fact I think nothing could be further from the truth..as far as HPTA shut down is concerned YES that is true but thats about it.

Most of these men (or many even boys) are not even close to their natural genetic max so they will grow well just learning how to train without using sterods and if one add a little androgen then they can gain quite quickly and avoid many sides associated with the gram a week. What the H is a 20 year old that is 20 pounds under his natural max doing with a gram of gear per week!
Have trained young men in their early 20's that have gained very quickly using only 300 of test per week simply because I taught them how to train, eat and rest and insisted that they don't even look at the routines listed in the glossy mags. One fellow KEPT 15 pounds off a 10 week cycle of EQ alone at 400 per week.

Also I am ceartain that gains made more slowly over years are much easier for the body to hang on to. The body simply cannot hang onto 30 pounds after 10 weeks, even if the gain was pure muscle, and you know it never is , especially with aromatizable gear.

I am not against test for a newbie at all but high dose test yes... the sides and bloat can be quite bad and how many of these newbies are going to take arimidex while on test...not to mention acutane. A newbie that takes a gram of test per week or test and d-bol for example is going to gain 30 pounds but after a few weeks off he will be lucky to hold onto half that and many will loose much more than that.

If one wants to venture into higher doses of androgen then they should do the king of steroids and that is tren, then at least the gain will be a slow progression in pure muscle and they will keep much of that. So newbie if you want to push the envolope then take 50-75 of tren per day along with 500 of test per week(expect lots of sides and especially acne with tren and test).....or if you want pure muscle only then stack that tren with a class two roid that doesn't aromatize like winstrol at 50 per day or anavar at at least that much.

Something to consider newbie.......you cannot use tren without getting bad bad acne unless you are one of the very few. Also if you are prone to male pattern balness then say goodbye to your hair with tren and winstrol or tren and test......and finasteride will only work to inhibit the DHT from test as both tren and winstrol do not convert to DHT.

There is always a price to pay with higher doses, and not just in dollars, so be aware of them fella's.

So in closing......if you are above your natural max then go ahead and try higher doses.....if you compete at a high level then you will need more.......but truthfully now, how many of you are even at your genetic natural max(5'9" and a lean, not ripped, 190 add 5 pounds for every inch above 5'9)

RG

RG

 

[Mandinka2]

RG

Perhaps you consider that I am a newbie but I have 15 years (13 drug free) experience in the gym. To counter the hair-loss effect of Winstrol I'm usin topical spironolactone.I have just posted my split in another thread so you can examine it and decide if it is inadequate (although at 228lbs and natural-ish , I'm pretty happy).