Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below Bigsatan13
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The add for your book looks interesting but here's a chance to sell the shit out of it. Post your picture.
Nelson Montana-I'm calling you out!
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The add for your book looks interesting but here's a chance to sell the shit out of it. Post your picture.
drug_against_war
New member
Hmmm, that would be interesting....sort of a "put your money where your mouth is" kind of thing.
Then again, I think the best football coaches might make really shitty players...
Then again, I think the best football coaches might make really shitty players...
Bigsatan13 said:
The add for your book looks interesting but here's a chance to sell the shit out of it. Post your picture.
I would have thought that everyone knew that "the guys with the brains doesn't necessarily have the body." There are lots of coaches/mentors/tutors/doctors out there that can direct, instruct and teach, but can't perform as well as some their gifted students. So, I would'nt knock an authority just because he isn't built like an Olympian.
LivinLarger
New member
I think he looks good for an obvious hard gainer, needs some time in the squat rack though J/K
sauerbrauten
New member
i Always though it was him on the Bodybuilding book .....
WannaImpress
New member
Re: Re: Nelson Montana-I'm calling you out!
Very good point indeed DrJMW!
DrJMW said:
Very good point indeed DrJMW!
LivinLarger
New member
Yes, man did he ever look like shit! Sure knew his stuff though, very cutting edge. Some of the worst genetics I have ever seen for BB.
"Those who can't, teach."
Yes I suppose that's why they pay engineering professors six figures!
And why people think of Scotty Bowman, Don Shula, etc. as geniuses!
Anyone who is good at helping someone else learn a difficult field, or unlock their potential, is definitely doing something.
What the hell does Oprah "do," anyway?
Yes I suppose that's why they pay engineering professors six figures!
And why people think of Scotty Bowman, Don Shula, etc. as geniuses!
Anyone who is good at helping someone else learn a difficult field, or unlock their potential, is definitely doing something.
What the hell does Oprah "do," anyway?
javaguru
Banned
I remeber seeing a picture of Dan Duchaine in a very old issue of Mucle Media during his aspiring bodybuilder days. He didn't have the genetics to be a pro but he had built an awesome body by gym standards. Also, remeber that he had serious medical conditions that prevented him from every being able to get back his former physique.
naturally anabolic
New member
BigBarbarian-chargeback
New member
Has anyone ever read this book. I almost purchased it and talked myself out of it.
Silent Method
New member
Funny, the add turs me off! His personal comments on the board are what perk my interest. I plan to buy the book in the future.Bigsatan13 said:
The add for your book looks interesting but here's a chance to sell the shit out of it. Post your picture.
There's an old saying:
"If you want to learn how to be a better bodybuilder, don't ask advice from the biggest guy in the gym...ask advice from the guy who has made the most progress."
In that regard I'd say I walk the walk. I was 145 pounds with 13% bf -- and not as a kid, but at the age of 37 and having trained for many years. I did a lot of things that most of you did -- the standard routines, diets, aerobics, all the supps. But I learned the truth. And that black and white picture is 100% drug free at age 40. Come back to me when you're 40 and let's see what you look like.
I never claimed to be a mass monster. I was a weenie guy with terrible genetics who transfored his body into more than I ever would have imagined, and I've done the same for hundreds, maybe thousands of others. If you're a genetic marvel, you don't need my advice. If you take a gram of gear a week, my gains won't impress you. But after 30 years of doing this I know what works best. How far you go with that information is up to your genetics.
As you can see, my genetics suck, yet at age 43 I came in 5th at the NPC Masters championships. (I was robbed, but thats a story for another time) And BTW, my "stack" for that show (the picture in the corner of the page) was 200mgs of Deca a week and 10mgs of D-bol a day for 3 weeks prior to the show.
Today at age 49, with a bum shoulder and a bad back, I'm a solid 190 at 9% bf. I eat pizza every day and do NO AEROBICS.
To those who can relate, I think you'll enjoy the book. But like I said, if gains come easily to you, you don't need it and I won't try to convince you otherwise.
"If you want to learn how to be a better bodybuilder, don't ask advice from the biggest guy in the gym...ask advice from the guy who has made the most progress."
In that regard I'd say I walk the walk. I was 145 pounds with 13% bf -- and not as a kid, but at the age of 37 and having trained for many years. I did a lot of things that most of you did -- the standard routines, diets, aerobics, all the supps. But I learned the truth. And that black and white picture is 100% drug free at age 40. Come back to me when you're 40 and let's see what you look like.
I never claimed to be a mass monster. I was a weenie guy with terrible genetics who transfored his body into more than I ever would have imagined, and I've done the same for hundreds, maybe thousands of others. If you're a genetic marvel, you don't need my advice. If you take a gram of gear a week, my gains won't impress you. But after 30 years of doing this I know what works best. How far you go with that information is up to your genetics.
As you can see, my genetics suck, yet at age 43 I came in 5th at the NPC Masters championships. (I was robbed, but thats a story for another time) And BTW, my "stack" for that show (the picture in the corner of the page) was 200mgs of Deca a week and 10mgs of D-bol a day for 3 weeks prior to the show.
Today at age 49, with a bum shoulder and a bad back, I'm a solid 190 at 9% bf. I eat pizza every day and do NO AEROBICS.
To those who can relate, I think you'll enjoy the book. But like I said, if gains come easily to you, you don't need it and I won't try to convince you otherwise.
ulter said:
Yup. He was rail thin.
I would have loved to meet him. I only exchanged e-mails
with him on a couple of things. i.e. DNP when it first came out. How to get it, make it, synthesize it etc.. etc.. LOL
He was a funny guy.
Him and animal never, ever got along.
I still remember that one time he wanted to transport the pre-cursor to DNP(Legal) across states lines, set up a weight loss clinic, synthesize the DNP from the precursor and use it....LOL
Damn, I miss the old times of free-floating thought..
Fonz
40butpumpin
New member
Nelson Montana said:
Nelson Montana said:
Doing the same things we do? And those results were because of the faulty methods and routines you were following? No. If that is the case, how come off all is who haven't been enlightened as to "the truth", or even knowing it choose to call it BS, are not in the same boat? We are all "genetic monsters"? I doubt that. At 145, 13%, you just had some serious personal issues, no method of training (especially for many years), that you slam or not, could keep someone at that laughable level. Huh, maybe I'm just a genetic freak. (and I love the cardiovascular benefits and general health I get from cardio, and I'm not so lazy as to try and find any possible explanation to avoid it). Let's poll the IFBB pro's, and NPC National competitors(genetic freaks) and see how many still do cardio, I'd be curious as to why that is?
S
Spartacus
Guest
Nelson,how do you feel about Rob Faigin's book "Natural Hormonal Enhancement"?
4everhung: NHE is a well researched book with some good info, but I disagree with some of it. Personally, I feel Faigin over-emphasizes the role of GH. He also villifies carbs more than I would. There's also suprisingly little info on nutrition and supplementation for increasing testosterone beyond the importance of fat. He brings up the importance of sunlight which is something that is rarely addressed. Rob is a young guy with good genetics and his plan is a bit too "one size fits all" for me but I'd say the book is worth having since it's another perspective and an intelligent one.
Mischief: I'll try to address the few coherent sentences I could decipher from your post.
First of all, my choice not to do cardio has nothing to do with laziness, or "personal issues." (An incredible conclusion since you don't know anything about me). I did cardio for years, 4X's a week for 20 minutes
following all my workouts except for legs. I stopped because IT DOESN'T WORK! The fact that I maintained the same bf, same pulse rate , lowered BP, plus put on more muscle proves it.
Concerning IFBB pros: What does that have to do with anything? My information isn't designed for genetic freaks on 10.000mgs of sauce a week. FYI, a lot of pros are morons who just have the genetics for muscle growth and good receptor acceptance. And BTW, more and more are getting wise to the futility of cardio.
You love the cardiovascular benefits of aerobics? So did Jim Fixx. He even wrote a book about it. He dropped dead at age 37. No offense bro, but you're so clueless, you don't even know how clueless you are.
Mischief: I'll try to address the few coherent sentences I could decipher from your post.
First of all, my choice not to do cardio has nothing to do with laziness, or "personal issues." (An incredible conclusion since you don't know anything about me). I did cardio for years, 4X's a week for 20 minutes
following all my workouts except for legs. I stopped because IT DOESN'T WORK! The fact that I maintained the same bf, same pulse rate , lowered BP, plus put on more muscle proves it.
Concerning IFBB pros: What does that have to do with anything? My information isn't designed for genetic freaks on 10.000mgs of sauce a week. FYI, a lot of pros are morons who just have the genetics for muscle growth and good receptor acceptance. And BTW, more and more are getting wise to the futility of cardio.
You love the cardiovascular benefits of aerobics? So did Jim Fixx. He even wrote a book about it. He dropped dead at age 37. No offense bro, but you're so clueless, you don't even know how clueless you are.
"You love the cardiovascular benefits of aerobics? So did Jim Fixx. He even wrote a book about it. He dropped dead at age 37."
No he died at 52. He would have died much earlier had he not used cardio to drop from 220 to 160. He died from clogged arteries however it was due to a congenital heart condition that surely would have killed him long before 52 had he not done the cardio.
No he died at 52. He would have died much earlier had he not used cardio to drop from 220 to 160. He died from clogged arteries however it was due to a congenital heart condition that surely would have killed him long before 52 had he not done the cardio.
Nelson Montana said:
Mmmm, Ok. Hey Nelson, why don't you run that theory by us again about how animals have "animal androgen receptors", and humans have, "human androgen receptors", therefore vet steroids WILL NOT WORK ON HUMANS. You're the clueless one bro. And your lame explanation you try to give now, is BS, I have access the exact statements you made, you can't even talk your way around it.
And I happen to know a few pros, they don't take as much gear as you think. Quit making excuses for yourself. Anyone who would buy a book from this guy....well, I hope you at least read it as fiction.
Oh yeah, and from someone claiming to be smart enough to call me clueless, I could have told you when I was 15 and started training that doing your cardio right after your workouts is a bonehead, counter-productive move. Ideally, cardio should be as close to 12 hours away as possible. And it's benefits are so obvious, so simple, and so documented, that even after your animal theories above, I think YOU are even more clueless than I had previously thought.
Bigsatan13
New member
OK Nelson, you showed me you practice what you preach. Thanks.
To everyone else with the "those who can't do teach" attitude that is bullshit. The greatest teachers and leaders all did so by example. Don't tell me you can build big arms in 20 minutes a week and walk around with toothpicks. He is a reflection of the product that he is marketing. That I'll respect, not the guy who claims one thing and does another.
Typo with the Jim FIxx age. He had a heart attack in his 30's. But I just double checked and some sources say he died at 47, others say 52, but the point is the same. Yes, he had a congenital condition. If aerobic activity is so great for your heart, why didn't it prolong his life? That's still young.
Mischief: I figured you'd say I was doing aerobics all wrong. I'm sure if I said I did them on off days you'd claim that was boneheaded because the basal metabolic rate wasn't raised sufficiently or something or other. The point remains, for hardgainers, they're not only an ineffective form of exercise, but they cause a host of problems as well. Everyone who follows my advice on this reports the same results -- no loss of cardiovascular ability, and more muscle growth. The only people who knock it are those who refuse to accept it.
Concerning the vet drug thing. This is so old and I've been through it a dozen times but I'll explain it once more. I am opposed to the use of vet steroids. Many contain compounds besides steroids. There is no testing for vet drug use in humans. People experience all sorts of adverse reactions from vet gear -- anxiety, flu-like symptoms, insomnia, hives, etc. Back when I wrote that article I contacted a veterinarian on the use of vet roids and he said they would not work as well in humans due to the receptor acceptance. That's wrong of course but that's what I printed. This was 6 years ago. Who wasn't wrong about some stuff back then? What were you doing in 1997?
Ironically, what few of the detractors fail to realize is that many drugs are species specific. (i.e. aspirin is poisonous to cats.) The bottom line is, I stand by the belief that vet gear is a bad idea and I still would not use it or recommend it.
You know a few pros? Wow, am I impressed!
I don't claim to be a great scientist (unlike some of the charlatans in this industry) but I have something to offer. I'm not selling anything other than the knowledge I've amassed over many years in this business that can help, and has helped a lot of people. But maybe you already know all the answers and don't need to learn anything else. But don't knock something when you don't know anything about it.
Mischief: I figured you'd say I was doing aerobics all wrong. I'm sure if I said I did them on off days you'd claim that was boneheaded because the basal metabolic rate wasn't raised sufficiently or something or other. The point remains, for hardgainers, they're not only an ineffective form of exercise, but they cause a host of problems as well. Everyone who follows my advice on this reports the same results -- no loss of cardiovascular ability, and more muscle growth. The only people who knock it are those who refuse to accept it.
Concerning the vet drug thing. This is so old and I've been through it a dozen times but I'll explain it once more. I am opposed to the use of vet steroids. Many contain compounds besides steroids. There is no testing for vet drug use in humans. People experience all sorts of adverse reactions from vet gear -- anxiety, flu-like symptoms, insomnia, hives, etc. Back when I wrote that article I contacted a veterinarian on the use of vet roids and he said they would not work as well in humans due to the receptor acceptance. That's wrong of course but that's what I printed. This was 6 years ago. Who wasn't wrong about some stuff back then? What were you doing in 1997?
Ironically, what few of the detractors fail to realize is that many drugs are species specific. (i.e. aspirin is poisonous to cats.) The bottom line is, I stand by the belief that vet gear is a bad idea and I still would not use it or recommend it.
You know a few pros? Wow, am I impressed!
I don't claim to be a great scientist (unlike some of the charlatans in this industry) but I have something to offer. I'm not selling anything other than the knowledge I've amassed over many years in this business that can help, and has helped a lot of people. But maybe you already know all the answers and don't need to learn anything else. But don't knock something when you don't know anything about it.
F
Frackal
Guest
Fair enough, though your old comments do make me wonder as well, its good to have your knowledge and opinons on the board Nelson.
drug_against_war
New member
Dexter Jackson says he does no cardio, so obviously not every pro does it, and you can still be a Mr. O competitor without it.
" why didn't it prolong his life? That's still young. "
Like I said the cardio DID prolong his life. His condition would have killed him much earlier without it.
If you have evidence that cardio does not prolong one's life you should alert the media. The entire medical community has it wrong.
Like I said the cardio DID prolong his life. His condition would have killed him much earlier without it.
If you have evidence that cardio does not prolong one's life you should alert the media. The entire medical community has it wrong.
Lift Chief
New member
ulter said:
Nelson, i think you have a lot of interesting theories... and it's always good to have different opinions on this board.
I've gotta agree with this though. It's common knowledge that doing cardio increases your cardiovascular health... how could all doctors and nutritionists have it wrong?
utter:There is no evidence that cardio will prolong life. There's no way of knowing. The medical community acknowledges EXERCISE as good for health but never claim that aerobics will lengthen life and other forms of exercise won't.
Lifts Iron: I went through a period where I did more than the standard 20 minutes -- up to 6 miles, but I got so flat I had to stop. Then I did what I thought I was supposed to do because everyone said so. Even though I no longer do aerobics, I check myself now and then and can still run a 10-12 minute mile -- not bad for 49 and the fact that even when I did do aerobics, I never ran much faster than that. When I run now (about 4X's a year) I barely break a sweat. The toughest part about it is it's so fucking boring!
Chief: This is the common misunderstading about aerobics. For one thing, doctors have absolutely NO TRAINING in exercise physiology. Naturally, if someone sits around eating ice cream and watching Jerry Springer, a good walk or jog will do him good. It's better than nothing. And he'll lose weight. But that doesn't mean aerobics are the best form of exercise for a trained athlete to lose fat, and bodybuilders are trained athletes and they do aerobics to lose fat.
I should also say that I believe in an active lifestyle. I walk, I ride a bike (a real one) I recommend playing sports or dancing or even doing some old fashioned manual labor -- but these aren't things you have to go to the gym to do. It's just life stuff.
Besides, cardio inceases oxidation, strains the kness, ankles, shins and lower back.
Even Kennith Cooper admits this.
AEROBICS SUCK.
Lifts Iron: I went through a period where I did more than the standard 20 minutes -- up to 6 miles, but I got so flat I had to stop. Then I did what I thought I was supposed to do because everyone said so. Even though I no longer do aerobics, I check myself now and then and can still run a 10-12 minute mile -- not bad for 49 and the fact that even when I did do aerobics, I never ran much faster than that. When I run now (about 4X's a year) I barely break a sweat. The toughest part about it is it's so fucking boring!
Chief: This is the common misunderstading about aerobics. For one thing, doctors have absolutely NO TRAINING in exercise physiology. Naturally, if someone sits around eating ice cream and watching Jerry Springer, a good walk or jog will do him good. It's better than nothing. And he'll lose weight. But that doesn't mean aerobics are the best form of exercise for a trained athlete to lose fat, and bodybuilders are trained athletes and they do aerobics to lose fat.
I should also say that I believe in an active lifestyle. I walk, I ride a bike (a real one) I recommend playing sports or dancing or even doing some old fashioned manual labor -- but these aren't things you have to go to the gym to do. It's just life stuff.
Besides, cardio inceases oxidation, strains the kness, ankles, shins and lower back.
Even Kennith Cooper admits this.
AEROBICS SUCK.
Lift Chief
New member
Cardio does friggen suck- im still not sure but i hope you're right Nelson!
Cardio I feel is very important. Since I started doing 10 minutes of cardio after every workout my general health has increased alot. I workout every other day, so I only get 30-40 minutes of cardio a week. It hasn't interfered with my gains. In fact I feel it might have even helped my gains. It's nice being able to use the stairs instead of waiting for the elevator. Stairs would have killed me before I started cardio. My .02
Nelson Montana said:
Here's the thing; if you're talking about cardio being counter-productive, to the point where it's doing more harm than good, then I think you're classifying people all wrong. It's not the "genetic monsters" who are the small minority of the population, it's the ecto of all ectos that is in fact the very small minority. We have statistics of the high % of people who are obese and / or overweight. What percentage of the population is grossly UNDERweight, and not by choice? Because with what you say, that is the only possible conceivable group you're going to benefit (and that's only if you're looking to gain more muscle, not improve overall health).
I would not judge being able to run a 10-12 minute mile as good cardio vascular health. My mother, well into her 50's, runs under a 12 minute mile, and my dad, about an 8 or so. And they're not running fanatics, just once or twice a week, then moderate cardio as they see the need. They're not the skinny runner types either, average, but muscular people. --Cardio is boring? Headphones. Also, running really bothers my bad back, solution? I use the Precor (non impact) exclusively, maybe the recumbant bike once a month.
What was I doing in 97'? I had finished my first post-graduate degree, and while working I was about to begin the program I'm 4 months from finishing now (JD). What I do has involved publishing a number of works, and to this day, I have not recanted a single word, even pre-97. We're just going to have to disagree. But anyone thinking about xing the cardio, I would think again.
(d_a_w: And Dexter Jackson is not a good example, he is a 1 in a 1,000,000 freak, anyone looking at him, hoping it's possible to look ANYTHING like that without cardio,...go buy a lottery ticket).
Mischeif: There's a touch of irony that your signiture quote is one of my favorite examples of a dumb, specious expression. Sometimes what doesn't destroy you leaves you with irreperable damage.
Anyway, if I never run yet can run a 10 minute mile easily I'm not in good cardiovascular health? My pulse is 65 and my blood pressure is perfect. You see, I do exercise. In case you haven't heard, weightlifting is exercise.
I used to think as you do, that aerobics were just bad for ectos, but that isn't the case. I've had dozens of clients back when I was doing personal training and every endo did better with more weight training and less cardio.
Why the fuck should I ride a recumbant bike when I ride a real one? Do stationary bikes have some magical ability to burn fat that real ones don't?
Headphones? I have too much respect for music to use it as a distraction. If it's good, I want to listen to it, not train. I also have too much repect for the training process to attempt being distracted. Thanks for the suggestion though. I would never have thought of that myself.
Dexter Jackson is a one in 10000000 freak? Am I? Are the people I've trained? Are the people who've written to me who swear they have more energy and fuller, shaplier muscles since they stopped doing aerobics? What about Mike Menzter? I disagreed with him on a lot of stuff but he didn't do cardio and was pretty cut. Remember Zabo Kozewski? Unbelieveable definition. No cardio. How about Vince Gironda? No cardio. Charles Poliquin? No cardio. Dorian just used the bike for a warm up.
Aerobics are simply a less effective form of exercise than weight training. They have no magical fat burning power. They are no better at providing cardiovascular health than high rep, fast paced weight training.
Some people get it and some some people don't.
Anyway, if I never run yet can run a 10 minute mile easily I'm not in good cardiovascular health? My pulse is 65 and my blood pressure is perfect. You see, I do exercise. In case you haven't heard, weightlifting is exercise.
I used to think as you do, that aerobics were just bad for ectos, but that isn't the case. I've had dozens of clients back when I was doing personal training and every endo did better with more weight training and less cardio.
Why the fuck should I ride a recumbant bike when I ride a real one? Do stationary bikes have some magical ability to burn fat that real ones don't?
Headphones? I have too much respect for music to use it as a distraction. If it's good, I want to listen to it, not train. I also have too much repect for the training process to attempt being distracted. Thanks for the suggestion though. I would never have thought of that myself.
Dexter Jackson is a one in 10000000 freak? Am I? Are the people I've trained? Are the people who've written to me who swear they have more energy and fuller, shaplier muscles since they stopped doing aerobics? What about Mike Menzter? I disagreed with him on a lot of stuff but he didn't do cardio and was pretty cut. Remember Zabo Kozewski? Unbelieveable definition. No cardio. How about Vince Gironda? No cardio. Charles Poliquin? No cardio. Dorian just used the bike for a warm up.
Aerobics are simply a less effective form of exercise than weight training. They have no magical fat burning power. They are no better at providing cardiovascular health than high rep, fast paced weight training.
Some people get it and some some people don't.
chronic2371
New member
Nelson Montana said:
When speaking of the strains cardio puts on the knees, lower back, ankles and shins was Dr. Cooper talking about all forms of cardio, even non impact (ellipticals, bikes) or just running?
sauerbrauten
New member
I have to agree with Nelson...karma to you
S
Spartacus
Guest
Nelson Montana said:
Nelson Montana said:
1) Look up "irony", that's not irony. It's a common sense thing Nelson. It's not saying, "I could intentionally go break my femur, and it would hurt, a lot, but I would live, and I'll be better or stronger because of it." It's situational. See, apply it to the discipline in dieting, or sacraficing luxuries when necessary. Apply it to training in the gym, and pushing with every ounce of energy humanly possible. Anything can sound stupid with a non-sensical application. Just use some common sense, and I believe it's quite helpful.
2) I never said riding real bikes was any worse, in fact I love riding bikes. Any non-impact cardio is fine, I'm not sure where you got that from.
3) Your headphone comment makes zero sense to me. If I can train, and push harder, by being "distracted" by music, instead of thinking about muscle or cardiovascular failure, I'll do it. I have no doubt, that even as mentally tough as I am, with Slayer, or Biohazard etc blasting in my ears, somehow, I'm able to push even harder. I think most people agree. I too enjoy and appreciate music, especially when I'm not training, but I have NO idea what that has to do with anything.
4) No you're not a genetic freak, nor are ANY of your clients. And you, nor them, will EVER look ANYTHING like Dexter, that's my point. I'd be willing to bet $1,000 to your your $1, that not a single client under your philosiphy could even stand next to Dex on stage. THAT is what makes him a freak, a lucky freak granted.
Also, when Dorian was dieting for shows, he did up to 2 hours of cardio a day, get your facts straight and quit making things up.
Last edited:
Mischief said:
OK, I've spoken with Dorian before, and he told me the upper end of his cardio was 2 hours. But, here, I actually back up my statements instead of just pulling them out of my butt. Dorian is the only reputable name on your list for Bodybuilding purposes. And it appears as though he's no longer on your list of "fine atheletes who don't do cardio." I'm curious how many others you just make up. Here's a sample of an interview done with him "fairly" recently.
"BDJ: Even in respects to metabolic conditioning and reducing fat stores, there must be enough volume. Casey Viator made a comment in the Summer 2000 Exercise Protocol that he often approached overtraining by the time he competed. He had to do so much to get into the condition he wanted to be in and that it was that different from off-season mass building training.
Dorian Yates: I don't agree with that. Obviously if you do more activity you're going to burn more calories. Building muscle is exactly that, and maintaining muscle is basically the same thing. The idea is to reduce body fat by having a negative calorie balance and by increasing your calorie burning expenditure. I don't believe increasing the volume of weight training workouts is an efficient way of doing it. It will work, but I prefer an aerobic approach, being more of a pure fat burner.
BDJ: How do you apply your aerobic training when preparing for a contest.
Dorian Yates: The weight training I did in the off-season and in-season was pretty much the same. So, to burn the fat, besides lowering calories, I performed aerobics up to one hour a day. I did half-hour in the morning and half-hour in the evening, or as needed. It wasn't high intensity aerobic training, but low in intensity, so I used primarily fat for energy. You can lose fat by increasing exercises and sets, but you run the risk of being more catabolic and losing muscle tissue. It makes it more difficult to recover from a higher than normal volume of training as well."
Jeez Nelson, seems to fly right in the face of your, "exercise is the only calorie burning expenditure you need to get ripped", huh? No more using Dorian as an example...
Warmachine
New member
Nelson- not trying to pick a fight here, im just making an observation.
Apparently you have alot of knowledge to share, but on the board you dont share it . At first i thought it was to make peaple go buy your book. What you tell us on here are statements like this "Dont do that its bad" and then you dont elaborate...
For instance, look at this thread. You say dont do cardio, ok fine. How do you lose fat then? If you reduce calories drastically, you lose muscle, thats one of the hard lessons ive learned.
anyway, i dont intend this to be an attack. Im just disapointed that you dont share your knowledge, because thats what this board is about.
Apparently you have alot of knowledge to share, but on the board you dont share it . At first i thought it was to make peaple go buy your book. What you tell us on here are statements like this "Dont do that its bad" and then you dont elaborate...
For instance, look at this thread. You say dont do cardio, ok fine. How do you lose fat then? If you reduce calories drastically, you lose muscle, thats one of the hard lessons ive learned.
anyway, i dont intend this to be an attack. Im just disapointed that you dont share your knowledge, because thats what this board is about.
FreakMonster
New member
So has anyone read his book? Is there any good info in there?
here we go again! <GRIN>
Well, here we go again. What you are saying is simply not born out by the research. Sure, It can be your observation all night and day long but is it really a fact? Let see, regarding your quote below, at least according to a paper published in the journal of american medical association(you know well respected peer reviewed!) recently, you are dead wrong! Once again, it would have been nice to sort out the different types of weight training, and be able to massage the original data withour own variables but it is pretty clear at least to me that running(a form of aerobic training) had a significant impact on CVH. The other thing that impressed me in this study was the fact that it addressed weight training at all putting to rest that myth that folks who only weight train are not in better cardiac health. It is unlikely that we will ever have a study or studies that perfectly fit our questions but it is pretty foolish to just ignore them all!
=============================================
JAMA
Exercise Type and Intensity in Relation to Coronary Heart Disease in Men
Mihaela Tanasescu, MD; Michael F. Leitzmann, MD; Eric B. Rimm, ScD; Walter C. Willett, MD; Meir J. Stampfer, MD; Frank B. Hu, MD
Context Studies have shown an inverse relationship between exercise and risk of coronary heart disease (CHD), but data on type and intensity are sparse.
Objective To assess the amount, type, and intensity of physical activity in relation to risk of CHD among men.
Design, Setting, and Participants A cohort of 44 452 US men enrolled in the Health Professionals' Follow-up Study, followed up at 2-year intervals from 1986 through January 31, 1998, to assess potential CHD risk factors, identify newly diagnosed cases of CHD, and assess levels of leisure-time physical activity.
Main Outcome Measure Incident nonfatal myocardial infarction or fatal CHD occurring during the follow-up period.
Results During 475 755 person-years, we documented 1700 new cases of CHD. Total physical activity, running, weight training, and rowing were each inversely associated with risk of CHD. The RRs (95% confidence intervals [CIs]) corresponding to quintiles of metabolic equivalent tasks (METs) for total physical activity adjusted for age, smoking, and other cardiovascular risk factors were 1.0, 0.90 (0.78-1.04), 0.87 (0.75-1.00), 0.83 (0.71-0.96), and 0.70 (0.59-0.82) (P<.001 for trend). Men who ran for an hour or more per week had a 42% risk reduction (RR, 0.58; 95% CI, 0.44-0.77) compared with men who did not run (P<.001 for trend). Men who trained with weights for 30 minutes or more per week had a 23% risk reduction (RR, 0.77; 95% CI, 0.61-0.98) compared with men who did not train with weights (P = .03 for trend). Rowing for 1 hour or more per week was associated with an 18% risk reduction (RR, 0.82; 05% CI, 0.68-0.99). Average exercise intensity was associated with reduced CHD risk independent of the total volume of physical activity. The RRs (95% CIs) corresponding to moderate (4-6 METs) and high (6-12 METs) activity intensities were 0.94 (0.83-1.04) and 0.83 (0.72-0.97) compared with low activity intensity (<4 METs) (P = .02 for trend). A half-hour per day or more of brisk walking was associated with an 18% risk reduction (RR, 0.82; 95% CI, 0.67-1.00). Walking pace was associated with reduced CHD risk independent of the number of walking hours.
Conclusions Total physical activity, running, weight training, and walking were each associated with reduced CHD risk. Average exercise intensity was associated with reduced risk independent of the number of MET-hours spent in physical activity.
nelson montana: "...Aerobics are simply a less effective form of exercise than weight training. They have no magical fat burning power. They are no better at providing cardiovascular health than high rep, fast paced weight training.
Some people get it and some some people don't."
Well, here we go again. What you are saying is simply not born out by the research. Sure, It can be your observation all night and day long but is it really a fact? Let see, regarding your quote below, at least according to a paper published in the journal of american medical association(you know well respected peer reviewed!) recently, you are dead wrong!
Once again, it would have been nice to sort out the different types of weight training, and be able to massage the original data withour own variables but it is pretty clear at least to me that running(a form of aerobic training) had a significant impact on CVH. The other thing that impressed me in this study was the fact that it addressed weight training at all putting to rest that myth that folks who only weight train are not in better cardiac health. It is unlikely that we will ever have a study or studies that perfectly fit our questions but it is pretty foolish to just ignore them all!=============================================
JAMA
Exercise Type and Intensity in Relation to Coronary Heart Disease in Men
Mihaela Tanasescu, MD; Michael F. Leitzmann, MD; Eric B. Rimm, ScD; Walter C. Willett, MD; Meir J. Stampfer, MD; Frank B. Hu, MD
Context Studies have shown an inverse relationship between exercise and risk of coronary heart disease (CHD), but data on type and intensity are sparse.
Objective To assess the amount, type, and intensity of physical activity in relation to risk of CHD among men.
Design, Setting, and Participants A cohort of 44 452 US men enrolled in the Health Professionals' Follow-up Study, followed up at 2-year intervals from 1986 through January 31, 1998, to assess potential CHD risk factors, identify newly diagnosed cases of CHD, and assess levels of leisure-time physical activity.
Main Outcome Measure Incident nonfatal myocardial infarction or fatal CHD occurring during the follow-up period.
Results During 475 755 person-years, we documented 1700 new cases of CHD. Total physical activity, running, weight training, and rowing were each inversely associated with risk of CHD. The RRs (95% confidence intervals [CIs]) corresponding to quintiles of metabolic equivalent tasks (METs) for total physical activity adjusted for age, smoking, and other cardiovascular risk factors were 1.0, 0.90 (0.78-1.04), 0.87 (0.75-1.00), 0.83 (0.71-0.96), and 0.70 (0.59-0.82) (P<.001 for trend). Men who ran for an hour or more per week had a 42% risk reduction (RR, 0.58; 95% CI, 0.44-0.77) compared with men who did not run (P<.001 for trend). Men who trained with weights for 30 minutes or more per week had a 23% risk reduction (RR, 0.77; 95% CI, 0.61-0.98) compared with men who did not train with weights (P = .03 for trend). Rowing for 1 hour or more per week was associated with an 18% risk reduction (RR, 0.82; 05% CI, 0.68-0.99). Average exercise intensity was associated with reduced CHD risk independent of the total volume of physical activity. The RRs (95% CIs) corresponding to moderate (4-6 METs) and high (6-12 METs) activity intensities were 0.94 (0.83-1.04) and 0.83 (0.72-0.97) compared with low activity intensity (<4 METs) (P = .02 for trend). A half-hour per day or more of brisk walking was associated with an 18% risk reduction (RR, 0.82; 95% CI, 0.67-1.00). Walking pace was associated with reduced CHD risk independent of the number of walking hours.
Conclusions Total physical activity, running, weight training, and walking were each associated with reduced CHD risk. Average exercise intensity was associated with reduced risk independent of the number of MET-hours spent in physical activity.
nelson montana: "...Aerobics are simply a less effective form of exercise than weight training. They have no magical fat burning power. They are no better at providing cardiovascular health than high rep, fast paced weight training.
Some people get it and some some people don't."
Chronic: Yes, it was running Cooper was referring to.
4ever: No problem.
Polfa: Thanks bro.
Miscief -- again: The irony was that the statement is short sighted IMO.
Concerning music and training: I like to concentrate on training. If you're working out and listening to music one activity or the other suffers. IMO
Your comparison to me and my clients and Dexter Jackson is convoluted and confused. The point is, what works --works! It doesn't mean it'll turn normal folk into Dexter Jackson. Stay on the same page alright?
I'll admit I'm surprised to read that about Dorian because I've read where he said the exact opposite thing. (Never spoke to him but spoke with people who know him and they verified he wasn't a cardio guy). Maybe the interview I read was a phoney. Maybe the one you read was. (FLEX?) At any rate, he is hardly the only reputable example I gave. And it also sounds like he's talking about contest preperation. To be honest, his statement that more training is catabolic and cardio isn't is kind of dumb. Then again, he did train H.I.T style which would be catabolic if voluminous. I feel there's much more credibilty to the tactics of the pre-cutting drugs era when guys like Serge Nubret would super set dozens of sets. He and many of the other old timers got pretty ripped that way. No clen. No DNP. NO diuretics. No GH. No T3. No ephedra.
This is just one of those things which some people will never see eye to eye on. I have nothing to gain by convincing you to change your beliefs. I just offer an alternative that is logical, cogent, safer, and more productive. If you absolutely love cardio, don't let me stop you. But if you haven't been getting the results you hoped for, try dropping the cardio, cutting calories a bit, and upping the volume of training. I guarantee you will not be disappointed.
4ever: No problem.
Polfa: Thanks bro.
Miscief -- again: The irony was that the statement is short sighted IMO.
Concerning music and training: I like to concentrate on training. If you're working out and listening to music one activity or the other suffers. IMO
Your comparison to me and my clients and Dexter Jackson is convoluted and confused. The point is, what works --works! It doesn't mean it'll turn normal folk into Dexter Jackson. Stay on the same page alright?
I'll admit I'm surprised to read that about Dorian because I've read where he said the exact opposite thing. (Never spoke to him but spoke with people who know him and they verified he wasn't a cardio guy). Maybe the interview I read was a phoney. Maybe the one you read was. (FLEX?) At any rate, he is hardly the only reputable example I gave. And it also sounds like he's talking about contest preperation. To be honest, his statement that more training is catabolic and cardio isn't is kind of dumb. Then again, he did train H.I.T style which would be catabolic if voluminous. I feel there's much more credibilty to the tactics of the pre-cutting drugs era when guys like Serge Nubret would super set dozens of sets. He and many of the other old timers got pretty ripped that way. No clen. No DNP. NO diuretics. No GH. No T3. No ephedra.
This is just one of those things which some people will never see eye to eye on. I have nothing to gain by convincing you to change your beliefs. I just offer an alternative that is logical, cogent, safer, and more productive. If you absolutely love cardio, don't let me stop you. But if you haven't been getting the results you hoped for, try dropping the cardio, cutting calories a bit, and upping the volume of training. I guarantee you will not be disappointed.
Nelson Montana said:
This is my last post on this. The point is actually, what works for Dexter Jackson, is not the approach he uses, it is ONLY the fact that he is Dexter Jackson. And using his approach on anyone else, is silly, because Dex is a freak.
No, the article is not a fake, and it's not from Flex, which is usually BS. I've spoken with him personally and he admitted to going as high as an hour in the morning, and an hour at night, when dieting. It's about timing Nelson. Someone like Dorian, or anyone with a lot of muscle (that they intend to keep), needs the higher calories to maintain that. Simply outing the cardio and cutting calories is not feasable. Sure, it's elementry that Calories In vs. Calories Burned, must equal a deficeit for weight loss. But what isn't included in that overly simplistic equation is timing. See, after weight training, the more you can take in, the more your body can use and spare muscle with, at the time! Food doesn't just float around in your system for 24 hours, wait to see how much energy you use, and then decide how to dispose of it's self.
By seperating cardio and weight training, an athelete is able to eat high amounts of protein, (at the right times), not run flat by having no carbs, and still have room for healthy fats, which are essential when dieting down. Now to nix the cardio and lower calories, in order to allow a caloric defeceit, is to deprive the body of nutrients and calories it needs, at certain times. Normally this caloric requirement is higher than the dieting / defeceit caloric level, this is where the calorie burning cardio comes in. Done at the correct times, low to moderate intensity cardio, will burn those extra calories, with out being very catabloic to the muscle. There is a fine line to be walked, but it's fairly simple, and necessary. Simply increasing workout volume is unwise. Training should be heavy, and aimed to build muscle, always, that is it's primary purpose. Adding more resistance training, instead of cardio, impaires the body's ability to recooperate, (especially on your suggested lowered nutrition), and in such an environment, is detrimentally catabolic to muscle.
Dex doesn't use your higher the volume approach. He preps for contests solely with diet, he is lucky, and his body fights to hold on to muscle, unlike most. You have not discovered an "alternative that is logical, cogent, safer, and more productive", to the contrary, it denies an active athelete the calories and nutrition they need to be at their physical best. I'm VERY happy with my results, and I've never trained (or trained with) anyone who has ever placed out of the top 3 in an NPC contest. We know contest prep, and we know our bodies. If I were to suggest cutting cardio, we'd probably end up somewhere around 5th, and cry about a conspiracy. That's all, I'm done.
Warmachine: Not for nothin' bro but I think I give give quite a bit of explanation. But I can't be expected to give full detailed analysis to every post every time. As it is, I jump on the boards in my spare time and wind up having to explain myself several times over.
Mischief: We're just not connecting with the comparison to Dexter. His results aren't viable because he's a freak? But isn't Dorian a freak too? Maybe we shouldn't discuss genetic marvals on tons of gear.
One interesting thing about your post is it
flys smack in the face of the AM cardio myth that so many people defend to the death.
Also, you're wrong that food "doesn't hang around for 24 hours". You would have to fast for days before you were completely glycogen depleted, or run up to 15 miles.
As far as your comment about me placing 5th -- that's just low, and it's lame. Conspiricy? Who said that? You can make your point well, don't weaken it with lies and stupid accusations. I was just showing that if a little runt can place 5th at a national level contest with virually no gear, then anyone can -- IF, they do the right things.
As far as saying that more weight training would be catabolic, it's nonsense. There's no way to guage the intensity. Why is a concentraion curl catabolic, but repetive pounding of your weight on concrete isn't?
Like I said: Some people get it, and some people don't.
Mischief: We're just not connecting with the comparison to Dexter. His results aren't viable because he's a freak? But isn't Dorian a freak too? Maybe we shouldn't discuss genetic marvals on tons of gear.
One interesting thing about your post is it
flys smack in the face of the AM cardio myth that so many people defend to the death.
Also, you're wrong that food "doesn't hang around for 24 hours". You would have to fast for days before you were completely glycogen depleted, or run up to 15 miles.
As far as your comment about me placing 5th -- that's just low, and it's lame. Conspiricy? Who said that? You can make your point well, don't weaken it with lies and stupid accusations. I was just showing that if a little runt can place 5th at a national level contest with virually no gear, then anyone can -- IF, they do the right things.
As far as saying that more weight training would be catabolic, it's nonsense. There's no way to guage the intensity. Why is a concentraion curl catabolic, but repetive pounding of your weight on concrete isn't?
Like I said: Some people get it, and some people don't.
Nelson Montana said:
No, we get it, we get top 2 in every show we enter (One 3rd, not me though).
And since it's off topic, Most pro's aren't on "tons of gear". That's a myth due to a few professional idiots who actually do (none of the top guys), and everyone else trying to explain why these guys are so much further than everyone else. It's 2 things, genetics, (a big one), and consistant hard work. I'd venture an acurate guess than the podium in a Nationals Open division, LHW and up, doses just as much or more than most pros. I know this for a fact, and that's as specific as I'm going to get. But I do know this for certain, and I'm not speculating / assuming the biggest guys are the heaviest juicers, it just doesn't work that way.
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What we have here is a failure to communicate. Nelson is not so much interested in learning or sharing knowledge as he is in espousing his own irrevocable training philosophies and practices. If, at any point, these do not coincide with fact or if someone points out that there are perhaps good reasons to believe otherwise, the head goes deep into the sand. Just because something works for you and your trainees, does not mean that that is the only path to nirvana or even the best path. Who the hell am I to say all this, no one. But I am reasonably intelligent, easily swayed by a logical and cogent arguement and left absolutely cold by someone who when challenged with knowledge can only respond with inuendo or simply not respond at all. This is two threads in two days that mr montana when faced with contradictory information has not been able to respond with anything resembling an articulate arguement and i am not talking just about my portion of the thread. I find this disappointing but I guess i should not be surprised. Did you say you wrote a book, Nelson? Are there any references in it? I'm am guessing that the appendix and biblio are pretty small based on what I am seeing here. I am really beginning to understand your sig line:
>>Like I said: Some people get it, and some people don't.
Mischief: good job, enjoyable reading and points well made. Looking foreard to hearing more from you.
>>Like I said: Some people get it, and some people don't.
Mischief: good job, enjoyable reading and points well made. Looking foreard to hearing more from you.
jbolderman: I've hid my head in the sand? I've addressed every point thrown at me. I'm sorry if it wasn't to your satisfaction. Then again, Dave Draper, Dennis Weis, Eric Serrano, Lou Schuler and Rick Collins all praised the book. I guess they don't know anything either. But wait...they actually read the book. So far, the biggest detractors are two guys who haven't.
That kinda says it all.
That kinda says it all.
Nelson Montana Age 40
"Come back to me when you're 40 and let's see what you look like."
Bill Pearl Age 56 VEGETARIAN
"Montana explains how the supposed benefits of Vegetarianism don't hold water. "
I am buying the book just to see how Bill Pearl was so misinformed.
"Come back to me when you're 40 and let's see what you look like."
Bill Pearl Age 56 VEGETARIAN
"Montana explains how the supposed benefits of Vegetarianism don't hold water. "
I am buying the book just to see how Bill Pearl was so misinformed.
Hey utter; Why not post the "before" picture of me? I put on 30 pounds of muscle in 2 years while lowering my bodyfat 100% drug free at age 40. Sorry if I'm not Bill Pearl.
And incidentally, Bill Pearl became a vegetarian later in life, and yes, I see no advantage to it and question the philosophy, but anyone is entitled to follow it if they choose to.
And incidentally, Bill Pearl became a vegetarian later in life, and yes, I see no advantage to it and question the philosophy, but anyone is entitled to follow it if they choose to.
You know I didnt really like Nelson much until i started reading this post..I still disagree with Nelson on some of his supplement views from the supp board..
However NELSON IS RIGHT ABOUT CARDIO...CARDIO SUCKS!!
I went through it too and I figured out that CARDIO BURNS MORE MUSCLE THAN FAT!
Why would your body want to burn fat before muscle?? It wouldnt and it doesnt! your body is made for survival and it will hold onto its fat stores and burn the muscle first..
I am willing to bet that for the average drug free genetically average 30 year-old for every 10 pounds of bodyweight lost MORE THAN HALF THE WEIGHT LOST WILL BE MUSCLE...probably much more than your realize
And that Yates comparison is bogus. Those pro's are on so much shit that they can do cardio and not burn up muscle doing it so they get away with it....the average trainee reads that and copies it with a ton of cardio and ends up as a smaller weaker and hopefully smarter man/woman.
However NELSON IS RIGHT ABOUT CARDIO...CARDIO SUCKS!!
I went through it too and I figured out that CARDIO BURNS MORE MUSCLE THAN FAT!
Why would your body want to burn fat before muscle?? It wouldnt and it doesnt! your body is made for survival and it will hold onto its fat stores and burn the muscle first..
I am willing to bet that for the average drug free genetically average 30 year-old for every 10 pounds of bodyweight lost MORE THAN HALF THE WEIGHT LOST WILL BE MUSCLE...probably much more than your realize
And that Yates comparison is bogus. Those pro's are on so much shit that they can do cardio and not burn up muscle doing it so they get away with it....the average trainee reads that and copies it with a ton of cardio and ends up as a smaller weaker and hopefully smarter man/woman.
liftsiron
New member
Nelson Montana I do not completely agree with your views on cardio, but I agree 100% that between weight training and cardio, weight training is far more effective that cardio for fat loss. I also believe that cardio is a distant second to weight training as far as overall health beneifits go. I plan on doing a bodybuilding show in april of next year, what I'm going to do starting now is eliminate cardio from my training, and see what happens. I do think that my muscles will be fuller. I'll see if I can figure out how to post a pic (I have a new PC) from last april, liftsiron at 45 years of age. By the way my wife does no aerobics and stays lean and muscular year around, she has a much better shape than any of the gym's aerobic queens. I like and agree with the majority of your ideas.
ps I bought your book from elite and enjoyed reading it.
ps I bought your book from elite and enjoyed reading it.
Cirrus2000
New member
logic1 said:Those who can do and those who can't teach
.logic.
I agree with this, very very true.
As you point out, I have not read the book and am unlikely to do so based on what have read here. I did not give it a negative review, I simply made an assumption, clearly noted, that based on your style here it would not be extensively referenced other than anecdotally. You have not addressed every point, eg my previous post wherein I point out that not only is aerobic exercise important for cvh(cardio vascular health) it reduces risk more than does weight training (based on the study results), hence the "bury his head in the sand" comment. I am sure that you are very good at what you do, your problem lies in communicating your knowledge effectively and, gasp, occasionally backing it up with something other than "i said so". I saw the ulter posted photo of you at 40 via natural traning, not bad! How old are you now? I am closer to sixty and of course not drug free but dont look too bad myself. The pictures we all realize do not mean much since we know that you do not have to look like a champion to train a champion. I will also confess that I have no aspirations to compete and you travel in heady circles indeed, I am more concerned with the vast majority(i believe) of us out here that will never set foot on the stage but still have a lot to learn to better ourselves physically while maintaining or improving our health. I respect your willingness to come to a public forum and subject yourself to open questioning and hope you respect my willingness to question things that seem wrong to me.
How old are you now? I am closer to sixty and of course not drug free but dont look too bad myself. The pictures we all realize do not mean much since we know that you do not have to look like a champion to train a champion. I will also confess that I have no aspirations to compete and you travel in heady circles indeed, I am more concerned with the vast majority(i believe) of us out here that will never set foot on the stage but still have a lot to learn to better ourselves physically while maintaining or improving our health. I respect your willingness to come to a public forum and subject yourself to open questioning and hope you respect my willingness to question things that seem wrong to me.Nelson Montana said:
jbolderman: Fair enough --but I don't think I ever made a retort by saying "I said so." I've tried to present evidence in a concise way. For instance, there are plenty of reasons for not doing cardio. I devote an entire chapter to it.
Cytomel brought up a good point and it's one I address in the book:
Fat is 9 calories a gram. Protein is 4 calories per gram. If you subject yourself to long term low resistance exercise (aerobics) the body will attept to adapt to the task by losing weight, because as Cyto pointed out, the body is built for survival. Now what is more efficient to lose -- something that takes 9 calories to burn? Or something that takes 4 calories to burn? In other words, muscle tissue is a readily available source of energy. The body, when stressed, will hoarde fat for survival. Are you folowing this?
People think they're burning fat because they're sweating. They may even look leaner from the fluid loss. But they are burning more muscle than fat when they do sustained cardio. There's other evidence for my reasoning but perhaps this will make things a little clearer.
I will also reiterate that my methods are not geared for competitive bodybuilder. It stems from my experience as a life-long hard gainer who went from a scrawny runt at age 37 to a body model at age 40 without ever seeing a drug. And with minute amounts of gear went on to place 5th at the NPC Championships. Maybe that doesn't impress Mschief but I'm proud of it. But what makes me most proud, is not when someone thinks I look good, but when they say they enjoyed my writing. And to everyone who has mentioned that on the boards I'd like to offer my thanks and appreciation.
Cytomel brought up a good point and it's one I address in the book:
Fat is 9 calories a gram. Protein is 4 calories per gram. If you subject yourself to long term low resistance exercise (aerobics) the body will attept to adapt to the task by losing weight, because as Cyto pointed out, the body is built for survival. Now what is more efficient to lose -- something that takes 9 calories to burn? Or something that takes 4 calories to burn? In other words, muscle tissue is a readily available source of energy. The body, when stressed, will hoarde fat for survival. Are you folowing this?
People think they're burning fat because they're sweating. They may even look leaner from the fluid loss. But they are burning more muscle than fat when they do sustained cardio. There's other evidence for my reasoning but perhaps this will make things a little clearer.
I will also reiterate that my methods are not geared for competitive bodybuilder. It stems from my experience as a life-long hard gainer who went from a scrawny runt at age 37 to a body model at age 40 without ever seeing a drug. And with minute amounts of gear went on to place 5th at the NPC Championships. Maybe that doesn't impress Mschief but I'm proud of it. But what makes me most proud, is not when someone thinks I look good, but when they say they enjoyed my writing. And to everyone who has mentioned that on the boards I'd like to offer my thanks and appreciation.
JoNaThAnPeTeRs
New member
Re: by the way!
fair enough, then what kind of diet would u recommend, say 16 weeks out of a competition, or 12-16 weeks of solid dieting...that would help alot if u could give a solid example of a diet that wouldnt need any supplementary cardio for fat loss...Quadsweep said:
MUSTGETHUUUUUGE
New member
How do you burn fat without cardio?
LivinLarger
New member
I also agree, cardio is wasted time that could be spent training, resting, or feeding.
I believe weight training is the absolute best way to burn fat, I now have a hard time eating enough cals to gain weight where as before I got so damn big, I had to watch my intake or I would get fat.
Muscle burns calories, the more muscle you have the more calories you burn, pretty simple stuff.
Nelson I agree with your cardio stance 100%
LL
I believe weight training is the absolute best way to burn fat, I now have a hard time eating enough cals to gain weight where as before I got so damn big, I had to watch my intake or I would get fat.
Muscle burns calories, the more muscle you have the more calories you burn, pretty simple stuff.
Nelson I agree with your cardio stance 100%
LL
Re: Re: by the way!
My diet is similar 8 weeks before this with the exception of more protein and a little more carbs.
8 weeks out
Meal #1
8 oz. 92% lean beef, chicken breast or turkey breast
3 egg whites, 1 yolk
1 grapefruit
Meal #2
Protein Drink: 3 scoops Ultra Size, 2 TBS Heavy Cream, 1 TBS Flax Oil, 18 oz
water
or
9 oz can tuna or 8 oz Chicken breast
3 egg whites, 1 tomato
Meal #3
8 ounces chicken (weighed prior to cooking) about 2 chicken breasts
4 cups salad (lettuce, tomato, carrot, cucumber, green peppers, etc.) or 2
cups green beans
2 TBL Cider Vinegar and 1 TBS Sunflower Oil (or other vegetable oil) for a
dressing
Meal #4
9 oz can tuna or 8 oz chicken breast
3 egg whites, 1 tomato
or
Protein Drink: 2 scoops Muscle Provider, (add 1 carton egg beaters in place
of) 1 scoop 100% Egg, 2 TBS Whipping Cream, 1 TBS Flax Oil, 4 strawberries,
12 oz water
Meal #5
10 oz chicken breast, turkey breast or very lean beef (filet would be ideal)
2 cups green leafy vegetables or salad
Meal #6
9 Egg Whites w/ ½ cup omelet vegetables
or: Protein Drink: 2 scoops Muscle Provider, 2 tsp. Flax Oil, 4
strawberries, 12 oz water
Monday and Thursday: In place of your normal sixth meal: 1.5 cups oatmeal
(precooked) or cooked rice, 10 oz. sweet potato, 6 oz. banana, 1 cup
vegetables, 1 TBS sesame oil at the end of the day - no supplements with
this meal
Supplements:
Super Pak w/ 1st meal
6 - Ultra 40 liver w/ every meal
2 - Lean Out, 1 Energy Reserve with thermogenic - three times daily on an
empty stomach
4 Mass amino + 3 Muscularity with every meal
3 weeks out
Meal #1
8 oz. 92% lean beef, chicken breast or turkey breast
3 egg whites, 1 yolk
½ grapefruit
Meal #2
Protein Drink: 1 scoops Ultra Size,3 scoops Muscle Provider
Meal #3
8 ounces chicken (weighed prior to cooking) about 2 chicken breasts
4 cups salad (lettuce, tomato, carrot, cucumber, green peppers, etc.) or 2
cups green beans
2 TBL Cider Vinegar and 1 TBS Sunflower Oil (or other vegetable oil) for a
dressing
Meal #4
Protein Drink: 2 scoops Ultra Size 2 scoops Muscle Provider
Meal #5
8 oz chicken breast, turkey breast or very lean beef (filet would be ideal)
2 cups green leafy vegetables or salad
Monday and Thursday: I add as a sixth meal: 1.5 cups oatmeal
(precooked) or cooked rice, 12 oz. sweet potato, 6 oz. banana,
1 TBS Natural Peanut Butter - no supplements with
this meal
Supplements:
Super Pak w/ 1st meal
6 - Ultra 40 w/ every meal
6 Mass Amino w/ every meal
3 - Lean Out, 2 Energy Reserve 3 GH Factor before each meal on an empty stomach
There you go!
Quad
JoNaThAnPeTeRs said:
My diet is similar 8 weeks before this with the exception of more protein and a little more carbs.
8 weeks out
Meal #1
8 oz. 92% lean beef, chicken breast or turkey breast
3 egg whites, 1 yolk
1 grapefruit
Meal #2
Protein Drink: 3 scoops Ultra Size, 2 TBS Heavy Cream, 1 TBS Flax Oil, 18 oz
water
or
9 oz can tuna or 8 oz Chicken breast
3 egg whites, 1 tomato
Meal #3
8 ounces chicken (weighed prior to cooking) about 2 chicken breasts
4 cups salad (lettuce, tomato, carrot, cucumber, green peppers, etc.) or 2
cups green beans
2 TBL Cider Vinegar and 1 TBS Sunflower Oil (or other vegetable oil) for a
dressing
Meal #4
9 oz can tuna or 8 oz chicken breast
3 egg whites, 1 tomato
or
Protein Drink: 2 scoops Muscle Provider, (add 1 carton egg beaters in place
of) 1 scoop 100% Egg, 2 TBS Whipping Cream, 1 TBS Flax Oil, 4 strawberries,
12 oz water
Meal #5
10 oz chicken breast, turkey breast or very lean beef (filet would be ideal)
2 cups green leafy vegetables or salad
Meal #6
9 Egg Whites w/ ½ cup omelet vegetables
or: Protein Drink: 2 scoops Muscle Provider, 2 tsp. Flax Oil, 4
strawberries, 12 oz water
Monday and Thursday: In place of your normal sixth meal: 1.5 cups oatmeal
(precooked) or cooked rice, 10 oz. sweet potato, 6 oz. banana, 1 cup
vegetables, 1 TBS sesame oil at the end of the day - no supplements with
this meal
Supplements:
Super Pak w/ 1st meal
6 - Ultra 40 liver w/ every meal
2 - Lean Out, 1 Energy Reserve with thermogenic - three times daily on an
empty stomach
4 Mass amino + 3 Muscularity with every meal
3 weeks out
Meal #1
8 oz. 92% lean beef, chicken breast or turkey breast
3 egg whites, 1 yolk
½ grapefruit
Meal #2
Protein Drink: 1 scoops Ultra Size,3 scoops Muscle Provider
Meal #3
8 ounces chicken (weighed prior to cooking) about 2 chicken breasts
4 cups salad (lettuce, tomato, carrot, cucumber, green peppers, etc.) or 2
cups green beans
2 TBL Cider Vinegar and 1 TBS Sunflower Oil (or other vegetable oil) for a
dressing
Meal #4
Protein Drink: 2 scoops Ultra Size 2 scoops Muscle Provider
Meal #5
8 oz chicken breast, turkey breast or very lean beef (filet would be ideal)
2 cups green leafy vegetables or salad
Monday and Thursday: I add as a sixth meal: 1.5 cups oatmeal
(precooked) or cooked rice, 12 oz. sweet potato, 6 oz. banana,
1 TBS Natural Peanut Butter - no supplements with
this meal
Supplements:
Super Pak w/ 1st meal
6 - Ultra 40 w/ every meal
6 Mass Amino w/ every meal
3 - Lean Out, 2 Energy Reserve 3 GH Factor before each meal on an empty stomach
There you go!
Quad
JoNaThAnPeTeRs
New member
Re: Re: Re: by the way!
so basically, high protein, decent fats, and no carbs...how did u alter ur workouts?? im sure u didnt train the same way as u did in the offseason...thanks mr. sweepQuadsweep said:
Re: Re: Re: Re: by the way!
Actually I do train the same almost right up to the show. I did 365 for eight the week before the show. I cut out squats and deads 4 weeks out but that is about it.
Quad
JoNaThAnPeTeRs said:
so basically, high protein, decent fats, and no carbs...how did u alter ur workouts?? im sure u didnt train the same way as u did in the offseason...thanks mr. sweep
Actually I do train the same almost right up to the show. I did 365 for eight the week before the show. I cut out squats and deads 4 weeks out but that is about it.
Quad
wonderstanding
New member
THANK YOU for this thread... you guys are putting into plain and simple statements what I've known deep down and have been TRYING to convince my GF of (she jogs and is much higher BF% than I am)
the ONLY running I do is sprints.
thanks guys,
Forrest
the ONLY running I do is sprints.
thanks guys,
Forrest
JoNaThAnPeTeRs
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: by the way!
how old are you...how tall...how much do you weigh in/out of season...what would u consider urself(ecto, meso, endo)...and what did ur off season diet look like...thanks again mr quadzilla...
thanks alot for the info...let me ask you...Quadsweep said:
how old are you...how tall...how much do you weigh in/out of season...what would u consider urself(ecto, meso, endo)...and what did ur off season diet look like...thanks again mr quadzilla...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: by the way!
I am 33yo, 5' 7" tall off season when I do not have a torn bicep I weigh about 245# @ 6.5%, And I am a Meso for sure. You do not even want to know my off season diet! 212# of lean fat burning mass is nice!
Quad
JoNaThAnPeTeRs said:
thanks alot for the info...let me ask you...
how old are you...how tall...how much do you weigh in/out of season...what would u consider urself(ecto, meso, endo)...and what did ur off season diet look like...thanks again mr quadzilla...
I am 33yo, 5' 7" tall off season when I do not have a torn bicep I weigh about 245# @ 6.5%, And I am a Meso for sure. You do not even want to know my off season diet! 212# of lean fat burning mass is nice!
Quad
Warmachine
New member
Quad, will someone following your precontest diet lose muscle if not on anabolics?
I am looking for a diet to follow to lean out slowly over about 4 monthes. i will be natural during this time. i was going to change my diet very little, as i have been told (and experianced) that a sudden drop in calories will make you lose muscle.
was going to start running 20-25 minits 3 times a week first thing in the morning and bump it up over the monthes. This is what the natty bodybuilders at my gym do precontest.
everytime ive tried to cut back on my diet(or lower carbs) i lose a shitload of weight and half of it is muscle
so would i lose muscle on your diet?
I am looking for a diet to follow to lean out slowly over about 4 monthes. i will be natural during this time. i was going to change my diet very little, as i have been told (and experianced) that a sudden drop in calories will make you lose muscle.
was going to start running 20-25 minits 3 times a week first thing in the morning and bump it up over the monthes. This is what the natty bodybuilders at my gym do precontest.
everytime ive tried to cut back on my diet(or lower carbs) i lose a shitload of weight and half of it is muscle
so would i lose muscle on your diet?
40butpumpin
New member
Re: by the way!
...and the hammer falls.
Nelson you are one tough hombre, brother, and I'm glad to know you.
Quadsweep said:
...and the hammer falls.
Nelson you are one tough hombre, brother, and I'm glad to know you.
Bigsatan13
New member
Cirrus2000 said:
Why? Wouldn't you rather learn from someone who has had hands on experience then someone who just has theories?
F
Frackal
Guest
As a hardgainer I do no cardio either and easily maintain an 8 percent bodyfat naturally at 215, 20 rep squats is more than suffiecient for my cardiovascular needs
Thaibox
New member
With regards to Dan Duchaine not being a big fucker, he had a hereditary polycystic kidney disease. I believe it was this that would fuck up his training and growth for months at a time. No one would be a monster under these conditions.
I'm about 265 right now. I haven't done cardio for about a year and a half. In that time, I have made the best size and strength progress of ten years of lifting. I'm not sure of my exact bf%, but I have a relaxed 4 pack.
N Montana, I've disagreed with much you've said in the past about many things. You've made completely foolish statements and provided proof inadequate for an elementary school debate. However, you do make some good points, as well as some strong qualified arguments occasionally. My problems with you have already been addressed by others, so I will simply say that although I think you preach much bullshit sometimes, you have progressed in the body bulding game and have shown much dedication and a strong will. For this I give you respect.
(Because thats what Batman would do )
I'm about 265 right now. I haven't done cardio for about a year and a half. In that time, I have made the best size and strength progress of ten years of lifting. I'm not sure of my exact bf%, but I have a relaxed 4 pack.
N Montana, I've disagreed with much you've said in the past about many things. You've made completely foolish statements and provided proof inadequate for an elementary school debate. However, you do make some good points, as well as some strong qualified arguments occasionally. My problems with you have already been addressed by others, so I will simply say that although I think you preach much bullshit sometimes, you have progressed in the body bulding game and have shown much dedication and a strong will. For this I give you respect.
(Because thats what Batman would do
)
F
Frackal
Guest
i AM batman
fallenangel
New member
whatever your opinions this is a good and informative thread
Nelson Montana said:
Don't forget to mention the ab etching procedure you had done Nelson....
http://www.testosterone.net/html/body_65abs.html
Here is a skinny guy who is telling people that they can eat pizza and not do cardio and still be lean yet he had cosmetic surgery????
I wonder how many people have read this thread and bought this guys book to learn that secret?
Nelson is basically using the same BS marketing principles to sell his book that he has accused the supplement industry of using.
Last edited:
Fonz said:
Sorry if this sounds overly stupid........LOL
But what on earth is "Ab etching"?
(I have ZERO, nada, no frigging clue whatsoever...
Fonz
He explains it in the article mate, basically some lipo, sucking out some fat cells in strategic positions to make the abs look good.
And with no fat cells there you can eat whatever you want for the most part and have a six pack year round.
I wonder if this is the bodybuilding "truth" in his book?
ADA: As you can see from that pic of me at age 40, and a lifetime natural, I'm hardly carrying much fat. I agreed to have the procedure done for an assignment. (Some regrets there) To be honest, it didn't make much of a difference, even though Dr. Nadler did a good job. A lot of people ask me about this and I usually say I would recommend the obliques but not the rectus.
If I didn't train or eat correctly I'd get that fat right back.
Incidentally, before the flames fly about how poorly I looked in that "before" shot, I was going through some personal problems with the illness of my dad. The "after" shot I believe is more a testament to proper training than the procedure.
Thaibox: I was going to PM you but I might as well address it here. You obviously put some thought into your response. If it were a mindless flame I'd ignore it. But what statements haven't I backed up? I don't have researched documents for everything I espose since much of it is based on real world evidence and no studies have yet been conducted, but I believe I present logical reasoning to my theories.
I know I'm a contrarian and expect to get challenged. To make things easier, here's a quick list of some of my viewpoints that really piss people off -- until they realize they're true.
Nutrient timing will have no effect on how you look in the long run.
Most famous strength coaches don't know anything that a million other people don't know.
The effect of the glycemic index of a food is way overstated.
There is most definitely such as thing as a "hardgainer."
There is no such thing as an anabolc supplement.
The Ketogenic diet will cause stress, perhaps irreparable, to the metabolism.
More work does not mean more progress.
Insulin, DNP, Synthol,and Nubain have no place in real bodybulding.
Sit ups and leg raises are not the most effective ways to work the abs.
Ephedra in suggested dosages only supresses appitite. It does not burn fat, and in the long run, will cause you to hoarde fat from down regulation. Adding asperin does nothing.
GH is the most over-rated drug in the sport.
90% of what you read in the magazines is just "made up" stuff -- and wrong.
90% of what you read from internet gurus is researched, analyzed and based on scientific calculations -- and wrong.
Aerobics suck.
Now I know some of this will shake some convictions and I will be questioned, but please understand, although I'll try to resond whenever possible, I can not address every question and comment with a detailed explanation on this forum. That's why I wrote a book.
If I didn't train or eat correctly I'd get that fat right back.
Incidentally, before the flames fly about how poorly I looked in that "before" shot, I was going through some personal problems with the illness of my dad. The "after" shot I believe is more a testament to proper training than the procedure.
Thaibox: I was going to PM you but I might as well address it here. You obviously put some thought into your response. If it were a mindless flame I'd ignore it. But what statements haven't I backed up? I don't have researched documents for everything I espose since much of it is based on real world evidence and no studies have yet been conducted, but I believe I present logical reasoning to my theories.
I know I'm a contrarian and expect to get challenged. To make things easier, here's a quick list of some of my viewpoints that really piss people off -- until they realize they're true.
Nutrient timing will have no effect on how you look in the long run.
Most famous strength coaches don't know anything that a million other people don't know.
The effect of the glycemic index of a food is way overstated.
There is most definitely such as thing as a "hardgainer."
There is no such thing as an anabolc supplement.
The Ketogenic diet will cause stress, perhaps irreparable, to the metabolism.
More work does not mean more progress.
Insulin, DNP, Synthol,and Nubain have no place in real bodybulding.
Sit ups and leg raises are not the most effective ways to work the abs.
Ephedra in suggested dosages only supresses appitite. It does not burn fat, and in the long run, will cause you to hoarde fat from down regulation. Adding asperin does nothing.
GH is the most over-rated drug in the sport.
90% of what you read in the magazines is just "made up" stuff -- and wrong.
90% of what you read from internet gurus is researched, analyzed and based on scientific calculations -- and wrong.
Aerobics suck.
Now I know some of this will shake some convictions and I will be questioned, but please understand, although I'll try to resond whenever possible, I can not address every question and comment with a detailed explanation on this forum. That's why I wrote a book.
Nelson,
A fat cell is like a balloon filled with air, the fatter you are the more fat stored in it (like air in a balloon).
You had the cells REMOVED, which means fat can no longer be stored there, unless you fill up every other fat cell in your body and therefore force it to make more cells.
You would have to get very fat to gain back those cells.
I also think that in your about page on your site:
http://www.nelsonmontana.com/about-nelson-montana.html
Calling the image on your homepage (not the NPC image the other one on the right) a "recent shot" is somewhat misleading as well since its the same pic from your mid 1999 article. I would not call 3 and a half years ago a "recent shot".
A fat cell is like a balloon filled with air, the fatter you are the more fat stored in it (like air in a balloon).
You had the cells REMOVED, which means fat can no longer be stored there, unless you fill up every other fat cell in your body and therefore force it to make more cells.
You would have to get very fat to gain back those cells.
I also think that in your about page on your site:
http://www.nelsonmontana.com/about-nelson-montana.html
Calling the image on your homepage (not the NPC image the other one on the right) a "recent shot" is somewhat misleading as well since its the same pic from your mid 1999 article. I would not call 3 and a half years ago a "recent shot".
Yes, the fat cells are removed but more fat can be deposited. You comment about "filling up every other fat cell in the body" isn't entirely accurate.
At age 49, 3 years ago seems pretty recent.
Actually, after going on test replacement 6 months ago I feel I look better than I did in that pic from '99. Can't post though. Maybe I'll take new shots and put them on the site. At any rate, is this really relevant?
One more thing I forgot to include in that last list.
"Short, low dose cycles provide more solid and longer lasting gains."
At age 49, 3 years ago seems pretty recent.
Actually, after going on test replacement 6 months ago I feel I look better than I did in that pic from '99. Can't post though. Maybe I'll take new shots and put them on the site. At any rate, is this really relevant?
One more thing I forgot to include in that last list.
"Short, low dose cycles provide more solid and longer lasting gains."
All I am doing is showing that you are being somewhat economical with the truth, I believe that if you had said:
"The picture of me on the right is 3.5 years old showing me after having elective surgery to improve my abs"
You would not have such great sales with the book would you? Yet this is the "truth" that you are so hellbound to espouse.
I suggest that you don't try to sell a book based on your integrity when you haven't explained these things to people, lest you fall flat on your ass when these facts do come out.
"The picture of me on the right is 3.5 years old showing me after having elective surgery to improve my abs"
You would not have such great sales with the book would you? Yet this is the "truth" that you are so hellbound to espouse.
I suggest that you don't try to sell a book based on your integrity when you haven't explained these things to people, lest you fall flat on your ass when these facts do come out.
FreakMonster
New member
Nelson Montana said:
I'm curious then, what is the most effective way to work your abs?
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