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Nelson is correct, BB bench is pointless and outdated.

  • Thread starter Thread starter HighIntensity
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HighIntensity

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but he sayd dips are the most important...I say

Dips

Incline DB press

Decline DB press


these are the only chest exercises you will ever need in life. The key is hitting the chest three times a week with rest pauses HIT training. 4 sets min. a day.
 
I wouldn't say pointless, maybe over emphasized. Where are the flys? You gotta have flys. The comment is a little too general, it's highly dependant on goals and the person.
 
Incline DB presses top my list as the most effective chest exercise. I think that flys are a waste of time, provided that you perform your DB presses correctly.:)
 
I don't do flat barbell bench presses anymore for various reasons. But for someone just starting off or new to bodybuilding I think the flat barbell bench should be a staple in their training to build a foundation for chest development and a strong upper body.
 
I have always gotten compliments on my chest. I built it with:

Barbell Bench Press
Incline Barbell Bench
Flat bench Flies
Pullovers

Never failed me. It's about form.
 
I love bench press . . .

My Pecs are always getting comments and grabbed. I use the other exercises to shape my chest.

And what is this crap about three times a week. That is overtraining big time. Unless you are going light and trying to get very ripped. That is how my wife works out.
 
Spectre said:
I wouldn't say pointless, maybe over emphasized. Where are the flys? You gotta have flys. The comment is a little too general, it's highly dependant on goals and the person.

Agreed!
 
So you're saying that someone new to bodybuilding or just a healthy life style shouldn't bench press? What about building a sound foundation of strength first? Bench press is great for newbies cuz it's a compound exercise and involves so many muscles. that way they're strengthing more muscles with one lift and improving functional strength.
 
Hit chest once a week hard and heavy.

Incline Dumbell (Always first)
100 x 15, 110 x 15, 12 x 15, 120 x 12

Flat Hammer
4 Plates x 14, 6 plates x 10, 8 plates x 6, 4 plates to exhaust

Flat flies
60 x 10, 70 x10, 80x 8

4 sets dips
 
bench press (BB or DB) to chest is like curling is 2 arms, like the squat is 2 legs, like some form of a sit up is 2 abs, plus it's a great test of strength... yea the question everyone asks me when the talk about lifting comes up "hey what's your dip like" ha ha NO it's "what's your BENCH" and if your not doing it than I would assume A. possible shoulder injury, or is the real reason
B. that you cant throw 2 much on... and remember this the BP has been around 4 ever, and not everyone has been walking around with their head up their ass so you cant say it's a waste of time..
 
The bench press has its place. I haven't flat barbell benched in probably 8yrs or so. Seems many start with it, build a foundation, and then "move on".....I like inclines now.....
 
I attribute much of my chest mass and strenght to benching.
My chest work out consists of

Flat Bench 6 sets
Incline bench 4 sets
Flys 4 sets
Pec Dec 3 sets

This routine has served me well so far so i dont see a reason to change it.
 
IMO Flat Free-Weight Barbell Bench Good. Many stabilizer muscles used in addition to chest muscles.

IMO Isolation chest excercises should be done after Incline Barbell/Incline Dumbbell Bench and after Flat Barbell/Dumbbell Bench.
 
Zoomster said:
It's about form.

So true....that is what separates you from the other guy benching the same weight. He is sporatic, with bad form, and all over the place and you are calmly, controlling the weight up with good form. Personally I love the BB Flat Bench Press...and the Incline Bench for that matter...lol. Just my .02
 
if in the year 2003 I need to explain the theory behind more then 52 growth periods a year for your chest then were all in trouble.
 
No one ever said benching wouldn't work. It just doesn't work as well or as safely as other movements.

As far as benching being good for the stabilizers, that's nonsense. Stabilizers come into play when the body needs to be STABILIZED. That means the body must either be moving through space (i.e. Dips) or attempting to balance itself. (i.e. Incline DB presses). When your back is braced on a flat bench, there's virtually no stabilizer action. That's why benching blows out so many shoulders. You're forced into one position and the shoulders take the brunt of stress and eventual damage. Soner or later, it'll get you.
 
All41 posted: or B. that you cant throw 2 much on...

Thats the kind of mentality that gives bench press a bad name. I've seen guys that walk into the gym, take off their jacket, load the plates on the bench, proceed to do 6-7 sets w/ no warmups or stretches, and then leave. Give me a break. I think bench presses can be a very crucial part(part, not the whole thing) of a chest/shoulder/tri routine. It's a compound movement. No one ever said that deadlifts were no good b/c they didn't focus only on your back. Same w/ bench, you get the added benefit of a great tri w/o.

My chest w/o
Flat Bench 3-4x8-10
Incline Db Bench 3-4x8-10
Cable Crossover or Flyes 3x12-15
 
HighIntensity said:
if in the year 2003 I need to explain the theory behind more then 52 growth periods a year for your chest then were all in trouble.

Are you saying 3 chest exercises 3 times a week or 1 chest exercise 3 times a week? Can you please clarify?

Right now I'm working every body part 3 times every 8 days. Of course that is 1 exercise per bodypart. That is NOT overtraining. It is only maximiznig your growth periods.

Here is a quote from doggcrapp:

You can train in a way so you can train chest 3 times every nine days and you will recover and grow faster than ever. If you train chest 3 times in 9 days you are now doing chest roughly 136 times a year! So instead of 52 growth phases you are now getting 136 growth phases a year. I personally would rather grow 136 times a year than 52. At a hypothetical 1/64th of an inch per workout you are now at 136/64 (or roughly 2.1 inches of thickness). So now your growing at roughly 2 and a half times as fast as normal people who are doing modern day workouts are. Most people train chest with 3 to 4 exercises and wait the 7-9 days to recover and that is one growth phase. I use the same 3 to 4 exercises but do chest 3 times during those 9 days and get 3 growth phases. Everyone knows a muscle either contracts or doesnt--you cannot isolate a certain part of it (you can get into positions that present better mechanical advantages though that put a focus on certain deep muscle fibers)--for example incline presses vs flat presses. One huge mistake beginning bodybuilders make is they have a "must" principle instilled in them. They feel they "must" do this exercise and that exercise and this many sets or they wont grow
 
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Nelson Montana said:
No one ever said benching wouldn't work. It just doesn't work as well or as safely as other movements.

As far as benching being good for the stabilizers, that's nonsense. Stabilizers come into play when the body needs to be STABILIZED. That means the body must either be moving through space (i.e. Dips) or attempting to balance itself. (i.e. Incline DB presses). When your back is braced on a flat bench, there's virtually no stabilizer action. That's why benching blows out so many shoulders. You're forced into one position and the shoulders take the brunt of stress and eventual damage. Soner or later, it'll get you.

How is it that your back is somehow more "braced" on a flat bench than on an incline?
 
Nelson Montana said:
No one ever said benching wouldn't work. It just doesn't work as well or as safely as other movements.

As far as benching being good for the stabilizers, that's nonsense. Stabilizers come into play when the body needs to be STABILIZED. That means the body must either be moving through space (i.e. Dips) or attempting to balance itself. (i.e. Incline DB presses). When your back is braced on a flat bench, there's virtually no stabilizer action. That's why benching blows out so many shoulders. You're forced into one position and the shoulders take the brunt of stress and eventual damage. Soner or later, it'll get you.

Thats a good explanation Nelson. I always new flat bench was bad on shoulders but i never knew quite why. Thanks for explaining that. Anyways i only flat bench rarely anymore. Do all wider grip inclines dums/bar and deep flys to make me wider. Peace.
 
You can say that there are other chest exercises as good as bb bench press... hell, you can even say that bb bench press is not the best exercise for building pecs- but to say that the bp is pointless and outdated is unfounded and untrue.
 
I would like to see nelson's comments on dograps quote above :)
 
Flat BB bench gives my rotator cuffs fits so I avoid it. I do heavy dips, incline and flat flys. It seems that using DB's wherever possible causes the least amount problems for me.
 
Spectre said:
I wouldn't say pointless, maybe over emphasized.
>>
The comment is a little too general, it's highly dependant on goals and the person.
Ditto.
Originally posted by Lift Chief
You can say that there are other chest exercises as good as bb bench press... hell, you can even say that bb bench press is not the best exercise for building pecs- but to say that the bp is pointless and outdated is unfounded and untrue.
Ditto again.

Like I said in the other thread, I personally think the bench press is an inferior exercise and downright harmful for many people. However, it's certainly not worthless.


Regarding the inherent dangers of the move, here's a short article from Fred Hatfield regarding the bench press. (I'd like to test the "little patented gizmo" he describes.)

BENCH PRESS
Your pectoral muscles ("called "pecs") are developed with bench presses. It's potentially dangerous, so have a spotter close by at all times. NEVER bench press alone! Have your spotter help you lift the bar out of the uprights and to a position directly over your chest. Lower the weight to your chest and press it back up to arms' length again. Then, after performing the required number of reps, have the spotter assist you in placing the bar back on the uprights. You can emphasize your "pecs" more if your elbows are away from your sides (perpendicular to your torso) during the movement, and your front deltoids more if your elbows are kept close to your sides during the movement.

Much of the danger inherent in this exercise can be eliminated by using a "Monolift" machine. This new device allows you to position the bar directly over your chest BEFORE you unrack the bar. While bench pressing, special spotting platforms ensure that, should the bar be dropped accidentally or should you miss the lift, the weight will not come down on you. Then, rather than your training partner helping you rack the bar, he rotates the cradle hooks under the bar while it's still held over your chest.

There are two particularly troublesome techniques I see all too often among bench pressers. One is the dangerous practice of using a thumbless grip. The notion that a thumbless grip will somehow alter the angle or quality of stress you're delivering to your pecs is outrageously dumb. Keep your thumbs around the bar!

The second practice is just as outrageous. I've heard benchers say that by keeping your feet off the floor -- suspended over the bench or resting on the bench -- somehow improves the isolation of the pecs and therefore the adaptive overload being delivered to your pecs. The truth is that while your feet are off the floor, you're always slightly off balance on the narrow bench you're lying on, and various stabilizer muscles are attempting to keep you from falling off the bench. This superfluous muscular activity is detracting from the stress you can deliver to the pecs. It is certainly NOT improving it! Besides, being off balance while a heavy weight is hovering over your face and throat is downright asking for trouble!

But these two troublesome techniques pale in their potential for disaster in comparison to the design of the bench itself! Consider: Lying on your back with 300-400 or more pounds in your hands pressing your scapulae into the flat bench beneath. You lower the bar to your chest. But the scapulae are pinned to the bench and cannot slide inwards as you lower the bar. And neither can they slide outward as you raise the bar off your chest. This is not good! It causes undue stress on the tendons of the long heads of your biceps. The results?
· Nagging long-lasting pain from biceps tendinitis
· You can’t lift as much
· Far less strength is developed
· Poor sports performance.

On top of that, all benches are made to be 16 or more inches off the ground. Just because the rules of powerlifting dictate it. This is downright dangerous for shorter athletes who have to go into spinal hyperextension in order to keep their feet flat on the ground for better stability. The results?
· low back trauma
· less stability during training and therefore greater exposure to injury and less weight being lifted
· poor sports performance, or (worse)
· ruined sports career from unnecessary injury

Now picture this: Same weight, same bench. But with a little patented gizmo built into the bench that allows your scapulae to slide in as you lower the bar, and back out as you press it back upward. This is how Mother Nature intended for your shoulder girdle to operate. The results?
· Far less chance of biceps tendinitis
· 10 percent more weight lifted
· greater strength is developed
· no unnecessary trauma to the lumbar spine
· better sports performance, not only because you’re stronger but because you’re healthier!

You just won’t believe it until you’ve experienced it! You and your clients are gonna LOVE it!

DUMBBELL BENCH PRESS
I favor dumbbell bench presses over benching with a bar because you can achieve greater adaptive stress with dumbbells. Dumbbells will tend to force you to keep your upper arms perpendicular to your torso while lowering them. Many benchers will allow their elbows to drift inward toward their sides while using a straight bar. This happens because there's a natural tendency to use the anterior (frontal) deltoids to assist in moving the bar, thereby robbing the pecs of some stress.

Also, dumbbells allow you to employ a technique that will improve the adaptive stress being delivered to your pecs even more. By carefully (under total control) allowing the dumbbells to drift slightly off balance toward the outside, you will have to "fight" harder to raise them. This controlled outward drift allows you to use superior weight while getting the same benefits afforded by regular flyes. Regular flyes are done with very light weights, whereas modified dumbbell benches employ far heavier weight. Again, here's a little technique that tends to improve the quality of adaptive stress.
 
FreakMonster said:


Are you saying 3 chest exercises 3 times a week or 1 chest exercise 3 times a week? Can you please clarify?

Right now I'm working every body part 3 times every 8 days. Of course that is 1 exercise per bodypart. That is NOT overtraining. It is only maximiznig your growth periods.

Here is a quote from doggcrapp:


As I aid early thats 3 chest exercises per week = 12 sets. And yes it is the same thinking as Doggcrap.
 
Bench pressing seems to be a good compound movement, meaning it hits shoulders tris and chest all decently, but when the bar hits my chest it still would have a few more inches to go before i felt it really working my chest. When doing incline the stretch is much greater and my chest feels like it is the main muscle working for a greater period of time during the rep. I am also 6'3 with long arms, which may have something to do with it also. I did build my foundation in my youth doing flat benches, just as i am sure about everyone else who ever picked up a weight as a teen did.
 
Did I say worthless? It is pointless. IE. I can cause more harm then good. You never have to touch BB bench for a nice chest, there for it is imop pointless.
 
well which is worse in terms of causing injury, lugging around heavy, large and akward dubmells into position and dropping them on the floor or doing barbell bench presses?
 
HighIntensity said:
Did I say worthless? It is pointless. IE. I can cause more harm then good. You never have to touch BB bench for a nice chest, there for it is imop pointless.

wait a minute.....I'm not a bb bench defender, but.....you don't have to stick your head up a bulls ass to have a good steak either (wtf?? I'm trying to remember that line from Tommy Boy when he is trying to sell that guy brake pads :D )........you don't have to rely on any one particular exercise to build a good chest...you could insert any chest exercise into your above statement and it would still be applicable.........but, I still agree, most advanced bb'rs move on from flat bench it seems.......:fro:
 
Its obvious who the winner is on this thread, the 50 people who like the BENCH PRESS. I see some of nelsons and high intensitys points, but the fact is i used to only do dumbbells because i was embarrassed of a low bench, but when i finally got my ass on the bench and started using some WEIGHT, thats when my chest started to grow. Yes, it can be dangerous, but thats why i never recommend anyone to go below 4 reps, myself i stay in the 6-10 rep range. Maybe some people have better workouts from dumbbells, but i think the majority think bench is key for mass. I do do incline benches first in my routine, believing upper chest is harder to develop than lower, and a good upper chest leads to much better looking set of pecs. I do dumbbells on occasion, but my mainstay is barbell movements and flys for chest.-WULF
 
And amen nature boy, getting 120-150lb dumbbells into position is one of the most dangerous things in the gym, not to mention, personally, dummbells hurt my shoulders worse than barbells.-WULF
 
DB inclnes are better for 3 reasons.

1...The center of gravity is different. Because the weight is more overhead, the torso is abdorbing the gravitational pull as opposed to lying flat where the majority of stress is on the anterior deltoid.

2...Less weight can be handled on an incline which equates to a lesser chance of undue strain.

3...Dumbells require balance (stimulating the stabilizers) whereas a barbell keeps you fixed in one position. (Incresing stress to the rotator cuff)

Dogcraps comments are cutting edge -- for 1990. True, a muscle can only contract in one direction. In other words, there's no such thing as a "lower" bicep. But the chest is made up of hundreds of fastwitch muscle fibers and as anyone who has done an all "incline " or "decline" workout can attest from soreness the next day, you'll feel more on the top or bottom of their pecs respectively.

As far as more workouts creating more growth spurts, it's valid but arguable. I think that may work for a while, but everyone's recovery and growth ability is different.
I believe this technique is strictly for highly enhanced BB's.

I do agree that people think they must do specific exercises. Most people do too many pointless exercises and ignore some damn effective ones.
 
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Nelson Montana said:
...Most people do too many pointless exercises and ignore some damn effective ones.

Oh man you're not kidding. The stuff I see at my gym sometimes is downright laughable! :eek2: :lmao:
 
HighIntensity said:
but he sayd dips are the most important...I say

Dips

Incline DB press

Decline DB press


these are the only chest exercises you will ever need in life. The key is hitting the chest three times a week with rest pauses HIT training. 4 sets min. a day.

aren't you a personal trainer? how can you generalize and say that this is the best for everyone? i've found that i can move the most weight on barbell, just cause i don't have to worry about all the stabilization issues. and in order to build the biggest foundation, your chest needs to see high poundages. and the only way to move 450 lbs, is with barbells, they dont' make no 225 lbs dumbells, and if they did, you'd have to waste half your energy with bullshit like getting them into position before you could even start. don't get me wrong, i do dumbells. but workouts where i used all dumbells, 150 lb dumbells on flat, 140's on incline, etc, have always sucked. the only way i can get thoroughly sore is by doing a heavy barbell for at least one exercise, whether it's incline, flat or decline. then i move onto dumbells and flies once i've exposed my chest to extreme poundages.
 
Yeah, most of the experienced bros on this board are doing great. much of what is being discussed here is picking down to the finest degree of separation. i think a great set of pecs can be built with many exercises including all of the ones mentioned above. i have just been sharing my personal experiences, not bashing high intensity or nelson they are very knowledgable bros.-WULF
 
I believe the biggest mistake most newbies make is putting too much effort into chest training. Well, not just newbies but alot of people. Personally I would rather spend more time building a set of wide shoulders and a thick back.
 
Absolutely bigdelt69-I see so many guys with the rounded shoulder thing going on. Very few with a nice back, or much thickness there as well. A nice back makes the man! So many guys spend way too much time on chest or pushing movements and way too little on the pulling ones. I think a lot of people don't know how much a strong back, lats in particular contribute to a good bench.-valerie
 
HighIntensity said:
Did I say worthless? It is pointless. IE. I can cause more harm then good. You never have to touch BB bench for a nice chest, there for it is imop pointless.

What is your suggestion for a chest workout? I honestly am starting to feel some pain in my right shoulder due to heavy flat benches! :bawling: but, My chest lacks the outer-peck-round development, but it is big and thick however.

I'm guessing Dips, Incline Dumbbell, flat flyes. ?
 
Re: Re: Nelson is correct, BB bench is pointless and outdated.

Keep it beefy said:


aren't you a personal trainer? how can you generalize and say that this is the best for everyone? i've found that i can move the most weight on barbell, just cause i don't have to worry about all the stabilization issues. and in order to build the biggest foundation, your chest needs to see high poundages. and the only way to move 450 lbs, is with barbells, they dont' make no 225 lbs dumbells, and if they did, you'd have to waste half your energy with bullshit like getting them into position before you could even start. don't get me wrong, i do dumbells. but workouts where i used all dumbells, 150 lb dumbells on flat, 140's on incline, etc, have always sucked. the only way i can get thoroughly sore is by doing a heavy barbell for at least one exercise, whether it's incline, flat or decline. then i move onto dumbells and flies once i've exposed my chest to extreme poundages.

yes I am a PT, and no you don't need BB bench for a good chest. Did I stutter somewhere? Try Doggcrapps routine with rest pauses for dbs and tell me if you feel the pump.
 
You guys make me laugh. Declines and dips both hit your lower pecs..you want that sag look? Do you damn bench..and inclines..quit whining...? Has anyone seen Vince Gironda? You want to look that that puss?
 
HighIntensity said:
Did I say worthless?
No, Nelson did.
HighIntensity said:
It is pointless.
I believe it has it's place.
HighIntensity said:
IE. I can cause more harm then good.
So can dips.
HighIntensity said:
You never have to touch BB bench for a nice chest, there for it is imop pointless.
There is no single exercise you "have to touch" for a nice chest. By your logic, would this mean each and every chest exercise is pointless?

IMO, benching is by far not the best move. It is not a necessary move. But it in not a pointless move.
 
FreakMonster said:


Are you saying 3 chest exercises 3 times a week or 1 chest exercise 3 times a week? Can you please clarify?

Right now I'm working every body part 3 times every 8 days. Of course that is 1 exercise per bodypart. That is NOT overtraining. It is only maximiznig your growth periods.

Here is a quote from doggcrapp:


You feel you get stronger from week to week training this way? I couldn't make it to the gym 6 times a week if I wanted to..
 
I agree that the bench may be worthless to some, yet the most important exercise to another person...

For instance, if you are interested in developing functional strength to some degree in additon to building size.. and it would also be nice to be able to CONTINUE building that size and functional strength w/out being sidelined with injuries.. then perhaps, you may very well leave the flat bench off of your routine..

However.. If your goal is simply "increase one rep max on flat barbell bench," well then this exercise becomes important to you.. Especially if you are one of those guys that hasn't figured it out yet that chicks at the bar couldn't give a rat's ass how much some muscle head says he benches..

Dream on, Nelson.. I got flamed to hell and back some time ago when I said that 'behind the neck lat pulldowns' and "palms-up triceps cable extensions (push downs)" are worthless exercises..

I'm far from one of these exercise phys guys who can, not only NAME each muscle known to man, but also pronounce it correctly.. But as illinformed as I may be, I still shit my pants from time to time when reading about some of these crack-pipe 'theories" encountered here..

Andy
 
I've been bodybuilding (or trying to) for about 6 years and it's safe to say that I know jack shit.... I'm learning more every day, but I'm no expert. However....

.... I'm sick of blanket statements about things that work and don't work for everyone. I know a guy back in my hometown who has quads which rival Tom Platz (I kid you not.... and yes, he is on juice if that matters) but he's never done a single squat in his life. He did it all with leg presses and leg extensions. So to say that you'll never get big without squats isn't true. It might be true for 99.99% of the population who don't have amazing genetics like this particular guy, but certainly not true for EVERYONE.

Like people say, no exercise is POINTLESS or USELESS. It depends on each individual, form, weight, goals, genetics and the rest of the training regime.

There are thousands of guys who have safely built incredible pecs with flat bench press, but who saw little or no results with dumbbells. Or people like myself who have never felt a pinch of pain doing flat bench, but find that dips rip my shoulders apart regardless of how I try to execute the movement.

I'd be a much happier person if the bodybuilding community would lose the obsession with blanket statements and generalisations.
 
DanielBishop said:
I've been bodybuilding (or trying to) for about 6 years and it's safe to say that I know jack shit.... I'm learning more every day, but I'm no expert. However....

.... I'm sick of blanket statements about things that work and don't work for everyone. I know a guy back in my hometown who has quads which rival Tom Platz (I kid you not.... and yes, he is on juice if that matters) but he's never done a single squat in his life. He did it all with leg presses and leg extensions. So to say that you'll never get big without squats isn't true. It might be true for 99.99% of the population who don't have amazing genetics like this particular guy, but certainly not true for EVERYONE.

Like people say, no exercise is POINTLESS or USELESS. It depends on each individual, form, weight, goals, genetics and the rest of the training regime.

There are thousands of guys who have safely built incredible pecs with flat bench press, but who saw little or no results with dumbbells. Or people like myself who have never felt a pinch of pain doing flat bench, but find that dips rip my shoulders apart regardless of how I try to execute the movement.

I'd be a much happier person if the bodybuilding community would lose the obsession with blanket statements and generalisations.

I agree with most everything you said..

I agree that the statement "flat bench is worthless" is indeed a blanket statement that does not apply to everyone..

However, I will stand up and say, until the sun comes down, that physiologically INCORRECT exercises (such as behind-the-neck lat pulls) are indeed worthless, unless it comes down to either this movement or nothing as far as back training...

As far as POINTLESS exercises go, palms-up triceps push downs are indeed a false stretch of the "I know my body" imagination BBers sometimes have..

So I think blanket statements can be carefully and accurately used in BBing.. Not with something that has at least SOME physiological merit such as flat bench.. but certainly for some of this other bizzare garbage I've seen that's either flat out incorrect, dangerous, both, or just funny looking.
 
Forgot to mention...

Along the lines of "worthless", "incorrect", or "stupid looking,"

Be careful offering friendly advice to the guy who makes triceps cable pushdowns look like a chest, shoulder, AND triceps (sometimes other muscle groups thrown in as well) workout...

He may very well be training for an upcoming tire pumping competition.

Andy
 
Andy: Personnally, I found pressdowns behind the back with the bar that allows the hands to face each other works quite well. It isn't a mass builder like rows or deads, but it hits the lats at a good angle if you do them correctly.

So yes, everyone is different and perhaps "worthless" is too strong of a word. But I maintain, the bench press is the cause for more injuries than any other movement.

spatts: You are correct. In the technical sense, the serratus, rhomboids, and even the trapezius and erector spinae come into play when benchig since they stabilize the pushing muscles. In that regard, however, it can be said that ANY exercise involves the stabilizers. I was talking more in terms of the fibers that don't come into play when isolatng a muscle.
 
Nelson Montana said:
So yes, everyone is different and perhaps "worthless" is too strong of a word. But I maintain, the bench press is the cause for more injuries than any other movement.
I can feel you on this. However, like I said before, one reason for this is the sheer volume of lifters who do the bench press. Add to that the sheer volume of lifters who practice the move with bad form. A great deal of people fail to learn and assess real technique for the move. Hey, what could be more cut and dry than laying on your back and pushing up right? Wrong.



Anyone read the Hatfield article I posted? I'd be interested to see the little benching gizmo he describes.
 
this is a real chest workout:

barbell benchpress
dumbell benchpress
incline dumbell press
incline dumbell flyes
hammer strength decline press
cable crosses
pec decs
dumbell flyes
decline flyes
dips
bottom to top chest cables or b-t chest dumbells
incline close grip dumbells for chest
 
CN1 said:
this is a real chest workout:

barbell benchpress
dumbell benchpress
incline dumbell press
incline dumbell flyes
hammer strength decline press
cable crosses
pec decs
dumbell flyes
decline flyes
dips
bottom to top chest cables or b-t chest dumbells
incline close grip dumbells for chest

:confused: One set of each (?)
 
CN1 said:
this is a real chest workout:

barbell benchpress
dumbell benchpress
incline dumbell press
incline dumbell flyes
hammer strength decline press
cable crosses
pec decs
dumbell flyes
decline flyes
dips
bottom to top chest cables or b-t chest dumbells
incline close grip dumbells for chest

Is this ONE workout? If it is I don't see how you could even remotely make it to the end with a decent amount of weight plus overtraining bigtime.
 
well if you do 2-3 sets on the major lifts, and 1-2 sets on the minor ones you will come out at 25 sets, volume is the key, and you do heavy weight, light weight, negative reps, partial reps, low sets, high sets, supersets, and giant sets!!!!!
 
So Nelson, in order of importance, would you list chest exercises? thanks,

jb



Nelson Montana said:
No one ever said benching wouldn't work. It just doesn't work as well or as safely as other movements.

As far as benching being good for the stabilizers, that's nonsense. Stabilizers come into play when the body needs to be STABILIZED. That means the body must either be moving through space (i.e. Dips) or attempting to balance itself. (i.e. Incline DB presses). When your back is braced on a flat bench, there's virtually no stabilizer action. That's why benching blows out so many shoulders. You're forced into one position and the shoulders take the brunt of stress and eventual damage. Soner or later, it'll get you.
 
If you do 25 sets for chest that means your workout was over 15 sets ago, you just didn't know it.

I believe dips are best, but only if they're performed correctly. (Hunched forward, legs forward, slow deliberate, partial movement)
It isn't so much the exercise, but the intensity put into an exerise that matters. And that doesn't necessarily mean more weight . Intensity can be acheived many ways. The problem with benches is when intensity is obtained, it compromises the shoulders.

Every now and then I'll do a set or two benches, just for varieties sake. But it's no longer an ego move. (Hell, with the weight I use, it's very ego-LESS) Even still, my shoulder gives out before I feel a pump in the chest.

For all you big tough benchers, try this.

Do a set of incline dumbells presses, short of failure at about 10 reps. Then put the dumbells on the floor and place your hands on them, palms back and elbows wide. Then put your feet up on the bench. In this position, do push ups between the bells to failure. (Essentially, a modified dip) Repeat this process with no more than one minute rest in between sets for 6 sets. Then get back to me and honestly say, you didn't hit your chest.



Or you can do 25 sets if you're so inclined.
 
Wouldn't the effectiveness of the bench be based on your genetic predisposition.......I would think that it would be relative to your bio-acromial width and the insertion points of your muscles/tendons....
 
Perhaps i subscribe to a different doctrine....but variety and the actual amount worked on my chest, versus the excercises used, is much more important to me. If it gives me a burn, than that excercise will stick around for a while until i feel the need to replace it.

I might do flatbench for 3 months and than leave it for 3 months and replace it with something else. Saying that you should NEVER do flatbench because it is useless limits the different excersises that you can use in your arsenal for a muscular build.


My 2 cc's
 
Nelson Montana said:


For all you big tough benchers, try this.

Do a set of incline dumbells presses, short of failure at about 10 reps. Then put the dumbells on the floor and place your hands on them, palms back and elbows wide. Then put your feet up on the bench. In this position, do push ups between the bells to failure. (Essentially, a modified dip) Repeat this process with no more than one minute rest in between sets for 6 sets. Then get back to me and honestly say, you didn't hit your chest.
This is an awsome move. I'm trying to make these a habit, but talk about an ego crusher... :D
 
hey nelson montana why dont you bring your candy ass over to golds gym in venice and when I bench 225 for 50 reps then drop it and immediately pick up some 140lb dumbells and rep them, lets see what bullshit you got to say!!!!!!! Everyone is different and if you listen to alot of experienced bodybuilders and pros, they will tell you any workout should consits of 20-25 sets!!!!! Volume is the key to size, mass, strength, rips, hardness, symmetry, and overall great physique!!!! Just like tom prince told one guy, volume is the key!!!!! When alot of you people on here stop listening to dumbasses who think they know everything and just go in the gym and find out what works for yourselves you will be much better off!!!!!!
 
You guys are all nuts.

If flat bench hurts your shoulders, don't do them.

If they don't bother your shoulders, why not do them?

What is so tough about this?
 
CN1 said:
Everyone is different and if you listen to alot of experienced bodybuilders and pros, they will tell you any workout should consits of 20-25 sets!!!!!
You are correct - everyone is different. This is why you must realize that a good many of us are not well suited, be it due to our current level of training or be it genetics, to such high volume.

I think it was Platz who made a comment regarding volume and how at his level of adaptation (very high) he felt he needed around 20 sets at a given intensity just to keep his legs at their particular stage of development. However, he said that to advise most anyone at a lower stage of development to use the same volume and intensity was absurd.
 
Nelson Montana said:

Dogcraps comments are cutting edge -- for 1990. True, a muscle can only contract in one direction. In other words, there's no such thing as a "lower" bicep. But the chest is made up of hundreds of fastwitch muscle fibers and as anyone who has done an all "incline " or "decline" workout can attest from soreness the next day, you'll feel more on the top or bottom of their pecs respectively.

As far as more workouts creating more growth spurts, it's valid but arguable. I think that may work for a while, but everyone's recovery and growth ability is different.
I believe this technique is strictly for highly enhanced BB's.

First of all, DC recommends 3 chest sessions every 2 weeks (i.e. monday friday wed). Not 3 every one week. He would instantly claim "overtraining" as would any sane bodybuilder.

Everyone's recovery is different? Duh. That's why you space out your workouts optimally. For the average person it's the monday wed friday schedule. A VERY SMALL margin can do monday tueday thursday friday. And some people require less frequency.

I'm not sure what you mean by "growth ability." Some people grow faster than others, obviously, but that doesn't mean that the mechanisms for growth are changed. Generally, when you become the strongest bodybuilder you can be, you'll have become the largest you can be. Strength gains equate to size gains, assuming you're eating enough (2x BW protein, lots of good fats, etc)

As for DC's technique being for strictly enhanced BBs, that's bullshit! I have put on fucking 35 pounds in the last 5-6 months thanks to him. And most of the guys he trains are CLEAN, and making similar if not better gains. There's so many people that are essentially saying they wouldn't be huge if it weren't for him.

I have yet to see someone on this board say "I put on 10-20 pounds in 8 weeks thanks to Nelson Montana's training methods."
 
Cocerning the big claims those of you claim to have made...

There will always be certain individuals who respond better than others. And those individuals tend to be the type who can tolerate a lot of volume. It sounds great to say, so and so got big doing 25 sets but that doesn't mean everyone will react as well. Fuck, I bet there's guys on this board who've worked ever bit as hard as the pros and still look mediocre. Genetics. Genetics, Genetics.

35 pounds of muscle in 6 months with absolutely no juice? After being an advanced athlete and not progessing previously? Aren't you exagerating a little bit?

I've had hundreds of people write to me to say they've made progress with my methods when nothing else worked. If you're benching 225 for 50 reps, you may not need to hear what I have to say. But if you're benching 225 or 5 reps, it'll do you a lot of good.

Tom Platz is a perfect example. All through the 90's he talking about obliterating the muscles in order to grow. But how much did Tom grow from the age of 39 to 49? Not one bit. Tom is just insane.

The truth is, the older you get and the more established your muscle is, the LESS you need to train. Beating yourself up at that point is just silly. I'm all for occasional high volume workots but you can't live there every workout. Most people's adrenal systems simply can't handle it.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Cocerning the big claims those of you claim to have made...


The truth is, the older you get and the more established your muscle is, the LESS you need to train. Beating yourself up at that point is just silly. I'm all for occasional high volume workots but you can't live there every workout. Most people's adrenal systems simply can't handle it.


What happens if you overload your adrenal system? I think I used to do that. I feel better now doing a lot of sets with only 3-4 reps instead of maxing out on damned near every set.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Tom Platz is a perfect example. All through the 90's he talking about obliterating the muscles in order to grow. But how much did Tom grow from the age of 39 to 49? Not one bit. Tom is just insane.
First, I think we're on or near the same page as far as volume is concerned. That being said, you must realize that Tom has grown more muscle mass than any of us here probably ever will. Nobody could possibly know how much he's grown between the ages of 39 and 49 - he's only 47 - not that it matters much, as he hasn't been competing for some time. I know that he's been teaching full time for about ten years now. He is an advocate of "high volume," but as I said in my post, he admits that an extreme degree of high volume isn't for everybody, and is stupid for many.
 
sergio said:


You feel you get stronger from week to week training this way? I couldn't make it to the gym 6 times a week if I wanted to..

It's not 6 times a week. I work out Tues., Wed., Fri, and Saturday, That's 4 times I work out a week. So if I do chest on Tues. I will do it again on Fri and then the next monday. So basically I'm working my chest 3 times a week.

Or if you don't recover fast you can workout out 3 times a week on Mon., Wed., Fri. Then you would be doing chest Monday, Fri, and then Monday again. So you would be doing chest 3 times in 8 days.
 
I like this thread, so I am gonna bump it. Bench hasn't done much for me so far, I am gonna change to dips and flys to see if my chest will improve.

-sk
 
Nelson Montana said:

The truth is, the older you get and the more established your muscle is, the LESS you need to train. Beating yourself up at that point is just silly. I'm all for occasional high volume workots but you can't live there every workout. Most people's adrenal systems simply can't handle it.

I totally agree Nelson. When I was 22 it wasn't uncommon for me to do 20 sets per body part. Now I am 32 and I weigh 50 pounds more and 8-10 sets is more than sufficient for blasting a body part to hell. Of course, now I can reach maximum intensity a lot faster than when I was younger.

I think older trainees (not that I am ancient but 14 years of training under my belt) actually grow more from less work. I see guys beat the shit out of themselves with 3 hour work-outs and they look like hell.
 
Nelson Montana said:
No one ever said benching wouldn't work. It just doesn't work as well or as safely as other movements.

As far as benching being good for the stabilizers, that's nonsense. Stabilizers come into play when the body needs to be STABILIZED. That means the body must either be moving through space (i.e. Dips) or attempting to balance itself. (i.e. Incline DB presses). When your back is braced on a flat bench, there's virtually no stabilizer action. That's why benching blows out so many shoulders. You're forced into one position and the shoulders take the brunt of stress and eventual damage. Soner or later, it'll get you.

BB bench pressing with BAD form is unsafe. BB benching with GOOD form is a safe an any excercise out there.

This is not directed soley at you, Nelson. It's directed to everyone that is saying the same thing. You just happen to say it first, so I replied to your post.


Joker
 
Dial_tone said:
I never liked dips, always got too much delt and tricep.

Dips make my shoulders feel like they are going to pop out and tear. :( I get shoulder pains doing flat bench sometimes, and wrist pains as well. I have small weak bones, and sometimes I have to limit the weight according to my wrists, not my strength. Sucks.......
 
JOKER47 said:


BB bench pressing with BAD form is unsafe. BB benching with GOOD form is a safe an any excercise out there.

This is not directed soley at you, Nelson. It's directed to everyone that is saying the same thing. You just happen to say it first, so I replied to your post.


Joker
Good post. I agree totaly.

I've been weight training for 15+ years and always rotate flat barbell bench into my workouts. Maybe there are better ways of building a good chest, but I'm not really building anymore. The flat bench gets me more exciting about working out then any other lift, it's why I train.

Squat

Deadlift

Flat barbell bench press

These are the reasons I go to the gym. Not everyone has the same goals or reasons for what we do. I'm always looking to increase my numbers.

If you want to bench and limit potential shoulder damage go over to the powerlifting forum and read the sticky on the movement. My shoulders are fine, and that's after thousands of reps on the flat bench.
 
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