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Need sleep "so" bad...........

itlnstln

Italian Stallion
Platinum
What do you guys use to help you sleep? (I've tried all the PM's, Nytols, etc) - my lack of sleep is just due to a little stress caused by - I don't even have the strength to type it all, but it's "not" from cycling.............I haven't even started my cycle yet.

I've never had this problem before, but I'm averaging about 2 hours sleep/night for the last 2 weeks. I'm not over-training, but I have been eating clean, stopped drinking (only drank 2 time/week anyway).

I don't know - perhaps this whole post will just look like a rambling mess to everyone when they read it, but I need help my friends.............
 
itlnstln said:
What do you guys use to help you sleep? (I've tried all the PM's, Nytols, etc) - my lack of sleep is just due to a little stress caused by - I don't even have the strength to type it all, but it's "not" from cycling.............I haven't even started my cycle yet.

I've never had this problem before, but I'm averaging about 2 hours sleep/night for the last 2 weeks. I'm not over-training, but I have been eating clean, stopped drinking (only drank 2 time/week anyway).

I don't know - perhaps this whole post will just look like a rambling mess to everyone when they read it, but I need help my friends.............

Ambien is a life save, zolpiderm tartrate is the chemical name, or real close, didn't look it up, but I always keep some on hand.

Indy
 
hammertime_web.jpg
 
indy69camaro said:
Ambien is a life save, zolpiderm tartrate is the chemical name, or real close, didn't look it up, but I always keep some on hand.

Indy

me too. great drug. will lose effectiveness if used too much.

one drawback is it often helps you get to sleep easily but you wake up at 4 or 5 dead tired but can't get back to sleep. think they have new version that solves this problem.

ambien helpful for sleep but the best sleep comes naturally. helps to be all tired at end of day, not keyed up or stressed out. :)
 
let me clear it up - I started lifting about a month ago - (after being off for 4 years due to a bad car accident). During the 4 years, I gained about 80lbs. (from eating delivery, take-out, and drinking 2 or 3 times/week.)

I don't know whether going back to a "clean" lifestyle all at once has causes the stress, but I can't sleep, and 3 doctors said that there's nothing wrong.............

Doesn't make sense to me
 
I have never really had trouble with sleeping (knock on wood) although D-Bol and Tren gave me terrible Insomnia. I don't normally smoke weed but if my appetite is shit or I find myself not being able to sleep, a couple hoots and I'm down for the count. Also, my brother used to have a lot of trouble sleeping when he was a little younger, he took Melatonin and that worked wonders for him.

M18
 
Ambien or Lunesta will give you immediate results for your problem. I use Higher Power ZMA Nightime Formula along with 3mg of melatonin every night and it works great. Not saying that it'll work for you, but that's how things go down for me. Best of luck to you, bro...insomnia is a bitch.
 
Reubsf said:
Ambien or Lunesta will give you immediate results for your problem. I use Higher Power ZMA Nightime Formula along with 3mg of melatonin every night and it works great. Not saying that it'll work for you, but that's how things go down for me. Best of luck to you, bro...insomnia is a bitch.


thanks for the quick replys guys..........

I used to hang out here 24/7 - until the accident - now it's time to straighten everything out again and get back under 300lbs again......I'm 32 now - and it's so much TOUGHER coming back from an injury when you're not a kid anymore.................

Everything's been great, and I've been sticking to a very strict regimine; - all that's left is the f-in sleep.............

I've heard good things about Ambien, - great things, but my doctor/s won't let me "touch" it..................
 
humantarget said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by *MissFit*
Go fuck yourself dude:P
would u like gravy on those tadders:P





Did i "miss" something?

Probably not....................
 
Last edited:
itlnstln said:
thanks for the quick replys guys..........

I used to hang out here 24/7 - until the accident - now it's time to straighten everything out again and get back under 300lbs again......I'm 32 now - and it's so much TOUGHER coming back from an injury when you're not a kid anymore.................

Everything's been great, and I've been sticking to a very strict regimine; - all that's left is the f-in sleep.............

I've heard good things about Ambien, - great things, but my doctor/s won't let me "touch" it..................


Well Ambien tends to be used as a short term fix, but it's no solution. Personal experience with Ambien is that it works great for about 5 days, then you build tolerance and are back at square one. I don't think you can develop a tolerance to ZMA and melatonin...at least I've been taking the two in conjunction for over a year and they still work awesome.
 
glennds said:
me too. great drug. will lose effectiveness if used too much.

one drawback is it often helps you get to sleep easily but you wake up at 4 or 5 dead tired but can't get back to sleep. think they have new version that solves this problem.

ambien helpful for sleep but the best sleep comes naturally. helps to be all tired at end of day, not keyed up or stressed out. :)


Yep, true on all accounts, AmbienCR is the new one, have not tried it though. Supposed to act longer like Lunesta, but I think Lunesta sucks, especially the bad aftertaste you get from it.
 
itlnstln said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by *MissFit*
Go fuck yourself dude:P
would u like gravy on those tadders:P





Did i "miss" something?

Probably not....................


Is there any point to these hammertime posts, with not relevant information whatsoever ?? cause it's frankly irritating and a waste of everyones time and board resources.
 
indy69camaro said:
Is there any point to these hammertime posts, with not relevant information whatsoever ?? cause it's frankly irritating and a waste of everyones time and board resources.



I thought it was just a mistake.............

Is this a "routine" thing?

Too bad
 
ambien is great, however it makes me drowsy when i awake, so i take remeron. it puts me to sleep and i wake up so refreshed. however, i know tux for example is the opposite with these drugs. so it depends on the person. ambien, remeron, and lunestra are all ones i would try and see which works best for you. remeron has saved my life ive never been able to sleep period
 
indy69camaro said:
Is there any point to these hammertime posts, with not relevant information whatsoever ?? cause it's frankly irritating and a waste of everyones time and board resources.

^^^ Wholeheartedly agree!!!
 
okay, I guess I can help out here. Little background. ever since I was about 12, just starting the onset of puberty, I have had a terrible time falling asleep. I can be dead tired and it can take me anywhere up to 20 minutes to an hour to fall asleep. I have taken everything imaginable over the counter, except zma (maybe i should try it! lol), until I visited a doc when I was 32. My sleeping problems, understandibly, grew worse when I started using steroids at the ripe old age of 32. My first doc gave me amitryptilines (old school anti-d) which made me feel groggy. After staying up for 3 hours before finally falling asleep, I changed doctors and he gave me ambien. Ambien finally (FINAAALLLY! after 20 years of not being able to fall asleep) gave me that edge so that I can fall asleep fast. I would sleep a night through and wake up the next day feeling fresh! Move up time to present day (34)... Now when I take ambien, 4-5 hours later, I wake up, and just as the above stated, can't fall asleep unless I chew a 1/4 of the pill without water. I fall right back to sleep for the rest of the night. After a while I grew tired of this until a fellow co-worker complained of the same problem - which she was going back to her doctor to get the medicine changed. Anyhow, I talked to my doc and he explained that the Ambien has such a powerful impact, that it's onset is quick and half-life is 4 hours, that when the medicine drops drastically, the body reacts, and the user wakes up. He gave me Ambien Cr which has a longer half life of 6 hours. Guess when I wake up? Yep, you guessed it, 6 hours! Plus, it's so weak, (12.5 mgs over 6 hours instead of the fully wammy of 10mgs within minutes) I could barely fall asleep on it. Sooo, to finally make a long story shorter, today I went back to his office and the nurses gave me ruffly 20 days of Lunesta.

So, tonight I shall try Lunesta and report back on how I sleep. I promise you , it will be much shorter than this post! lol.

On a side a note, a friend of mine had free samples of Ristoril, which is a benzodiazipine medicine, worked WONDERS. I slept 8 hours straight, more natural feeling than anything else I have ever tried, but I hear that if the person who is taking it, will eventually have to up the dosage over time due to the body getting used to it. Also, if the user stops suddenly, that user might have a stroke! So I never bothered to bring that up to the doc. But I have to admit, that was the sleep I have had in a lonnnngg time. From what I have red, Lunesta doesn't build up a tolerance ..
 
You guys have helped me make up my mind and I know what I need.

Now it's time for the dreaded overseas drug search!!!!!!!!!!


Peace
 
SPARETIRE,

Let me know tomorrow what you think of that after taste. While lunesta does last a little longer, it tastes LIKE SHIT, cant stand that stuff. Ambien is the bomb when used in moderation.

Indy
 
itlnstln said:
I thought it was just a mistake.............

Is this a "routine" thing?

Too bad

Yep seen it in several threads tonight,thought you were post whoring, send me a pm, I have a little extra help for your sleep issue.

Indy-
 
one thing i found out is Ambien is ficking expensive-$70 for 30 pills, screw that. I've always had a sleep disorder since a child.
now i take a benzo when & if i can find them , my doc will only give me a script for 2 refills -20 tabs, then its up to me.

Its a chore laying in bed tossing & turning all night!

RADAR
 
RADAR said:
one thing i found out is Ambien is ficking expensive-$70 for 30 pills, screw that. I've always had a sleep disorder since a child.
now i take a benzo when & if i can find them , my doc will only give me a script for 2 refills -20 tabs, then its up to me.

Its a chore laying in bed tossing & turning all night!

RADAR

You got that right bro, good thing is, now generic ambien is available, cheap by no means, but better than it was.
 
RADAR said:
one thing i found out is Ambien is ficking expensive-$70 for 30 pills, screw that. I've always had a sleep disorder since a child.
now i take a benzo when & if i can find them , my doc will only give me a script for 2 refills -20 tabs, then its up to me.

Its a chore laying in bed tossing & turning all night!

RADAR

find a different doc radar! :) I found that every doctor has his/her own favorite meds as far as sleep meds, antiobiotics, etc.. strange, but true.
 
itlnstln said:
let me clear it up - I started lifting about a month ago - (after being off for 4 years due to a bad car accident). During the 4 years, I gained about 80lbs. (from eating delivery, take-out, and drinking 2 or 3 times/week.)

I don't know whether going back to a "clean" lifestyle all at once has causes the stress, but I can't sleep, and 3 doctors said that there's nothing wrong.............

Doesn't make sense to me

I wonder if you're T levels might be low or estrogen level/activity might be too high? Carrying around 80lbs of extra bodyfat is going impact your hormonal levels, and toss in a lifestyle change on top of that, and you might have a recipe for imbalance.

When you say you're eating clean, what does that mean? Note that there's quite a bit of research which shows that an extremely low-fat diet lowers T serum levels significantly. Did you suddenly move from a high-fat diet to a "no-fat" diet?

FWIW, I'd avoid the Ambien/Lunesta route until an absolute last resort, as you might end up just treating symptoms, and not getting to the underlying cause that will also be impacting your comeback as a lifter. However, I'm pretty OCD, and drugs like this are really bad news for me....so YMMV significantly.
 
MUSTANG_18 said:
I have never really had trouble with sleeping (knock on wood) although D-Bol and Tren gave me terrible Insomnia. I don't normally smoke weed but if my appetite is shit or I find myself not being able to sleep, a couple hoots and I'm down for the count. Also, my brother used to have a lot of trouble sleeping when he was a little younger, he took Melatonin and that worked wonders for him.

M18

The only time Dbol gave me insomnia was when I used it alone. With test, I am fine.

I have had sleep issues too, and ZMA and/or melatonin usually does the trick for me. Anything over the counter made it worse. I am afraid to try prescription stuff like Ambien - to each his own, but I just don't want to go down that road.

Try natural things first...some complex carbs and warm milk before bed, a very dark warm room, new comfortable pillow, maybe a white noise maker like a fan or humdifier, and fucking before you go to sleep works well too.

Good luck,


Bluesman
 
Lunesta Report:

Took 3mgs last night at bed time. I guess I was expecting the extreme onset of the medicine as with ambien. I noticed very little onset, just a tad. But, I did find myself yawning more than usual, so I prepared for bed. I fell asleep real fast, but I woke up a few hours later sweating my ass off due to an incorrect temperature on the heater! fell back to sleep immediately. Woke up again, cuz I had to pee. LOL. (drank too much water before bedtime). Slept 7 hours and when I awoke, it felt natural, real. I'm sure a lot of the interupted sleep was due to the past 6 months of waking up every 4 hours - so maybe just a bad habit! I'm not groggy at all. I'd def. say its much better than the Ambien Cr and Ambien - because it is pretty effective. I still like Ambien due to it's quickness :)

Although, I did notice that bad rust taste in my mouth when I woke up to change the heater settings...but i can live with that..no big deal.

pharmacies? I got no stinkin pharmacies man!

i'm always looking too!
 
phatrr said:
I wonder if you're T levels might be low or estrogen level/activity might be too high? Carrying around 80lbs of extra bodyfat is going impact your hormonal levels, and toss in a lifestyle change on top of that, and you might have a recipe for imbalance.

When you say you're eating clean, what does that mean? Note that there's quite a bit of research which shows that an extremely low-fat diet lowers T serum levels significantly. Did you suddenly move from a high-fat diet to a "no-fat" diet?

FWIW, I'd avoid the Ambien/Lunesta route until an absolute last resort, as you might end up just treating symptoms, and not getting to the underlying cause that will also be impacting your comeback as a lifter. However, I'm pretty OCD, and drugs like this are really bad news for me....so YMMV significantly.


I "was" eating an extrememly high fat diet - my diet now is much lower in fat, but still includes moderate amounts of "healthy" fats; but it is still low-fat.

I eat 6-7 small meals/day
I take CLA 3-times/day
Betagen 3 times/day

as far as fat it comes from the following:
whatever is in my Myoplex original (2-3/day)
whatever is in CLA, and additional Omega-3 I take

I stopped eating red meat and eat only chicken, turkey, and fish.

You know what - as I am writing this I realize that I really "have" overlooked the amount of fat I am getting (never really thought THAT would be a problem)

What do you suggest?


thanks again
 
Should I add more fat to the diet?

Nuts? Olive Oil? or more Carbs?

I'm just trying to get everything right...........
 
Set yourself up with a baseline number of cals (12cal/lb of bodyweight, for example - you might want to drop that to 10cal/lb. Whatever the number, get that baseline established)

Protein: 1g/lb is the typical number

Fat: 15-25% of total cals, primarily coming from unsaturated (olive oil is a great source), and given your history, I'd go with the higher end of the range.

Carbs: 45-55% of total cals - stick to the lower end of the range here.

I wouldn't do anything more radical until you get that baseline established and see how you feel, and how your sleep cycles respond.

Remember, you're putting your body through HUGE changes. It's going to react in different ways.

It's great that you're doing this. Keep up the good work!
 
Be very carefull with Ambien or others as they are very addictive. They can also screw up your GABA receptors and serotinin levels. Are you taking any amphetamines or weight loss drugs? These will contribute to insomnia. You may also be suffering from depression which can manifest itself in insomnia. You may not even think you are depressed but subconsciously you are. For this I can only recommend a therapist. For insomnia try taking Valerian root (found at health food stores) as it works very well, with no sides.

Also, keep in mind if you start using AAS that they can contribute to insomnia. I would get the insomnia under control before using drugs that can exacerbate the situation.
 
Alright - thanks to all your advice (and I do appreciate it "all") - I think I'm ready to "restructure" my diet and *tweak* a couple of other things.

I set up a ECA stack, but I won't TOUCH it while I am having these sleeping problems.

I already see someone for depression,(might as well put it all out there) - and to tell you the truth - I haven't been more positive about things in a LONG time.

after my accident, I literally hit ROCK BOTTOM, - I was out of work, depressed, drinking (not a TON, but enough to damage my psyche), I started smoking, and I was literally just sleeping, eating, or drinking - (sometimes trying all 3 at once)

I've spent the last 6 months just "picking up the pieces", getting my mind straight, - working out again, and just 2 1/2 weeks ago, I jumped in with both feet and changed my whole diet and mind-set.

For a seemingly big-guy (on the outside) - it's tough to admit how much help I have needed during the last year, but now I am comfortable enough with myself to look back on it all and feel "strong", truly strong for how far I've come.

Thanks to people like *you* on this board, I'm looking forward to not only getting back to where I was - but actually ended up bigger and stronger than before.

Peace
 
itlnstln said:
Alright - thanks to all your advice (and I do appreciate it "all") - I think I'm ready to "restructure" my diet and *tweak* a couple of other things.

I set up a ECA stack, but I won't TOUCH it while I am having these sleeping problems.

I already see someone for depression,(might as well put it all out there) - and to tell you the truth - I haven't been more positive about things in a LONG time.

after my accident, I literally hit ROCK BOTTOM, - I was out of work, depressed, drinking (not a TON, but enough to damage my psyche), I started smoking, and I was literally just sleeping, eating, or drinking - (sometimes trying all 3 at once)

I've spent the last 6 months just "picking up the pieces", getting my mind straight, - working out again, and just 2 1/2 weeks ago, I jumped in with both feet and changed my whole diet and mind-set.

For a seemingly big-guy (on the outside) - it's tough to admit how much help I have needed during the last year, but now I am comfortable enough with myself to look back on it all and feel "strong", truly strong for how far I've come.

Thanks to people like *you* on this board, I'm looking forward to not only getting back to where I was - but actually ended up bigger and stronger than before.

Peace



Are you taking SSRI's? If so you may want to start curbing your intake and eventually break it off. Drugs such as Lexapro, etc. are also very addictive and are very hard to break loose from. Some studies show addictive behavior after only a month or so of taking SSRI's. The pharm companies, IMO, are the same as crack dealers.
 
itlnstln said:
What do you guys use to help you sleep? (I've tried all the PM's, Nytols, etc) - my lack of sleep is just due to a little stress caused by - I don't even have the strength to type it all, but it's "not" from cycling.............I haven't even started my cycle yet.

I've never had this problem before, but I'm averaging about 2 hours sleep/night for the last 2 weeks. I'm not over-training, but I have been eating clean, stopped drinking (only drank 2 time/week anyway).

I don't know - perhaps this whole post will just look like a rambling mess to everyone when they read it, but I need help my friends.............
klonopin
 
Similar thing happened to me and at one point I went up to 297lbs or (at 5'8.5)

It wasn't pretty! turns out I had a very severe case of obstructive sleep apnea... and I wouldn't get much sleep during the night. That may be a problem you have, look into it, they can usually tell easily once teh tests are done.

Also, you may be consuming too much caffeine. Also, make sure you stop eating before going to bed, stop food intake by 9pm (if I need something before I go to bed I will have low carb grow by biotest, 20g of protein, barely any carbs per scoop)
 
Sinis said:
Are you taking SSRI's? If so you may want to start curbing your intake and eventually break it off. Drugs such as Lexapro, etc. are also very addictive and are very hard to break loose from. Some studies show addictive behavior after only a month or so of taking SSRI's. The pharm companies, IMO, are the same as crack dealers.


I do take an SSRI (Zoloft) along with Buspirone. - but I've been taking them for a WHILE now - it's the first thing I did when I realized how bad things have gotten.

I've never been a "great" sleeper, (up all night maybe once a month) - until I started "this" regimine.............I've eated like this before, but I was never , in my life, as FAT as I was/am, so I think the diet this time has really shocked the body.
 
itlnstln said:
I do take an SSRI (Zoloft) along with Buspirone. - but I've been taking them for a WHILE now - it's the first thing I did when I realized how bad things have gotten.

I've never been a "great" sleeper, (up all night maybe once a month) - until I started "this" regimine.............I've eated like this before, but I was never , in my life, as FAT as I was/am, so I think the diet this time has really shocked the body.


Long-Term Side Effects Surface With SSRIs

Author: Carl Sherman, Contributing Writer

[Clinical Psychiatry News 26(5):1, 1998. © 1998 International Medical News
Group.]



Insomnia, weight gain, sexual dysfunction emerge as problems
affecting compliance.


NEW YORK -- Physicians are seeing long-term side effects with selective
serotonin reuptake inhibitors far in excess of what was expected from clinical trial
data, Dr. Norman Sussman said at a psychopharmacology update sponsored by
New York University.

If these particular side effects -- sleep disturbances, sexual dysfunction, and weight
gain -- are problematic for patients, one of the newer non-SSRI antidepressants
may be a better choice, he said. Of course, these drugs have their own particular
side effect profiles.

When SSRIs first appeared a decade ago, their favorable side effect profile was a
key selling point. They were clearly safer and easier to use than tricyclics and
monoamine oxidase inhibitors and, above all, better tolerated by patients.

But experience has shown that some side effects are more common and problematic
than initially expected, said Dr. Sussman, director of the psychopharmacology
research and consultation service at Bellevue Hospital Center in New York.

Depression is a chronic, recurrent disorder, so long-term side effects actually may
be more important than acute ones in terms of patient compliance and quality of life,
and this has come to guide Dr. Sussman's choice of antidepressants.

Early-onset side effects may be responsible for rapid withdrawals from treatment,
but some of the most troubling of these -- nausea, diarrhea, headache, and agitation
-- will remit in 2-3 weeks.

A knottier problem is adverse effects that persist as long as the patient takes the
medication, such as sexual dysfunction and sleep disturbances. Also particularly
troubling are those, like weight gain, that don't even develop until late in treatment.

"These are the ones that are not in the insert, which is based on short-term studies,"
Dr. Sussman said.

Significant insomnia affects 15%-20% of patients taking SSRIs, twice the rate with
placebo.
Polysomnography has consistently found that these drugs cause activation
during the night: In addition to insomnia, bruxism, sweating, and periodic limb
movement are common. Vivid dreams and nightmares also occur. With ongoing
treatment, increasing numbers of patients report lethargy and fatigue, he said.

"There are a lot of data showing that people who sleep poorly are more likely to
relapse and that suicide risk is higher," he said.

Sleep problems often require concurrent medication: 22%-34% of patients taking
SSRIs also are prescribed sedatives or hypnotics, Dr. Sussman said.

Sexual dysfunctions are among the most distressing SSRI side effects. Decreased
libido and delayed or absent orgasm are the best known, but there are others, such
as the "yawning-excitement syndrome." Patients experience sexual arousal when
they yawn, often progressing to orgasm. "This is probably underreported. Patients
often say, 'If you hadn't asked me, I wouldn't have mentioned it,'" he said.

Perhaps the most unexpected SSRI-related problem to emerge has been weight
gain, which often begins only after several months of therapy. This side effect has not
been shown to be frequent or severe in controlled studies but has been reported
occur in 18%-50% of patients in some open-label studies.

Because this runs counter to the image of the drug, many physicians and patients are
unprepared to deal with it. "Some physicians tell patients, 'I can't understand why
you're gaining weight -- you're on an SSRI,'" Dr. Sussman said.

Greg Keuterman, a spokesman for Eli Lilly & Co., manufacturer of Prozac
(fluoxetine), declined to comment except to point out that "this is anecdotal
evidence."

"We're approved by the FDA for long-term treatment of depression," he added.

Pfizer Inc., the maker of Zoloft (sertraline), and SmithKline Beecham
Pharmaceuticals, the maker of Paxil (paroxetine), did not respond to requests for
comment.

These observations do contrast with what the clinical trials submitted to the Food
and Drug Administration by pharmaceutical companies show, Dr. Sussman said. It
would be nice if these long-term side effects were studied in clinical trials comparing
different antidepressants.

Some of the newer antidepressants are less likely to cause the types of long-term
problems that lead patients to discontinue SSRIs, he said.

Of course, it is possible that unexpected side effects will emerge over the long term
with these antidepressants as well, Dr. Sussman said.

With venlafaxine (Effexor), "the side effects are the same as with SSRIs: insomnia,
somnolence, lethargy and fatigue, and weight gain, but they are less intense." The
new extended-dose formulation causes lower peak plasma levels, which appears to
make the drug more tolerable. Notably less significant is nausea, which was a
problem with the immediate-release form of venlafaxine, Dr. Sussman said.

Mirtazapine (Remeron) causes no gastrointestinal problems, sexual dysfunction, or
insomnia over the long term, but difficulties are likely to occur early. Patients should
be advised that while somnolence at the start of therapy may be "overwhelming," it
usually lasts only 2-3 days. "You need to counsel patients to stick with it," he said.

Increased appetite and weight gain also may be marked in the first stage of therapy
but will generally plateau after 2-3 months. "[Treatment with mirtazapine] works
only if the patient trusts you that these effects are time limited and treatable," he said.

European trials of mirtazapine reported less trouble with initial weight gain and
somnolence, perhaps because higher doses were used. "Most [clinicians] now agree
on starting at 30 mg rather than 15 mg," Dr. Sussman said.

Nefazodone (Serzone) appears to cause little sexual dysfunction and minimal
agitation and carries a low risk of weight gain. It enhances sleep quality and reduces
awakenings. The most common side effects -- nausea, sedation, and dizziness -- are
generally limited to the beginning of treatment and are dose related. "They diminish
with each week of treatment," he said.

Physicians should be aware of the fact that patients who are switched directly from
SSRIs to nefazodone experience a higher than expected rate of side effects.

Once-daily dosing in the evening can minimize daytime sedation and dizziness with
nefazodone in patients who have been stabilized on the standard twice-a-day
schedule, he said.

Bupropion (Wellbutrin) has been associated with headache, nausea, and dry mouth,
but it is well tolerated by most patients, particularly in the long term. The
sustained-release form appears to reduce seizure risk, which has been a concern
with the drug. But bupropion still should not be given to patients who may be prone
to seizures, Dr. Sussman said.
 
Sinis said:
Long-Term Side Effects Surface With SSRIs

Author: Carl Sherman, Contributing Writer

[Clinical Psychiatry News 26(5):1, 1998. © 1998 International Medical News
Group.]



Insomnia, weight gain, sexual dysfunction emerge as problems
affecting compliance.


NEW YORK -- Physicians are seeing long-term side effects with selective
serotonin reuptake inhibitors far in excess of what was expected from clinical trial
data, Dr. Norman Sussman said at a psychopharmacology update sponsored by
New York University.

If these particular side effects -- sleep disturbances, sexual dysfunction, and weight
gain -- are problematic for patients, one of the newer non-SSRI antidepressants
may be a better choice, he said. Of course, these drugs have their own particular
side effect profiles.

When SSRIs first appeared a decade ago, their favorable side effect profile was a
key selling point. They were clearly safer and easier to use than tricyclics and
monoamine oxidase inhibitors and, above all, better tolerated by patients.

But experience has shown that some side effects are more common and problematic
than initially expected, said Dr. Sussman, director of the psychopharmacology
research and consultation service at Bellevue Hospital Center in New York.

Depression is a chronic, recurrent disorder, so long-term side effects actually may
be more important than acute ones in terms of patient compliance and quality of life,
and this has come to guide Dr. Sussman's choice of antidepressants.

Early-onset side effects may be responsible for rapid withdrawals from treatment,
but some of the most troubling of these -- nausea, diarrhea, headache, and agitation
-- will remit in 2-3 weeks.

A knottier problem is adverse effects that persist as long as the patient takes the
medication, such as sexual dysfunction and sleep disturbances. Also particularly
troubling are those, like weight gain, that don't even develop until late in treatment.

"These are the ones that are not in the insert, which is based on short-term studies,"
Dr. Sussman said.

Significant insomnia affects 15%-20% of patients taking SSRIs, twice the rate with
placebo.
Polysomnography has consistently found that these drugs cause activation
during the night: In addition to insomnia, bruxism, sweating, and periodic limb
movement are common. Vivid dreams and nightmares also occur. With ongoing
treatment, increasing numbers of patients report lethargy and fatigue, he said.

"There are a lot of data showing that people who sleep poorly are more likely to
relapse and that suicide risk is higher," he said.

Sleep problems often require concurrent medication: 22%-34% of patients taking
SSRIs also are prescribed sedatives or hypnotics, Dr. Sussman said.

Sexual dysfunctions are among the most distressing SSRI side effects. Decreased
libido and delayed or absent orgasm are the best known, but there are others, such
as the "yawning-excitement syndrome." Patients experience sexual arousal when
they yawn, often progressing to orgasm. "This is probably underreported. Patients
often say, 'If you hadn't asked me, I wouldn't have mentioned it,'" he said.

Perhaps the most unexpected SSRI-related problem to emerge has been weight
gain, which often begins only after several months of therapy. This side effect has not
been shown to be frequent or severe in controlled studies but has been reported
occur in 18%-50% of patients in some open-label studies.

Because this runs counter to the image of the drug, many physicians and patients are
unprepared to deal with it. "Some physicians tell patients, 'I can't understand why
you're gaining weight -- you're on an SSRI,'" Dr. Sussman said.

Greg Keuterman, a spokesman for Eli Lilly & Co., manufacturer of Prozac
(fluoxetine), declined to comment except to point out that "this is anecdotal
evidence."

"We're approved by the FDA for long-term treatment of depression," he added.

Pfizer Inc., the maker of Zoloft (sertraline), and SmithKline Beecham
Pharmaceuticals, the maker of Paxil (paroxetine), did not respond to requests for
comment.

These observations do contrast with what the clinical trials submitted to the Food
and Drug Administration by pharmaceutical companies show, Dr. Sussman said. It
would be nice if these long-term side effects were studied in clinical trials comparing
different antidepressants.

Some of the newer antidepressants are less likely to cause the types of long-term
problems that lead patients to discontinue SSRIs, he said.

Of course, it is possible that unexpected side effects will emerge over the long term
with these antidepressants as well, Dr. Sussman said.

With venlafaxine (Effexor), "the side effects are the same as with SSRIs: insomnia,
somnolence, lethargy and fatigue, and weight gain, but they are less intense." The
new extended-dose formulation causes lower peak plasma levels, which appears to
make the drug more tolerable. Notably less significant is nausea, which was a
problem with the immediate-release form of venlafaxine, Dr. Sussman said.

Mirtazapine (Remeron) causes no gastrointestinal problems, sexual dysfunction, or
insomnia over the long term, but difficulties are likely to occur early. Patients should
be advised that while somnolence at the start of therapy may be "overwhelming," it
usually lasts only 2-3 days. "You need to counsel patients to stick with it," he said.

Increased appetite and weight gain also may be marked in the first stage of therapy
but will generally plateau after 2-3 months. "[Treatment with mirtazapine] works
only if the patient trusts you that these effects are time limited and treatable," he said.

European trials of mirtazapine reported less trouble with initial weight gain and
somnolence, perhaps because higher doses were used. "Most [clinicians] now agree
on starting at 30 mg rather than 15 mg," Dr. Sussman said.

Nefazodone (Serzone) appears to cause little sexual dysfunction and minimal
agitation and carries a low risk of weight gain. It enhances sleep quality and reduces
awakenings. The most common side effects -- nausea, sedation, and dizziness -- are
generally limited to the beginning of treatment and are dose related. "They diminish
with each week of treatment," he said.

Physicians should be aware of the fact that patients who are switched directly from
SSRIs to nefazodone experience a higher than expected rate of side effects.

Once-daily dosing in the evening can minimize daytime sedation and dizziness with
nefazodone in patients who have been stabilized on the standard twice-a-day
schedule, he said.

Bupropion (Wellbutrin) has been associated with headache, nausea, and dry mouth,
but it is well tolerated by most patients, particularly in the long term. The
sustained-release form appears to reduce seizure risk, which has been a concern
with the drug. But bupropion still should not be given to patients who may be prone
to seizures, Dr. Sussman said.




If you are able to get off the SSRI's that would be great. SSRI's over long term use tend to burn the receptors out, thus the mental addiction.
 
Sinis said:
If you are able to get off the SSRI's that would be great. SSRI's over long term use tend to burn the receptors out, thus the mental addiction.

thanks

(that's a lot of info)

wheeew :p :p
 
indy69camaro said:
SPARETIRE,

Let me know tomorrow what you think of that after taste. While lunesta does last a little longer, it tastes LIKE SHIT, cant stand that stuff. Ambien is the bomb when used in moderation.

Indy


Completely agree with you on the Lunesta aftertaste.....yuuuuck, I mean I couldnt even stand to take a drink of water cuz it made me feel like I had to swallow the turd in my mouth, I do take ambiens 10 mg as needed, and I get like 30 per month with insurance its like 40 bucks, i too though would like to know about the ambien CR cuz i need more sleep......
 
I gottan find me some Ambien......................
 
xanax always helps me sleep great through the night with little to no bad sides the next day.

i have also used amitryptilene and trazadone, both very effective.

although i naturally sleep like a champ. i have only taken these in times of great mental duress.
 
camshaft said:
xanax always helps me sleep great through the night with little to no bad sides the next day.

i have also used amitryptilene and trazadone, both very effective.

although i naturally sleep like a champ. i have only taken these in times of great mental duress.


i wish I was so lucky - I didn't sleep at ALL lasrt night...............

I'm tired now - but I'm afraid if I try to go to sleep too early, I'll just lay there and get PISSED and then get up again..........................

It's ***horrible***
 
MUSTANG_18 said:
I have never really had trouble with sleeping (knock on wood) although D-Bol and Tren gave me terrible Insomnia. I don't normally smoke weed but if my appetite is shit or I find myself not being able to sleep, a couple hoots and I'm down for the count. Also, my brother used to have a lot of trouble sleeping when he was a little younger, he took Melatonin and that worked wonders for him.

M18


Melatonin its naturaly released from y
our brain , telling your body to sleep.
can purchase at any suplement store
 
i would stay away from xanax for sleep. it is a benzo. highly addictive. benzos horrendous drug to break addiction.
 
I have been taking xanax on and off for years. I have never had a problem with them. I only take 1/2 - 1mg every now and then to chill me out when i feel like killing somebody. They are great for sleep. If you really have a bad day just polish off a 2mg bar with a few nice tall cold beers. You will feel no pain.

I have taken them every day for a few weeks before then stopped for a month or so and never had any problems but everybody I know has a horrible time with comming off them. I dont get it. I guess I am lucky. Only thing that gets me every now and then is beer. I like it to much i guess.
 
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