My Squat & A Lightbulb Moment

[spatts]

As you know, I've been over-analyzing my squat...but hey, it's a technical lift.

Yesterday, in the midst of my brainstorming and frustration, something occured to me. I was trying to get very real with myself about my weaknesses, and the fact the my lower back feels fatigued all the time, to the point that I can't pick a sock up off the floor without my back "catching;" yet, I can do a 425+ pounds high chain suspended GM, which is more than I squat. My hamstrings aren't weak, I can do GHRs on the floor. My hips aren't inflexible, I can do ATF squats at a 42" width with a couple hundred pounds dangling from me.

Then I got to thinking about our current rotation. I never work up to 1-3 rep maxes on free standing GMs; however, I do HEAVY HEAVY HEAVY GM's, chain suspended back-to-back. One week from 44", and one week from 36". I do pretty well on these, but my free standing GMs suck. So why does my back fail me all the time when I bend over to pick something up?

You know what I think has happened? I have completely lost eccentric strength! Chain suspended GMs are all concentric. I have, through training, over strengthened my concentric abilities, while actually weakening my ability to support eccentric force. This is why I can deadlift 430 like it's no big deal, but when I walk out a 350 pound squat, it feels like the heaviest thing I've ever felt.

A back squat is just a very heavy static eccentric hold!! No wonder my back seems like the weak link; in a squatting situation IT IS!!

Get this, my zercher FRONT SQUAT is only about 80-90 pounds less than my back squat. Again, .



My proposed solution:

Back off the chain suspended GM, removing at least one from the rotation. Rather than putting them back-to-back do chain suspended 44" one week, followed by deads or squats the next week, and then free standing GMs 36" the next. That way I have 2 weeks between GMs rather than one. I also want to add lighter free standing ones as secondary/accessory movements on speed days.

Also, because I have lost some confidence in my squat, I'm going to do free standing squats in a higher rep range every other week as a second move. Just to get a better feel for the lift and to build up confidence in the motion, itself. (Thanks, Fannon)

I could be totally wrong, but this makes sense to me, and my gut feeling is that I've hit the nail on the head.

Let's see what the next 4 weeks bring.

 

[Liftbig]

very good grasshopper. i think you may be on to something

 

[t3c]

i completely agree...and noticed this for myself a few weeks back

90% of my gm variations were suspended and I was getting frustrated becaue i was prone to cheat more and i felt like i wasn't getting carry over. I started doing free gms with different bars, and variations and i feel ALOT stronger than before and it shows in my numbers.

I feel like standing gms hit the abs more too.

 

[SofaGeorge]

Interesting insight.

 

[Exodus]

i have thought of something similar before spatts............. here is an idea for you.

why not load up the bar for chain suspended gm's.... unrack it and walk out, then bend over untill the chains catch, then lift it back up. it would kinda be like the box squat version of the gm. you still lower, but there is a definite break in the concentric/ecentric chain.

X

 

[Mike_Rojas]

I think adding in free-standing squats is a good idea. I never liked the idea of NOT squatting except in contests. I think some practice is essential.

 

[spatts]

Exodus, I was just talking to a friend about doing that! One catch: Instead of GMing the bar back up, I want to just lift it back up on to the J hooks. Here's why: If I am correct, then there's litterally a 300 pound difference between my concentric and eccentric strength. I want to get the eccentric strength caught up. Once the eccentric strength comes up, and my lowerback isn't freaking out on me everytime I move suddenly to grab something, I will add that concentric element back in. In other words, I would like to use this particular move as an eccentric only move for a while, to counter all the concentric only work I've been doing.

Great suggestion!

 

[Exodus]

Exodus, I was just talking to a friend about doing that! One catch: Instead of GMing the bar back up, I want to just lift it back up on to the J hooks. Here's why: If I am correct, then there's litterally a 300 pound difference between my concentric and eccentric strength. I want to get the eccentric strength caught up. Once the eccentric strength comes up, and my lowerback isn't freaking out on me everytime I move suddenly to grab something, I will add that concentric element back in. In other words, I would like to use this particular move as an eccentric only move for a while, to counter all the concentric only work I've been doing.

Great suggestion!

no prob.......... you know, since it is a "resting place"..... i mean the chains. once you lower the bar....... you should probably put a weight on for something that you would just be doing negatives if there was no chain. like say 250lb....... and lower it in a certain rep count as slow as you can, then you know you can fire that back out of the hole........ props to you for figuring out your weakness...........

ps. look for B folds post from this past sunday, full of pics and vid's of trinity73.

X

 

[spatts]

Rojas, we squat, but not a full ROM 1 RM. That's the catch. We do them on a box though when we do work up to a max, and I want to switch to free standing for full ROM higher reps.

 

[Mike_Rojas]

Right, I'm just agreeing that you should do free-standing. Box squats are great, but I just feel regular squats should be included from time to time.

 

[jerkbox]

hey good thinking.....seems to make sense that you are so used to training the concentric movement....perhaps not a matter of actual strength so much as it is training your muscles to do the opposite of an explosive contraction.

it'll be interesting to see how you improve.

 

[pwr_machine]

Sometimes it's best to look at the overall picture and just go back to the basics.

 

[spatts]

So are you saying you agree or disagree with my theory? lol

 

[Ish]

Do you think some front squats would help any?

 

[pwr_machine]

So are you saying you agree or disagree with my theory? lol

I think you're on the right track. Since you're working on squat, then my solution is squat. Backing off the the chain suspended GMs and such will be a definate help. I bet those numbers come up soon. I wish you the very best. I'm looking forward to hearing about it.

 

[spatts]

I do front squats now. Like I said in the first post, my front squat is only about 80-90 pounds less than my back squat (and even that is only limited by what my arms will hold). A front squat pulls you down, and you have to pull up to resist it. That I can do. A back squat PUSHES you down, and you have to resist it....that's what I have trouble with.

 

[Ish]

ahh, gotcha.

 

[spatts]

I think you're on the right track. Since you're working on squat, then my solution is squat. Backing off the the chain suspended GMs and such will be a definate help. I bet those numbers come up soon. I wish you the very best. I'm looking forward to hearing about it.

Thank you. Even if my squat doesn't progress, I'm looking forward to feeling better. I suspect I will see both, though.

 

[coolcolj]

eccentrics and iosmetrics build strength, concentrics build power

 

[velvett]

SPATTS - A reality show - we'd look forward to watching.
















Over and over again.

 

[spatts]

eccentrics and iosmetrics build strength, concentrics build power

Perhaps that's why my speed squats rock and my max squat sucks?

 

[pwr_machine]

eccentrics and iosmetrics build strength, concentrics build power

Not much value in an isometric contraction, but I can see where you're headed with eccentric and concentric contractions.

 

[Debaser]

Spatts is this because of a variation you tried or does Westside as a whole not have many eccentric movements? That's one of the reasons I like to keep things simple, doing the full movement and just adding weight to the bar consistantly.

I know speed/assistance work does have its place but I still think doing the actual lift itself rather than a variation is important. That's why I think Ed Coan's methods (pretty similar to Hardgainer magazine's, in fact) are a little better suited to me.

 

[coolcolj]

A nice quote -


You hit the nail on the head. The more force a muscle absorbs and stores, the more force the muscle has the potential to release. For example, the greater one stretches a rubber band, upon release, the further it travels. Muscles have the same elastic properties as bands.

I would read the section in "Supertraining" regarding Isometric training. You'll see that Jay operates within the extreme isometric positions, where tension is reflected upon the whole muscular length. Much different than traditional isometric training, where tension is reflected +15 degrees and -15 degrees from its point of application.

Also, notice that his static work is always followed by a dynamic (rebound). Do you know why he does this? I do. A hint, sport is a continous process of alternating between muscular regimes. Hint#2, isometric and dynamic movements recruit and are activated from different neural processes. They must be constructed individually, developed simultaneously, but trained to co-exist.

 

[spatts]

Debaser, it was just a training oversight on my part, and it was only that lift (GMs).

I noticed it about a month ago, and didn't make sense of it until last night.

 

[Debaser]

Ah

 

[spatts]

CCJ, what types of isometric movements do you think would help me correct this imbalance best? How should they be performed?

 

[coolcolj]

Well you can do what I started doing, ISO-ecentric singles - or what the Russians call dynamic isometrics.

grab 60% of your 1RM lower down very very very slowly and hold 4 points in the Squat ROM for 4 secs each. ie 1/8, 1/4, above parallel, bottom - then explode up. It's important to explode back up.

It hurts - a lot - no more than 2-3 singles. 2 is best.
Holding the bottom position for 10 secs would be better if you can hack it
You kill several birds with one stone.

Perhaps try it after your max effort workouts

that's just one variation. I know Jay Schroeder likes to hold a rock bottom lunge for up to 1min at a time with no weight and then explode into a jump. Since the hold is in the stretched position of a msucle, you get gains across the full ROM of the msucles involved.

 

[spatts]

...and that's for lower back strength? Or legs? You mentioned lunges, so I'm curious. Obviously the squat is compound enough for all of it.

 

[coolcolj]

Well with lunges you stretch the hips of the leading leg, and the hip flexors of the trailing leg, so you get strength in those areas where a squat doesn't touch.

in a normal squat, you get benefits in every muscle involved. prime movers, stablisers etc

 

[IronLion]

Spatts I was going to say that you should start using a compensatory acceleration with a a pause at the bottom on sets of like 5 with true atf squats

 

[Backlash]

CCJ (and anyone else), would that isometric method also work well for bench press? It sounds good, and I need to practice exploding off the bottom anyway, apparently, since that's my sticking point.

 

[revexrevex]

Is this only for advanced lifter who trained normally for a while and just wants to tweak very, very small specific areas, or would this benefit everyone?

 

[spatts]

When I speed bench I've been controlling it down, pausing at the bottom, and then exploding up. Makes sense that I would do that when squatting too. Is that what you're talking about IL? Only ATF? I could add the pauses like CCJ in to that too, but should I not do the pauses with bands?

 

[pwr_machine]

Hint#2, isometric and dynamic movements recruit and are activated from different neural processes. They must be constructed individually, developed simultaneously, but trained to co-exist.

Please explain in more detail. I'm not buying the activation from different neural processes.

 

[spatts]

This is interesting....

 

[coolcolj]

Well for one - if Isometrics were using the same nueral processes then holds in one joint angle should tranfer fully across the ROM like normal reps do, but they don't except at the extreme stretched positions. In every movement, the body switches from one muscular contraction type to another very quickly, ie eccentric > isometric > before concentric kicks in. The stronger your eccentric, the quicker you kick into isometric, and the stronger your isometric, the quicker you switch to concentric, and that means better stretch reflex useage and more power, thus faster upward velocity!

These techniques can be used in any exercise and by anyone. But just be warned the tension is extreme, so if you get tremors back off. You'll find out very quickly why no one likes to go slow on the way down and hold static positions , especially at your sticking point
It made me realise how weak I was at holding loads,
and 20-30 sec iso-eccntric singles aren't a cake walk

 

[pwr_machine]

Well for one - if Isometrics were using the same nueral processes then holds in one joint angle should tranfer fully across the ROM like normal reps do, but they don't except at the extreme stretched positions. In every movement, the body switches from one muscular contraction type to another very quickly, ie eccentric > isometric > before concentric kicks in.

NOT! There's no difference between eccentric, concentric, or isometric muscle contractions except the length of the muscle. The muscle still contracts even with an eccentric contraction! When it's lengthening, the cross bridges are being broken.
It's even contracting when doing isometric exercise; it's just not shortening. The muscle doesn't know the difference.

Also, where are you getting your information? Can it be cited with any studies?

 

[coolcolj]

I don't mean literally, I'm talking about nueral processes here.
Perhaps strengths would be a better term.

amortizing strength is so important, and this is something you have to train seperately, this is why drop jumps work.

that is why one has to train speed strnegth, slow strength, amortizing strength, starting strength, reactive strength and explosive strength specificly to get better at each
Granted they all have some interconnections.
If they were all using the same processes, one exercise technique like HIT would develope all these different strengths effeciently, which it sure don't.

It's all in CNS.

 

[pwr_machine]

If they were all using the same processes, one exercise technique like HIT would develope all these different strengths effeciently, which it sure don't.

It's all in CNS.

I agree that the central nervous system contributes, however it is the speed of firing (action potential) and not a difference in muscle contraction or a difference in neural paths that determines the strength of the muscle contraction.