My Custom Cycle

[Tanksloan]

First off you guys are fucking awesome!
I'll respond in order that you all wrote:
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Judo Tom and Stevesmi:
Now I understand, that makes total sense to dip your toes into just one at a time and test the waters first.
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Stevesmi: "believe it or not carbs are needed to build muscle.. its one of the most underrated things out there for bodybuilders..
also not everyone came from hunter/gatherer pasts, it depends on your ethnic background."

I guess this is where you and I differ in opinion.
Modern Agriculture was invented only 10,000 years ago, meaning for the 2.5 million years before that humans had no choice but to be hunter gatherers.
Anthropology shows us that many tribes ate diets of solely meat, as vegetables & grains were very unavailable and scarce.
So my point is we're far more adapted to eating meat than anything else.
Carbs just make you fat, insulin resistant, and damage your body by forming AGE's which harden your insides.
This I got from reading a shitload of alternative research books.
Another very bad thing about a high carb diet is that your body will start burning sugar for fuel,
and when you're a sugar-burner, and you don't eat enough, it will start using up your muscle mass by converting the protein into sugar (instead of your fat stores).

I don't want this doesn't come off arguementative,
so if you've got some specific reasons why carbs are necessary or helpful for muscle building please do tell.
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A lot of responses focused on diet and I think you're all right about that.
I need to eat more food to get bigger no doubt.
I've got this 1/2 cow coming soon from my farmer so I'll start eating like a beast soon.

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Lethia:
"This doesnt apply to everyone, certainly not me, if i followed that logic id stuff something down every 2 min, i can eat 5k+ of good food in a day and still be hungry..."
If I had to cold read your lifestyle based on that statement I would say that you eat more than a little carbohydrates.
Carbs are moderate at best as far as nutrient content:
They are low in fat, and the fat that's in there is omega-6, low in vitamins, minerals, and low in protein.
When you eat foods that don't give you what you need, your body's response is to keep you hungry in hopes that the next thing you give it will be nutritious and satisfy it's biochemical requirements.
From what I've read that's what's going on.
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Moya: Thanks for the response as well.
You seem to understand my situation.
All my life it's always been hard to put on weight, I could eat anything and everything and still remain lean, sounds like you might have been that way also.

As far as carbs go, I just don't see the benefit from this... they'll make me fat, which yeah, that'll put on some weight, but
isn't it possible to just put on muscle and not fat at the same time?

And yes lots of squats.
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Thanks again to everyone!@
-Mark

 

[Judo Tom]

look if you want optimal muscle growth while on cycle then you eat. You eat lots of protein obviously but also lots of carbs to provide the energy and insulin for the growth. you might not stay as lean as you normally do but while you are on make the most of the opportunity to put on muscle. also you maybe suprised how little if any fat you gain while training like crazy and adding muscle to your frame. I can guartanee that if you dont eat a lot of carbs you will not grow as much muscle and you may regret that forever.

 

[Akorsis]

I used a high carb diet for my training and my lifts went up definitely. Brown rice, quinoa, granola, all excellent sources of carbohydrates. I even ate them with cutting (though at a much smaller portion and only after exercise)

 

[moya]

i am the same way bro... i will gain some fat eating the carbs, but that is inevitable for muscle gains with a body type like mine... you sound the same way, there are many people like that...
you can try upping your protein intake as well, but you need to AT LEAST get some clean carbs in there... no carbs wont get you far...
i would suggest 4-5k calories minimum and see where that leaves you in 3 months...

 

[gucciman007]

Does anybody a know the right amount to take epo.. I weight 190 and what is the right amount to take

 

[Tanksloan]

Well although I am thankful for all of you guys helping me out, I can't settle for that without having some science to back it up.

I have emailed Randy Roach, author of the most seminal book on bodybuilding history, Muscle, Smoke and Mirrors and asked him these questions specifically.
"Are carbs necessary for building muscle? if so, how much and when?
Did bodybuilders of past era's eat carbs?"

I also emailed Dan John, author of Never Let Go: A Philosophy of Lifting, Living and Learning.
and Mark Rippetoe, author of a number of books including Strong Enough? Thoughts from Thirty Years of Barbell Training, and Starting Strength and asked them the same questions.

In addition to this I am reading about 20 different articles online specifically for science evidencing the need to consume carbs for muscle growth and taking notes.
It's time to get to the bottom of this... There's no more room for ignorance in this world.
Facts are the antidote to ignorance, and Knowledge is power.

-Mark

 

[moya]

rippetoe will set you straight
...right to the front of the buffet line...

 

[stevesmi]

Stevesmi: "believe it or not carbs are needed to build muscle.. its one of the most underrated things out there for bodybuilders..
also not everyone came from hunter/gatherer pasts, it depends on your ethnic background."

I guess this is where you and I differ in opinion.
Modern Agriculture was invented only 10,000 years ago, meaning for the 2.5 million years before that humans had no choice but to be hunter gatherers.
Anthropology shows us that many tribes ate diets of solely meat, as vegetables & grains were very unavailable and scarce.
So my point is we're far more adapted to eating meat than anything else.
Carbs just make you fat, insulin resistant, and damage your body by forming AGE's which harden your insides.
This I got from reading a shitload of alternative research books.
Another very bad thing about a high carb diet is that your body will start burning sugar for fuel,
and when you're a sugar-burner, and you don't eat enough, it will start using up your muscle mass by converting the protein into sugar (instead of your fat stores).

I don't want this doesn't come off arguementative,
so if you've got some specific reasons why carbs are necessary or helpful for muscle building please do tell.k

bro this forum is to discuss, learn, share knowledge etc. so ask away if you have a concern, its not argumentative at all.

the hunter-gatherer thing isn't for everyone.. if you are an American you are probably a mix of a lot of stuff.. and not all your ancestors were hunter-gatherers. google it and see.

half our ancestors around the world were primitive agriculturalists. mostly from Africa or the meditarrean sea area. these guys tend to have higher test levels than the hunter-gathereres of Asia or northern europe.

Hunter-gatherers tend to have lower testosterone. This is because in hunter-gatherer society, women need men to survive. So they grab one pretty quickly and get married.
In primitive agricultural societies, women do not need men, since they can farm on their own. So they can afford to be choosy. These societies have tended to develop in a polygynous way, where a few high-ranking males monopolize most of the females, and the rest of the guys get none. It’s kind of like high school, except it keeps going for your whole life.

its a nice theory you have but even if the above were to taken in consideration in anything once you get into your 30's this theory would get thrown out the window cause things even out and the advantage of the polygamous agriculturalists dissapears. perhaps its cause our ancestors did not live very long? who knows.. but anyway it makes for fun talk.

as for the carbs.. I'm not saying go out and eat a chocolate cake or a mcdonalds big mac.. i'm saying complex carbs... oats, grains, brown rice, sweet potato etc. why do you need them? cause your glycogen levels need to be restored and your muscles need the fuel. YES you are gonna put on some fat when you bulk, so what? but if you keep your diet in line it won't be much, thats why i urge everyone who is overweight to get their bf% under 15% before running a cycle, this way you have room to bulk without worrying. anything under 15% for a man in their 30's is fantastic, people think you have to be under 10% to look good, its just not true at all.

 

[Judo Tom]

when I am ON I want to be as anabolic as possible. I make sure I am at or under 10% bf when I start and I eat complex carbs, protein and fat with every meal. I am very active so I eat a lot. I try to make sure my body consistently has the protein and ENERGY necessary to gain muscle. If you want to put on 20lbs of muscle in 2-3 months that takes a lot of energy. Another benefit of carbs is there efficiency in fueling your muscles. Yes protein and fat can fuel your muscles but it is an inefficient process and the process requires extra energy. Energy that could go right into building muscle. Still another benefit of complex carbs is the insulin response. Insulin is as anabolic as it gets. It forces nutrients into the muscle cells.

I think low carb is a great maintenance diet and lifestyle choice but you have an opportunity to pack on a lot of muscle in a short time and you should make the most of the potential to get bigger. I would say try it and see how it works for your first cycle. If you dont like it next time do a cycle with low carbs and see how it works out for YOU. That really is the only way you will ever know.

 

[Tanksloan]

Hey guys,
That's more great information and thanks for sharing.

and let me add this as well... through anthropology we know modern agriculture is less than 10,000 years old.
This means that from 2.5 million years ago until 10,000 years ago humans ate very few carbs because they weren't agriculturalists.
The only food they ate was 100% wild, which did include roots and other tubers, some sprouted grains, but definitely no grains as we know them today.
My only point with this historical talk is that following the food pyramid that the gov 'the one we love' wants us to on a high carb diet,
is in many peoples opinions the primary cause of all the disease we see in the world today.

I've read a shit load of books on carbs and the science of it and I am weary of intaking a lot of it.
From longevity research we also know that one thing all centarians have in common is a very low fasting blood sugar.
What they're finding is the release of insulin is literally what ages you. The less insulin you release over your lifetime, the longer you'll live.
This among all the other damaging effects of sugar, is why I want to be as scientific about how many carbs I eat as possible.