MS - Insulin Resistance

[Daisy_Girl]

In a previous post, you stated that abdominal fat is not an estrogenic fat, rather it can be due to insulin resistance. I am interested in this specifically, because even when dieting seriously, my abdominal area stays VERY resistant to fat reduction. I *totally* understand that diet will ultimately dictate fat loss, but am interested in understanding things further.

Can you explain, in laywomans terms, what insulin resistance is? I read a lot about it, but have never truely understood it. Also, what can one "do" about it, control it, etc.

Also, if abdominal fat is not estrogenic, do you think this means Yohimburn will not work as well on the abdominal area? That it will work better on areas such as the hips, thighs, butt (estrogenic fat areas)?

I appreciate your input and knowledge....

 

[MS]

Genetics also has a big part in how you store fat, but in general a healthy pattern of fat storage in women is lower body. Women who store fat more easily around the middle may have low estrogen (as in postmenopausal), high testosterone, or often an inbalance of estrogen to testosterone. Testosterone can be considered an abdominal fat storage hormone which is why guys are more likely to have love handles. Insulin also increases testosterone (and vice versa), so anything that raises insulin or test can cause abdominal fat. Testosterone seems to increase the numbers of a type of receptor called alpha 2 adrenoreceptors around the abs, and estrogen increases these same receptors in the lower body. Yohimbine inhibits the fat storing activity of these receptors so should work equally well in any fat that is rich in these receptors.

The solution really depends on what is causing the fat storage. Yohimbine will not work in the presence of high insulin, so the if you are going to try this drug you need to use it when you are exercising and have fasting blood glucose. This is true whether you store you fat around your abs or in the lower body. If you have an easy time losing lower body fat, but you abs are lagging, then I suspect either estrogen is low, or androgens are high, or an imbalance. You can get blood work done to measure estrogens, progesterone, SHBG and free testosterone over the course of a menstrual cycle to find out what may be outta whack. If you have trouble losing fat in both the lower body AND abs, then you may have problems with thyroid, insulin, or just plain eating too much. Sadly this last cause is becoming predominant in America which is why you see so many blubbery midriffs hanging out over blubbery thighs and butts in todays ill-clad youth. A healthy young woman SHOULD have a decent amount of fat on her lower body and a nice narrow waist.

 

[wilson6]

Gut fat, the fat under the muscle (visceral) is more likely to cause insulin resistance than be a function of it. Deep gut fat releases adiponectin causing increased insulin sensitivity by mechanisms that are not clear, and there is an inverse correlation between the size of gut fat adipocytes and adiponectin. So, the greater the deep gut fat, the greater the insulin resistance. This is why so many people that carry fat guts are at highest risk for Type II diabetes.

However, gut fat is usually easier to get rid of than gluteal-femoral fat. There is also a genetic component regardless of endocrine status.

W6

 

[Daisy_Girl]

Thanks you two - I am understanding more now. I have to go read MS's post a couple more times to let it sink in. I am sure I'll have more Qs then.

I truely appreciate both of you, and your knowledge. You both bring so much to the board that I cannot find anywhere else. Thank you.

 

[MS]

Yup, visceral gut fat is very easy to get rid of. It is for this very reason that it poses a cardiovascular health risk. It easily releases it's stored fat into circulation raising triglycerides and clogging arteries (and the attendant insulin resistance that goes with raised triglycerides) However men (and some women) are also more prone to store excess calories in subcutaneous abdominal areas as well (aka love handles), and this tends to be harder to get rid of unless you are very lean. Same deal with sub-q thigh and butt fat in women. Because it is so hard to mobilize this fat, it poses little cardiovascualr risk. This is good for your health but not very visually pleasing in our current 'thin-is-in' western mentality. It is this sub-q fat that yohimbine theoretically targets rather than deep fat.

Basically if you have a rock hard 'beer gut' then yohimbine won't work, but a decent diet and exercise program will. If you have a lot of pinchable, shakeable, wobbly sub-cutaneous fat then yohimbine *might* work (along with the decent diet/exercise).

 

[Daisy_Girl]

Yup, visceral gut fat is very easy to get rid of. It is for this very reason that it poses a cardiovascular health risk. It easily releases it's stored fat into circulation raising triglycerides and clogging arteries (and the attendant insulin resistance that goes with raised triglycerides) However men (and some women) are also more prone to store excess calories in subcutaneous abdominal areas as well (aka love handles), and this tends to be harder to get rid of unless you are very lean. Same deal with sub-q thigh and butt fat in women. Because it is so hard to mobilize this fat, it poses little cardiovascualr risk. This is good for your health but not very visually pleasing in our current 'thin-is-in' western mentality. It is this sub-q fat that yohimbine theoretically targets rather than deep fat.

Basically if you have a rock hard 'beer gut' then yohimbine won't work, but a decent diet and exercise program will. If you have a lot of pinchable, shakeable, wobbly sub-cutaneous fat then yohimbine *might* work (along with the decent diet/exercise).

Good post - makes things more clear.

The estrogenic fat we talk about, is sub-q not visceral?

 

[RottenWillow]

This is clearly going to be a great reference thread.


MS, Wilson: what is happening hormonally if a woman's fat storage appears to be exclusively on the buttocks? Not femoral storage in general, but only the ass. Is that significant in terms of hormones or is that just a genetic trait? If I get over about 16% bf my ass looks like two beachballs because my buttocks are very rounded and ALL of my fat storage is concentrated right there.

 

[MS]

MS, Wilson: what is happening hormonally if a woman's fat storage appears to be exclusively on the buttocks? Not femoral storage in general, but only the ass. Is that significant in terms of hormones or is that just a genetic trait? If I get over about 16% bf my ass looks like two beachballs because my buttocks are very rounded and ALL of my fat storage is concentrated right there.

Genetics.


Daisy, estrogen does not seem to contribute to visceral fat directly but most certainly contirbutes to sub-q fat even at so-called maintenance calories. However even when estrogen levels are high a woman can still store excess visceral fat if calories are in excess. However this excess can easily be lost with diet, whereas once you store the sub-q estrogen sensitive fat it is very stubborn to lose it

A moment on the lips, a lifetime on the hips.....

 

[RottenWillow]

Genetics.

As I thought, but was never certain. Thanks MS.


MS, what about caffiene and insulin resistance? I've heard it was transitory but my own personal experience suggests that this may not be accurate. How long do you think one cup of very strong Bucaramanga (a nuclear strength Supremo bean) consumed on an empty stomach would impact insulin senstivity?

 

[MS]

MS, what about caffiene and insulin resistance? I've heard it was transitory but my own personal experience suggests that this may not be accurate. How long do you think one cup of very strong Bucaramanga (a nuclear strength Supremo bean) consumed on an empty stomach would impact insulin senstivity?

IMHO the whole insulin resistance/caffeine drama is overhyped. ANYTHING that increases lipolysis (fatburning) will increases insulin resistance. Same with ECA, clen, yohimbine etc...

It's a trade off between increased lipolysis versus short term insulin sensitivity. Anything that helps you lose fat will ultimately improve you long term insulin sensitivity so don't worry abot it too much. But I still try to avoid coffee with carb meals.

BTW coffee on an empty stomach will not impact insulin sensitivity because insulin will not be raised without carbs going in at the same time.

 

[RottenWillow]

BTW coffee on an empty stomach will not impact insulin sensitivity because insulin will not be raised without carbs going in at the same time.

Thanks MS. How long should I wait after a carb meal to drink the coffee in order to avoid any degree of sensitivity reduction?

 

[Daisy_Girl]

Can someone (MS, W6, Anya) "define" what insulin resistant means? How about insulin sensitivity? Define, explain, etc.

I have the general idea, just want clarification (plus as Anya said, this is a great reference thread)

 

[MS]

I wouldn't worry about the caffeine thing really. After all the people who drink the most coffee (6+ cups per day) have a greatly reduced risk of developing diabetes compared to non-coffee drinkers.

Insulin resistance and sensitivity in the context of this thread are relative concepts. Sure there are international standards for diagnosing pre diabetic insulin resistance and full blown type 2 insulin resistance, but for most of us I use the terms to mean an increase or decrease in insulin sensitivity compared to what you would normally have.

I think a better way to view relative insulin resistance is as your body's way of trying to REDUCE fat gain rather than increase it. An insulin resistant fat cell is less likely to store fat than a sensitive cell (in the short term). It's the chronic long term elevation of blood glucose and fats that seems to cause the most problems. If the fats can't get into your cells, they float around in the blood or get stored in the liver where they do more damage than getting stored in subcutaneous fat. If blood glucose remains high for prolonged periods it also does irreparable damage.

So all things in moderation, and don't overeat!!!

 

[Daisy_Girl]

So being insulin resistant means you are not likely to increase body fat easily? But this also means that not storing dietary fat in fat cells can cause health problems, since the fat is still in your body.... right? Which is why STILL eating in moderation and working out is important no matter what.

And an insulin sensitive person finds increasing their body fat quite easy?

What are steps one can take to decrease their insulin sensitivity?

 

[MS]

Slow down there Daisy. You need insulin sensitivity to get glucose into your muscle cells as well as into your brain for proper functioning. A bodybuilder does not want to be universally insulin resistant because a) they will have a host of problems with blood lipids, high blood glucose and fatty liver, and b) they won't have the glycogen to train intensely.

What you really want is to make the insulin work for you by preferentially shuttling glucose into your muscles. The best (cheapest and healthiest) way to do this is by exercising. Exercise sensitizes your muscles to insulin very nicely. Exercise also increases fat and calorie burning.

 

[Daisy_Girl]

Slow down there Daisy. You need insulin sensitivity to get glucose into your muscle cells as well as into your brain for proper functioning. A bodybuilder does not want to be universally insulin resistant because a) they will have a host of problems with blood lipids, high blood glucose and fatty liver, and b) they won't have the glycogen to train intensely.

What you really want is to make the insulin work for you by preferentially shuttling glucose into your muscles. The best (cheapest and healthiest) way to do this is by exercising. Exercise sensitizes your muscles to insulin very nicely. Exercise also increases fat and calorie burning.

lol @ slow down. When things start clicking, I get 12 steps ahead without thinking.

This is why people take in tons of carbs post-workout - to shuttle them into the muscles for recovery without them being stored as fat (theoretically)?

A more insulin resistant person might have higher cholesterol levels due to the fact that the fexcess is circulating more (because it cannot be utilized) because the insulin cannot shuttle it into muscles/brain? Is this mostly a genetic thing? Are we genentically programmed to be more "insulin resistant" or "insulin sensitive"?

Let me see if I understand. In a non-diabetic person, when you eat, your body releases insulin. The amount of insulin released depends on the food eaten.....high GI carb will release more, low GI carb will release less. The insulin helps utilize the carbs in your muscles and brain. The excess (carbs? insulin?) will go towards fat-making.

Very complex.

 

[SparkyGirl]

awwww great information here!!!

 

[MS]

This is why people take in tons of carbs post-workout - to shuttle them into the muscles for recovery without them being stored as fat (theoretically)?

Yes, you can burn off a some carbs with weight training, and you can restore those same carbs with post workout carbs. However you can't store excess calories as fat if you aren't eating excess calories. I think this is where too many people get confused. It's really excess calories stored as (visceral) fat that cause insulin resistance and not the other way around. Instead of worrying so much about the number of carbs or GI of foods, people would be better off is they just ensured they don't eat like pigs all the time.

A more insulin resistant person might have higher cholesterol levels due to the fact that the fexcess is circulating more (because it cannot be utilized) because the insulin cannot shuttle it into muscles/brain? Is this mostly a genetic thing? Are we genentically programmed to be more "insulin resistant" or "insulin sensitive"?

Excess calories, whether from carbs or fat, have to go somewhere. If they can't get stored in muscles or subcutaneous adipose tissue (due to insulin resistance or because you haven't used your muscles) then they get stored in visceral fat. This visceral fat sets up a viscious cycle where it increases circulating fats, which increases insulin resistance, which causes more fat to be stored in visceral fat. Also, once insulin resistance becomes pathological, your brain senses a lack of glucose because the glucose can't get into the cells (even though there's lots of glucose in the blood). This signals the liver to produce more glucose, the pancreas to produce more insulin, so now you have high blood glucose, insulin and lots of fats floating around. Not good.

Some folks are more genetically prone to this than others, but I stress again that this is mainly when the environment (in other words excess calories) interacts with those genes. if you remove the excess calories then you remove the root cause of the problem.

Let me see if I understand. In a non-diabetic person, when you eat, your body releases insulin. The amount of insulin released depends on the food eaten.....high GI carb will release more, low GI carb will release less. The insulin helps utilize the carbs in your muscles and brain. The excess (carbs? insulin?) will go towards fat-making.

Insulin resistance is when insulin is not working efficiently. The insulin is present, but target tissues are less sensitive to insulin. From Harper's Biochemistry, "In conditions in which plasma insulin levels are high, e.g. obesity, the number of insulin receptors is decreased and target tissues become less sensitive to insulin. This down-regulation results from the loss of receptors by internalization, the process whereby insulin-receptor complexes enter the cell. Down-regulation explains part of the insulin resistance in obesity and type 2 diabetes mellitus." So part of insulin resistance is the result of high insulin levels leading to reduced numbers of insulin receptors. It's not just the carbs that cause the problem. More like the other way around. High insulin due to high fat causes a lot of the problems.

The key point is higher levels of insulin create a vicious circle of less sensitive insulin due to down-regulation of insulin receptors, resulting in even higher insulin levels and increased insulin insensitivity. Diabetics mainly focus on blood sugar levels, but reducing insulin levels is vital. Losing weight, exercise, eating low glycemic foods, eating small meals, supplements, and other methods can reduce insulin levels .


Very complex.[/QUOTE]

 

[superqt4u2nv]

MS sort of on off topic I don't tend to hold the most fat in my abs it would be on my rear or thighs. Anywho I found that when I was on clen the first place that was very noticeable for fat lose was my abs. How does clen effect your insulin levels?

 

[velvett]

This so screams STICKY!

 

[velvett]

However even when estrogen levels are high a woman can still store excess visceral fat if calories are in excess. However this excess can easily be lost with diet, whereas once you store the sub-q estrogen sensitive fat it is very stubborn to lose it ....

 

[MS]

MS sort of on off topic I don't tend to hold the most fat in my abs it would be on my rear or thighs. Anywho I found that when I was on clen the first place that was very noticeable for fat lose was my abs. How does clen effect your insulin levels?

Clen, like all other "fat burners" increases insulin resistance, but this is only because you mobilize more fat! Drugs like clen help the types of receptors that are found in abundance in visceral fat and lots of sub-q fat depots. By helping these receptors, it increases how much fat can be burned from these areas. Sadly though, drugs like clen may actually work against your attempt to lose estrogenic fat.

 

[Daisy_Girl]

Clen, like all other "fat burners" increases insulin resistance, but this is only because you mobilize more fat! Drugs like clen help the types of receptors that are found in abundance in visceral fat and lots of sub-q fat depots. By helping these receptors, it increases how much fat can be burned from these areas. Sadly though, drugs like clen may actually work against your attempt to lose estrogenic fat.

So Clen might be a good choice if a female does not hold the "normal" estrogenic fat patterns? And how/why does Clen work against estrogenic fat?

(Of course, this is assuming a good clean diet, good training program and an already decently-low BF%...this has to be done 1st, before Clen is considered)

 

[MS]

Beta agonists like clen seem to actually inhibit the ability to burn estrogenic fat. I am gonna be cycling ephedrine for two weeks with Yohimburn ES for two weeks to see what happens. For me the estrogenic fat is hard to lose, the other is trivial, so in the long run I may just go with the yohimbine. The biggest advantage of clen/ECA is appetite suppression IMHO.

 

[wilson6]

The insulin resistance/beta-agonist issue also has to do with down regulation of beta-receptors that occurs with clen use.

Why would clen inhibit the loss of E-fat? I would assume that clen is more specific to the beta receptor than alpha, but have never read an article that describes its affinity to alpha and beta, 1 and 2.

I would think one would want to block the alpha-2s at the same time they are hitting the beta's with an agonist. The issue of when fat gets mobilized has to do with the ratio of alpha-2s to beta's. If the beta's are activated and alpha-2's blocked, you should have lipolysis from that fat depot. If both are equally activated, but the ratio is in favor of alpha-2s, then nothing happens.

W6

 

[MS]

Catecholamines have enough affinity for the alpha2 AR to cause an upregulation of their activity. Seems due to the two receptors being antagonistically coupled to the adenylylcyclase pathway. In theory alpha-2 blockade may overcome this, but I have reservations about the wisdom of mixing beta agonists with alpha 2 antagonists at the same time. I also don't really know the relative affinities, so not sure if yohimbine can completely over ride clen's (or ECAs) affects. In any event most women struggle more with alpha-2 mediated fatloss, and increasing lipolysis via beta receptors without increasing overall lipolysis will inevitably mean less fat loss from alpha-2 dense fat.

As an addendum to this interaction between beta receptors and alpha-2 receptors, it would appear that excercise mediated lipolysis works against fat loss from thighs and butt (without something like yohimbine) whereas a low calorie "couch potato" approach to fat loss will favor this kind of fat mobilization due to low SNS activation and low insulin. Again just a theory...

 

[Miss24k]

Wow, very informative thread here, thanks ladies.

 

[view]

Bumpin this oldie.

 

[ASU]

So, a female with a very low estrogen level tends to have a hard time of losing body fat?

 

[Daisy_Girl]

So, a female with a very low estrogen level tends to have a hard time of losing body fat?

No, the opposite. High estrogen means hard time losing fat. Especially from hips, abs and thighs. These areas are high in estrogenic fat.

 

[ASU]

so, if a female doesnt get her monthly period due to low estrogen level.. she can lose fat faster than others?

 

[Daisy_Girl]

so, if a female doesnt get her monthly period due to low estrogen level.. she can lose fat faster than others?

Maybe. It can depend. There is more to losing fat than estrogen levels.

Losing your period is typically not a good thing.

 

[ASU]

I know that there is more to losing fat than estrogen level.. but I was just wondering if this might slow the process while you trying to lose fat with healthy diet and workout

 

[MS]

so, if a female doesnt get her monthly period due to low estrogen level.. she can lose fat faster than others?

It depends on why her estrogen levels are low. In general healthy estrogen levels are needed for optimum metabolism and appetite control, it's just that high estrogen inhibits loss of thigh and butt fat specifically. Estrogen too low can be due to low body fat in which case overall fat-burning will decline (due to low leptin), but thigh and butt fat may be relatively easier to lose, ie slower overall fat loss but more of this fat from lower body. Low estrogen due to menopause or ovarectomy also leads to impaired overall fatloss, but increased thigh and butt fat loss, thus you get the classical post-menopausal figure with skinny thighs and a beer belly.

Adequate (not too high or too low) estrogen levels, regular exercise and a good low GI diet are a woman's best defense against a whole host of lifestyle related diseases and obesity. But we live in a cosmetic society where what is 'healthy' is often considered unsightly. Go figure!

 

[ASU]

Would a high protein, mod fat (good fats), and lots veggies diet be helpful with this post-menopausal figure (skinny thighs and beer belly)

We still dont know why my estrogen level is so low...

 

[MS]

Hey there asu, wasn't sure if you were talking about yourself or a girlfriend (no gender under your handle). A little more info would be good, like how old are you, how do you know your estrogen levels are high, and are you a "skinny thighs and beer belly" kinda woman? Are you using any hormones such as oral contraceptives, HRT, etc...? Have you always had this kind of figure, or has it happened recently, and if recent, then what might have triggered it?

 

[laddie]

NO SPAMMING PLEASE.

 

[*Bunny*]

LOL spammer bumpd an awesome thread... This is an excellent read over and over again.

 

[que_66]

LOL@ the spammer.




I now understand the difference between jiggly fat and non-jiggly fat.
I thought I understood it before but this thread cleared it right up.

 

[The Shadow]

While the above is very true....also remember:

new fat - no jiggle


old fat - jiggle

 

[que_66]

While the above is very true....also remember:

new fat - no jiggle


old fat - jiggle

All of me is old & jiggly - even my fat is old



The up side is that I don't think there is any NEW fat.