Let's talk oestrogen

[Tatyana]

and progesterone while we are at it.

I have been doing a wee bit of reading about anabolic hormones and growing cattle, and from what I can gather, they always give cows testosterone (usually tren) and an oestrogen.

Typically the dose of oestrogen is 1/10th that of the testosterone.

They have found that they put on more muscle with this combination.

I know some of you have mentioned that your gains are not as good when you use an oestrogen suppressor.

If this is the case, why is oestrogen (and progesterone) considered to be the 'big bad'?

In sex hormone synthesis (this is super simplified) testosterone is derived from progesterone and progesterone precursors, and oestrogen and testosterone have a reaction that can go either way, and obviously we all know some steroids aromatise to oestrogen.

Has anyone ever considered or experimented with a similar cycle as a cow?

Or is it that the steers can't complain of gyno?

 

[bigtravis]

and progesterone while we are at it.

I have been doing a wee bit of reading about anabolic hormones and growing cattle, and from what i can gather, they always give cows testosterone (usually tren) and an oestrogen.

Typically the dose of oestrogen is 1/10th that of the testosterone.

They have found that they put on more muscle with this combination.

I know some of you have mentioned that your gains are not as good when you use an oestrogen suppressor.

If this is the case, why is oestrogen (and progesterone) considered to be the 'big bad'?

In sex hormone synthesis (this is super simplified) testosterone is derived from progesterone and progesterone precursors, and oestrogen and testosterone have a reaction that can go either way, and obviously we all know some steroids aromatise to oestrogen.

Has anyone ever considered or experimented with a similar cycle as a cow?

Or is it that the steers can't complain of gyno?

neeelllssson!!!!there is a woman in our forum.

 

[Tatyana]

LOL!

Isn't test considered one of the big mass builders because of the aromatisation to oestrogen?

 

[aquatic_glories]

well there are studies showing that you get better results from trenbolone with increased estrogen. I am sure you can find them easily. I have also heard this from a few experienced bb ers who are also doctors

 

[bigtravis]

That's a good point there "T". I did some research and they told me that they add the OESTROGEN to create a better fat ratio to give the meat a better taste.

 

[eClenbuterol]

Are we talking in just men or females as well?

 

[enacer420nj]

They probably dont care when the cows grow tits

 

[bigtravis]

She's just trying to prove us men as being inferior that we require OESTROGEN to gain mass. HA! Silly woman.
I'm going to the Womens fitness forum and ask if I were to inject a mixture of OESTROGEN and MIDOL into my manboobs will it subdue the cramps in my nips.

 

[needtogetaas]

and progesterone while we are at it.

I have been doing a wee bit of reading about anabolic hormones and growing cattle, and from what I can gather, they always give cows testosterone (usually tren) and an oestrogen.

Typically the dose of oestrogen is 1/10th that of the testosterone.

They have found that they put on more muscle with this combination.

I know some of you have mentioned that your gains are not as good when you use an oestrogen suppressor.

If this is the case, why is oestrogen (and progesterone) considered to be the 'big bad'?

In sex hormone synthesis (this is super simplified) testosterone is derived from progesterone and progesterone precursors, and oestrogen and testosterone have a reaction that can go either way, and obviously we all know some steroids aromatise to oestrogen.

Has anyone ever considered or experimented with a similar cycle as a cow?

Or is it that the steers can't complain of gyno?

Some pro bodybuilders have been quoted saying "estrogen testosteron same thing it all builds muscle). Years ago there used to be pure estrogen injects too and you bet your ass pro's were using it. There still out there but they are not as main stream.


estrogen is not the (big bad) only pricks who sell ai's and push ai's make them out to be the big bad. because they make money on it. Let the estrogen role and don't kill the gains it can bring. Only use and AI if you start to experence the bad sides from it like gyno or big time acne.

Lots of people who sell ai's love to push htat run and ai from the start of a cycle crap but they are dead wrong and they know it.

They play and scare tactic that you will get gyno if you do not use a ai from the start of a cycle. They play on the fact that some people get scared of the bloat.

The bloat comes off after the cycle people. Let is ride and use it to your advantage!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tatyana]

Are we talking in just men or females as well?

Both with more of a slant towards women.

Most think they have to get rid of their oestrogen to build muscle.

 

[Tatyana]

That's a good point there "T". I did some research and they told me that they add the OESTROGEN to create a better fat ratio to give the meat a better taste.

Oestrogen makes things really purdy too.

 

[centeroiler]

Oestrogen makes things really purdy too.

Yes, it does! On my girl it sure does anyway. Nothing worse than an overly-masculine woman. Sleek, feminine muscle, like yours is very pretty.

However, in a male I still feel that very moderate estrogen control is a good thing, for me anyways. I just don't want the bloat, BHP, Gyno, moodiness (htf do chicks live with stuff?), etc. Unless I had a need for ultimate size, like if I were entering a competition, why deal with all that when you don't have to.

LOL. I'm saying to myself: "Wtf is Oestrogen???" I did a search. I guess the U.S. is the only place that calls it just Estrogen. Go figure.

 

[Tatyana]

Yes, it does! On my girl it sure does anyway. Nothing worse than an overly-masculine woman. Sleek, feminine muscle, like yours is very pretty.

However, in a male I still feel that very moderate estrogen control is a good thing, for me anyways. I just don't want the bloat, BHP, Gyno, moodiness (htf do chicks live with stuff?), etc. Unless I had a need for ultimate size, like if I were entering a competition, why deal with all that when you don't have to.

LOL. I'm saying to myself: "Wtf is Oestrogen???" I did a search. I guess the U.S. is the only place that calls it just Estrogen. Go figure.

Women get moody when our hormones crash, so it is the lack of oestrogen, not it's presence.

Sort of like coming off a heavy cycle with no PCT.

 

[nydj66]

Women get moody when our hormones crash, so it is the lack of oestrogen, not it's presence.

Sort of like coming off a heavy cycle with no PCT.

Actually, studies show that women report feeling the best during ovulation; which is when estrogen is at its lowest and progesterone it at its highest.

PMS, on the other hand, occurs just prior to menses when progesterone is at it's lowest and estrogen is at its highest.

 

[Tatyana]

Actually, studies show that women report feeling the best during ovulation; which is when estrogen is at its lowest and progesterone it at its highest.

PMS, on the other hand, occurs just prior to menses when progesterone is at it's lowest and estrogen is at its highest.

I think you have that reversed.

 

[centeroiler]

Women get moody when our hormones crash, so it is the lack of oestrogen, not it's presence.

Sort of like coming off a heavy cycle with no PCT.

Wow, you learn something new every day. So, when my girlfriend is being a B... ah, "moody", I should maybe slip her a mickey of some estro and she'll snap out of it? haha

Seriously, I don't know about the analogy to PCT though. It seems that estrogen would be at its highest after a heavy cycle with no PCT, accounting for the moodiness. IDK.

 

[joe d]

i make suspension and prop from syno. and i do NOT use an estro solubizer. i make the prop with a simple fina kit and susp with heat ba, bb, and bac.

no complaints here. i use ai's if estro problems start and nolva or clomid if my nips get sore.

i am also gyno prone. i have used a few widely trusted ug's and comparing my own to theirs i like mine better. not to mention the saved $.

i dont understand the huge fear of estro myself. yes we dont want gyno but its not hard to kick in the ass as soon as you feal the signs.

if they only had winny, dbol, and var implants........

 

[Tatyana]

Wow, you learn something new every day. So, when my girlfriend is being a B... ah, "moody", I should maybe slip her a mickey of some estro and she'll snap out of it? haha

Seriously, I don't know about the analogy to PCT though. It seems that estrogen would be at its highest after a heavy cycle with no PCT, accounting for the moodiness. IDK.

I think that has more to do with the differences in the normal hormone profiles for men and women.

Sex hormones make our brains develop differently and express a different density of receptors in utero.

I wouldn't think that oestrogen would have entirely the same effect on a man as it does on a woman.

 

[nydj66]

I think you have that reversed.

sorry Tatyana, as a non-plat I can't really read the graph you attached but I do know that high progesterone levels are one of the ways they look for ovulation in women who are experiencing fertility problems.

Maybe it's only the ratio of progesterone to estrogen that's highest during ovulation.

 

[BigRed66]

There is evidence that estrogen upgrades the androgen receptors so you get a better reaction from gear. The best bulking stacks always include at least one aromatizable/estrogenic compound. Anadrol is one of the strongest mass builders there is and it has it's own estrogenic properties which contribute to the big size and strength gains. But, like most good things, too much is a bad thing and estrogen should always be controled depending on sensitivity to gyno, bloating, etc.

 

[aquatic_glories]

One should always keep AI on hand.
My philosophy is different.. I prefer maximum lean gains to max gains.

regarding estrogen, I prefer maximum gains with minimal side effects again over max gains.

This isnt all about maximum gains. We have an important thing called health. I can easily sacrifice some of my gains for health. I act very carefully even though I havent gone over 500 mgs of test in my 3-cycle history.
However, I can easily tell from experience that estrogen helps gains visuably.
I was too careful in my previous cycle so that limited some of my gains.

Again, always keep an AI with you. Sometimes it can be late when you have problem with your nips. You know bad things always come together and I have witnessed people that couldnt find AI or didnt have money when they had estrogen problems. Luckily nothing happened.

I believe some AI should always be used once you go above a certain limit for aromatisable compounds. There is no specific limit for everyone, however.

 

[needtogetaas]

estrogen is not bad for your heath. Yes way to high can be bad. But estrogen is good for you health.

 

[aquatic_glories]

bro normal levels are necessary I agree.
but how can you except normal levels when even a newb uses at least 500 mg test in first cycle?
that s roughly 7-10 times the normal. How can you except normal levels.

Plus I would always prefer test to be high, not estro.

 

[Nelson Montana]

.


I CAN'T BELIEVE I MISSED THIS THREAD!

Tat (hi tatty) makes a great point.

Anyone familiar with my work knows I've been a long time advocate of toning done the use of anti e's. And I absolutely HATE clomid and nolvadex. Clomid is useless and nolva should only be used if you get gyno -- which is totally AVOIDABLE.

needto touched upon the "good" estrones vs the bad. Without getting too convoluted, that's what calcium d glucarate (contained in POST CYCLE) does so well -- removes the bad stuff.

We all need estrogen! And yes, IT BUILDS MUSCLE. And it adds size. But much of that size is water -- which in itself isn't so bad since muscle is 90% water.

But here's where the whole "stop estrogen at all costs" comes in. The lower the estrogen, the "harder" the look. Because you'll carry less fat and less water. That's a touch topic to convince people otherwise. Nobody wants to carry a little extra water but during a cycle, IT ADDS SIZE, WEIGHT, STRENGTH AND MUSCLE. But realize, the reason cattle are given estrogen is because it makes the cattle weight more and it makes the meat more teder because it's more "marbled." In other words, it has more fat. It's also why women are softer than men and that's just fine with me. (As long as things don't get TOO mushy).

Tat, have you ever had your e and T levels tested? I wouldn't be surprised if your T was higher and your e was lower than the average lass. High estrogen is one of the reasons women have such a hard time tightening up.

And keep in mind -- Arnold, Zane, Draper, Sergio, Scott, et al NEVER USED ANTI E"S. They didn't exist. Nobody had gyno.

So the bottom line, like everything else, balance is the key. But when people indiscriminately use way more gear than they need, that's when they start shuffling to solutions to the problems they create. Gear use is simple, effective and safe...IF...you stay within the boundries. Estrogen is part of the balance.

 

[jacshelb]

I wouldn't say "nobody" had gyno. I know you didn't mention Columbu, but he had terrible gyno in 81 and others had a bit here and there around that time- sometimes pretty bad. But, you are making a point and I'm splitting hairs.

My thinking on it, like many others, is that estrogen should be controlled, not eliminated during a cycle. If I start to get gyno symptoms, put on fat in "strange" places etc., then it's time to take a bit of anti-e. Also, I do want to gain as little fat as possible. Don't get me wrong, I eat and I gain overall mass. But, the more of that is muscle, the less fat there is to par down later. I'd like to go into my next cycle as lean as I can, primed and ready to grow!

I know I may get blasted for this, but I have used a very small amount of letrozole eod during most of my current cycle. I just go by feel and use as little as needed, no more. I've put on 30 lbs with very little water and an acceptable amount of fat, all in 9 weeks or so. I've gotten the results I wanted.... within reason anyway.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I wouldn't say "nobody" had gyno. I know you didn't mention Columbu, but he had terrible gyno in 81 and others had a bit here and there around that time- sometimes pretty bad. But, you are making a point and I'm splitting hairs.

My thinking on it, like many others, is that estrogen should be controlled, not eliminated during a cycle. If I start to get gyno symptoms, put on fat in "strange" places etc., then it's time to take a bit of anti-e. Also, I do want to gain as little fat as possible. Don't get me wrong, I eat and I gain overall mass. But, the more of that is muscle, the less fat there is to par down later. I'd like to go into my next cycle as lean as I can, primed and ready to grow!

I know I may get blasted for this, but I have used a very small amount of letrozole eod during most of my current cycle. I just go by feel and use as little as needed, no more. I've put on 30 lbs with very little water and an acceptable amount of fat, all in 9 weeks or so. I've gotten the results I wanted.... within reason anyway.

I believe Columbo in 81 was the first obvious case of it in competition. That signals the start of the "too high" dosage era.

Estro is easy to control. Keep it between 10 and 20 -- no higher, no lower, and you're cool.

 

[Tatyana]

sorry Tatyana, as a non-plat I can't really read the graph you attached but I do know that high progesterone levels are one of the ways they look for ovulation in women who are experiencing fertility problems.

Maybe it's only the ratio of progesterone to estrogen that's highest during ovulation.

That makes more sense. If you want to see a graph, google images menstruation cycle.


Wiki has a nice graphic as well.

 

[Tatyana]

.




Tat, have you ever had your e and T levels tested? I wouldn't be surprised if your T was higher and your e was lower than the average lass. High estrogen is one of the reasons women have such a hard time tightening up.

Numerous times.

These are my last results just before Christmas.

They are approximately mid cycle (that's menstrual cycle), so my oestrogen will be at it's peak.

LH = 12.4 U/L (1-10)

FSH = 10.3 U/L (1-10)

(mid cycle levels of LH and FSH may be higher than the range)

Total Testosterone = 1.5 nmol/L (0.2-3.5)

In American units test = 43 ng/dl or 432 pg/dl

Oestradiol-17beta = 282 pmol/L

In American units oest = 104 pg/ml

Progesterone = 24.8 nmol/L

In American units prog = 7.8 ng/ml or 31.5 ng/dl

Cortisol = 424 nmol/L (170-540 early morning)

In American units cort = 15.4 ug/dL

All pretty normal and they have been stable for years and years as I don't use any hormones, pro-hormones including birth control pills.

Anabolic steroids use in animals has been banned in the EU for close to 20 years, so I don't get any from that route either.

This also demonstrates that it isn't just the hormones that result in muscle hypertrophy.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Numerous times.

These are my last results just before Christmas.

They are approximately mid cycle (that's menstrual cycle), so my oestrogen will be at it's peak.

LH = 12.4 U/L (1-10)

FSH = 10.3 U/L (1-10)

(mid cycle levels of LH and FSH may be higher than the range)

Total Testosterone = 1.5 nmol/L (0.2-3.5)

In American units test = 43 ng/dl or 432 pg/dl

Oestradiol-17beta = 282 pmol/L

In American units oest = 104 pg/ml

Progesterone = 24.8 nmol/L

In American units prog = 7.8 ng/ml or 31.5 ng/dl

Cortisol = 424 nmol/L (170-540 early morning)

In American units cort = 15.4 ug/dL

All pretty normal and they have been stable for years and years as I don't use any hormones, pro-hormones including birth control pills.

Anabolic steroids use in animals has been banned in the EU for close to 20 years, so I don't get any from that route either.

This also demonstrates that it isn't just the hormones that result in muscle hypertrophy.

Yes, it isn't JUST hormones which detwemine muscle growth and fat content. Though your levels are in the "normal" range, they're also in the "favorable" range.

Steroid use in animals would not transfer to those eating the flesh. Eating 10 pounds of meat would be equivalent to swallowing a 1/4 cc of testosterone cypionate. It would do nothing.

No birth control pills?

Cortisol is a bit high isn't it? But intense training will do that.

I suspect you have more mitochondria than most people. For those who may not ascertain from her pics, Tat has very dense, yet lean muscle.

 

[Tatyana]

Yes, it isn't JUST hormones which detwemine muscle growth and fat content. Though your levels are in the "normal" range, they're also in the "favorable" range.

Steroid use in animals would not transfer to those eating the flesh. Eating 10 pounds of meat would be equivalent to swallowing a 1/4 cc of testosterone cypionate. It would do nothing.

No birth control pills?

Cortisol is a bit high isn't it? But intense training will do that.

I suspect you have more mitochondria than most people. For those who may not ascertain from her pics, Tat has very dense, yet lean muscle.

My cortisol is good for morning cortisol, which is when it is at it's peak.

I have taken it in the afternoon when I was training hard, cycling 13 miles into work, on a comp diet, and my cortisol was lower than this.

I don't get to take birthcontrol as I have a clotting disorder, well at least the genes for it, I may clot too much, so doctors are reluctant to give it to me.

It isn't that much of an issue, there are other forms and methods of birth control.

 

[Nelson Montana]

My cortisol is good for morning cortisol, which is when it is at it's peak.

I have taken it in the afternoon when I was training hard, cycling 13 miles into work, on a comp diet, and my cortisol was lower than this.

I don't get to take birthcontrol as I have a clotting disorder, well at least the genes for it, I may clot too much, so doctors are reluctant to give it to me.

It isn't that much of an issue, there are other forms and methods of birth control.

If clotting is an issue (high platlets?) then steroids (even OTC) are out of the question for you anyway since they all tend to increase clotting.

 

[Tatyana]

If clotting is an issue (high platlets?) then steroids (even OTC) are out of the question for you anyway since they all tend to increase clotting.

I have the gene, I am homozygous, but from all the bloodwork I have done I don't express it.


What may be an issue is that won't be able to use HRT if and when I need it. Or it will be a bit of a battle.

I have a great GP though, he is really cool and keeps up with a lot of the current trends. He lets me do all my own blood work and always tells me that I know more about it than he does.







I have the gene, I am homozygous, but from all the bloodwork I have done I don't express it.

 

[jacshelb]

I believe Columbo in 81 was the first obvious case of it in competition. That signals the start of the "too high" dosage era.

Estro is easy to control. Keep it between 10 and 20 -- no higher, no lower, and you're cool.

Agreed.

This thread is actually making me re-think my decision to stop using a syno conversion for my prop. I see that the estrogen is controlled pretty easily and if it's not all bad.... hmmm... I may stick to something else pre-cycle for dieting though, less test (and clean test) with something like EQ. Interesting thread for sure.

 

[Tatyana]

If clotting is an issue (high platlets?) then steroids (even OTC) are out of the question for you anyway since they all tend to increase clotting.

I missed the high platelet thing, and no it isn't high platelets.

Coagulation is a really, really complicated cascade of enzyme reactions, platelets are just the end really. And there are two pathways of coagulation, intrinsic and extrinsic.

Do a google search, it is quite mind boggling.

I am homozygous (meaning both copies of my gene) have the mutation or defective polymorphism, for MTHFR or methylentetrahydrofolate reductase enzyme.

It is an enzyme involved in the processing of folate and the pentose phosphate pathway. It can also affect homocysteine metabolism.

The current treatment is high dose folate, B12 and B2.

I have done all sorts of blood work, my clotting times are normal, my homocysteine is normal, my folate levels are normal without supplementation.

It is thought that at least 10-30% of the population have this mutation, so it must confer some advantage somewhere. It is quite new-ish so most doctors and GPs are not entirely sure what to do about it.

This is something a lot of people don't understand about genetics.

Just because you have the mutation, it doesn't mean you will express the disease or disorder. This is referred to as penetrance. There are some mutations that have 100% penetrance, for example Huntington's. There are others that have a 50% penetrance.

There is also another genetic term called expressivity, which means not everyone will express the mutation in the same way.

For example, if you get the genetic pattern for polydactylism (mutltiple fingers and/or toes), they multiple fingers and toes do not look the same on everyone.

It may be that suffer no ill effect from it at all, it really does look that way right now, however, as this mutation is a part of my medical records, it does have to be considered in any medical treatment I have.

This is one of the issues with doing full genetic screens on people.

It is preferable to go with proteonomics, or the proteins produced by our genome, rather than the genomics, as they are not always directly related.