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Legs without Squats ?

oxymoron

oxymoron

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I've got injury prone knees. I've tried squats with wraps and braces and they still feel like hell after a few weeks. But if I still to leg press and curls they feel pretty good although I'm not sure if I'm making up for what I lose by not doing squats. Is there anyway or excercises that I can run a good routine with endangered knees by removing squats from the workout.
Currently I just make up for the squat sets with extra leg press, but I'm just wondering if there's something else out there I could be doing.:confused:
Thanks!
 
Squats are king and not only work the lower body like no other exercise can, but are an overal massbuilder. Are you 100% sure your form is spot on? If not, this could possibly be causing the knee stress. I used to have lower back and knee pain until i was taught how to squat correctly, i had to drop alot of weight and slowly built it back up.
 
Lunges might be worse on your knees than squatting. You can build big muscular quads with leg presses alone. Squats are the king though!!!
 
OxyMoron said:
I've got injury prone knees. I've tried squats with wraps and braces and they still feel like hell after a few weeks. But if I still to leg press and curls they feel pretty good although I'm not sure if I'm making up for what I lose by not doing squats. Is there anyway or excercises that I can run a good routine with endangered knees by removing squats from the workout.
Currently I just make up for the squat sets with extra leg press, but I'm just wondering if there's something else out there I could be doing.:confused:
Thanks!
Click to expand...


everything falls short to the almighty squat. in your situation you will have to make do with what you can. its always better to avoid injury. you wont get any where other than to be crippled at age 40 if you cant keep your joints healthy. explore as many different leg movements as you can making the heaviest one your base would be my advice. try out all the sissy squat machines and smith with different leg placement to. i bet you could do widow makers on a smith with your legs farther in front of you than they would be on a real squat.
 
It's water on the knee that i'm fighting with both knees and i'm nearly 40 already and they haven't gone out yet lol. I actually run 4-6 mi. 3 times a week on them. But soon as I mix in heavy ass light headed leg workouts they get really stressed. After reading what you guys are saying and doing a little thinkin here's what I might try next for quads (today actually).
10min elipitcal
20 reps Leg Press
3 x 15 reps Leg Press
3 x 8 reps Leg Press
1 x 6 reps Leg Press Negatives
6 x 6-8 reps Leg Extentions
3 x 6-8 reps Smith Squats

Taking all sets to failure with a spot.
My idea is to exhaust my legs first and then go to the smith machine squats with a lower weight. I'll try the Smith Squats at a more agreeable angle with less weight for the first few workouts and take it from there.
 
Have you tried replacing the running with a stationary bike, then try squatting? (as a test) I have had a couple reconstructive knee surgeries and running kills my knees, but stationary bike makes them feel great. I am currently squatting 3x a week which made them sore until I mixed in the bike.

IMO
 
Steps ups are good. These are used by the Eastern Europeans as a replacement for squats:

Barbell Step Ups Video & Instructions - Muscle & Strength

I'm not sure how they'd work in your specific situation. On that link I gave there's a few more exercises that might be worth finding out if they are user friendly. Front squats and Zercher squats have both been used by bodybuilders and are considered excelllent strength builders as well.
 
squats make ur ass too big and nobody cares about legs anyway. with a knee injury theres not much u can do for legs
 
OxyMoron said:
It's water on the knee that i'm fighting with both knees and i'm nearly 40 already and they haven't gone out yet lol. I actually run 4-6 mi. 3 times a week on them. But soon as I mix in heavy ass light headed leg workouts they get really stressed. After reading what you guys are saying and doing a little thinkin here's what I might try next for quads (today actually).
10min elipitcal
20 reps Leg Press
3 x 15 reps Leg Press
3 x 8 reps Leg Press
1 x 6 reps Leg Press Negatives
6 x 6-8 reps Leg Extentions
3 x 6-8 reps Smith Squats

Taking all sets to failure with a spot.
My idea is to exhaust my legs first and then go to the smith machine squats with a lower weight. I'll try the Smith Squats at a more agreeable angle with less weight for the first few workouts and take it from there.
Click to expand...

Rather than just doing differant reps with your leg presses, I would mix up the width, like narrow stance lower on the board for the front and outter quads, wider and high up on the board for glutes and inner. I would also do leg extension to high reps and squeeze your legs at the top and keep constant tension
 
fortunatesun said:
Steps ups are good. These are used by the Eastern Europeans as a replacement for squats:

Barbell Step Ups Video & Instructions - Muscle & Strength

I'm not sure how they'd work in your specific situation. On that link I gave there's a few more exercises that might be worth finding out if they are user friendly. Front squats and Zercher squats have both been used by bodybuilders and are considered excelllent strength builders as well.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with this. Step-ups are great and build stamina too, Zercher are also great.

You can do something like this:

Step ups 4x9-12 per leg ramping up the weights
Zercher Squats 4x6-8 also ramping up
Leg Presses 3x12-15 same weight

You really shouldn't do heavy negatives, plus if you care for going to total failure save it for the leg presses but with high reps and constant tension (don't force knee lockout at the top ever)
 
Do what you can when you can.

Since they only bother you when you squat...it makes me think that it is a big form issue, not a knee or exercise issue.
 
Which would be worse on the knees, given you're using good form? Squats or Lunges? I would think squats just because of the mucher higher weight when divided by 2.
 
OxyMoron said:
Which would be worse on the knees, given you're using good form? Squats or Lunges? I would think squats just because of the mucher higher weight when divided by 2.
Click to expand...

Lunges are worst as they place stress directly on the knees.
, also if you have knee problems you're just compounding your problem by running, that will tear down your knees faster than anything else.
I would Switch to biking,if you want cardio.
Another thing that would help is supplementation of Glusomanine Suflate, MSM, and add some jello to your diet 3 x week,Gellatin has shown to repair & lub the spongy cartlidge bet the bones.

When i do get an aggrivating kink i use stopain.com best stuff i have found.

I'm 57 and never had any joint issues I still squat in the 400's also.

Squats are the most demanding exercise out there, it taxes the whole body, Produces Adrealine & HGH!
That is what make it the supreme mass builder.
Start with just the bar and slowly work your way up-tomorrow's another day!


RADAR
 
b fold the truth said:
Do what you can when you can.

Since they only bother you when you squat...it makes me think that it is a big form issue, not a knee or exercise issue.
Click to expand...

exactly. most guys that have knee issues are not squatting low enough. if your not doing a FULL squat (i mean ass to grass), your knees take a beating.
 
MsBeverlyHills said:
exactly. most guys that have knee issues are not squatting low enough. if your not doing a FULL squat (i mean ass to grass), your knees take a beating.
Click to expand...

I squat wide, shins straight up and down, and they haven't bothered my knees in years. I do front squats about 1-2x per month, but try to sit back on them too.
 
A properly performed full squat is neutral on the knee joint. I think there is a form issue at play here.

B-
 
Running beats the shit out of your body, literally tears it down. There's a lot of other exercises that give you a good cardio workout that won't pound your joints to hell. Think aquatic, swimming, stuff like that.

Water on the knee is not a disease condition by itself, it's a symptom of something else, it could be tears of the ligaments or tendons, or it could be early onset arthritis or other shit. You need to get figured out what caused the condition before you can get rid of it. Until you get that problem straightened out, you shouldn't be doing ANYTHING demanding with your legs, running or weights, all you're doing is compounding the problem and you might just cripple yourself permanently if you keep it up.
 
musclemom said:
Running beats the shit out of your body, literally tears it down. There's a lot of other exercises that give you a good cardio workout that won't pound your joints to hell. Think aquatic, swimming, stuff like that.

Water on the knee is not a disease condition by itself, it's a symptom of something else, it could be tears of the ligaments or tendons, or it could be early onset arthritis or other shit. You need to get figured out what caused the condition before you can get rid of it. Until you get that problem straightened out, you shouldn't be doing ANYTHING demanding with your legs, running or weights, all you're doing is compounding the problem and you might just cripple yourself permanently if you keep it up.
Click to expand...

Running kills my knees!!!

I have an elliptical machine at home.
 
b fold the truth said:
Running kills my knees!!!

I have an elliptical machine at home.
Click to expand...
Me too and a recumbent bike. I have noticed that an elliptical can put some lateral stress on your knee joints, particularly if you've been away from it for a while. I confess, cardio is NOT my favorite activity :rolleyes:
 
Bike and swimming are good for cardio without pounding your joints like others have said. If you have water on your knee you should look into getting it drained and find out what the cause of the issue is.
 
musclemom said:
Me too and a recumbent bike. I have noticed that an elliptical can put some lateral stress on your knee joints, particularly if you've been away from it for a while. I confess, cardio is NOT my favorite activity :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I eat in excess of 6,500 calories a day and I'm around 295 lbs. I have a hard time gaining AND I hate cardio. I guess I need some though.

It bothers your knees? I use mine on the easiest setting possible and normally just go for 500-1,000 steps. 100 on, 30 sec rest, 100 more, repeat.
 
b fold the truth said:
I eat in excess of 6,500 calories a day and I'm around 295 lbs. I have a hard time gaining AND I hate cardio. I guess I need some though.

It bothers your knees? I use mine on the easiest setting possible and normally just go for 500-1,000 steps. 100 on, 30 sec rest, 100 more, repeat.
Click to expand...
It bothers my knees for like the first week or so when I've been away from it and start back doing it regularly. I don't count my steps, I start on the lowest resistance and the comfortable incline (mine has electric incline) and just go until I need a breather and get back and plug away at the thing until I'm sick to death of it. It hits me along the inside of the knee joint, right next to the patella.

I'll tell you one thing, though, it definitely improves my deadlifts and biking when I stick with it. For a while I was doing it with a weighted pack on my back and it works a whole other set of muscles, very interesting. I think it's the best cardio machine out there but I curse it, too, y'know?
 
You are a genius! I need to put some weight in my back pack and try that!

Or I could just hold my son...right?
 
b fold the truth said:
You are a genius! I need to put some weight in my back pack and try that!

Or I could just hold my son...right?
Click to expand...
I think you might find it pretty hard with a weight in front, really screwy weight distribution. People are designed to carry weight more comfortably on their back.

You could try piggy backing him! He'd probably giggle at first, then get bored :FRlol:

BTW, you're the first person who I've mentioned this to that thought it was a cool idea.

I would warn you, if you do try this, test the waters with the weight, don't move up too fast, you might be surprised how it feels the day afterwards, how demanding it can be.
 
My elliptical says max weight of 120 kgs (265 lbs) so I'm already pushing IT at 295.

How much weight do you like to pack on you?
 
b fold the truth said:
My elliptical says max weight of 120 kgs (265 lbs) so I'm already pushing IT at 295.

How much weight do you like to pack on you?
Click to expand...
Yeah, you are, seriously. Step ups with a weighted pack might have the same effect, but not HIGH step ups, just like climbing stairs or something ...

I haven't done it recently, but the most I ever put in was either a 10 or 20 lb plate. I only had a backpack and the bottom started to tear out :rolleyes: I think a weighted vest would do better but that's not in the budget these days.
 
When a weight doesn't move, no work is done. There is a big difference between a weighted weighted vest and walk or jogging, compared to wearing one on the treadmill or elliptical. The weight doesn't have to move forward, your just holding it up.

Not to say there is anything wrong with weight a weighted vest on an elliptical, it will add some extra resistance, but you might as well just up the resistance on the machine. That's what it's there for.

To add to the scope of this thread, The OP should focus his efforts on recovery and rehab, so that one day, he can squat pain free again.
 
Jocques Straap said:
When a weight doesn't move, no work is done. There is a big difference between a weighted weighted vest and walk or jogging, compared to wearing one on the treadmill or elliptical. The weight doesn't have to move forward, your just holding it up.

Not to say there is anything wrong with weight a weighted vest on an elliptical, it will add some extra resistance, but you might as well just up the resistance on the machine. That's what it's there for.

To add to the scope of this thread, The OP should focus his efforts on recovery and rehab, so that one day, he can squat pain free again.
Click to expand...
It's hard to explain, I wish someone else would try it, seriously and report back to me.

As for upping the resistance on the machine, that's there too, but it doesn't do the same thing, if that makes sense.

Totally agree with where the original posters priorities need to lie. A lot of things just keep getting worse the longer you put them off.
 
I plan to try it Monday MuscleMom
 
I'll give you guys a brief history which i shoulda done when i started the thread. I had horrible knees after football and track in highschool, i think the diagnosis was chondro malasia patella (sp), torn knee cartilage. So long ago, i might be wrong tho. I switched to limited range exercises per the doc and layed off impact cardio and only worked legs with leg press, extensions, hack squats....up until about 33 yrs old. Then a new girlfriend was gonna run a 5k at 9min/miles and told me I could watch w/ her mom if i wasn't up to it. Well... you can guess what happened. So 3 yrs later and I'm running 5 mi/dy at 4 days a week and zero problems, but as soon as I do leg presses at real crazy intensity for 6-7 sets I can feel my knees get really pissed off. So i'm guess squats will really jack them. I'm thinking I can stick to the presses, but was just hoping that there was something excercise-wise that I was missing to amp up my routine other than squats/lunges. I really want to keep running because I fucking love it now, almost an addiction. Plus my another new girlfriend wants to race me in a 15k end of May.

edit:
Thanks some much for the input people! A big fear is being one of those huge upper body cats w/ chicken legs.
 
Are you doing any deadlift variations? This might be what your looking for.

That's quite a bit of running.

So you've never done squats before? Have your tried front squats?

I despise the leg press.

Since you can run with no problems, leads me to believe that your knees are OK. They just aren't use to the stress that a leg press or squat will put on them. Keeping the knee behind the toe will help to keep some of that stress off the knee. If you stick with the leg press, move your feet a little higher on the board. This will take some of the stress off your knee, and place it on your lower back. lol. but seriously, it may help.

Try the front squats. Great exercise. Hell, front squat/deadlift. Hard to beat that combo for legs.
 
OxyMoron said:
So 3 yrs later and I'm running 5 mi/dy at 4 days a week and zero problems, but as soon as I do leg presses at real crazy intensity for 6-7 sets I can feel my knees get really pissed off.
Click to expand...

6-7 sets at real crazy intensity?
 
OxyMoron said:
I switched to limited range exercises per the doc and layed off impact cardio and only worked legs with leg press, extensions, hack squats
Click to expand...

It figures a doc would tell you to do this. All three of these are the kings of shearing action on the knee. Despite their expertise in surgery, there are very few docs that know shit about exercise physiology or even how a complex movement like a squat actually works.

Your body was made to squat down and pick heavy shit off the ground. When it does this, the affect on the knee joint is neutral. The exercises you mentioned only incorporate limited leg muscle groups, and actually increase vulnerability to knee injury.

No wonder why your knees feel like shit after doing them.

B-
 
I have a sick 14 month old...hardly left him today. Will try it soon.
 
bblazer said:
A properly performed full squat is neutral on the knee joint. I think there is a form issue at play here.

B-
Click to expand...


I do agree that proper form squats do NOT hurt good knees, but I for one completely shattered my right patella (kneecap) in a 2001 car crash and it is still totally fucked. I still squat but its hell on my right knee. It never bothers my left knee, but my right will be in pain for days. I can't ever squat more than once a week simply because my right knee hurts so bad afterwards. It also fucks up my muscle development in my right leg, the difference between my inner quad muscles on the left and right side is pretty atrocious.

If this guy has injury issues then I think thats a whole different story B.
 
musclemom said:
It bothers my knees for like the first week or so when I've been away from it and start back doing it regularly. I don't count my steps, I start on the lowest resistance and the comfortable incline (mine has electric incline) and just go until I need a breather and get back and plug away at the thing until I'm sick to death of it. It hits me along the inside of the knee joint, right next to the patella.

I'll tell you one thing, though, it definitely improves my deadlifts and biking when I stick with it. For a while I was doing it with a weighted pack on my back and it works a whole other set of muscles, very interesting. I think it's the best cardio machine out there but I curse it, too, y'know?
Click to expand...

The backpack is a good idea. I just threw some things in the kitchen in my backpack and made it 10 minutes last night HIIT and my legs were pumped and worked well!
 
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