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Lat-Pulldowns or Pullups instead ??
- Thread starter SirDingo
- Start date
awhile back one guy said his goal was 50 pull ups in the shortest amount of sets possible.. might have been 100.. i dont remember.. anyway i normally do like 3 sets of 10 and dont feel it the next day but if i go til i hit 50 my lats are gonna feel good the next day.. u might be above 50 or below. but if found that with pull ups working to failure on every set does great. or just do both or weighted pull ups
This is a very individual thing and depends on one's strength to weight ratio.
For me, pulldowns are the way to go.
Whenever I add pullups to my routine, it usually doesn't take long before I get an injury in my elbow. This is probably because of my 250lb bodyweight, which effectively means I'm always working in a heavy load range. Sooner or later a weak link gives out due to overtraining.
I don't have the benefit of starting out light and working up as I would in bench press, squats, deadlifts and of course pulldowns. If I had to start my bench workout at 250lbs, I wouldn't last long either.
If I do want to do pullups safely, I do it as the 2nd or 3rd exercise into my back workout when I'm very warmed up. (usually after rows and pulldowns). At that stage I'm only able to do sets of 5 - 8 reps and I'll stick to 3 or 4 sets.
For me, pulldowns are the way to go.
Whenever I add pullups to my routine, it usually doesn't take long before I get an injury in my elbow. This is probably because of my 250lb bodyweight, which effectively means I'm always working in a heavy load range. Sooner or later a weak link gives out due to overtraining.
I don't have the benefit of starting out light and working up as I would in bench press, squats, deadlifts and of course pulldowns. If I had to start my bench workout at 250lbs, I wouldn't last long either.
If I do want to do pullups safely, I do it as the 2nd or 3rd exercise into my back workout when I'm very warmed up. (usually after rows and pulldowns). At that stage I'm only able to do sets of 5 - 8 reps and I'll stick to 3 or 4 sets.
That's the very reason why I never do pullups before pulldowns, but even then, I don't find the pulldown prepares me well for pullups. I just find them far more joint intensive. What I really like about pulldowns is that you can easily do controlled cheating to work past your strict rep limit.
I wish I had one of those assisted pullups machines for warmups.
I do underhand chins on the pullup bar, But if I where do overhand pullups Id use the pulldown, I cant do enough pullups to feel it all, I can only do like 5... and when I do underhand chins on the pulldown machine I just dont get the same bicep and forearms pump as I do on the pullup bar...
+1
That's what I do...nuless you suck at pullups, then stick to pulldowns...go very heavy!!! (look at my back)
My wings are getting there, you bat-stard.
I am now on 300lbs for pulldowns on 10 reps. That's the whole stack. I'll have to start piling on plates on the weight pin to bump up the weight.
It would be more impressive if you hung a 75lb db from your waist and did sets of ten.
I have not got much growth from pulldowns. Even aproaching the whole stack rest paused. Chins, pull ups, and rack chins work best for me.
I totally agree.
2evil
Well-known member
artificialaspirations
New member
gjohnson5
New member
Pull ups aint nothing even for myself 220lb
At heavy weight you have to cheat too much to get the weight down on pulldowns... I find them to be a warm up at best
All that means is that you're using too much weight. If you can't strictly handle your bodyweight on pulldowns, you're not going to be doing good bodyweight pullups either.
I don't find any difference in my strength between the two and that's really how it should be. (of course there is a slight difference because when you pullup you're not pulling your entire weight because your forears are not going up).
The main difference is that you cannot position your body and arms as favourably on pullups because your body position moves as you pull yourself up.
gjohnson5
New member
That's one interpretation
My interpretation was they don't do jack at lighter weights....
If pulldowns with light weight build mass for you , then good
The second sentance is completely incaccurate
So you're saying that when you pullup, you can keep your body at a precise postion in relation to your arms and back?
That's easy to achieve doing pulldowns. You can easily position yourself anyway you please. i.e. In a more upright postion, or more laid back depending on how you want to target your back. In the laid back position I don't use light weights, but weights approximating my bodyweight and up.
Anyway, this pullups V's pulldowns argument has been done ad infinitum on every message board.
I prefer pulldowns and they work better for ME. Each to their own.
gjohnson5
New member
I made no such issue....
That's the issue I was making which you promptly put down as inaccurate.
i.e. The lat pulldown allows precise body positioning which is impossible on a pullup because your legs are swinging freely.
gjohnson5
New member
Which is the reason I called it inaccurate
I actually find that a pull-up forces your back to be in proper postion in relation to your arms when performing a rep.
If you're swinging all over the place, something is wrong with what you are doing.
The "proper postion" will depend on what area of the back you want to focus on. It's easy to change that on pulldowns, especially with the availability of many different attachments.
gjohnson5
New member
I really didn't want to get into this , but your responses are lacking in any experience and don't seem to add up at all to what your saying.
I does not matter if you are doing neutral grip pull ups , pronated grip pulls ups , chin ups , or behind the neck pull ups. Your point about the legs swinging freely has no bearing at all on the grip or the effectiveness of pulls ups vs pull downs
The point I was making is that back exercises generally involve some cheating to pull the elbows back (and thus complete the rep). It doesn't matter if your talking about barbell rows , dumbell rows , or pull downs , generally some pivoting of the back is used to get the elbows back in pulling motions. IMHO light weight pull downs are ineffective in building lats as the weight doesn't provide enough stimulus to build mass. At a weight that does provide enough stimulus to build lats (in my case 250+lb for a 210 lb guy) requires a good cheat at the top of the pulldown by the back to get the elbows down
I've been experimenting with pulldowns and pullups since August 1976, and I've come to the conclusion that pulldowns are the more effective of the two FOR ME. I still do pullups from time to time to add variety, but pulldowns and rows are the meat n' potatoes of my back workouts.
I think at this point we should just agree to disagree because I could have a field day with all the inaccuracies in your latest offering.
Peace, and happy training to you bro!
You just don't let up do you? Some arguments cannot be won and often people don't accept losing, so it's better to leave it alone.
I'll leave you with a transcript from Lee Haney's training video. Perhaps you may give more credence to the owner of one of the best backs ever. At the very least you'll see I'm not alone in my preference for pulldowns.
Lee Haney's Mr Olympia Workout (1988)
Now, the basics for back are pulldowns, T-bar row, barbell row...which is bread n' butter, and then of course your chins which is generally a warm up exercise. Some people like doing chins, some people don't. Ah..from day one I did not include chins in my back training..but from now, from time to time I do include chins. I mean it's not everday you want to jump, swinging out, weighing 260 lbs.
For beginners I would advise doing first pulldowns behind the neck or pulldowns in front...being a very basic movement. I prefer pulldowns in front because I'm able to isolate a little more.
Westside Barbell also prefer pulldowns over chins:
Training The Back by Louie Simmons
Chins are great either with weight or without. But to be honest, we don’t do them very often.
Everyone does lat pull-downs at Westside, but the Westsider with the strongest lats told me pull downs don’t help his lat strength as much as rows.
http://www.westside-barbell.com/Articles%20Top%20Ten/PDF.Files/03PDF/Training%20The%20Back.pdf
I'm pretty fond of the Hammer Strength row myself, unfortunately I don't have a pull-over machine to use. Sometimes I'll throw in DB pullovers.
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Yeah I meant DB pull overs those are great! I think someone can build a fairly decent back with machine exercises and add deadlifts to keep it real.
gjohnson5
New member
And the above has what do do with the discussion???
You said if one cannot do pull downs , then cannot do pull ups either. Your own quotes seem to say the opposite. The legs swinging freely has absolutely NOTHING TO do with Lee Hayne of Westide preferring pull downs to pull ups.
How many 300lb people do you see doing pull ups anyway?
Grip and energy expenditure are IMHO bigger issues.
The swinging can be controlled with good form
Anyway I didn't say lat pull downs didn't work, I said they don't work FOR ME...
I wish I was on some West Side steroid dosages as well I could probably get a lat pump from turning over in my bed.
*edit*
I don't seem to be reading anywhere that these guys go light with thier pull downs either
That was the second issue I raised
*edit*
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You're still going...and still very confused.
This thead is about preference of either lat pulldowns or pullups, so the Lee Haney and Westside Barbell comments were right on topic.
Let's take some of your comments one at a time (your comments in blue):
1. "You said if one cannot do pull downs , then cannot do pull ups either."
I never said anything like that. I don't even understand what you mean by it.
2. "How many 300lb people do you see doing pull ups anyway?
Grip and energy expenditure are IMHO bigger issues."
Since when was I discussing 300 lb people. I weigh 250 lbs, Lee Haney mentioned he weighed 260 lbs in his training video.
Grip problems can easily be solved by the use of straps.
3. "NOTHING TO do with Lee Hayne of Westide preferring pull downs to pull ups"
It's Lee Haney who is the 8 time Mr Olympia winner from 1984 to 1991. He does not work at Westside Barbell. The other statement was made by Louie Simmons, a famous powerlifting coach and owner of the world famous Westside Barbell Gym in Columbus Ohio which is home to many of the world's top powerlifters.
4. "I wish I was on some West Side steroid dosages as well I could probably get a lat pump from turning over in my bed."
Are you suggesting perhaps that lat pulldowns are only effective on large doses of steroids and that is why they prefer lat pulldowns over pullups at Westside Barbell?
5. "I don't seem to be reading anywhere that these guys go light with thier pull downs either
That was the second issue I raised"
Since when have I suggested going light on pulldowns? The trick is obviously to use the RIGHT amount of weight to enable the exercise to be preformed in good form to isolate the upper back muscles. I use up to 280 lbs on pulldowns, and bodyweight plus 20 lbs on pullups. That's not light for me, but perhaps you would consider it light. What is light and heavy is relative to a person's strength and has absolutely nothing to do with this argument.
...and finally,
6. "The swinging can be controlled with good form"
Sure it can be controlled within reason, but not when a person is reaching for those last few reps before impending failure. My argument was that body position is easily controlled on pulldowns as your legs are pinned down.
I would hope we can finally lay this to rest, but somehow I feel you'll be back with more "inaccuracies".
gjohnson5
New member
It's called a thread not a thead...
I'm finding that the confused person is you.
Those comments have nothing to do with your post in which you decided to chime in and contradict yourself
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/w...wns-pullups-instead-626533-2.html#post8606869
First you said that lat pulldown strength is basically equal to pull down strengtth. They you said that you cannot position your body properly in pulldowns despite the contradiction that your pulldown strength is equal to your pullup strength. If that were true , then you should have no positioning problems at all.
Yes you did. Reread the contradiction above
IMHO there are plenty of 300lb people in Westside barbell. You did bring them into the discussion didn't you with comments that you say are on topic correct?
We've had threads on this topic before. Infact I remember making one years ago and several people into powerlifting said that they think pullups were not necessary. IMHO the size of the person has alot to do with the preference. If this is true , why would anyone go through the trouble of strapping themself to a pullup bar? In many case the bar is high above the head to a point that wrapping the straps around the bar would be a terrible inconvience. This doesn't seem to make sense considering those people felt pull ups were not necessary in the first place.
LOLOLOL
The "of" should be an "or" and I did not say Lee Hayne works for West Side barbell. Secondly I am aware of who Louie Simmons is.
They are not effective for me and I'm natty. I'm not the youngest guy in the gym either. Pull downs would be alot more effective IMHO juiced... But that's me
BS
The arguments raised by others were that pull downs were not effective. I clearly explained why I don't find them effective for me and the weight vs form argument is the exact reason. Lighter weights don't provide enough stimulus for my lats to grow and heavy weights require some back movement for the bar and the elbows to come down properly. It would be an arm exercise if not. The idea is to work back , not biceps
BS again
If you say your strength is equal in pull ups and pull downs then there should be no swinging in pullups at all. If your form is good on one (which you are implying that it is) then it should be good on the other if the above is true
This is the same contradiction as above
gjohnson5
New member
LOL I made this thread 4 years ago
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/diet-bodybuilding/over-250lbs-doing-pull-ups-338482.html
Not note the responses of the 250+ lb people. I think it's just the blood and oxygen requirements for them to pullup thier own body weight against gravity. Not to mention the orthopedic issues of the shoulder, arm and wrist supporting the person's body weight. They are just inconvenient for heavier people. However I bet those people can lat pulldown some serious weight AND for reps.
*edit*
This is a much better explanation of why Ronnie Coleman and WestSide Barbell don't do pullups
in response you your quotes here
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/w...wns-pullups-instead-626533-4.html#post8608002
*edit*
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/diet-bodybuilding/over-250lbs-doing-pull-ups-338482.html
Not note the responses of the 250+ lb people. I think it's just the blood and oxygen requirements for them to pullup thier own body weight against gravity. Not to mention the orthopedic issues of the shoulder, arm and wrist supporting the person's body weight. They are just inconvenient for heavier people. However I bet those people can lat pulldown some serious weight AND for reps.
*edit*
This is a much better explanation of why Ronnie Coleman and WestSide Barbell don't do pullups
in response you your quotes here
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/w...wns-pullups-instead-626533-4.html#post8608002
*edit*
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wheyman090
New member
both is better than 1
Once again, it is you that is confused.
1. My strict pulldown strength IS equal to my strict pullup strength. My cheating pulldown strength is equal to my swinging/cheating pullup strength. This is not rocket science because the same muscles are working the same in both movements.
2. Good positioning is much easier to achieve on the pulldown. You cannot maintain exact positioning when your legs are free to move.
Why are you confusing these 2 points?
I think you would be right, but there will also be plenty of lighter people there as well because they cater to all weight classes of powerlifters including females. According to Louie Simmons, they hardly ever do pullups. He said nothing about the lighter guys doing them and the heavy guys not doing them.
If you made only one spelling error in your sentence, I may have seen it as a typo, but the whole sentence was riddled with "inaccuracies".
Using straps on pullups is a very easy process. I do it myself and have never considered it to be a " terrible inconvenience".
This is absolute nonsense and hardly worth discussing. How could you possibly believe this?
What's a thead?
1. My strict pulldown strength IS equal to my strict pullup strength. My cheating pulldown strength is equal to my swinging/cheating pullup strength. This is not rocket science because the same muscles are working the same in both movements.
2. Good positioning is much easier to achieve on the pulldown. You cannot maintain exact positioning when your legs are free to move.
Why are you confusing these 2 points?
I think you would be right, but there will also be plenty of lighter people there as well because they cater to all weight classes of powerlifters including females. According to Louie Simmons, they hardly ever do pullups. He said nothing about the lighter guys doing them and the heavy guys not doing them.
If you made only one spelling error in your sentence, I may have seen it as a typo, but the whole sentence was riddled with "inaccuracies".
Using straps on pullups is a very easy process. I do it myself and have never considered it to be a " terrible inconvenience".
This is absolute nonsense and hardly worth discussing. How could you possibly believe this?
This is a seperate issue. I have no disagreement with anything you've said here. I was merely indicating some other reasons why pulldowns are superior in general. You've been trying to make points by misquoting what I've said and then building your arguments against those misquotes.
