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Lagging Lower Half

VooDoo Lady

New member
I *need* to get my legs and bottom caught up to my ripped /muscular upper body ( :D :rolleyes: ) and I'm not really making much progress.....

Can you guys help me with a plan of attack?

At this point I am doing a heavy leg day (deeeeeep squats, ham curls, leg extentions, leg press, standing calves) and I have added walking lunges and calves on a second day.

My diet has been cleaned up for a few weeks now, (cleaned up from my bulking phase)....

I am doing minimal cardio - I am afraid that I am not going to be able to make significant progress with my lower bod w/out cardio.

What can I do differently to start to see some significant progress??

Thanks...
:)
 
VooDoo Lady said:
I *need* to get my legs and bottom caught up to my ripped /muscular upper body ( :D :rolleyes: ) and I'm not really making much progress.....

Can you guys help me with a plan of attack?

At this point I am doing a heavy leg day (deeeeeep squats, ham curls, leg extentions, leg press, standing calves) and I have added walking lunges and calves on a second day.

My diet has been cleaned up for a few weeks now, (cleaned up from my bulking phase)....

I am doing minimal cardio - I am afraid that I am not going to be able to make significant progress with my lower bod w/out cardio.

What can I do differently to start to see some significant progress??

Thanks...
:)

If the upper is ripped, andf I have seen pics - it is...then the lower is a result of Estrogen related issues.

Try some Yohimburn.

NYC as the Yohimmbine is good at breaking down those sticky fat deposits.

I think the leg w.o look fine. Try adding some all-out sprints on a cardio day.

The sprints+yohimburn+NYC = results.



Now - I have also had some good results with women crushing up some T-3 and doing trans-dermal application - but save that for later.
 
Welcome to the wonderful world of estrogen! I have the same problem. As we all know, you lose bf proportionally around your body so if ya gots more on the bottom, the bottom will be the last to "disappear". So one part of the answer is to trust in that rule and keep up the diet, cardio, etc. Its the last to show so it gets frustrating.

I'd like to hear anyone's comments on these evil super sets my trainer was assigning me to deal w/ big butt & thighs - note this as 10 weeks out from target comp date. The goal is no longer to build but to cut. Mon, Wed and Fri consisted of a 4 exercise super set similar to the following:

AM: 1 hr cardio
PM: 30 min bike cardio warm up
Training: repeat superset 3 x
- 5 min step mill doing double steps for "lunges"
- leg ext: 20 (both legs), then 10 / 10 , 5/5 , 2/2, 1/1 alternating legs
- leg curl: same as leg ext
- leg press: 30 reps

Then another smaller body part (abs, calves, whatever)

The other days were 2 remaining body parts per day, generally higher rep, lower weight, short set intervals, totals of 1 hr & 45 min of cardio, 1 day off

So the interesting difference (aside from the psycho cardio) was the inclusion of cardio machines in super sets and also 3 days of legs, but going for cutting & not building.

Another thing I just added for bun cutting is using the single grip or an ankle strap on the cable frame, standing on a Stepper step and doing alternate leg kick backs - both directly back & to the side.

Thx for reminding me about the sprints Corn! I'm not doing the psycho cardio and the interval training will probably get me better results more quickly.
 
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ANother thing to consider might be doing the legs exercise in a giant fashion.

DEEP squats
Stiff Deads
leg curls


- as a giant set with no rest between - 4 cycles of 12-15 reps each



Lunges
Leg extensions
Leg Press


----ditto


Of course you would do legs twice per week.....one quad centered and on ham centered - add the sprints and realistically w/o an estrogen modulator - that's the best you can do.
 
By the ripped and cleaned-up diet comments I assumed she wanted to lose fat and perhaps slightly de/over train to some extent....
 
:o SHE is the cats mother :D

I guess you're not clear on my goal, because I'M not clear on my goal.

I've cleaned up my diet and lowered the total cals/carbs a BIT because I do want to lean up a bit for summer. I'm not crazy cutting....

I DO need to build my legs...but I believe I'm a wee bit more focused on getting rid of persistent fat on my bottom/hips/thigh area at this point.

So, I am assuming a clean diet (not necessarily a low cal/carb diet) along with more intense training and MAYBE increased cardio is going to do the trick...

I'm really asking for some help in laying it out....a plan of attack if you will :)
 
VooDoo Lady said:
:o SHE is the cats mother :D

but I believe I'm a wee bit more focused on getting rid of persistent fat on my bottom/hips/thigh area at this point.


Check over my giant set recommendations......
 
Another thing I just added for bun cutting is using the sstanding on a Stepper step and doing alternate leg kick backs - both directly back & to the side.


Hey Sassy what about a stairmaster?

Thanks CC
 
...you know - that's the GOOD thing about hitting yourself in the head with a hammer - it feels SOOO good when you stop......




'
btw - stair climber will reduce the teardrop if anyone is interested
 
VooDoo Lady said:
Gladiola will get it :lmao:
Indeed, I was already chuckling at the first sight of it.

I still think you need more variety in your training. Giant sets sound good. Do you ever do split squats? (Yeah, I know, they're kinda girly). I also like the double steps on the step mill idea & the idea of doing legs 2X per week.

How about plyometrics? You could also do cardio in forms that'll challenge your legs differently - like cardio kickboxing - to give your legs more variety. Cycling?

How about trying Power Cleans?

Quick thought here - aren't odds good that you will always have SOME fat on your hips & butt unless you get like single digits bf%? & you don't plan to do that this summer, do you? So if you're going to have SOME fat there, wouldn't you body be more porportional (since that's your goal) with more lean mass in your lower body? So couldn't you keep the focus on gaining LBM, & with keeping your diet in check & doing cardio- keep total bf the SAME -> resulting in your goal of still having the ripped upper body & a more ripped *looking* lower body?

Am I making any sense here?
 
Do you ever do split squats? (Yeah, I know, they're kinda girly).

Ahem. Many Olympic lifters will perform them, specifically to strengthen the ability to receice the jerk. In the days where the split syle was more common in both the snatch and the clean, they would often be done by athletes who used these styles, including the great Norb Schemansky, who would perform them with nearly 400 lbs.
 
All I was looking for was a critique of my lower body work out.

I realize I can't spot reduce, I realize I can't cut and bulk at the same time. But I *think* it's possible to maximize the effects of my workouts by making sure I'm doing the right types of excercises in the right order on the right days incombination with a clean diet and mabye adding some cardio to make a difference in the appearance of my lower body.

That's all I was asking.
 
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Are your legs lacking in overall development, or is it one area, such as great quad development and poor hamstrings?
 
VDL -

Has your training in the past not been equally productive on both upper & lower body (i.e. "slackin"??) or your lower half isnt' responding to building? If you are training at the same capacity for all parts of your body, being a woman, you will most likely have more body fat in those estrogen-related places, and not necessarily just unbuilt legs. Equivalently, you will probably have less body fat on top, look more ripped and thus more muscular.

If you can honestly tell yourself that your lower body training could've been more intense in the past, then definitely focus on jacking up the intensity, etc so it can "catch up". Your body fat may or may not drop more in those areas.

If you are simply just needing to drop some more bodyfat in those areas to expose the already very nice muscle underneath, then take the cutting approach. This takes a little more patience to see the results.

CC - I posted a sample superset -- I did variations of this 3 days /week. Each session started with 30 min bike warm up and continued right into the first cardio machine for 5 min, then the rest of the exercises, repeat 3x for a total of 45 min cardio + lifting. Monday was step mill, Wed was stair master, Fri was treadmill. This is what I followed & what was available in the gym. You could substitute any cardio machine as far as I'm concerned.
With your intensity girl I can only imagine that you need to cut a little more. Your upper body may get even more ripped but you'll start to see more muscle come out on your legs if u keep up the cutting. :)
 
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VooDoo Lady said:
making sure I'm doing the right types of excercises in the right order on the right days
Not tryin' to get you more frustrated - but there is no such thing. Honestly, there is no one right formula that is the proper thing. & even a formula that IS a great & effective formula becomes a relatively poor one over time once the body adapts.

I still really think you just need to shake up your leg workout. Pick some totally NEW stuff that is appealing to you & start adding it in. I vote for plyometrics - a pretty big change from all your typical heavy lifting & something you'd probably enjoy. You may end up recalling that you enjoyed JUMPING a lot in your former cardio-queen days (OOPS! :dodgy: Did I just "out" you? :lmao: )
 
Sista don't do so many isolation movements as they will only contribute to over training , will not give definition(thats genetic and diet related) and they will build NO MASS.

You need to work legs heavy, strict, infrequent, lowish volume and with a full range of movement.

Try this....

Three warm up sets of squats in the 5-8 range....don't go hog wild on the reps and DO NOT tire yourself. Then do 2 sets of full squats shooting for 12-5 reps and never lower than 10. Upper legs grow best on highish reps. Squat until the top of the thigh is parallel to the floor or very slightly lower....this is way lower than most people go. If you go ALL the way down you could injure your lower back. Use a belt on your 2 work sets.

So after your progressive warm up sets jump right to your TOP weight and grind out 12-15....this is very hard work and requires much deep breathing between reps as the going gets really tough( above 6 reps) Squats can be pushed a long time like this...just don't give up.Rest about 4 minutes and then repeat but this time with a little less weight. If you use the same weight for the second set and manage to get 12 then you certainly didn't go all out on the first set. You could do 15 for the first set and then keep the weight the same for the second set and shoot for 10-12

Next do 2 work sets of deep leg presses...try to touch your kness to your shoulders. Hammer and Nautilus make the best machines but some regular sleds are okay too. Reduce the weight on the second set. There is no need for warm ups. So many people do this exercise wrong...they pile on the plates and then do half reps and think they are cool.....WRONG WRONG WRONG! Do full range reps and you will grow a nice pair of legs and butt.

Next sit against the wall for 5 minutes!!

The next exercise is BY FAR the best ham/lower back builder and works the butt well too. Stiff leg deadlifts!!
Use a regualar grip and with wrist straps. Keep your knees very slightly bent. DO NOT GO ALL THE WAY DOWN as you will screw up your back in time and I don't care how flexible yoy are. Go down to mid shin. Keep the back flat...the movenment starts with the hips and butt going straight back with a pivit at the hip.

Do a modertae warm up of 8 reps slowly then do two working sets of 10-12 reps...do them slowly and very strictly. Go hard but not to absolute failure for safety reasons...again most people do these wrong as they go too low, don't use enough weight and have terrible form, and also do not work them hard. Take several deep gulps of air between reps as the going gets tough.

. You shold be able to SLDL for reps almost as much as you squat for reps.
Next do 1 set of leg curls ALL OUT at 10-12 reps.
DONE UPPER LEGS!

Calves...do 3-5 sets of heavy donkeys for 10-15 reps...work very hard and also include partials. After going to failure put the weight down for 10 seconds and then do more reps...repeat again....THE PAIN! You could also do heavy deep standing calf raises or toe presses in the leg press machine.
These exercises work the ENTIRE calf, including the soleus...no need foer seated calf raises.


Remember for all leg work you need to take a very deep breath BEFORE going down...so take a very deep breath AND HOLD IT as you go down...then after the sticking point your exhale focefully.

Lunges are popular but are a waste of time and energy IMO. Squats and leg presses do far more for the entire upper leg. hips and butt. Leg extensions are good for rehab only or if doing pre-exhaust super sets.

Do this leg routine no more frequently than once every 5-6 days and even every 7 may be needed for recovery reasons...6 is a good bench mark.

Rely upon diet for definition. Unfortunately thigh/hip/butt fat is the last to go in most females.
 
Well VDL here is the advice from Mount Assmore, if it means anything. :D

For your longterm goal of lean and more muscular looking legs i think you should not think about the extra fat there just now. You know that significant more muscle in the legs makes everything down there look leaner then it actually is. I was not too so terrbily lean in my ass foto but everyone seems to think i look lean. Big muscles = lean illusion

Oke go and lean up a little bit, then do another bulking phase and really concentration on your leg training. I say lean up a bit because you probably would really be unhappy there with the amount of fat once you done the next bulking cycle. Set a realistic goal of a certain number of pounds or inches to add to your thighs and calfes.

Think about what you want for the long time. More musclar and ripped legs. Make the steps towards that bit by bit that need to be taken.

For you leg workout, please can you say more about it in detail? Sets, reps, amount of rest bet sets? Every set to failure or not? etc. Also how long have you done the same leg workout without training it? How much leg gains would you say you made on your last bulking phase?
 
LOL! My mom used to say exactly the same thing! "SHE" is the cat's mother, then we'd all meow. Ha ha.

Hey, VDL - I'd say go in there and just do full heavy squats til you can't squat anymore - various rep ranges, then burn things out with the other stuff - split squats, front squats, leg press, leg ext, etc, followed by light hams. Then next time do heavy hams first - pull throughs, good mornings, SLDL's, curls, followed by light quads. The heavy/light alternate thing really gave me my first real gains ever.

I read in the Poliquin book I'm reading right now that women's lower bodies respond less rapidly to training stimulus than their upper bodies, or compared to men. Another female curse.

Good luck, girl, kick that curse in the ass! I'm right with you on this one - my next goal is pants-splitting quads, to balance out my pants-splitting waistline, bwaa haaa ha ha hah.
 
In addition to squats, do you also perform, not necessarily all at once:

Front squats
Split squats
Good mornings
Ham-glute raise (or approximation)
Reverse Hypers (or approximation)
Sumo deadlifts
Pull throughs
Stiff legged deadlifts or RDL's ccan be executed with a sumo stance as well.
 
You know that significant more muscle in the legs makes everything down there look leaner then it actually is. I was not too so terrbily lean in my ass foto but everyone seems to think i look lean. Big muscles = lean illusion

Yep, yep, yep! That's what I thought anyway :)

For you leg workout, please can you say more about it in detail? Sets, reps, amount of rest bet sets? Every set to failure or not? etc. Also how long have you done the same leg workout without training it? How much leg gains would you say you made on your last bulking phase?

My leg workout is LAME...I'm embarrassed to reveal it....BUT here goes..

7 sets of Squats (2 light warm-up) 10 reps I increase weight each set and the last 2 sets are usually 8-10 range - to failure.

5 Sets ham curl machine starting with 12 reps usually ending with 8 - to failure

5 sets leg extensions - again, starting with 12 reps, ending with 8-10 - to failure

4 sets of standing calves - 10 reps

I've been doing this same routine FOREVER - thus me asking for *help* :)

That's it folks....which is why I am asking for help in redesigning my program. Regardless of my food intake (bulking/cutting) I lift the same way...and this workout is NOT working...

Thanks so much to everyone who is helping me out on this...you're time (and, *patience*) is appreciated and rest assured your advice will NOT go to waste :D
 
VDL-
IMO that volume for the leg workout is kinda high - but I'd be anxious to hear Arioch's take.

Lemme know if you want to attempt cleans while you're here this weekend. I certainly don't feel qualified to teach them, but I can show you the bit of basics I know. & the good thing about the OL lifts is that if you mess up - YOU KNOW without being told! :)
 
VDL, i agree with the others that comment that your volume is rather high. I have said this before in other posts, your bb workout should always be a sprint not
a marathon. Absoulute maximum intensity for a very brief period of time. Try one warm up set and 2-3 work sets to aboulute failure, maybe even rest/pause a few reps after each set.

Start with this and see what happens. :D :D

BTW, where are all those nekkid fotos you said you were going to send me?? ;)
 
Yeah, that looks like quite high volume, but I say if you're handling it with 100% intensity, then don't stop. I don't think high volume NECESSARILY=low intensity. It depends what one can handle. Everyone's different.

Anyway, like I said in another thread, I'm reading Poliquin's "Reps and Sets" right now. He gives some GREAT rep and set variations for busting through plateus.

Like Arioch said, pick some other nice compound type movements in addition to squats, then play with the reps and sets. I did a routine with back squats, front squats, stationary lunges/split squats, finishing off with leg presses (did the W6 50-rep thing once overy 2 weeks on this). Hams were GM's, pull throughs, with hmstr curls too on heavy days, or days I felt like more. Calves I change up a lot, but I did the Poliquin routine that MS posted in spatts' hardgainer's calves thread. That was KILLER, but good. Sorry, I didn't measure, and was dieting at the time, so I can't tell you about progress.

Anyway, back to rep variations - Poliquin has this thing called the 4-5 percent solution. Magdelana, you might wanna try this for your bis, too. I know I'm gonna try it on various movements.

Basically, you increase the amount of resistance by 4-5% every workout whilst simultaneously doing one less rep per workout, so by the end of 6 workouts (the length of the programme), you'll have increased your strength (and thus your ability to increase hypertrophy through using higher resistance) by 10%!!

Choose a 3-rep wide bracket (3-5, 4-6, 6-8), then stick with that range for the 6 workouts. Time under tension should remain the same for the 6 workouts, too. For muscle mass, the average set should last 40 seconds, so you arrange the tempo of each rep to come out to that total, like 4 secs eccentric, 1 sec at the bottom, 2 secs concentric, 0 secs pause at top, repeat.

Rest for 3-4 mins between sets. Don't use the 4-5 percent solution for more than about 2 exercises. Use it on compound movements. I intend to try this on my initial exercise, always a compound move, for each bodypart, then probably range the reps higher for the other movements.

Here's a sample - you come back to the same rep number again in w/o 4.

W/O 1
4-5 setsx7 reps@100 lbs

W/O 2
Increase weight by 4-5 percent and do one less rep per set:
4-5 sets x 6 reps @ 105 lbs

W/O 3
Increase weight by 4-5 percent and do one less rep per set:
4-5 sets x 5 reps @ 110 lbs

W/O 4
Use the weight used in w/o 2 for the 1-rep target:
4-5 sets x 7 reps @ 105 lbs

W/O 5
Use the weight used in w/o 3 for the 2-rep target
4-5 sets x 6 reps @110 lbs

W/O 6
Increase weight by 4-5 percent and do one less rep per set:
4-5 sets x 5 reps @ 115 lbs

You might not be able to achieve the rep target in every set, but so long as you hit your goal on the first set of every workout, you're doing fine.

The 4-5 % solution as applied to squats:
When you squat, you lift the barbell plus 75% of your bodyweight, so you should adjust poundages accordingly. So, for a 200lb athlete squatting 350lbs for 5:

weight increase = 5% (load of barbell + (75% x bodyweight))
weight increase = 5% (350lbs + (75% x 200lbs))
weight increase = 5% (350 lbs + 150 lbs)
weight increase = 25 lbs

Seems complicated, but if you work it all out beforehand, when you're planning your workout, it shouldn't be too much of a hassle, and you'll have very concrete figures to aim for.

Let me know if you try this - I'm going to start tonight. Will let you know if I'm busting out of my pants in a few weeks! :D
 
Sure, but anyone who's been on these boards a while knows by now that everyone's different, and that you should try stuff to find out how it works for YOU. VDL knows that - she's not a newbie. Anyone with half a brain can surely figure out that if they can't lift the weight they're "scheduled" to lift, then they can't lift it, and shouldn't lift it.

That doesn't negate the validity of Poliquin's programme - I'm sure he, as one of the best and most successful *strength* coaches alive, is aware that following a programme to the letter is likely to result in injury, or at least demotivation. The above was offered as a guideline, with a sample to show how it works. To suggest that that is EXACTLY how it will go in real life is simplistic.

Spatts, I think you have mentioned numerous times that if your poundages don't go up on almost a workout by workout basis, you are disappointed.
 
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spatterson said:

In terms of applications to VDL, she's not trying to make strength gains. The cat's mother is trying to make size gains.

Yes, I know. That's why I said "For muscle mass, the average set should last 40 seconds" - time under tension. Poliquin lays this out better than my summary of his ideas - lower time under tension results in greater relative strength gains because of stimulation of fast twitch fibres, more time under tension, and more variation of rep ranges, results in greater muscle mass gains. It says choose a 3-rep range - one could choose 12-14 reps if one wanted to. The reps ranges given were samples.

Isn't intensity defined as a percentage of one's 1RM? The higher the percentage, the greater the intensity, and the greater the CNS involvement, and the heavier, relatively speaking, the weight.

Sorry, I missed the long article - we posted at the same time. I'll read it now.
 
spatterson said:
Let me know what you think of the article. I have read Poliquin and Simmons, and would be interested in a decent compare and contrast thread if you'd like to read both and discuss them. :)

I'd love to, and I've actually been over to the WSB site a few times to check things out there, but the truth is, I've only just started reading more of Poliquin - I've only read articles and some stuff on his website up to now - I've tried unsuccessfully to get a copy of The Poliquin Principles, still on a waiting list at Amazon. I think a thread would be a great idea, though, because there are at least 2 well-respected people on this board I know of who have used Poliquin's ideas very successfully.
 
spatterson said:
Personally, I like to read it all

This is me. If I could somehow squeeze more time into the day, or read like those people with photographic memories, I'd be a blissful woman. The only thing I read that's not somehow connected to bodybuilding or nutrition nowadays is the newspaper. Obsession manifests in so many ways ...

Anyway, with regard to VDL's actual question here, VDL, I think anything that you do now that's different from what you were doing before, with optimal intensity and adequate nutrition, will kick you into a growth cycle. Even small changes, like the rep scheme, grip/foot placement, etc, can provoke progress.

It looks like you need a big change, though :)

I think that's a big basis of the Western periodisation method - simply, the body adapts and needs to be stimulated in different ways to evoke new progress. Even Dave Tate agrees with this:

"The Shock Micro: This micro cycle is designed around shocking the body into new growth and adaptation. This shock can come in many forms and can range from taking a week off to a high volume training cycle. "

Spatts, I'm gonna do some extra internet reading this w/e, then let's get that thread up and see what everyone has to say about it. :)
 
Let me know what you think of the article. I have read Poliquin and Simmons, and would be interested in a decent compare and contrast thread if you'd like to read both and discuss them.

So would I. Guess who I am generally in favor of?
 
SteelWeaver said:


Yes, I know. That's why I said "For muscle mass, the average set should last 40 seconds" - time under tension. Poliquin lays this out better than my summary of his ideas - lower time under tension results in greater relative strength gains because of stimulation of fast twitch fibres, more time under tension, and more variation of rep ranges, results in greater muscle mass gains.


Exactly why I recommend either:

SLower reps
More reps

...on exercise that have a short stroke like calf raises and ab work
 
Arioch said:
Hannibal, did the other kids only pick on you because you were smarter than them?

:)

Well they used to...but they don't any more :mad:
 
voo doo what exactly is lagging?do you have too much thigh fat, not enough muscle there, or what? i may have the same problem.
 
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