is there a way to speed up reflexes?

[Yarg!]

ok, a kick boxer from the iranian national team was working out at my gym. we started conversation and he told me his profession and what not... he was large , but not bulky- very fit. as the conversation progressed, i asked him to show me a few moves - jsut cuz i was curious, he tells me to punch him in the face as hard as i can. i ask him if he was sure, and he says yeah, so i punched him as hard and fast as i could: complete miss. he says go again, miss, miss miss... none of my punches hit him, he kept dodging left and right. this guy was one FAST mofo, tell me how do martial artists get so damn quick? i also see on UFC, gracie- untouchable, and cro-cop, also even, boxers- unfriggin touchable. im about to start brazillian jiu jitsu in about 1 week, and i was just wondering how these martial artists, do it.

 

[wtlftr]

genetics and auto-nomic reactions

 

[Judo Tom]

olympic lifting and agility drills..

 

[Roidboyz]

I don’t know what your background is so no offence but your inability to hit him might well be that you are telegraphing your punches and don't even realize it. If that is the case and the person who your punching knows how to read your “tell” you will never connect. A single straight punch delivered to someone who is expecting it and knows your target with no fake leading is about a zero percent deal. Trust me I know what I’m talking about. I think any of the other fighters on this board will back me up on this. As for increasing your reflexes I would say that you can’t however, I think building muscle and cardio endurance along with training in the arts and learning to set up your opponent with a good fake will increase your connect percentage.

In short you really didn’t have much of a chance of hitting him. Hope this helps.

 

[Yarg!]

yea i know im a pussy lol, but like 5 punches in a row and one after the other - thats kinda crazy. plus the iranian national team, so the guy must have some dexterity. also seasoned boxers/ other martial artists I have seen, have some crazy dodging/blocking.

 

[Roidboyz]

no doubt. I wasn't trying to bust your chops or slight the guy you were talking about, just trying to point out something you might not have thought about.

 

[Subzeero]

i would say reflexes are genetic/hereditary as well. But that doesn't mean, dodging solely reuires them. Its specially easier to make an aggressor look slow when you are on the defense. Its how to percieve a blow, connect straight lines and make sure your face isn't there. The guy was smart to tell you to hit him as hard as u can. You could have probably connected in weaker but quicker blows. I have been a hockey goalie. Its not all reflexes but most of it is prediction. You get better at it with practise.

Ps. If u are gifted with reflexes, you would allready know it. And i doubt that u would still be able to connect on that guy.

 

[KOArtist]

sometimes what u think are fast reflexes, are just the person seeing your shoulder move and being trained to instinctively slip a punch when they know it's coming. So it's kinda more like "technique through repetition" (and you telegraphing your punches) more than the person having inhuman reflexes, although some people do indeed have ridiculous reflexes (like an early Roy Jones, Pernell Whitaker, etc.)

 

[Bam]

sometimes what u think are fast reflexes, are just the person seeing your shoulder move and being trained to instinctively slip a punch when they know it's coming. So it's kinda more like "technique through repetition" (and you telegraphing your punches) more than the person having inhuman reflexes, although some people do indeed have ridiculous reflexes (like an early Roy Jones, Pernell Whitaker, etc.)

Actually the person on defense ALWAYS has the advantage....
When you attack me if I am on the defense I will be able to see and react to your move in advance... That is to say that your energy precedes your fist and I can react to that energy befor your body gets to me. Simple Physics, Not a mystery or magic but the laws of physics.

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

A simple single or double leg takedown will supercede that law of physics anytime if properly executed. Now tell me, am I wrong?

The person on defense is usually the loser when 2 trained fighters go at it because if you aren't attacking you're generally evading and blocking his energy and are vulnerable to dammage. Now alot of guys say well I will use his motion to throw him, or wait for him to make a mistake or this or that, but in real life that rarely happens, and while you're on the defensive you're getting your ass pummeled to a certain extent.

It's always better to make the first move. Especially if you can misdirect their attention and get a blind shot in first. Once you move you gotta go at it with everything you got.

Technique, experience, speed are all great, but alot of times a fight will end very quickly because one guy is bigger, stronger and more agressive than the other guy.

Technique and speed can win a fight almost instantly, but so can strength and power.

Better yet, how about just not fight, and if you have to fight just poke him in the eye and run. It works.

 

[Bam]

A simple single or double leg takedown will supercede that law of physics anytime if properly executed. Now tell me, am I wrong?

The person on defense is usually the loser when 2 trained fighters go at it because if you aren't attacking you're generally evading and blocking his energy and are vulnerable to dammage. Now alot of guys say well I will use his motion to throw him, or wait for him to make a mistake or this or that, but in real life that rarely happens, and while you're on the defensive you're getting your ass pummeled to a certain extent.

It's always better to make the first move. Especially if you can misdirect their attention and get a blind shot in first. Once you move you gotta go at it with everything you got.

Technique, experience, speed are all great, but alot of times a fight will end very quickly because one guy is bigger, stronger and more agressive than the other guy.

Technique and speed can win a fight almost instantly, but so can strength and power.

Better yet, how about just not fight, and if you have to fight just poke him in the eye and run. It works.

Not necessarally, It depends on the skill of both parties involved. I would much rather be on the defensive anytime.

You are right about the poke and run tactic in certain cases and of course to fight in any case should be a last resort.

 

[philipusmcr]

Reflexes have some to do with blinking. Blinking slows the average person down quite a bit. To get rid of this I flick my eye lashes and splash water by clapping my hands together into my face. You would be suprised how much easier it is to see things, and how much easier it is to evade a punch or kick if you arent blinking. And like somebody said above, telegraphing can give all of what ur gonna do in advance so he knows what ur gonna do before the punch is even thrown. Although, there are guys out there who can, in our eyes, dodge a frigin bullet. thats genetics.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I see everyone talking about genetics being key to reflexes, but is this really the case? I mean, perhaps your beginning ability will be hereditary, but can't one train themselves to become more reflexive, just as much so as the next guy?

 

[Bam]

I see everyone talking about genetics being key to reflexes, but is this really the case? I mean, perhaps your beginning ability will be hereditary, but can't one train themselves to become more reflexive, just as much so as the next guy?

Awareness and sensitivity will build greater speed in your actions taken in response to an outside stimulus.

 

[teep]

Mixed talk

As I posted on the other thread you can look there for part of this comment. There are several components to what everyone is lumping into reflex: most of what people are talking about on this thread is about perception. There are specific ways tgo train that. Visual cues and visual tracking skills can be increased and will make incredible differences.

As for the being on defense is better--no it is not. I would say that you have not been with high level opponents (world class and others know) that the first to move is ahead--you have to play try to catch up. Have you tried to catch the dollar bill when it is let go right above your hand? Also when tired the reaction time slows so much that initating wins every time. Have you noticed why Tyson was winning in his early years? or Joe Frazier? Or Rocky Marziano (undefeated btw)?

Training is comples and has to be sequential in its approach. Problem is that too many people try to do what they think is right without any sort of data to support their doing it.

Again research and you can find answers to the specifics--I am just here to let you know that it does exist.

 

[Bam]

Re: Mixed talk

As I posted on the other thread you can look there for part of this comment. There are several components to what everyone is lumping into reflex: most of what people are talking about on this thread is about perception. There are specific ways tgo train that. Visual cues and visual tracking skills can be increased and will make incredible differences.

As for the being on defense is better--no it is not.
Thats your opinion and you are entitled to it.
I would say that you have not been with high level opponents
You have no way of knowing who or what I have trained with.
(world class and others know) that the first to move is ahead
Not true, Again only your opinion.
--you have to play try to catch up. Have you tried to catch the dollar bill when it is let go right above your hand?
This has nothing to do with what I was speaking of. A dollar bill has no energy preceeding it like a human has so that is a completly usless analogy.

Also when tired the reaction time slows so much that initating wins every time. Have you noticed why Tyson was winning in his early years? or Joe Frazier? Or Rocky Marziano (undefeated btw)?

Boxing is not the same as an attack by anyones standards.

Training is comples DID you mean Complex? and has to be sequential in its approach. Absolutly 100% incorrect.
Training is as individual as the people who are doing the training.

Problem is that too many people try to do what they think is right without any sort of data to support their doing it.

You have no data to support that and it is irrelevant to the subject of reflexes.

Again research and you can find answers to the specifics--I am just here to let you know that it does exist.

Thanks for your "letting us know".

 

[teep]

Since you won't tell us that you are a worl champion I think it is safe to say you are not.

Where are you training and with whom? Not answering is not going to help your case.

Sure, post your research data. I can bring a whole load of eastern bloc research to support what I say.

So you discount boxing or the simple fact of reflex speed in the dollar bill--of course that means your idea carries more weight than others.

Support your argument.
As for you personal contention that defense is begtter: Love to hear your record as a professional fighter--since you must be one, right? Vague asnwers aren't going to prove anything.

ON this thread as in athletic training centers for world class and Olympic atheletes (have you gone to one) it seems that you are the only one that thinks that waiting for someone to pull the trigger is better than pulling the trigger (sorry if you think the analogy is not isomorphic).

Dig through the Soviet research to validate in a verifiable non ancedotla manner. Or go talk to any Dutch Kick boxing trainer or the Kronk Gym, etc.

Nice discounting of Rocky Marizzano--avoid it at all costs.

 

[Bam]

Since you won't tell us that you are a worl champion I think it is safe to say you are not.

Where are you training and with whom? Not answering is not going to help your case.

Sure, post your research data. I can bring a whole load of eastern bloc research to support what I say.

So you discount boxing or the simple fact of reflex speed in the dollar bill--of course that means your idea carries more weight than others.

Support your argument.
As for you personal contention that defense is begtter: Love to hear your record as a professional fighter--since you must be one, right? Vague asnwers aren't going to prove anything.

ON this thread as in athletic training centers for world class and Olympic atheletes (have you gone to one) it seems that you are the only one that thinks that waiting for someone to pull the trigger is better than pulling the trigger (sorry if you think the analogy is not isomorphic).

Dig through the Soviet research to validate in a verifiable non ancedotla manner. Or go talk to any Dutch Kick boxing trainer or the Kronk Gym, etc.

Nice discounting of Rocky Marizzano--avoid it at all costs.

I don't need to prove anything. I do not attend or participate in tournaments and never said I did.

If you read the original post carefully you will see that the question did not relate to tournaments or professional sports but used an example of one martial artist demonstrating his ability to defend against an attack from another person.
My whole point is that I agree with the martial artist. I can and have avoided being hit by an attacker including an attack with a knife and I did this while being on the defensive posture.
I am a martial artist and have trained with the highest ranking Sensi outside of Japan in my art. I have also trained with the Grand Master of that art.
The test for 5th degree Black belt in this art is to avoid a sword strike from behind while kneeling in Seiza and with the attack coming silently at an unknown time from the Grand Master himself.
This requires an accute command of awarness skills and the control of timing. This is the whole key to this type of response. I do not believe in ever attacking another for any reason other than self defense including the attempt to prove my skills in a match or tournament. By the way we also train in dis-arming attackers with firearms. This more that any other tequinique requires control of timing.

 

[teep]

Sport

The first post was talking about sport fighting and athletes in various disciplines of it this is why we all continued in this vein.

It is always easy not to compete--I think reading of Bruce Lee will give adequate comment on that subject.

Best gun disarms and best techniques ever were pioneered by two men in the USA--guess what? They used an empirical method to arrive at the techniques.


Under this reflex talk there has been all of the following:

movement speeed
Choice reactoni,
perception,
visual processing
mental selection
visual tracking
afferent to effernt traiining
hard wiring of the nervous system

all of these are specific and individual points to improve the potential that is in each person with their own genetic envelope.

There are sequential methods to improve all of these parts (that is what the Eastern Bloc Sports Scientists did). Not to believe in this is to have never seen the 50 foot shark.

Empricial methods always beat randomn "felt it in my gut" training.

And before any sort of other comment is made--yes, I do get paid to enhance those learning strategies (i,e, visual processing, tracking, afferent to efferent, hardwiring, etc)

The first question to ask is what am I tryhing to improve and why?

From there a professional can design a protocol.

Hope that makes it clearer this time around for you.

 

[Bam]

Re: Sport

The first post was talking about sport fighting and athletes in various disciplines of it this is why we all continued in this vein.

It is always easy not to compete--I think reading of Bruce Lee will give adequate comment on that subject.

Best gun disarms and best techniques ever were pioneered by two men in the USA--guess what? They used an empirical method to arrive at the techniques.


Under this reflex talk there has been all of the following:

movement speeed
Choice reactoni,
perception,
visual processing
mental selection
visual tracking
afferent to effernt traiining
hard wiring of the nervous system

all of these are specific and individual points to improve the potential that is in each person with their own genetic envelope.

There are sequential methods to improve all of these parts (that is what the Eastern Bloc Sports Scientists did). Not to believe in this is to have never seen the 50 foot shark.

Empricial methods always beat randomn "felt it in my gut" training.

And before any sort of other comment is made--yes, I do get paid to enhance those learning strategies (i,e, visual processing, tracking, afferent to efferent, hardwiring, etc)

The first question to ask is what am I tryhing to improve and why?

From there a professional can design a protocol.

Hope that makes it clearer this time around for you.

You may believe as you wish. Your statement "Empiricial methods always beat random feel it in my gut methods" only shows you lack of understanding of the energy involved and the ability of each of us to use this to an advantage. You may have had some successes, but your methods are not the only way to accomplish the goal and are not the answer for many of us Including the worlds best and most accomplished Martial Arts Masters.

 

[teep]

The easy way out

Well, let's look at it like it really is, okay?

You don't compete ergo no data for your training protocols.

You are not a professional who gets paid on performance standards of raising the performance of other athletes (thus your statements have no merit).

You are not part of a gym that regularly produces winners (thus no data to support the gyms techniques--take a look at Kronk Gym for boxing, Mejiru Gym for Muay Thai, Vos Gym for Muay Thai, etc.--but then again you don't compete so you have no data).

This is not my opinion it is fact. There are those that defintely produce results: Louie Simmons in Power Lifting, for example. They do this by their methods that are sequential and scientific.

Eastern Bloc countries were successful with their protocols.

Data is there for those that are successful.

Bruce took a dim view on "Masters of Oriental martial Arts" I share that for the same reasons that he wrote. Those reasons can be found elsewhere so I will not write them here.

Everyone is a champion sitting at home in their safe chair not competing.

Tradition never competes with result driven training.
And there is no "defense" against the facts of data. And in that data is all there is--you either have it or you don't. Either you produce winners or you don't. Either you deal with successful methods or you don't.

 

[Bam]

Re: The easy way out

Well, let's look at it like it really is, okay?

You don't compete ergo no data for your training protocols.
Like I said, I have no need to prove anything.

You are not a professional who gets paid on performance standards of raising the performance of other athletes (thus your statements have no merit).

Your statement that a "non professionals" statements have no merrit is simply ignorant.

You are not part of a gym that regularly produces winners (thus no data to support the gyms techniques--take a look at Kronk Gym for boxing, Mejiru Gym for Muay Thai, Vos Gym for Muay Thai, etc.--but then again you don't compete so you have no data).

My "Data" comes from the worlds most expirenced and well known Martial Arts Masters. They are FAR more credible that a nobody such as yourself.

This is not my opinion it is fact. There are those that defintely produce results: Louie Simmons in Power Lifting, for example. They do this by their methods that are sequential and scientific.

I never said thet training in your methods does not produce results, I did however state that there are other methods that are more effective and are available to everyone regardless of where they train.

Eastern Bloc countries were successful with their protocols.

So are the Masters from all over the world.

Data is there for those that are successful.

Data has nothing to do with success. It is simply "Data". It is there not for a special group of people (this again is ignorant). Data is there because people produced it with some form of study and or expirement.

Bruce took a dim view on "Masters of Oriental martial Arts" I share that for the same reasons that he wrote. Those reasons can be found elsewhere so I will not write them here.

Bruce Lee's was very fast but a few of his students who have far surpassed his training and skills can refute that.

Everyone is a champion sitting at home in their safe chair not competing.

I never claimed to be a "Champion". It has no value to me.

Tradition never competes with result driven training.

Skills and use of natural resources can be a "Tradition" but are also actually an ongoing fact used by many of the worlds most accomplished Masters. Tradition as used by you here is an inaccurate description.

And there is no "defense" against the facts of data. And in that data is all there is--you either have it or you don't. Either you produce winners or you don't. Either you deal with successful methods or you don't.

Data needs no "Defense" Data is simply available information. I am not trying to "Produce winners". I am as I have stated several times simply making a point for those that are interested on the subject.

You seem to have a need to prove your self to the readers of this forum. You speak of all these "Facts and Data" but you offer no real "Facts and Data".
I suspect that since you charge people money for your services (Which is fine) that your initial reason for coming to this forum is not for edification but to sell your business.

And looking at your posts you are new here, with only a few posts to your credit which only strengthens the theory that you are trying desperately to discredit me in an attempt to gain some sort of validation here.

This is silly since I have no need to sell or prove anything. I simply enjoy sharing my ideas with the regular readers here and in a few other forums on the EliteFitness site.

I hope you are sucessfull in your business and continue to grow and learn about the things you are currently missing in your very narrow view of the world.

 

[teep]

Glad you agree

Glad to see that you agree you are aan amateur and I am a professional. Rather be considered in the crowd of a Louie Simmons than someone who can only offer ancedotal information. As for edification--seems like your mind was already made up with the tradition that you have been handed.

Once again thanks for drawing everyone to the fact of your non-professional standing. It helps understand your posting.

 

[Sinar]

Re: Glad you agree

figured i'd put my 2 scence in. ok, i don't really think you can "train" to get your relexes up, its more of a natural thing. for example, i'm not fast at running or anything but one of the few compliments my gym teacher gave me (he hated me for some reason.......have no idea why) is that i had good reflexes. but, there are ways to make yourself better but its hard to do. relexes are really how your body naturally reacts when something unexpected happen. like, i fell of a ladder while i was standing at the top and without thinking, i reached out and grabed a beam and to the hammer in my other hand and grabed the beam with it. so, since it has to be unexpected you can't really increase it by normal means. the best way would probably to be get into fights. not saying pick fights or anything but like get a friend to spar with you or something but have it full out contact. that away you can't really expect where he is punching. also, and this might sound weird, get good with speed reading....litterally, being abel to read fast. i picked up a book one time when i was at the library cause i was bored waiting for my ride and it was a speed reading book. the drills they had you do was look at one word on the paper and tell what the 2 words on each side were. i was surprised that i could actually speed read easy. also, since your at your computer, stare at the screen and without moving your eyes, pick out everything thats on your desk. the reason why i'm saying this is cause you have to be able to see more than what your used to to have good relexes. it works, i know. i was sitting at my computer and it didn't even register that my speaker was falling (small speakers) and my hand just kinda shot out and caught it. i looked at my hand like WTF? and then saw the speaker. perefial vision is important (i am a terrible speller lol. so, thats basically the only ways that i think you can actually improve upon your reflexes. if you want to just look like you got good reflexes, improve your speed. but, thats a whole nother topic.

 

[Bam]

Re: Glad you agree

figured i'd put my 2 scence in. ok, i don't really think you can "train" to get your relexes up, its more of a natural thing. for example, i'm not fast at running or anything but one of the few compliments my gym teacher gave me (he hated me for some reason.......have no idea why) is that i had good reflexes. but, there are ways to make yourself better but its hard to do. relexes are really how your body naturally reacts when something unexpected happen. like, i fell of a ladder while i was standing at the top and without thinking, i reached out and grabed a beam and to the hammer in my other hand and grabed the beam with it. so, since it has to be unexpected you can't really increase it by normal means. the best way would probably to be get into fights. not saying pick fights or anything but like get a friend to spar with you or something but have it full out contact. that away you can't really expect where he is punching. also, and this might sound weird, get good with speed reading....litterally, being abel to read fast. i picked up a book one time when i was at the library cause i was bored waiting for my ride and it was a speed reading book. the drills they had you do was look at one word on the paper and tell what the 2 words on each side were. i was surprised that i could actually speed read easy. also, since your at your computer, stare at the screen and without moving your eyes, pick out everything thats on your desk. the reason why i'm saying this is cause you have to be able to see more than what your used to to have good relexes. it works, i know. i was sitting at my computer and it didn't even register that my speaker was falling (small speakers) and my hand just kinda shot out and caught it. i looked at my hand like WTF? and then saw the speaker. perefial vision is important (i am a terrible speller lol. so, thats basically the only ways that i think you can actually improve upon your reflexes. if you want to just look like you got good reflexes, improve your speed. but, thats a whole nother topic.

Interesting Sinar, If you read my first post in this forum you will see that I mentioned "Energy" that precedes the strike. You speak of "Natural reactions" that are really explained by your sensitivity to the energy surrounding you at all times. This energy warns you of the impending event weather it be an attack or the possibility of hitting the ground during a fall. You also speak of "seeing" things around you and aside from peripheral vision you can sense what is around you at any time using the energy there and therefor "Increase" your reaction or response time to the external event by having an increased awarness.

 

[Roidboyz]

sometimes what u think are fast reflexes, are just the person seeing your shoulder move and being trained to instinctively slip a punch when they know it's coming. So it's kinda more like "technique through repetition" (and you telegraphing your punches) more than the person having inhuman reflexes, although some people do indeed have ridiculous reflexes (like an early Roy Jones, Pernell Whitaker, etc.)

Thank you , Thats exactly what I was trying to say.

 

[teep]

The difference

What you are talking about is perception. What to be keyed into; what is extant and what is not.

All of these skills can be taught. They increase performance a huge amount.

Definiton of the event is the first step in isolating skills to be improved.

 

[Bam]

Re: The difference

What you are talking about is perception. What to be keyed into; what is extant and what is not.

All of these skills can be taught. They increase performance a huge amount.

Definiton of the event is the first step in isolating skills to be improved.

Who are you replying to here?

You did not identify who "YOU" is.

 

[teep]

Re: The difference

Who are you replying to here?

You did not identify who "YOU" is.

Well that would be to KO Artist and Roid who agreed with the statement.

 

[Bam]

Re: The difference

What you are talking about is perception. What to be keyed into; what is extant and what is not.

All of these skills can be taught. They increase performance a huge amount.

Definiton of the event is the first step in isolating skills to be improved.

OK You use the word "Perception" I use the word "Awareness".

The meanings are similar but not quite the same. Perception in this context reflects the act of viewing an action or movement of your oponnent while awarness is the sensing of that movement without actually "seeing" it with your eyes.
I spoke of this earlier using the reference of the 5th degree test with the sword. Using awarness gives the user (the one on the defense) a time advantage over the defender that waits to react until he or she "sees" the movement. Simple but true and has been used for centuries.

 

[Dirk Howat]

.


Reflexs are in your mind. Therefore, you need to understand fighting. Watch a shitload of fights, what fighters throw, their combos.

Reflexs are also enhanced by drills. Boxing drills. Your partner throws a jab, and you block it, duck, bob. Not knowing when he is going to throw it is part of the drill. Your job is to defend it, by eluding it and countering it.

So practically, get the fundamentals down and do alot of sparring. You have to get to the point where everything is natural, easy and you can read his mind.



Also work on your flexibility. Speed is relevent towards reflexes, so you do not want any tension impeded you from going from point A to point B.





.

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

So Bam, you are saying you have a 5th degree in bujinkan ninjutsu?

So Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi deliverd the blow huh? They use a wooden sword I believe although the first few actually did it with a real sword.

The way you said it's all about awareness skills and timing is incorrect. He will make you do it again if he thinks you're trying to hear it or feel. When you dodge it it is supposed to just happen with no particular effort from yourself. That's why you're supposed to relax and clear your mind when in seiza. At least this is what I have read. The bujin are supposed to protect you if they feel you are worthy.

Who is the top ranked guy outside of Japan nowadays? Is it Bud Malmstrom in ATL, georgia or Doron Navon in Europe?

I've got practically every legitimate book on ninjutsu ever written and I would love to train with a great instructor on the west coast, but have no clue who is around. I would honestly like to make it a permanent part of my life just like lifitng weights is. I've been collecting them since I was 9 years old lol.

How is Dr. MAsaaki doing. He's getting really old now, although I hear he is spiritually as powerful as ever.

 

[Bam]

So Bam, you are saying you have a 5th degree in bujinkan ninjutsu?

So Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi deliverd the blow huh? They use a wooden sword I believe although the first few actually did it with a real sword.

The way you said it's all about awareness skills and timing is incorrect. He will make you do it again if he thinks you're trying to hear it or feel. When you dodge it it is supposed to just happen with no particular effort from yourself. That's why you're supposed to relax and clear your mind when in seiza. At least this is what I have read. The bujin are supposed to protect you if they feel you are worthy.

Who is the top ranked guy outside of Japan nowadays? Is it Bud Malmstrom in ATL, georgia or Doron Navon in Europe?

I've got practically every legitimate book on ninjutsu ever written and I would love to train with a great instructor on the west coast, but have no clue who is around. I would honestly like to make it a permanent part of my life just like lifitng weights is. I've been collecting them since I was 9 years old lol.

How is Dr. MAsaaki doing. He's getting really old now, although I hear he is spiritually as powerful as ever.

I fear I have been misquoted.
I never stated I took that test. I described the test as an example of my point in earlier posts.
I also never spoke of "Hearing" the strike. You mentioned that "When you dodge it it is supposed to just happen with no particular effort from yourself That's why you're supposed to relax and clear your mind when in seiza" . Clearing your mind allows you to use the unseen connection that exist between all things to become aware of the attack before it happens. This is whai I have been talking about in these posts. The awareness skills are the key to doing this without using the standard senses of taste, touch, hearing etc. We all have the ability to sense the energy of the attack before it reaches us if we train ourselves to do this. There are some very specific training methods to acheive this.


Yes the test is done with a Boken. Soke Massaki as far as I know is fine. I have not seen him personally since the Tai Kai in Tuscon, Az. in 1995. I am not sure who holds the "TOP" ranking but Master Richard Van Donk is one of the top ranking masters outside of Japan.

You sound like you are truly interested in Ninjutsu so I would sugest you check out Master Van Donk's Web Site: http://www.ninjutsu.com/home.shtml he has much information and links to a variety of dojos you can check out. I have met several of the instructors on the west coast at Master Van Donk's training camps and they all are great people as well as great martial artists!

 

[Sy Ali]

I'm resurrecting an old thread, I know.. but it appears that nobody really said what I will.

Reflexes are a complex topic, and in my opinion are a combination of things..

Nature -- Being born with certain traits - this is arguable.

This could even include different physical things like body type, joints, ligaments and such.

Nuture -- Training.

Quality training for good flexibility. This is a difficult topic, because there are many ways. Let's just say that someone who focuses very heavily on strength training won't have the same speed of motion as someone who carefully balances. Think of boxers who skip rope or do fast training with a light punching bag.

Experience. Earlier on in this thread, the idea of an experienced fighter reading their opponent was mentioned. A good fighter can read many subtleties beyond the obvious telegraphing of movement. Maybe they are positioning themselves to make themselves look vulnerable to a certain kind of attack, and they are prepared for that kind of attack and so they appear faster than usual.

Think of how good some of those "old masters" are. They're not big and strong and agile like a young student with "natural talent", but they're amazingly well-timed. This shows how good training can be more important than one's physical gifts. Obviously there's room for discussion there.. maybe old masters are a rare exception. Still, I'd like to think that as I age my experience will offset the difficulties in aging.

Training to move in accustomed patterns has also been a quick and dirty way to get fast quickly. e.g. kata or repetition. I still see real ability as being something more than that though.

Relaxation / Calmness / Confidence. Or mindset, or whatever you wish to call it. With experience and good training would eventually come a certain fluid mindset. Being nervous is obviously going to lock you up, so the other side of the coin is having a kind of confidence or relaxedness.

---

So to answer the original question of "is there a way to speed up reflexes?".. yes of course.

Effortful training to eliminate fear and promote confidence. Repetition to a point but train towards a relaxedness and fluidity of action. Work on physicality to improve flexibility and appropriate muscle mass and such. Throw in some cardio.. that sort of thing.

I'd also say things like training/sparring with as many different people as possible, to help eliminate the various fears of working with the unknown.

 

[Sy Ali]

Eventually, you want to do _this_. =)

 

[casualbb]

Improving reflexes eh...

From a purely physical perspective, you have to perceive a strike and send a signal to initiate the appropriate movements to evade or block it. The absolute speed depends in a large part on how fast the nervous system can transfer action potential. But I imagine that except for a few rare cases the speed of the nervous system falls within some small range.

So how do some guys react so well? They become so good that they don't have to think about it. A skill practiced goes from conscious incompetence -> conscious competence -> unconscious competence. Basically being so skilled that things become automatic. Mostly when people throw a punch or do something, SOMETHING gives them away. The expertise to recognize it combined with an automatically recalled and flawlessly executed defense produces these feats of reflex.

 

[Judo Tom]

strategy and skill will decrease your reaction time as well

when you are very skilled you will recognize what someone will most likely do because you have seen it before and will see it coming..

strategy can allow you to set someone up for something so you know how he will react before he does..

just trying to add something

 

[Kane Fan]

ok, a kick boxer from the iranian national team was working out at my gym. we started conversation and he told me his profession and what not... he was large , but not bulky- very fit. as the conversation progressed, i asked him to show me a few moves - jsut cuz i was curious, he tells me to punch him in the face as hard as i can. i ask him if he was sure, and he says yeah, so i punched him as hard and fast as i could: complete miss. he says go again, miss, miss miss... none of my punches hit him, he kept dodging left and right. this guy was one FAST mofo, tell me how do martial artists get so damn quick? i also see on UFC, gracie- untouchable, and cro-cop, also even, boxers- unfriggin touchable. im about to start brazillian jiu jitsu in about 1 week, and i was just wondering how these martial artists, do it.

I can practically promise he was not as fast as you think
you asked him to show you some moves and you say martialartist seem fast, I assume that means you are not into any real fighting styles
someone slower then you, who watches your body for signs can tell what you are about to do, and it is like Jedi (I dunno if you watch Star Wars movies or anything but Jedi are very fast, or at least they seem to be, actually they are minorly psychic and know the attack is coming so they start to move a bit before you even throw the attack thus they appear very fast when really they are only a bit quicker then you or even slower)
someone can be slower then you and still dodge your swings if you telegraph
and if you are untrained I'm pretty sure you did
I think it was a pretty shity of that guy to do to try to embarass you like that
did he actually show you anythingor just dodge around to try to make you look bad?
maybe when you asked him to show you some moves he thought you were calling him out I don't know
but you can use dodgeing to your advantage
if you can predict where the other guy is going to dodge you can throw a jab he'll dodge and catch him with a hook
and with him ducking into it you can land a harder punch
I don't really know what kind of dodge practice you will get in BJJ tho
might be good might not I'm not sure
but I hope that helped

 

[Kane Fan]

I don’t know what your background is so no offence but your inability to hit him might well be that you are telegraphing your punches and don't even realize it. If that is the case and the person who your punching knows how to read your “tell” you will never connect. A single straight punch delivered to someone who is expecting it and knows your target with no fake leading is about a zero percent deal. Trust me I know what I’m talking about. I think any of the other fighters on this board will back me up on this. As for increasing your reflexes I would say that you can’t however, I think building muscle and cardio endurance along with training in the arts and learning to set up your opponent with a good fake will increase your connect percentage.

In short you really didn’t have much of a chance of hitting him. Hope this helps.

I agree with most of what you said especially the good fake thing increaseing hit %
but I think you can increase handspeed
or reaction
handspeed would be easier
andyou can fake handspeed by having combinations and faking like you said
but I think overall handspeed can be improved
I dont know that BJJ will help a lot with that because it's a grappling style but a standup type class, like boxing would probubly help

 

[Kane Fan]

A simple single or double leg takedown will supercede that law of physics anytime if properly executed. Now tell me, am I wrong?

The person on defense is usually the loser when 2 trained fighters go at it because if you aren't attacking you're generally evading and blocking his energy and are vulnerable to dammage. Now alot of guys say well I will use his motion to throw him, or wait for him to make a mistake or this or that, but in real life that rarely happens, and while you're on the defensive you're getting your ass pummeled to a certain extent.

It's always better to make the first move. Especially if you can misdirect their attention and get a blind shot in first. Once you move you gotta go at it with everything you got.

Technique, experience, speed are all great, but alot of times a fight will end very quickly because one guy is bigger, stronger and more agressive than the other guy.

Technique and speed can win a fight almost instantly, but so can strength and power.

Better yet, how about just not fight, and if you have to fight just poke him in the eye and run. It works.

the exception to being on the offensive being better is a counterpuncher
cus his offense waits for your offense
but it is definatly a huge advantage to be the aggressor in grappling
at least I think so
unless you are drastically outclassed and wind up in a front choke or something
cusif you are the aggressor in grappling (ie if you do the takedown) you usually wind up in top possition and that's a huge advantage

 

[Kane Fan]

Since you won't tell us that you are a worl champion I think it is safe to say you are not.

Where are you training and with whom? Not answering is not going to help your case.

Sure, post your research data. I can bring a whole load of eastern bloc research to support what I say.

So you discount boxing or the simple fact of reflex speed in the dollar bill--of course that means your idea carries more weight than others.

Support your argument.
As for you personal contention that defense is begtter: Love to hear your record as a professional fighter--since you must be one, right? Vague asnwers aren't going to prove anything.

ON this thread as in athletic training centers for world class and Olympic atheletes (have you gone to one) it seems that you are the only one that thinks that waiting for someone to pull the trigger is better than pulling the trigger (sorry if you think the analogy is not isomorphic).

Dig through the Soviet research to validate in a verifiable non ancedotla manner. Or go talk to any Dutch Kick boxing trainer or the Kronk Gym, etc.

Nice discounting of Rocky Marizzano--avoid it at all costs.

or compare the number of people that win from the bottom of a take down
it has happend but even people that won from the possition would rather have been on top (would rather have been the aggressor)
tho you can gain things from fighting defensivly
especially if you outclass the other guy
if he comes in for a punch and leans you can slip or dodge to the side and come with a straight punch and add your two momentums together for the impact
in general I agree tho it's better to be the aggressor

 

[Kane Fan]

I don't need to prove anything. I do not attend or participate in tournaments and never said I did.

If you read the original post carefully you will see that the question did not relate to tournaments or professional sports but used an example of one martial artist demonstrating his ability to defend against an attack from another person.
My whole point is that I agree with the martial artist. I can and have avoided being hit by an attacker including an attack with a knife and I did this while being on the defensive posture.
I am a martial artist and have trained with the highest ranking Sensi outside of Japan in my art. I have also trained with the Grand Master of that art.
The test for 5th degree Black belt in this art is to avoid a sword strike from behind while kneeling in Seiza and with the attack coming silently at an unknown time from the Grand Master himself.
This requires an accute command of awarness skills and the control of timing. This is the whole key to this type of response. I do not believe in ever attacking another for any reason other than self defense including the attempt to prove my skills in a match or tournament. By the way we also train in dis-arming attackers with firearms. This more that any other tequinique requires control of timing.

dude I know what your saying ha some merit but I have to say you are not trying to counter the points being made you are trying to throw up a smokescreen
when he said he was pretty sure you had never competed with world class talent, you countered with he could not know
however he was right so apparently he could know
see the problem with a martial art compared to a sport is martial arts are generally practiced (and there are exceptions let me put that out there right now) with people who are not actually trying to hurt you
a sport is practiced day in and day out by people who dedicate their lives to that pursuit!
so a sport gets rid of all the stuff that is too complicated to be useful and commits focus to the practical
this is why a kung fu master matched up with a muy thai fighter more often then not winds up laying on the ground holding his leg groaning
it is also why a boxer can more often then not lead a martial artist with a fake punch and catch him when he overdoes the dodge
naturally there are exceptions (Ill say it twice!) but in general those are the outcomes of the matchups

there are advantages to being on the defensive and you should have a strong defence if you are going to compete or opt for something other then running in terror from a fight, but being on the offensive has advantages to andyou fail to see that
or at least you seemed to fail to see that perhaps I missread you if so I am sorry

 

[Kane Fan]

Re: Sport

The first post was talking about sport fighting and athletes in various disciplines of it this is why we all continued in this vein.

It is always easy not to compete--I think reading of Bruce Lee will give adequate comment on that subject.

Best gun disarms and best techniques ever were pioneered by two men in the USA--guess what? They used an empirical method to arrive at the techniques.


Under this reflex talk there has been all of the following:

movement speeed
Choice reactoni,
perception,
visual processing
mental selection
visual tracking
afferent to effernt traiining
hard wiring of the nervous system

all of these are specific and individual points to improve the potential that is in each person with their own genetic envelope.

There are sequential methods to improve all of these parts (that is what the Eastern Bloc Sports Scientists did). Not to believe in this is to have never seen the 50 foot shark.

Empricial methods always beat randomn "felt it in my gut" training.

And before any sort of other comment is made--yes, I do get paid to enhance those learning strategies (i,e, visual processing, tracking, afferent to efferent, hardwiring, etc)

The first question to ask is what am I tryhing to improve and why?

From there a professional can design a protocol.

Hope that makes it clearer this time around for you.

ever do probono work?
I have good handspeed and would like to make it as good as I possibly can

 

[Kane Fan]

Re: The easy way out

Data needs no "Defense" Data is simply available information. I am not trying to "Produce winners". I am as I have stated several times simply making a point for those that are interested on the subject.

You seem to have a need to prove your self to the readers of this forum. You speak of all these "Facts and Data" but you offer no real "Facts and Data".
I suspect that since you charge people money for your services (Which is fine) that your initial reason for coming to this forum is not for edification but to sell your business.

And looking at your posts you are new here, with only a few posts to your credit which only strengthens the theory that you are trying desperately to discredit me in an attempt to gain some sort of validation here.

This is silly since I have no need to sell or prove anything. I simply enjoy sharing my ideas with the regular readers here and in a few other forums on the EliteFitness site.

I hope you are sucessfull in your business and continue to grow and learn about the things you are currently missing in your very narrow view of the world.

martial arts masters from all over the world huh
al these martial arts masters also do not compete right?
so they have never been really tested

 

[Kane Fan]

So Bam, you are saying you have a 5th degree in bujinkan ninjutsu?

So Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi deliverd the blow huh? They use a wooden sword I believe although the first few actually did it with a real sword.

The way you said it's all about awareness skills and timing is incorrect. He will make you do it again if he thinks you're trying to hear it or feel. When you dodge it it is supposed to just happen with no particular effort from yourself. That's why you're supposed to relax and clear your mind when in seiza. At least this is what I have read. The bujin are supposed to protect you if they feel you are worthy.

Who is the top ranked guy outside of Japan nowadays? Is it Bud Malmstrom in ATL, georgia or Doron Navon in Europe?

I've got practically every legitimate book on ninjutsu ever written and I would love to train with a great instructor on the west coast, but have no clue who is around. I would honestly like to make it a permanent part of my life just like lifitng weights is. I've been collecting them since I was 9 years old lol.

How is Dr. MAsaaki doing. He's getting really old now, although I hear he is spiritually as powerful as ever.

well a friend of mine has an uncle, who knows a guy into ninjitsu
however that guy lives in Japan so I don't think that helps you any
can I ask why the interest in Ninjitsu?
I am new to posting here so you might want to pm me inc ase I have trouble finding this thread again

 

[Kane Fan]

strategy and skill will decrease your reaction time as well

when you are very skilled you will recognize what someone will most likely do because you have seen it before and will see it coming..

strategy can allow you to set someone up for something so you know how he will react before he does..

just trying to add something

yes strategy!
that is the problem with a standard martial art
they teach technique, pattern and general concepts
but they rarely ever teach strategy!
that is my favorit way to determine if I think someone is or has potential to be a good fighter, I just talk to them a bit about fighting (sport fighting usually not a street fight) and if they come back with concepts on combinations or a specific move or two I think 'this guy will need work'
if he answers with a STRATEGY like try to be defensive for awhile and see if he attacks in a patern, or try to disrupt him, if he wants standup try to clinch, if he wants clinching get to the ground if he wants the ground game work him from outside etc, then I think this guy may not know a hook from a front kick but with traininghe could be a danger

 

[Judo Tom]

sorry but a lot comments in this thread are incorrect maybe because people were arguing or just trying to prove a point but..

defensive fighter vs offensive fighter
its up to the fighter his skills his training his attitude to determine how HE will be most effective.. its not just a this way is better thing.. that mistake has been made before it is up to the fighter. in every art/style there are people who are more effective at counters/counter punching/ slip jab to takedown.. whatever but you can just say one is better then the other its not maybe for YOU but not for everyone.

top position vs bottom position
ok im nobody special so dont ask.. im not a world champion or anything like that but i do compete a lot. and i do win a lot of fights on the ground. and i win more fights with my back on the mat and my oppononent on top of me. i need to be effective from this position because i am smaller and lighter then most people i fight and wind up on the bottom. the thing is i need to create a situation where being on the bottom is the dominant position. my instructor who won most of his fights on the ground almost always won from a top position because he was super strong and big and was able to get on top.. but he also had to ensure that the top position was the dominant position

IMO you must be very careful when creating rules in fighting. what works for one might never work for another.. generilizations are good but adaptation and specific strategies are what make good fighters great fighters..

also im suprised no one said winny? WTF?

good luck