Input on PCT

[alphatest]

Lets keep in mind you tried to use that clomid was fda approved for pct in your argument. Thats you in blue.

Just because its in a faze or what ever dos not make it ok to out right say thats what its been approved for. Seems small to you, but its not to me. It was approved for women right now. Let us not forget this. It may never be approved for anything else. Lets not jump the gun my little buddy.


Again you are incorrect. A drug cannot be sold unless it has received FDA approval. This means the drug company has to show that
A. The drug is effective at treating medical issue in question (raising test in this case)
B. The side effects inccured by the usage of the drug are minimal

I never said clomid was FDA approved for PCT, in fact I specifically said it was in phase III clinical trials. The reason I posted the above quote was simply to clarify for nelson the difficulty in getting drugs approved by the FDA for a specific cause. Bear in mind that NO drug is FDA approved for restoring the HTPA, and clomid is by far the CLOSEST one to gaining FDA acceptance out there.

 

[Manuel Hung]

WOW, this blew up pretty quick.

Thanks for the insight and advice on PCT. You guys are encylopedias. Even when you're arguing people are learning.

Thanks

 

[needtogetaas]

Do you offer an affordable masters



I would be curious to see the dosage the people complaining of severe side effects are running it at. My guess is almost all are higher then 25mg/day.

In fact I do bro. lololololol You can get the study book right here.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...book-today-get-3-free-months-plat-593034.html


As for the low dose clomid. Respectfully bro I have to say. I have been around this board and man. I have seen every cycle,every pct and every outcome. Yes the sides of any drug will get less and less the more you lower the dose. So will its effectiveness!!!

Also I assure you that even at 25mg ed (which I must say I do not see much of its pretty low) I have still seen just as man people having shitty feelings and other sides.


Keep in mind I never did say clomid will not work. My thing is that clomid alone
is not the best pct one can get. Its just not plan and simple. There is other products out there that can do the job and do it better. Or other products you can add that will make clomid even better.

If you ask me no one should be doing just 25mg of clomid alone for pct. No one should be doing any dose of clomid or nolva alone for pct. There is better.

 

[hehateme000]

I have to say a lot of sites reccomend 100mg of clomid when u should never have to go over 50, so a lot of people are getting sides from that. A lot of people read on sites and think its the best way just because they read it. Also, i think 25mg of clomid ADDED to Nelsons supps would be the safest thing you could do if you are in doubt of either two products.

Honestly, in my PCT i might include clomid. I have HCG, POST CYCLE, UNLEASHED and PP's Recovery Stack. I need to give those a try since they sound great and have gotten great reviews. But clomid for 25mg a day is what PP reccomended, and it makes sense at a low dose. Its cheap as hell too, so why not? Instead of makin a huge argument over studies that were done, just buy both. 25mg of clomid a day would be 700mg of clomid which is CHEAP to get.

25mg a day is not going to give anybody serious side effects, and if they honestly cant handle the side effects they are PUSSIES. Yes many people have had side effects taking clomid, but in nelsons words 75% of people have done it right. And theres still the chance that some of the 25% people took more than 25mg. Probably all of them did.

In conclusion: Buy Clomid. Buy PP's Recovery Stack. Buy UNLEASHED and POST CYCLE. Eat right. Train hard. Perfect

 

[needtogetaas]

I never said clomid was FDA approved for PCT, in fact I specifically said it was in phase III clinical trials. The reason I posted the above quote was simply to clarify for nelson the difficulty in getting drugs approved by the FDA for a specific cause. Bear in mind that NO drug is FDA approved for restoring the HTPA, and clomid is by far the CLOSEST one to gaining FDA acceptance out there.

MEH dhea is in the works to.

 

[Nelson Montana]

For someone that has been in the game for so long I feel you are totally ignoring the positive evidence. I have never said the original study post at the beginning of this thread was the end all be all. In 2003 Columbia University published an article summarizing their study on the use of Clomid at 25mg/day to increase test levels. Pasted below is the pertinent information.

The Columbia study evaluated the use of clomiphene citrate tablets in 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism, which was defined as a serum testosterone level < 300 ng/dl. Each patient received a daily dose of 25 mg of clomiphene citrate. The average patient age was 39 years, with 12 over age 40. The average pretreatment testosterone level was 247.6 ng/dl. All patients received the drug for at least three months; the entire group was followed for 1 year.

By the first follow-up visit, which occurred between four and six weeks of the start of therapy, the average testosterone level rose to 610 ng/dl, an increase of 146 percent compared with baseline. This response was seen in all patients regardless of age.
No patients reported any of the known side effects of clomiphene citrate, such as hot flashes, visual disturbances, or headaches. “In fact, most patients reported improvements in overall well-being, sex drive, physical strength, and mood on follow-up visit interviews. Some experienced these changes in as little as three months of therapy,” points out Dr. Fisch.


Perhaps you can clarify why the findings by doctors at Columbia university directly conflict with your claim that a dose of 25mg/day will actually make the situation worse.

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I would have to know why they were hypogonadal and how long their T levels remained elevated after the cessation of treatment. Two little factors that seem to be ignored.



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Again you are incorrect. A drug cannot be sold unless it has received FDA approval.


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No, it is you who are incorrect. Clomid was not originally approved for that purpose. So just because it's an "approved" drug does not mean it will work for something it isn't designed for. So it can be sold but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Acting imperious does not make you correct. You want to try that bullshit, go here: www.bodybuilding.com




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This means the drug company has to show that
A. The drug is effective at treating medical issue in question (raising test in this case)
B. The side effects inccured by the usage of the drug are minimal

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36 men isn't much. I did a test on the effects of avenacosides on 25 men and that was out of pocket. The AMA couldn;t splurge for more than THAT?



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The average cost to bring a drug through the FDA for approval is around a billion dollars. The trans isomer of clomid, (normal clomid is both cis and trans) is currently in phase III trials. If you read the preliminary data from the phase I and II trials you will see that the response to this method has been overwhelmingly positive. So in reality there is an incredible amount of money invested in the idea that clomid can effectively restore test levels.

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Then why isn't it used as HRT? You can ague all day that it works, and it does in some people. But in others, it's a disaster. (Kinda like leeches). There are better ways. You can ignore them if you like, but they exist.

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[Pat_McCrotch]

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[perryscoon]

Nelson instead of bashing clomid all the time why don't you market your product to be used WITH clomid. You are excluding a very large portion of your potential customer base by telling everyone not to use clomid. The people that use and like clomid will be turned off by this and won't consider your products.

If I were you I would start marketing your PCT products as something to be used in conjunction with clomid(or nolva) during PCT OR by themselves. That way you get the clomid customer base as well.

Just a thought since I like to use both(clomid & PP products).

 

[hehateme000]

Nelson instead of bashing clomid all the time why don't you market your product to be used WITH clomid. You are excluding a very large portion of your potential customer base by telling everyone not to use clomid. The people that use and like clomid will be turned off by this and won't consider your products.

If I were you I would start marketing your PCT products as something to be used in conjunction with clomid(or nolva) during PCT OR by themselves. That way you get the clomid customer base as well.

Just a thought since I like to use both(clomid & PP products).

agree----exactly what i said^^^

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nelson instead of bashing clomid all the time why don't you market your product to be used WITH clomid. You are excluding a very large portion of your potential customer base by telling everyone not to use clomid. The people that use and like clomid will be turned off by this and won't consider your products.

If I were you I would start marketing your PCT products as something to be used in conjunction with clomid(or nolva) during PCT OR by themselves. That way you get the clomid customer base as well.

Just a thought since I like to use both(clomid & PP products).

Good point and I've actually said just that. Even if Clomid works for you, POST CYCLE will help in other areas. My positon on clomid is simply one of edification. I make no money from people not taking clomid. I'm just trying to get a point accros that for many people it's bad news. I would sway newbies from trying it, but if you've used it in the past and like it, by all means stick with it until it doesn;t work. And adding the natty supps will only help.