Input on PCT

[Nelson Montana]

I think you are misreading the results. The T levels returned to normal after 45 days of pct treatment not 12 weeks. Also what is your evidence that 25% of men don't respond well to clomid, all studies on men in the 25 - 50 mg/day range have reported very few side effects. Unless you contend that the drug companies are suppressing data this is a pretty baseless claim.

Read the results. It says "at the conclusion of a 12 week program."

Who said anything about drug companies suppressing data? Clomid is a fertility drug for women.

What evidence do I have that Clomid has terrible sides in 25% of men? The fact that I've been studying this for almost 10 years now and have seen the same result over and over. So my conclusion is approx 25%. It may be a little more, a little less. Read the boards and you'll see for yourself. MANY guys react badly to it.

A word of advice though. Don't try to make arguments based on minutia, or nit picking or putting words in anyone's mouth. That shit doesn't fly in these parts.

 

[needtogetaas]

I think you are misreading the results. The T levels returned to normal after 45 days of pct treatment not 12 weeks. Also what is your evidence that 25% of men don't respond well to clomid, all studies on men in the 25 - 50 mg/day range have reported very few side effects. Unless you contend that the drug companies are suppressing data this is a pretty baseless claim.

Not really bro. Like I was telling some one the other day. You will see all kinds of test, but all you need to do is look around sites like this. Take to real people and be around a wile. You will see many many people do not like clomid any more. Many people do get sides from it.

Hell so man people get sides from it that it has been a running joke for decades that if a man is acting like a girl on this site. He must be using clomid.

 

[alphatest]

Read the results. It says "at the conclusion of a 12 week program."

Who said anything about drug companies suppressing data? Clomid is a fertility drug for women.

What evidence do I have that Clomid has terrible sides in 25% of men? The fact that I've been studying this for almost 10 years now and have seen the same result over and over. So my conclusion is approx 25%. It may be a little more, a little less. Read the boards and you'll see for yourself. MANY guys react badly to it.

A word of advice though. Don't try to make arguments based on minutia, or nit picking or putting words in anyone's mouth. That shit doesn't fly in these parts.

No the ANDROGEN treatment lasted 12 weeks!!!! The PCT was 45 days for the longest compound (tamoxifen). HCG was given for 16 days, Clomid for 30 and tamoxifen for 45. I quote verbatim from the discussion.

"The protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen cessation."

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I only see what you type on the boards. You claim that 25% of men respond badly to clomid, when all medical studies on hypogondal men claim otherwise. The trans isomer of clomid is currently in phase III clinical trails for treatment of hypogondal men. All data coming back from these studies indicates no serious side effects in test subjects.

 

[needtogetaas]

No the ANDROGEN treatment lasted 12 weeks!!!! The PCT was 45 days for the longest compound (tamoxifen). HCG was given for 16 days, Clomid for 30 and tamoxifen for 45. I quote verbatim from the discussion.

"The protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen cessation."

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I only see what you type on the boards. You claim that 25% of men respond badly to clomid, when all medical studies on hypogondal men claim otherwise. The trans isomer of clomid is currently in phase III clinical trails for treatment of hypogondal men. All data coming back from these studies indicates no serious side effects in test subjects.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/8121981-post12.html

 

[Nelson Montana]

I stand corrected on the length of time, but the results remain the same. There's no evidence of how long the elevation lasted. There are also other factors of that study that are sketchy. No variance in any of the subjects in regard to recovery?

You seem to conclude "all studies conclude otherwise." I say they do not, as evidenced by the one we're discussing right now. This is what I call FONZ mentality. As long as there's a study to be cut and pasted , to some people, they WIN the message board battle! Even if the study is flawed or is conducted poorly shows nothing in regerd to what it actually being claimed. Hey, it's a study!

These studies can claim no serious side effects but talk to those 25% of guys with whom it doesn't react well and you'll get a different story. I also know a lot of endos who won't prescribe it for these very reasons (not very effective, plus bad sides).

So it looks like we have different perspectives. Some people read Big Cat articles some people speak to doctors. You're bound to get varying opinions.

 

[Pat_McCrotch]

Now you see, I think that's a perfect example of how those finding are so utterly fucked.

First of all, it;s uncontrolled and with HIV men. But let's suspend such factors for now and deal with the treatment. If you read those finding closely you'll see the treatment "cured" nothing. The protocol simply caused and elevation while on. The average T level was back to normal 12 weeks after treatment -- about the same amount of time it would take if NOTHING were used. AND...it doesn't say HOW LONG after treatment. T levels could have continued to drop, in which case recovery would actually be delayed. And this doesn't even address the "backlash" effect.

In the meantime, there are about 25% of men who respond horribly to the drug. It causes mood swings, lethargy and a debilitated libido. Why isn't estrogen ever checked in any of these tests with Clomid? I believe the answer to its unreliability lies in that aspect of its effect.

It isn't economically feasible to do an extensive double blind study with sufficient subject being monitored on a daily basis but judging from experience, peripheral statistics and empirical evidence I can say that in most cases, the PCT I propose is faster, safer and more effective than any utilizing Clomid or Nolva.

Hey nelson I think you may have misread this. it says 19 hiv negative men.


then it says 12 week program of treatment with andrgogens. The PCT was a total of 45 days. Looking at the Mean Hormone Levels During Program table to the far right shows that after the 45 day protocol they were near what they were before th start of androgens.


These drugs may have more sides then I care to deal with but they work and this is what the OP was asking.


To the OP. Nelson has some great OTC PCT products but if you already have the other stuff on hand then this protocol show it returns to normal after 45 days of use.

So if you want to deal with the sides of clomid or dont ever feel any then use it away. If you want to avoid the sides then try of NM products. He has them listed in his sig.

 

[needtogetaas]

I stand corrected on the length of time, but the results remain the same. There's no evidence of how long the elevation lasted. There are also other factors of that study that are sketchy. No variance in any of the subjects in regard to recovery?

You seem to conclude "all studies conclude otherwise." I say they do not, as evidenced by the one we're discussing right now. This is what I call FONZ mentality. As long as there's a study to be cut and pasted , to some people, they WIN the message board battle! Even if the study is flawed or is conducted poorly shows nothing in regerd to what it actually being claimed. Hey, it's a study!

These studies can claim no serious side effects but talk to those 25% of guys with whom it doesn't react well and you'll get a different story. I also know a lot of endos who won't prescribe it for these very reasons (not very effective, plus bad sides).

So it looks like we have different perspectives. Some people read Big Cat articles some people speak to doctors. You're bound to get varying opinions.

SOme times its just best to look at what the people around you are saying. Real life user feed back is the best study one can get. Put them all together and you have yourself all the studies,charts,facts you need.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715217-post2.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715372-post4.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715638-post6.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6720116-post21.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5973832-post4.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5973880-post5.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5974892-post16.html


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6471250-post23.html
This guy latter said his pct with both clomid and nolva sucked big time and was very happy he found pp products that have been helping him^^^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904909-post2.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904918-post3.html

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904999-post5.html
Not when there are other things that work with out the sides bro. ^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5906724-post13.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5937630-post18.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939015-post19.html



http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939029-post20.html
This guy got permanent tracers nice^^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939186-post21.html
o look here is the gu I was talking about. Guess he did not like it lol^^^^

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/4796152-post4.html

Who the fuck wants to feel like this well on pct. It dos not have to be like this people. When are people going to get it^^^^^^

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/4798666-post10.html
cool my fucking ass^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/3821854-post4.html
Just don't sound right to me lol. No it dos not (always go away).^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/poll-who-gets-sides-clomid-301291.html
hmmm this thread says 33% get real bad sides and another 12% get sides so bad they can't use it. To top it all of a very very sad sad 33% over all said they got no sides. I am willing to bet a few cycles latter they would have changed there minds. ^^^^^^^^ Guess you can call that a real human study but what ever.


Now there is about 500000000000 more post and threads I can post up. Any one getting the point here? thanks.


Any way I am not saying clomid will not work for some or that its got no place in the game. I am just saying stop acting like its the greatest. Some with nolva. Stop acting like years of studies and people using means things should never change. Or people should not look at other products for pct.

There are products that work and make you feel great well taking them. Hell
even if you take them with clomid or nolva they make you feel great.

I say fuck your studies,fuck your bullshit its been working for years. I want to feel good and have a good recovery. Yes clomid makes more people then not feel like shit, and no it dos not always work.


Clomid and nolva suck for a whole lot of people. They are not the answer to every pct. Stop acting like they are.

 

[Nelson Montana]

SOme times its just best to look at what the people around you are saying. Real life user feed back is the best study one can get. Put them all together and you have yourself all the studies,charts,facts you need.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715217-post2.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715372-post4.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715638-post6.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6720116-post21.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5973832-post4.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5973880-post5.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5974892-post16.html


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6471250-post23.html
This guy latter said his pct with both clomid and nolva sucked big time and was very happy he found pp products that have been helping him^^^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904909-post2.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904918-post3.html

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904999-post5.html
Not when there are other things that work with out the sides bro. ^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5906724-post13.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5937630-post18.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939015-post19.html



http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939029-post20.html
This guy got permanent tracers nice^^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939186-post21.html
o look here is the gu I was talking about. Guess he did not like it lol^^^^

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/4796152-post4.html

Who the fuck wants to feel like this well on pct. It dos not have to be like this people. When are people going to get it^^^^^^

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/4798666-post10.html
cool my fucking ass^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/3821854-post4.html
Just don't sound right to me lol. No it dos not (always go away).^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/poll-who-gets-sides-clomid-301291.html
hmmm this thread says 33% get real bad sides and another 12% get sides so bad they can't use it. To top it all of a very very sad sad 33% over all said they got no sides. I am willing to bet a few cycles latter they would have changed there minds. ^^^^^^^^ Guess you can call that a real human study but what ever.


Now there is about 500000000000 more post and threads I can post up. Any one getting the point here? thanks.


Any way I am not saying clomid will not work for some or that its got no place in the game. I am just saying stop acting like its the greatest. Some with nolva. Stop acting like years of studies and people using means things should never change. Or people should not look at other products for pct.

There are products that work and make you feel great well taking them. Hell
even if you take them with clomid or nolva they make you feel great.

I say fuck your studies,fuck your bullshit its been working for years. I want to feel good and have a good recovery. Yes clomid makes more people then not feel like shit, and no it dos not always work.


Clomid and nolva suck for a whole lot of people. They are not the answer to every pct. Stop acting like they are.

Leave it needto to come through with the hard evidence. K to you my brother.

 

[alphatest]

SOme times its just best to look at what the people around you are saying. Real life user feed back is the best study one can get. Put them all together and you have yourself all the studies,charts,facts you need.

I mean no disrespect but there is a good reason medical studies don't rely on anecdotal evidence. Don't you think it is just a little silly to claim that user feed back on message boards trumps everything else. Especially when the studies in question on are done on real live users.

Any way I am not saying clomid will not work for some or that its got no place in the game. I am just saying stop acting like its the greatest. Some with nolva. Stop acting like years of studies and people using means things should never change. Or people should not look at other products for pct.

I never claimed it was the greatest. This board seems to hold PP's products in high regard and I am in no way insinuating that clomid is superior. Nelson completely misrepresented the study (HIV status, Duration of treatment) and I just wanted to set the record straight.


[/QUOTE]
There are products that work and make you feel great well taking them. Hell
even if you take them with clomid or nolva they make you feel great.
I say fuck your studies,fuck your bullshit its been working for years. I want to feel good and have a good recovery. Yes clomid makes more people then not feel like shit, and no it dos not always work.
Clomid and nolva suck for a whole lot of people. They are not the answer to every pct. Stop acting like they are.[/QUOTE]



Let me ask you this. Why do you think there is such a difference in the experiences of users on this message board, vs those who take clomid in a clinical setting. Remember a drug company is banking 100's of millions of dollars on the idea that clomid can both effectively raise test with minimal negative sides. I would not be so quick to discount it, when TAKEN at the proper DOSAGE.

 

[sugashane]

SOme times its just best to look at what the people around you are saying. Real life user feed back is the best study one can get. Put them all together and you have yourself all the studies,charts,facts you need.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715217-post2.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715372-post4.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715638-post6.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6720116-post21.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5973832-post4.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5973880-post5.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5974892-post16.html


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6471250-post23.html
This guy latter said his pct with both clomid and nolva sucked big time and was very happy he found pp products that have been helping him^^^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904909-post2.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904918-post3.html

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904999-post5.html
Not when there are other things that work with out the sides bro. ^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5906724-post13.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5937630-post18.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939015-post19.html



http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939029-post20.html
This guy got permanent tracers nice^^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939186-post21.html
o look here is the gu I was talking about. Guess he did not like it lol^^^^

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/4796152-post4.html

Who the fuck wants to feel like this well on pct. It dos not have to be like this people. When are people going to get it^^^^^^

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/4798666-post10.html
cool my fucking ass^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/3821854-post4.html
Just don't sound right to me lol. No it dos not (always go away).^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/poll-who-gets-sides-clomid-301291.html
hmmm this thread says 33% get real bad sides and another 12% get sides so bad they can't use it. To top it all of a very very sad sad 33% over all said they got no sides. I am willing to bet a few cycles latter they would have changed there minds. ^^^^^^^^ Guess you can call that a real human study but what ever.


Now there is about 500000000000 more post and threads I can post up. Any one getting the point here? thanks.


Any way I am not saying clomid will not work for some or that its got no place in the game. I am just saying stop acting like its the greatest. Some with nolva. Stop acting like years of studies and people using means things should never change. Or people should not look at other products for pct.

There are products that work and make you feel great well taking them. Hell
even if you take them with clomid or nolva they make you feel great.

I say fuck your studies,fuck your bullshit its been working for years. I want to feel good and have a good recovery. Yes clomid makes more people then not feel like shit, and no it dos not always work.


Clomid and nolva suck for a whole lot of people. They are not the answer to every pct. Stop acting like they are.

Damn. So do you think people should have several different oprions for their first few cycles so they know how each affects them? Or just run one so you know exactly how that one will affect you?