If you want to double your gains then double your dose.

[Diesel3d]

Guys ulter is right. The more and more i use gear, the more i noticed this.

I stopped making cycling so complicated.

Right now im on a gram of test every week and i take 15 mg of dbol 5 days on 2 days off.

I'm making better gains than lower dosed more complicated cycles just by using the basics, and it's much cheaper.

I did a low dosed cycle in the fall and it sucked. It did nothing for me. I think it 300mg of test prop / week with 20mg of OX / day. I just gained back what i did from my previous cycle , but did not make any real "new" gains.

Maybe a study will show up that supports longer cycles.... anyone notice that all the vets ulter mentioned now stay on for more than 5 months at a time? Well there's a reason, and a debate i don't want to get into now

 

[Big Brother Val]

Okay... so if 600 mgs will double the gains that 300 gives you, what about hitting 2000 mgs a week?

Is that going to skyrocket your gains without necessarily increasing your side effects?

 

[Dark_Stalker]

The study Ulter is talking about goes to 600mg/week max
So we don't know if the line still be exponential after that dosage.

I agree that you're body will not gain 50-60 pounds in 3 months no matter how high are your dosage, but 30 pounds is doable for sure, I gained 25 lean pounds all water removed for a 500/week sust and 2 weeks 35mg dbol, the maximum weight you can gain is prolly due to genetics as well, somebody would get 15 pounds on the same cycle someone else would get 30...

Bottom line is first cycle should be not too low or high so you then know how you react to AS at least the ones you took on the cycle.

 

[DTOX]

No offense to Ulter, but I think he's wrong and this issue has been discussed in detail before by Pat Arnold or Bill Roberts (or both?).

It's called the law of ever diminishing returns.

The *limiting factor* is that the human body only has a finite amount of receptors.

When you increase the dosage from say 150mg/wk to 300mg/wk, there are still so many open receptors that you probably can get fairly close to "doubling" your results. But (as others have noted) when you go from 1.5g/wk to 3g/wk you don't get anything even close to doubling your results, and in fact your results are going to get closer to the same the more you increase dosage.

A more accurate general formula for gains is exponential:

"By increasing the dosage 100%, you increase the results 50%."

For example, 800mg/wk is going to give you 150% of the results you'd get from 400mg/wk. So if you would gain 10 lbs of mass from 400mg/wk, increasing the dosage to 800mg/wk would increase your gains to 15 lbs--not 20 lbs.

 

[Ulter]

I am not going outside this study. I always have seen a huge difference between 500mg and 1000mg from just about anyone who has ever compared the two. But I don't have the evidence of that as it is presented in this study.

 

[chanmanfoo]

There has been an awful lot of discussion about whether 300mg/wk is enough test for a first cycle. Nelson and some of the "moderate mods" have been posting for quite some time that 300mg/wk is a good first cycle. Those of us who have used much more have been saying to use more because the gains are so much more and the sides are pretty much the same.
Why would you go through all the hassle of a cycle, injecting, scoring, etc. and then settle on gains that you'd get at 300mg when you could DOUBLE your growth if you used 600mg/wk.
The standard reply from the low dose group has always been "you don't double your gains by doubling your doses".
Well fellas, that not true.
If you use 600mg instead of 300mg per week of test YOU WILL DOUBLE YOUR GAINS. No if's ands or buts about it.

Here is a link to the full study that proves it. Finally.


http://www.anabolicfitness.net/library/Development of models to predict anabolic response.pdf

there are many variables that play a key role to what you will gain from a first cycle per dosing: weight, genetic predisposition, training history, diet etc.. i have always been on the conservative side especially in regards to first timers for several reasons. 1 why start with a high dose when you could acheive great results from a low one and build up to higher doses as your cycling evolves. 2 doubling the dose or starting at a high dose will result in higher side effects especially pertaining to shutting down the hpta, at doses of 500/750mg test per week i do not shut down noticeably, beyond these doses i have a significant shutdown, this of course is me and i dont claim to represent everyone, but i feel gains are easier kept within this range than shutting yourself down completely and fighting it with ancillaries that come with their own host of side effects. give a 200lb newbie with perfect diet training etc 400mg test per week and you should see a 25/30 lb increase and will likely keep 20lbs. give him 800mg and he could gain 35 maybe even 40lbs two months after last shot he is going to be no further along than the 400mg guy. almost all of us graduate to higher doses as we progress, but to give newbies the idea that more is better is an unsafe and untrue peice of advise in my opinion.
foo

 

[Ulter]

"
A more accurate general formula for gains is exponential:

"By increasing the dosage 100%, you increase the results 50%."

For example, 800mg/wk is going to give you 150% of the results you'd get from 400mg/wk. So if you would gain 10 lbs of mass from 400mg/wk, increasing the dosage to 800mg/wk would increase your gains to 15 lbs--not 20 lbs."


This was the same argument everyone was giving for using 300mg rather than 600mg. That being that 600 would not double your gains from 300mg. Well this study proves otherwise and there is no evidence that 800mg wouldn't double you gains from 400mg. But I agree there comes a point where the straight line proven in this study would start to bend.

Again my argument is that if you are going to cycle then you should get the most out of it without injury. These men in the study were given 600mg/wk without incident and there is no reason to think the results would be any different for anyone else.

 

[Dark_Stalker]

It depends on your goals. The dbol is more fun and the Oxanadrolone is better for cutting and hardening. Anadrol I am not big on just because the gains are so fleeting.

Good to know, I only used dbol for an oral AS and after 2 weeks I couldnt stand anymore the back pain so I stopped its use and just continued bi-weekly sustanon injections.

I still have about 100 tabs of the dbol.. if I take 20025mg a day instead of the 35mg I did, do you think the back pain would be less painful or was it the kidneys ? Very hard to know.. when I took aspirin the pain went away, I didnt want to take aspirin all day.

 

[Ulter]

I don't even use 35mg/day. It only takes 25mg/day for me to get the great pumps and feeling of well being from Dbol.
The back pain could be from any number of things but if the asprin made the pain go away then it's most likely the dreaded DBPS; Dbol Back Pump Syndrom.

 

[BigPapaPump]

Ulter...right on brother! Let me add my thoughts here.

First off to all the people that I'm about to offend....get over it, to those of you who understand what I'm about to say....add your comments.

The statement that Ulter has made is correct.....for most of you. Here's the real issue. Most of the people on this board are casual wanna be body builders. I can not tell you how sick I am of seeing posts about...."hey dude....can I drink beer smoke pot and then use something to cut up and get shredded for spring break?"

Someone added a reply to the effect that his first cycle was 250 mgs of whatever...added 17 pounds...then his 2nd cycle he doubled to 500 mgs.....same work outs, same diet...same everything. That's the problem. How the hell can anyone expect different results by doing the same thing ? If you are serious about gaining anything, you must get in the gym and bust your ass. Everything about your training, diet...etc must change when you start using gear. If you're the casual, walk in the gym to socialize type of person.....there is no advantage of using more gear because you have no potential anyway...you're just there to get into my way. Kinda like putting 97 octane in your Moped....what's the point ?

The majority of steroid related side effects come from those of you who are only looking for that magic solution that you think can turn you into something you're not while allowing you to sit down and watch. If you're a healthy person and live a clean lifestyle, side effects should never be a real concern. Now if you're a guy who already has breasts, you're half bald and can't get the wood up.....gear is not for you anyway.

Uping your dosages of test, will make a profound difference in your abilities and your end results. If you are experienced in the gym and are commited to this lifestyle, taking token amounts of anything is a waste of time. My usual test based cycle would be to hit 400 - 500 mgs every 60 hours for 10 weeks. I use no anti e's, have no side effects and have no problem recovering. I will train about 7.5 hrs per week, sleep atleast 7 hrs per night, eat atleast 520 grms of protein per day within my 4200 cal diet, never drink beers or snort coke . I prefer to use cardio to trim down instead of t3, x, dnp or run dmc. I approach my work outs like a job, I go in I work as hard as I can possibly work and then go home. I do not sit around and talk and try to tell everyone that I used to be big, but had to stop training because I couldn't find clothes big enough any more.

If you doubt that increasing your dosages will increase your gains, you must not pay much attention to those around you. I'd caution most of you about who you take advice from, there are so many guys here spouting out advice about subjects that they've only read about. Some of these experts were newbies 6 mos ago under a different name. The rants are the same old crap...don't do this and don't do that...don't speed or you might get a ticket.

BPP