If you want to double your gains then double your dose.

[Ulter]

There has been an awful lot of discussion about whether 300mg/wk is enough test for a first cycle. Nelson and some of the "moderate mods" have been posting for quite some time that 300mg/wk is a good first cycle. Those of us who have used much more have been saying to use more because the gains are so much more and the sides are pretty much the same.
Why would you go through all the hassle of a cycle, injecting, scoring, etc. and then settle on gains that you'd get at 300mg when you could DOUBLE your growth if you used 600mg/wk.
The standard reply from the low dose group has always been "you don't double your gains by doubling your doses".
Well fellas, that not true.
If you use 600mg instead of 300mg per week of test YOU WILL DOUBLE YOUR GAINS. No if's ands or buts about it.

Here is a link to the full study that proves it. Finally.


http://www.anabolicfitness.net/library/Development of models to predict anabolic response.pdf

 

[FREAKZILLA1]

i vote for higher doses! first real cycle was 750sust/600EQ each week 10 weeks. with dbol and oral fina. if your gonna do it, mega-dose it!

 

[Dark_Stalker]

Yep, my next one will have higher total gear in it. Thinking if 500mg/week sustanon or enantate, 400mg/week EQ with either dbol or anavar or anadrol ?

I gained 30 pounds on my first cycle 500 sustanon a week and 35mg for 2 first week with dbol.

Any suggestion Ulter ?

 

[khemix]

i vote for higher doses! first real cycle was 750sust/600EQ each week 10 weeks. with dbol and oral fina. if your gonna do it, mega-dose it!

JEZUZ! Thats one hell of a first cycle! I'm currently on my first cycle, Dbol 20-25mg/ed 1-2.5 wks, Test Cyp 400mg/wk 1-10 wks. I'm on week 8 and am 30lbs up! And I'm surprisingly not holding much water! My next cycle, for the summer, it gonna be a hell of one.

Dbol, 30mg/ed 1-4 wks
Test Enth, 500mg/ed, 1-10 wks
EQ, 400mg/ed, 1-10 wks
Fina, 50mg/ed,11-16 wks
Test Prop, 50mg/ed, 11-16 wks
Clomid, 2 days after last prop shot (heard i should do this, am i wrong?)

The first 10 weeks im bulking up good, then the last 6 im cutting like a mofo. This is only my second cycle so I should get great stuff outta this one! Any comments or suggestions? Thanks!

Chris

 

[Ulter]

It depends on your goals. The dbol is more fun and the Oxanadrolone is better for cutting and hardening. Anadrol I am not big on just because the gains are so fleeting.
500mg test and 400 eq is a good plan to build on though.

 

[FREAKZILLA1]

JEZUZ! Thats one hell of a first cycle! I'm currently on my first cycle, Dbol 20-25mg/ed 1-2.5 wks, Test Cyp 400mg/wk 1-10 wks. I'm on week 8 and am 30lbs up! And I'm surprisingly not holding much water! My next cycle, for the summer, it gonna be a hell of one.

Dbol, 30mg/ed 1-4 wks
Test Enth, 500mg/ed, 1-10 wks
EQ, 400mg/ed, 1-10 wks
Fina, 50mg/ed,11-16 wks
Test Prop, 50mg/ed, 11-16 wks
Clomid, 2 days after last prop shot (heard i should do this, am i wrong?)

The first 10 weeks im bulking up good, then the last 6 im cutting like a mofo. This is only my second cycle so I should get great stuff outta this one! Any comments or suggestions? Thanks!

Chris

i held back my cals since i was afraid of getting fat....then got sick and anxious and couldn't sleep due to the fina towards the end and really fucked up. so i didn't get much off of that cycle. got more off of the dbol/winny i did for my REAL first cycle. like 23 lbs and 17 kept. but my bad for holding back cals, and not realizing my anxiety would go nuts on fina. oh well.....doing better this cycle.

 

[khemix]

well my goals (if you were pertaining to me) are to add alot of size with the dbol and enth, using the eq to help keep me vascular and give me a bigger appetite, and then cut down and get moderatly ripped for the last 6. Right now my bf is about 7-8 and with the next cycle it will probably get to 10-11, so i will need to cut down.

Chris

 

[TheDarkSideNinja]

MY THEORY....

If you want to die quicker then keep playin with high test doses!!! The ones who are sayin take 800 mgs or a gram a week for newbies are the same ones giving us a bad fuckin name I.M.O

 

[Spectre]

I agree, if your going to go through all the trouble, money, legal, AND recovery process you might as well run the cycle like you mean it. I'm not saying go run a gram outta the gate, just don't fiddle around 250mg or 300mg (test) a week, run the 500 or 600 and get to the program.

 

[Diabolical]

That is both true and untrue.

Your body can only gain so much weight in a 10-12 week period.

If you can gain 25-30 lbs off a 300-400 mg/week test cycle.
Then there is no point in adding the extra in.

It is kinda like saying that is you run 1 gram of test a week for a first cycle you will gain 60-65 lbs. Not gonna happen.

Yes 300 is somewhat low, even for a first cycle. And increasing that low of a dose would have benefits.
But 500 is just right, once again you can only gain so much weight on a cycle.

If you do everything right, thier is no way you need more than 500 mg. of test for a first cycle.

 

[TheDarkSideNinja]

Diabolical....

I totally agree with your logic bro couldn't have said it better. No need for any1 to do more than 500mgs for 1st cycle!!!

 

[AlbinoAssassin]

I'm no juice guru, but that's saying that if someone is taking 1.5g's of test a week they can take 3 and double their gains. Then theoretically someone could easily weigh 400 muscular pounds. Hell, why just double, take 10g's of test a week. The law of diminishing returns applies to all things. Of course, with in reason increasing the dosage will increase gains. You said that doubling your dose will double your gains period, how can one study back that up. I guess it all comes down to how much you are willing to risk your health for 3 more pounds. That doesn't make sense to me. Like I said, I'm sure most people on this board know more about gear than me, but that is my honest logical opinion. If anyone would like to tear holes in my logic, and explain why I am wrong please do so. I am here to educate myself, you won't hurt my feelings.

 

[sk*]

IMO, a jump from 300mg to 600mg of test might contribute double the gains, but if you go from 1g to 2g it will not.

A lot of it matters what part of the game you are in, but yea I agree with you at least on what you said in the original post.

-sk

 

[sk*]

I'm no juice guru, but that's saying that if someone is taking 1.5g's of test a week they can take 3 and double their gains. Then theoretically someone could easily weigh 400 muscular pounds. Hell, why just double, take 10g's of test a week. The law of diminishing returns applies to all things. Of course, with in reason increasing the dosage will increase gains. You said that doubling your dose will double your gains period, how can one study back that up. I guess it all comes down to how much you are willing to risk your health for 3 more pounds. That doesn't make sense to me. Like I said, I'm sure most people on this board know more about gear than me, but that is my honest logical opinion. If anyone would like to tear holes in my logic, and explain why I am wrong please do so. I am here to educate myself, you won't hurt my feelings.

Sorry, hadn't read your post before I replied, but sums up what I was thinking nicely.

-sk

 

[DeepZenPill]

All you high dose bastards can go to hell

If my body didn't like getting stretch marks so easily, and if my tendons weren't girly-men, I would go with higher doses. For some of us safety while cycling is paramount. People who lose hair easily, or get gyno easily, get stretch marks easily, etc.

It is quite interesting that you can actually double your gains with that increase though, but low dose cycles aren't worthless.

 

[GodOfThunder]

This doubing your results idea is obsurd. A friend I know gained 25 pounds on 350 mg sust a week...do you mean to say that on 700mg a week it would have been 50 lbs? I think not. I am all for low does cycles....especially becase not eeryone is into the whole massive look thing. I tryed that out and its not my bag. I'd rather be shredded.

 

[shoichi]

Is the ratio of gear doses to gains retained the same? Or do you end up losing more post cycle?

I still have the belief that +15 on cycle, 12+ post cycle is more feasible than +30 on cycle, +24 post cycle. I don't have any scientific "proof" or explanations, it's just what I've observed with my friends.

 

[sk*]

This doubing your results idea is obsurd. A friend I know gained 25 pounds on 350 mg sust a week...do you mean to say that on 700mg a week it would have been 50 lbs? I think not. I am all for low does cycles....especially becase not eeryone is into the whole massive look thing. I tryed that out and its not my bag. I'd rather be shredded.

Well for one, noone can gain 25lbs of lbm within 12 weeks or so (I am just assuming 12weeks). Most people just gain fat/water and like to add it to the weight and claim they have put on 25lbs.

Took me a while to understand that putting on lbm is HARD, weather on or off "anabolics."

-sk

 

[Ulter]

The results of that study show what me, E2, conan, The Ranger, and others have been saying for years. Doses to gains in on a straight line up. How far up the line goes we may never know.
The reason I made this post is that there are several people who were disputing this (Quadsweep, Nelson, RealGains,etc) and telling guys that there is not that much difference in using 300mg from 600mg for your first cycle.
This study which will be in next months endo-mag takes all the air out of their argument.

 

[gtrcivic]

Only have done 2 cycles in my life that were both Sustanon. 1st one did it for 6 wks at 250mg and gained 17lbs. 4 yrs later did 375 mg for 6 wks and gained the same, 17 lbs. Diet, workout, motivation was all the same. Only variable that may played a role was age. 26 yrs then 30 yrs the last cycle.

On 3rd cycle now of TT Eq at 300 mg/wk. After week 2, up 2 lbs right now, but getting vascular and leaner.

 

[Diesel3d]

Guys ulter is right. The more and more i use gear, the more i noticed this.

I stopped making cycling so complicated.

Right now im on a gram of test every week and i take 15 mg of dbol 5 days on 2 days off.

I'm making better gains than lower dosed more complicated cycles just by using the basics, and it's much cheaper.

I did a low dosed cycle in the fall and it sucked. It did nothing for me. I think it 300mg of test prop / week with 20mg of OX / day. I just gained back what i did from my previous cycle , but did not make any real "new" gains.

Maybe a study will show up that supports longer cycles.... anyone notice that all the vets ulter mentioned now stay on for more than 5 months at a time? Well there's a reason, and a debate i don't want to get into now

 

[Big Brother Val]

Okay... so if 600 mgs will double the gains that 300 gives you, what about hitting 2000 mgs a week?

Is that going to skyrocket your gains without necessarily increasing your side effects?

 

[Dark_Stalker]

The study Ulter is talking about goes to 600mg/week max
So we don't know if the line still be exponential after that dosage.

I agree that you're body will not gain 50-60 pounds in 3 months no matter how high are your dosage, but 30 pounds is doable for sure, I gained 25 lean pounds all water removed for a 500/week sust and 2 weeks 35mg dbol, the maximum weight you can gain is prolly due to genetics as well, somebody would get 15 pounds on the same cycle someone else would get 30...

Bottom line is first cycle should be not too low or high so you then know how you react to AS at least the ones you took on the cycle.

 

[DTOX]

No offense to Ulter, but I think he's wrong and this issue has been discussed in detail before by Pat Arnold or Bill Roberts (or both?).

It's called the law of ever diminishing returns.

The *limiting factor* is that the human body only has a finite amount of receptors.

When you increase the dosage from say 150mg/wk to 300mg/wk, there are still so many open receptors that you probably can get fairly close to "doubling" your results. But (as others have noted) when you go from 1.5g/wk to 3g/wk you don't get anything even close to doubling your results, and in fact your results are going to get closer to the same the more you increase dosage.

A more accurate general formula for gains is exponential:

"By increasing the dosage 100%, you increase the results 50%."

For example, 800mg/wk is going to give you 150% of the results you'd get from 400mg/wk. So if you would gain 10 lbs of mass from 400mg/wk, increasing the dosage to 800mg/wk would increase your gains to 15 lbs--not 20 lbs.

 

[Ulter]

I am not going outside this study. I always have seen a huge difference between 500mg and 1000mg from just about anyone who has ever compared the two. But I don't have the evidence of that as it is presented in this study.

 

[chanmanfoo]

There has been an awful lot of discussion about whether 300mg/wk is enough test for a first cycle. Nelson and some of the "moderate mods" have been posting for quite some time that 300mg/wk is a good first cycle. Those of us who have used much more have been saying to use more because the gains are so much more and the sides are pretty much the same.
Why would you go through all the hassle of a cycle, injecting, scoring, etc. and then settle on gains that you'd get at 300mg when you could DOUBLE your growth if you used 600mg/wk.
The standard reply from the low dose group has always been "you don't double your gains by doubling your doses".
Well fellas, that not true.
If you use 600mg instead of 300mg per week of test YOU WILL DOUBLE YOUR GAINS. No if's ands or buts about it.

Here is a link to the full study that proves it. Finally.


http://www.anabolicfitness.net/library/Development of models to predict anabolic response.pdf

there are many variables that play a key role to what you will gain from a first cycle per dosing: weight, genetic predisposition, training history, diet etc.. i have always been on the conservative side especially in regards to first timers for several reasons. 1 why start with a high dose when you could acheive great results from a low one and build up to higher doses as your cycling evolves. 2 doubling the dose or starting at a high dose will result in higher side effects especially pertaining to shutting down the hpta, at doses of 500/750mg test per week i do not shut down noticeably, beyond these doses i have a significant shutdown, this of course is me and i dont claim to represent everyone, but i feel gains are easier kept within this range than shutting yourself down completely and fighting it with ancillaries that come with their own host of side effects. give a 200lb newbie with perfect diet training etc 400mg test per week and you should see a 25/30 lb increase and will likely keep 20lbs. give him 800mg and he could gain 35 maybe even 40lbs two months after last shot he is going to be no further along than the 400mg guy. almost all of us graduate to higher doses as we progress, but to give newbies the idea that more is better is an unsafe and untrue peice of advise in my opinion.
foo

 

[Ulter]

"
A more accurate general formula for gains is exponential:

"By increasing the dosage 100%, you increase the results 50%."

For example, 800mg/wk is going to give you 150% of the results you'd get from 400mg/wk. So if you would gain 10 lbs of mass from 400mg/wk, increasing the dosage to 800mg/wk would increase your gains to 15 lbs--not 20 lbs."


This was the same argument everyone was giving for using 300mg rather than 600mg. That being that 600 would not double your gains from 300mg. Well this study proves otherwise and there is no evidence that 800mg wouldn't double you gains from 400mg. But I agree there comes a point where the straight line proven in this study would start to bend.

Again my argument is that if you are going to cycle then you should get the most out of it without injury. These men in the study were given 600mg/wk without incident and there is no reason to think the results would be any different for anyone else.

 

[Dark_Stalker]

It depends on your goals. The dbol is more fun and the Oxanadrolone is better for cutting and hardening. Anadrol I am not big on just because the gains are so fleeting.

Good to know, I only used dbol for an oral AS and after 2 weeks I couldnt stand anymore the back pain so I stopped its use and just continued bi-weekly sustanon injections.

I still have about 100 tabs of the dbol.. if I take 20025mg a day instead of the 35mg I did, do you think the back pain would be less painful or was it the kidneys ? Very hard to know.. when I took aspirin the pain went away, I didnt want to take aspirin all day.

 

[Ulter]

I don't even use 35mg/day. It only takes 25mg/day for me to get the great pumps and feeling of well being from Dbol.
The back pain could be from any number of things but if the asprin made the pain go away then it's most likely the dreaded DBPS; Dbol Back Pump Syndrom.

 

[BigPapaPump]

Ulter...right on brother! Let me add my thoughts here.

First off to all the people that I'm about to offend....get over it, to those of you who understand what I'm about to say....add your comments.

The statement that Ulter has made is correct.....for most of you. Here's the real issue. Most of the people on this board are casual wanna be body builders. I can not tell you how sick I am of seeing posts about...."hey dude....can I drink beer smoke pot and then use something to cut up and get shredded for spring break?"

Someone added a reply to the effect that his first cycle was 250 mgs of whatever...added 17 pounds...then his 2nd cycle he doubled to 500 mgs.....same work outs, same diet...same everything. That's the problem. How the hell can anyone expect different results by doing the same thing ? If you are serious about gaining anything, you must get in the gym and bust your ass. Everything about your training, diet...etc must change when you start using gear. If you're the casual, walk in the gym to socialize type of person.....there is no advantage of using more gear because you have no potential anyway...you're just there to get into my way. Kinda like putting 97 octane in your Moped....what's the point ?

The majority of steroid related side effects come from those of you who are only looking for that magic solution that you think can turn you into something you're not while allowing you to sit down and watch. If you're a healthy person and live a clean lifestyle, side effects should never be a real concern. Now if you're a guy who already has breasts, you're half bald and can't get the wood up.....gear is not for you anyway.

Uping your dosages of test, will make a profound difference in your abilities and your end results. If you are experienced in the gym and are commited to this lifestyle, taking token amounts of anything is a waste of time. My usual test based cycle would be to hit 400 - 500 mgs every 60 hours for 10 weeks. I use no anti e's, have no side effects and have no problem recovering. I will train about 7.5 hrs per week, sleep atleast 7 hrs per night, eat atleast 520 grms of protein per day within my 4200 cal diet, never drink beers or snort coke . I prefer to use cardio to trim down instead of t3, x, dnp or run dmc. I approach my work outs like a job, I go in I work as hard as I can possibly work and then go home. I do not sit around and talk and try to tell everyone that I used to be big, but had to stop training because I couldn't find clothes big enough any more.

If you doubt that increasing your dosages will increase your gains, you must not pay much attention to those around you. I'd caution most of you about who you take advice from, there are so many guys here spouting out advice about subjects that they've only read about. Some of these experts were newbies 6 mos ago under a different name. The rants are the same old crap...don't do this and don't do that...don't speed or you might get a ticket.

BPP

 

[Big Brother Val]

if I take 20025mg a day instead of the 35mg I did, do you think the back pain would be less painful or was it the kidneys ?

I'm not a guru or anything... but at 20025 mgs a day, you may have a little kidney pain. Just take some cranberry extract... and drink a lot of water.



BigPapaPump: Very nice post. I'm currently taking 400 mgs of test every 48 hours... and really liking it. However, I will stay on longer than 10 weeks... as I progress better with long cycles.

A friend of mine starting taking test, and loaded almost 1000 mgs a week. On weeks he "couldn't make it to the gym", he wouldn't take the test, then on weeks he did, he'd take it. His diet was terrible... and he had a habit of eating a bag of nacho cheese doritos and a 1 litre of Mountain Dew for lunch. He gained NOTHING... and then told me his test was fake.

I agree with Ulter on this, but didn't need any tests to be done to be convinced, it's what I've found to be true since I started the steroid game 3 years ago.

 

[sk*]

I don't think there is any question here that more gear will give more results, thats obvious. IMO, at the same time, just doubling your dose won't keep giving you double your gains ... no not cause i've tried it but because I use logic. If doubling could keep making me gain double the lbm I'd win the olympia within 2-3years.

Also, I couldn't look at the study, gave an error page when I tried to open the pdf file.

-sk

 

[Dark_Stalker]

I'm not a guru or anything... but at 20025 mgs a day, you may have a little kidney pain. Just take some cranberry extract... and drink a lot of water.

Sorry bro, I meant 20-25mg hehe, I guess you noticed it anyway

Cranberry extract might help, I'll add it to my next cycle, thanks for the info !

 

[Fonz]

I'm making this a sticky because I'm dying to hear what the low-dose people have to say........

Fonz

 

[slobberknocker]

Also, I couldn't look at the study, gave an error page when I tried to open the pdf file.

-sk

same here

 

[Ulter]

The board may have truncated the link. Here is another one.
It's the last study on the left bottom.

http://www.anabolicfitness.net/library/bjaarki_library.htm

 

[DTOX]

I read the study (the 2nd link works), and I have to concede that Ulster's original statement appears to be correct: 600mg/wk of Test Enth. is going to give you double the gains you'd get on 300mg/wk of Test Enth.

I don't think that necessarily discredits what others have said though, that as you get closer to the upper limit of one's receptors that the gains are going to level off; 2g/wk of Test isn't going to give you double the gains of 1g/wk of Test.

It certainly changes the picture for discussing cycles that are 600mg/wk or below though.

Now I wish they would have included 900mg/wk and 1,200mg/wk in the study!

 

[Ulter]

"Now I wish they would have included 900mg/wk and 1,200mg/wk in the study!"

I can just see the line for the study volunteers winding down the highway from state to state.


I sat here looking at the sticky threads by Nelson, Quadsweep, Realgains and the rest of the "sane moderators" telling guys to use 300mg for their first cycle for two months running. E2 tried, I tried, conan tried, several other vets tried to get people to understand that this was a mistake to use 300mg instead of 600mg. The truth is now evident that all those that followed this "sane" advice were in fact cheated out of what were probably well deserved gains and for no good reason.

Like Fonz I am still waiting to see what possible argument they have left.

 

[sk*]

"Now I wish they would have included 900mg/wk and 1,200mg/wk in the study!"

I can just see the line for the study volunteers winding down the highway from state to state.


I sat here looking at the sticky threads by Nelson, Quadsweep, Realgains and the rest of the "sane moderators" telling guys to use 300mg for their first cycle for two months running. E2 tried, I tried, conan tried, several other vets tried to get people to understand that this was a mistake to use 300mg instead of 600mg. The truth is now evident that all those that followed this "sane" advice were in fact cheated out of what were probably well deserved gains and for no good reason.

Like Fonz I am still waiting to see what possible argument they have left.

Yea 300mg of anything is a complete waste. My first cycle was 200mg deca throughout and 400 for a couple weeks, big waste.

Probably hurt myself more than helped.

-sk

 

[FBodyGuy]

Interesting post...

Double your Dose... Double your bitch tits & hair loss!

On another note. I think that 500mg a week is an optimal dosage for gains. It's probably not worth toying around with 250-300mg of gear... do it right the first time around.

1g of a gear a week?! wow... not for me.

 

[Silent Method]

Hehe. I haven't been on the anabolic board in a bit and this is what I come back to? I like this thread.

First thing, let me say flat out - I like "big" doses. That is, playing around with small doses is short-changing yourself in terms of the ratio of side effects and gains.


However, I think it is short-sided to proclaim that doubiling any dose will double the gains.

The study cited only examines supraphysiological doses up to 600mg/week. I have seen at least two studies which found that the accelerated anabolic effects of exogenous testosterone on healthy, athletically trained males basically doesn't even come on-line untill around 500mg/week as opposed to a lower dosage.

In a system as dynamic and complex as the human body, concluding that a given dosage of a compound will impart a response in a fixed linear ratio to all possible dosages, simply because the equation works at some level, is absurd.

Perhaps this theory holds up in the case of 300 mg to 600 mg. This does not mean that the dosage/response ratio will remain linear with higher dosages.

 

[Ulter]

"This does not mean that the dosage/response ratio will remain linear with higher dosages."

On the other hand it doesn't mean it won't.

I will admit the thread title was only to draw attention, and it did, and that's why I stated that I am not arguing outside of what was used in the study. Even though I believe that line would continue being pretty straight at 400-800 or 500-1000 I won't take that position in this thread.

 

[Silent Method]

"This does not mean that the dosage/response ratio will remain linear with higher dosages."

On the other hand it doesn't mean it won't.

Very true - but at some point it simply couldn't.

In general I agree with the thrust of your thread. All things being the same, less gear = less muscle, more gear = more muscle. However, at some point we will smack right into a wall called the law of diminishing returns.

 

[wyld1g]

I think the law of dimished returns applies. I'd rather stay as relatively safe as I can with 300mg a wk and gain a respectable 10 pounds of actual muscle, than say gainning 12 lbs at 600mg a wk. That to me is true logic!!

 

[wyld1g]

Let me say this too, it would also depend on genetics a great deal!!! Some are hard gainers so maybe this is were someone needs to do 600mg a wk in order for them to gain! Diet boys, you can't eat crackers and get big!

 

[Fonz]

I'll tell you what this low-dose person says....Yes, I can accept that 600mg works twice as well as 300mg. I don't buy for a millisecond that 1.5grams/week works twice as well as 750mg/week. The laws of diminishing returns has to show it's face at some point.

I agree with that.

I think the cutoff is 750mg Week-1500mg/week as well.

I just found it really funny that all the low-dose people kept suggesting 300mg Test/week, when 600mg/week would double your gains yet give you the same side effects. Yet, they mentiones SEVERAL times that you would not get double the gains...just more side effects.

Personally, I run test at the 300mg/week level as it makes me irritable at high doses. My main AAS is Fina.

Fonz

 

[sk*]

I think the law of dimished returns applies. I'd rather stay as relatively safe as I can with 300mg a wk and gain a respectable 10 pounds of actual muscle, than say gainning 12 lbs at 600mg a wk. That to me is true logic!!

What part don't you get that in the study the gains were doubled from 300mg to 600mg.

At least don't be ignorant.

-sk

 

[wyld1g]

considering that I am a health care pro..gee let me guess...you believe everything you read?

 

[Fonz]

considering that I am a health care pro..gee let me guess...you believe everything you read?

That was a truly stupid response.

Fonz

 

[wyld1g]

That was a truly stupid response.

Fonz

And why would that be stupid? Do people believe everything people tell you?

 

[Fonz]

And why would that be stupid? Do people believe everything people tell you?

Its stupid, b/c its what everybody says when they lack a credible argument.

You're stating your opinion. Nothing more.

Fonz

 

[wyld1g]

so is everone else jack....It's based on my own experience and studies..quite frankly...I only believe what I've seen...oh ya..everyday!

 

[Fonz]

so is everone else jack....It's based on my own experience and studies..quite frankly...I only believe what I've seen...oh ya..everyday!

And studies?

Sorry..but no go. There are next to zero studies done on males using 600mg test/week. This being the exception. And it disproves the low dose theory.

Fonz

 

[wyld1g]

And studies?

Sorry..but no go. There are next to zero studies done on males using 600mg test/week. This being the exception. And it disproves the low dose theory.

Fonz

like you said...simply an opinion!

 

[Ulter]

You're saying that this study is only an opinion? Did you read the incredible lengths they went to in order to get this right? An opinion? ooook

 

[wyld1g]

Hold on..I'll get back to you....I faxed the doc's to a bio research buddy of mine..we'll see!

 

[daemon]

JEZUZ! Thats one hell of a first cycle! I'm currently on my first cycle, Dbol 20-25mg/ed 1-2.5 wks, Test Cyp 400mg/wk 1-10 wks. I'm on week 8 and am 30lbs up! And I'm surprisingly not holding much water! My next cycle, for the summer, it gonna be a hell of one.

Dbol, 30mg/ed 1-4 wks
Test Enth, 500mg/ed, 1-10 wks
EQ, 400mg/ed, 1-10 wks
Fina, 50mg/ed,11-16 wks
Test Prop, 50mg/ed, 11-16 wks
Clomid, 2 days after last prop shot (heard i should do this, am i wrong?)

The first 10 weeks im bulking up good, then the last 6 im cutting like a mofo. This is only my second cycle so I should get great stuff outta this one! Any comments or suggestions? Thanks!

Chris

I'm hoping you typed this wrong because I REALLY don't think using 3500mg's of test, and 2400mg's of EQ a week plus other drugs is a good second cycle.

 

[sk*]

 

[wyld1g]

Ok, in reading the artical it said the dosage differences explained 64% in variance, not 64% increases. What that means is that the higher the dose, the more likely you will gain more than a lower one. But not 100% more if you double your doses! If you look at the graphs you will see that there's not much difference between 300mg/wk and 600mg/wk! What is really interesting, there is not much difference between 125mg/wk and 300mg/wk! Like I said earlier...

 

[AlbinoAssassin]

I think that everyone on this board knows that increasing the amount of gear you use will increase your gains, I just don't like blanket statements like that. No on can say definitively that doubling your dose will double your gains period. There are conditions that are variables in all people, genetics, body chemistry etc. It's about finding a middle ground that works for you, for your goals. Twice the juice will not make you twice the bodybuilder, which is something that I think has been grossly overlooked on this thread. Deuces!

 

[Mavy]

K, lets get something straight here. Its absurd to say that doubling your dosage wont expose you to more sides. If it can double your gains, you can garantee that you will at least be more vunerable to sides (again this depends on the individual).

As far as newbie cycles go, I think that you are missing the point. When you are virgin to AAS, your body reponds to very low amounts. A pro bodybuilder giving a newbie advice on what works for them is rediculous. I beleieve that newbies starting out should go as low as they can if they are planning on running more cycles, because we all know that each cycle you do tends to get bigger. I think that a newbie will recieve great gains from a cycle that looks like this. A lower dose of test and some orals working in conjunction with it.

Wk 1-8:
Sust - 250mg/wk
EQ - 400mg/wk

Wk 1-4:
Dbol - 25mgs/day

Wk 4-8:
Anavar - 30 mgs/day

 

[wyld1g]

I'm sure it was posted without reading the article. If you look at 300 compaired to 600, doubling the dosage will only yield a small amount of gain. Not worth doing double because the differences are too small, and definitely not worth the risks.

 

[Fonz]

K, lets get something straight here. Its absurd to say that doubling your dosage wont expose you to more sides. If it can double your gains, you can garantee that you will at least be more vunerable to sides (again this depends on the individual).

As far as newbie cycles go, I think that you are missing the point. When you are virgin to AAS, your body reponds to very low amounts. A pro bodybuilder giving a newbie advice on what works for them is rediculous. I beleieve that newbies starting out should go as low as they can if they are planning on running more cycles, because we all know that each cycle you do tends to get bigger. I think that a newbie will recieve great gains from a cycle that looks like this. A lower dose of test and some orals working in conjunction with it.

Wk 1-8:
Sust - 250mg/wk
EQ - 400mg/wk

Wk 1-4:
Dbol - 25mgs/day

Wk 4-8:
Anavar - 30 mgs/day

No offense, but you will get NOTHING from that dose of anavar...specially for that length of time(Week 4-8).

Fonz

 

[wyld1g]

K, lets get something straight here. Its absurd to say that doubling your dosage wont expose you to more sides. If it can double your gains, you can garantee that you will at least be more vunerable to sides (again this depends on the individual).

As far as newbie cycles go, I think that you are missing the point. When you are virgin to AAS, your body reponds to very low amounts. A pro bodybuilder giving a newbie advice on what works for them is rediculous. I beleieve that newbies starting out should go as low as they can if they are planning on running more cycles, because we all know that each cycle you do tends to get bigger. I think that a newbie will recieve great gains from a cycle that looks like this. A lower dose of test and some orals working in conjunction with it.

Wk 1-8:
Sust - 250mg/wk
EQ - 400mg/wk



Wk 1-4:
Dbol - 25mgs/day

Wk 4-8:
Anavar - 30 mgs/day

Actually, I'm wondering if a newbie should stat out with one AS, but in a relatively high dose. Simply because the will be no built up resistance to it yet.
Clearly though, the article itself show dimished returns at work!

 

[BigPapaPump]

I think some of you guys are just anti-test. You're suggesting to use lower amounts of test BUT that it's ok to add in EQ, dbol, var etc.......where's the logic there ? The whole study that Ulter is referrirng to is about test only.

I have long expressed my concerns about newbies using multiple compounds. I think most of you are lumping the majority of your side effects onto the test part of the cycle, which is absurd. You can not honestly think that the sides would be less using 30 to 40 mgs of dbol a day vrs 600 mg of test per week.

If you're going to continue to use the 'side effects' angle against test, why not also look at the potential problems of multiple injections when running EQ or Fina? Fina is a safer alternative? All you need to do is be able to create the solution yourself, strain it, bake it and hope for the best, then inject every day! No thank you!

Refering to what a pro does makes no sense in this forum. I can assure you that the effort that a bigger guy puts forth is proportional to their cycles. There is a huge difference in your cycles and gear that you choose once you've already achieved any amount of size. You'll never hear of any pro saying that he wants to gain 50 lbs and cut at the same time. It is much easier to maintain your size than it is to gain it. I'll run my ususal dosages to reach my goal, then I'll back off some what to maintain, some of you would consider this a bridge, others just common sense.

Well, that's enough from me on this topic, sounds to me like we're almost back to the deca vrs test mentallity anyway. There will always be those out there that will bash test at any given opportunity...that's ok. It can stay a secret !

BPP

 

[wyld1g]

I can't argue with DA-MAN!!!

 

[Ulter]

"I'm sure it was posted without reading the article. If you look at 300 compaired to 600, doubling the dosage will only yield a small amount of gain. "

What are you looking at? The charts showing the gain in mass was doubled from 300mg to 600mg in all three catagories. That's why they concluded that a straight line was the most accurate model.
The total fat free mass gains at 300mg was 4kg the gains at 600mg was 8kg.

 

[wyld1g]

Maybe you need to learn to read...there was no double in mass!!! The lower half of 300 was 4kg and the uper half of 300 was all theway up to 7kg! The middle of 600 was 8kg! most of the 600 users were at or below 8kg. That is not enough to make the blanket statement of double dose, double gains! It is that simple!

 

[AlbinoAssassin]

Wyld1g, you pretty much hit the nail on the head bro!

 

[DTOX]

Oh god, I can't believe that people are going to start arguing about "outliers" in the data... Oh well, there are just some people that hold on to their ideas so strongly that they don't let the facts or truth get in the way!

Regarding multiple compounds, why *wouldn't* you want to use them if available? There are some very well known synergies between different steroids: dianabol & deca, winstrol & deca, winstrol & everything, etc. If you can get a bigger "bang" with less mg/wk by using multiple compounds, then why wouldn't you want to do that?!?

 

[Ulter]

I'm not sure why you are insulting my reading skills. That chart has a mean line that goes right through 4kg at 300mg and 8kg at 600mg. Simple as that.
Maybe you should do what the other vets here do. Try it for yourself and see if you don't gain twice or nearly twice as much with 600 as you do with 300.

 

[str8cubano]

my first test cycle , which im comming off of, consisted of 20mg/dbol for 4 weeks, 600mg test Enth. weeks 1-10. I didn't even think about a lower dose..it would have done 500mg, but i was a mission to fix it up in the syringe, so 600 it was...and great dose..

 

[wyld1g]

I am considering it. I don't want to increase my risk vs. my rewards. I am doing 300 prop at the moment. Seems to be coming along well! I didn't mean to insult you though...you called me ignorant earlier!

 

[MR. BMJ]

HELL FUCKING YEAH!!!

This is a great thread Ulter!!! If you are serious about gaining size, bigger doses will always yield larger muscles. Anybody that has tried them know this. No ifs, ands, or butts about it! The only culprit I see with larger doses is that some are prone to gyno....BUT, this does not mean that the larger doses did not give more gains. If you are sensitive to gyno, then there are routes (anti-e's and inhibitors, etc...).

That being said, some may be able to get away with lower doses for "cosmetic" improvements, but if you are serious about gaining size for competing, then larger doses are a must unless you have phenomenal genetics.

About the amount of receptors....

From what I have read, and cockdezl has mentioned this in the past when he was here (not sure if he posted a study), but to saturate the AR receptors, the dosage seems to be fairly high....if I remember correctly, it is thought to be at around 2 grams per week (correct me if I am wrong though). That also being said, I don't advocate over 1 gram per week of test unless you want to really get serious about competing.

However, it is ridiculous to believe that 300 mg's Vs. 600mg's is even of question. At that dosage, sides are minimal between both, while the gains are dramatically more for the higher dosage.

BMJ

 

[wyld1g]

by the way...the mean line is for reference only guys...it shows were the study groups were in comparison with each other if you were to actually get a 100% increase in mass by double dose. I am here to learn as well...so if I was rude to people I apologize...K

 

[nlischi]

what about not cycling? that is, taking a low but steady dose without interruption? for example 200mg sustanon (or depotestosterone or delastryil) plus 200mg deca plus 140mg oxandrolone per week? I would be very curious of opinions about this, taking low doses all year round without cycles....

 

[Ulter]

That's what a lot of guys do nlischi
It's a good way to get big over a longer period while staying healthy. It's just expensive.

 

[Triple J]

There is no doubt dosages in the 300mg /wk range work well for the majority of newbies so why tell them to risk more sides until they know and understand how their bodies react? Its just not a good policy IMHO

 

[Ulter]

wyld1g and TJ, You have to see the underlying point here. They were responsible for whatever happened to these guys. And as such carry liability insurance for human trials to protect the clinic. The researchers had no reservations about giving out 600mg/wk of TE to these guys for 20 weeks. Add to that, they only had one guy leave with acne. Most guys here are only going to be doing 10 week cycles. 600mg is what YOU and anyone else cycling for the first time should be using.

 

[wyld1g]

Well my first experience with test was about 12 years ago. I used steris cyp @ 250 per wk for about 6 months. I didn't know anything about it. I went from 185 lbs to 215 @ 4-6%. Know that I think back, I recovered quick after I stopped w/o anti-e's of any kind. So maybe long term will work for some. I don't want to try 600 of prop because I would have to inject so much I'd be a walking oil can. You should never shoot more than 3 cc's in an IM site at one time! I will wait until my next cycle for a higher dosed product and see what the results will be.

I think if your an AS vet, you would proply require large doses for any gains, but if your a newbie and you choose 600 per wk with only one AS, you will probly gain like a mofo. But honestly, I didn't see double in thier study. thanx nuf said...

 

[sk*]

you called me ignorant earlier!

Actually ulter was quite nice about it, I called you ignorant.

-sk

 

[wyld1g]

OH my bad...sorry ulter...it was this other pos! just kidding...

 

[DTOX]

One thing that should be clarified is that 600mg/wk of Test Enth is a safe dosage--period.

There have been multiple studies that have used this dosage and have had zero instances of side effects. I would even go so far as to guess that this may be why this particular study chose 600mg/wk as their top dosage: they knew it was safe, but didn't know if higher dosages would be.

Now, that's what the studies say...if anyone knows firsthand of anyone that's taken 600mg/wk for a first cycle and grown nice B-cup breasts, I'd love to read it.

 

[Fonz]

One thing that should be clarified is that 600mg/wk of Test Enth is a safe dosage--period.

There have been multiple studies that have used this dosage and have had zero instances of side effects. I would even go so far as to guess that this may be why this particular study chose 600mg/wk as their top dosage: they knew it was safe, but didn't know if higher dosages would be.

Now, that's what the studies say...if anyone knows firsthand of anyone that's taken 600mg/wk for a first cycle and grown nice B-cup breasts, I'd love to read it.

Well said.

I'd be curious to hear about problems at 600mg Test/week as well.

Fonz

 

[Lift Chief]

Well said.

I'd be curious to hear about problems at 600mg Test/week as well.

Fonz

Not a real problem per se- but i need anti-es at anything over 400mg of test EW.

I have seen a bunch of studies on steroids and 600mg EW seems to be the dosage used most often.

 

[Fonz]

Not a real problem per se- but i need anti-es at anything over 400mg of test EW.

I have seen a bunch of studies on steroids and 600mg EW seems to be the dosage used most often.

I use anti-e's even at 300mg/week.

The anti-e myth about compromising gains is such an urban legend.

Fonz

 

[Spectre]

Could the momentum behind the low dose crowd be people who low dosed far below their genetic limit? Personaly, I just can't see putting on 10-20lbs (of lbm minus the water gains) in 10-12 weeks at 300mg of test a week.

 

[wyld1g]

I'd be willing to bet, that just about 99% of people using As started below there natural limit.

 

[Lift Chief]

So the study showed gains roughly doubled from 300-600mg of test EW, but side effects remained essentially the same?

I couldn't find the study even after clicking on the same link posted- so i'd appreciate it if someone could clarify.

 

[Spectre]

I can. My first cycle was 100 tabs of Dbol, I went from 173 to 181 and stayed there.

I can buy that. Dbol is amazing.

 

[Spectre]

I'd be willing to bet, that just about 99% of people using As started below there natural limit.

Not sure if this is a response/addition to my post, but assuming that it is. I stated WELL below your genetic limit, if you take Joe lifter that has 4 mo of lifting under his belt and give him 300mg test and he eats and trains right for 12 weeks, he can put on another 10lb (or more) than he could have naturally in that time. For a total of 20 lbs. If you through out the freaks (top 5%), I just can't see a well trained and seasoned lifter putting on 15 or 20lbs in 10 weeks on 300mg test.

That being said I believe their is mental aspect to being on the first time. During my first cycle I was far more mentaly in tune than before, I thought to myself "this is for real, make it count!".
So not only do you turn the corner with AS, you step it up a notch too.

 

[wyld1g]

I did the same thing. I only did one cycle though, ten or so years ago. I waited til now to do another one. I'm at 240 now, so I think I'm going to benefit good!

 

[2Thick]

If you use 600mg instead of 300mg per week of test YOU WILL DOUBLE YOUR GAINS. No if's ands or buts about it.

Here is a link to the full study that proves it. Finally.


http://www.anabolicfitness.net/library/Development of models to predict anabolic response.pdf

Yes, but I do not recommend test at all, so there!

 

[Ulter]

It's great having you weigh in here bro.

 

[panerai]

Of course, double dosage doesn't produce double gains.
Take Ronnie Coleman, for example, if he doubles his dosage now, will he gain twice?
On another hand, dosages like 300mg/week of Test are just plain stupid, it's for people who need placebo effect to get somewhere, to be organized. Hirering good personal trainer will get them to the same point, without risk of legal trouble.
In my personal opinion, if you are going to use AAS, evaluate where you are standing, and pick the right dose for you, take into consideration not only theoretical aspects, but real life, what is the best you can do with diet, sleep, your stress level, ability to train and eat regularly, etc...many people neglect it, but it is very important.
500-1000mg/week of AAS is good starting dosage for someone close to his limits of gaining naturally, IMO, for the first cycle.
After that, it has to be increased, as well, as one's ability to eat more(very important, but neglected, by most part).

 

[panerai]

Re: Re: If you want to double your gains then double your dose.

Yes, but I do not recommend test at all, so there!

Let's put it that way, 600mg of Nandrolone is FAR better then 300mg.


Especially, if you use twice as much Test with it, and some dbol...

 

[2Thick]

Re: Re: Re: If you want to double your gains then double your dose.

Let's put it that way, 600mg of Nandrolone is FAR better then 300mg.


Especially, if you use twice as much Test with it, and some dbol...

LOL... I would never recommend 600mg of Deca. That is a pair of man-boobies waiting to grow.

 

[2Thick]

It's great having you weigh in here bro.

Thanks bro. It is always a pleasure to learn from enlightened gurus.

On a side note, the link does not seem to work for me. Is there somewhere else I could read it?

 

[sk*]

Thanks bro. It is always a pleasure to learn from enlightened gurus.

On a side note, the link does not seem to work for me. Is there somewhere else I could read it?

A new link got posted mid way through the thread.

-sk

 

[2Thick]

A new link got posted mid way through the thread.

-sk

I hope that you realize that this thread is 6 pages.