Have you had liver damage from oral steroids?

[tropo]

I cant find anywhere where it pruritis is caused by any hepatic involvement. many other reasons. So your pruritis had nothing to do with hyperbilirubin or you taking orals> Not flaming just dont like mis information given out here to my homies.

Come on man, the internet is full of information about pruritus as a symptom of cholestasis caused by elevated bilirubin levels.

I'm not about to do the research for you, but everywhere that jaundice is mentioned, pruritus will be there as a major symptom. I have dozens and dozens of bookmarks to articles discussing it. I did a phenomenal amount of research when I was suffering from it....you tend to do that when you're ill.

If you come back with another reply like this, I'll paste some articles for you, but it's better you don't embarrass yourself and look again.

It surprises me that someone who spends so much time posting on an AS forum has not met anyone, or heard from anyone who developed cholestasis from oral steroid use. Pruritus is such a classic, textbook symptom of drug-induced cholestasis.

I suspect that most people who develop it go into hiding and keep it quiet. When a large bodybuilder suddenly drops 20 kg or more after working his ass off for many years, he's not going to go on parade.

 

[tropo]

Yeah, stupidly stayed on anabol for too long and my liver values were outrageous. Thing is I don't drink at all so thought orals would be ok..

That was my mindset too as a non-drinker.

 

[Varga]

I think we all made some stupid mistakes when it comes to taking orals one way or another( me included!),
if anything I hope this thread would make everyone understand that orals should not be taken for more than 4-6 weeks depending on the compound at a resonable dose without a 2-3 months break in between.

 

[Notorious_BIG]

there's a very good well informed thread bureid on this site from a guy I seem to remember he wasn't an MD,but was very close to MD qualified to comment
perhaps a pharmacist or I think now he was like a 3rd year med student
so to some extent he may have been more qualified as he's getting the info fresh and in an learning/teaching environment

cliff notes of what I remember
you cant continously bombard the liver with 17AA orals
you can overwhelm the liver's ability to regenerate and compensate for the assault
when you overwhelm the liver and cause damage it causes scaring- those sections wont be able to regenerate/repair
long term assaults cause scaring which leads to cirrhosis
such as seen in an alcoholic

as is typical of what we know with the body
some people handle assualts(whether it be orals,alcohol or tylenol) better than others
genetics? probably

bear in mind this is just my recall and my comments may not be "exact"
but the genral idea is
dont overdo orals
what's "over do"?
depends on the person
but generally keep the consumption moderate and short term
dont compound the 17aa assualt with alcohol

I wish I could narrow down enough the search terms to pull this thread
it's from about 5 years ago

I'm using my bookie character,but my main character has been on EF since may 2001

myself I dont do orals and have only done 3 test only cycles
one about 11 weeks
and two 4-6 weeks

but I have hepatitis C (since about 1987) so I'm well schooled on liver issues
never been sick and my enzymes are typically only mildly elevated
sometimes normal

also on another note
when liver cells become damaged and then die they release their contents(in particular liver enzymes) into circulating blood within the liver
which then of course enters the bloodstream
they pull blood to do a liver panel
to measure the presence of liver enzymes in the blood

more liver enzymes in the blood=more liver cells dying in the liver

 

[tropo]

there's a very good well informed thread bureid on this site from a guy I seem to remember he wasn't an MD,but was very close to MD qualified to comment
perhaps a pharmacist or I think now he was like a 3rd year med student
so to some extent he may have been more qualified as he's getting the info fresh and in an learning/teaching environment

cliff notes of what I remember
you cant continously bombard the liver with 17 alpha-alkylated orals
you can overwhelm the liver's ability to regenerate and compensate for the assault
when you overwhelm the liver and cause damage it causes scaring- those sections wont be able to regenerate/repair
long term assaults cause scaring which leads to cirrhosis
such as seen in an alcoholicas is typical of what we know with the body
some people handle assualts(whether it be orals,alcohol or tylenol) better than others
genetics? probably

bear in mind this is just my recall and my comments may not be "exact"
but the genral idea is
dont overdo orals
what's "over do"?
depends on the person
but generally keep the consumption moderate and short term
dont compound the 17 alpha-alkylated assualt with alcohol

I wish I could narrow down enough the search terms to pull this thread
it's from about 5 years ago

I'm using my bookie character,but my main character has been on EF since may 2001

myself I dont do orals and have only done 3 test only cycles
one about 11 weeks
and two 4-6 weeks

but I have hepatitis C (since about 1987) so I'm well schooled on liver issues
never been sick and my enzymes are typically only mildly elevated
sometimes normal

also on another note
when liver cells become damaged and then die they release their contents(in particular liver enzymes) into circulating blood within the liver
which then of course enters the bloodstream
they pull blood to do a liver panel
to measure the presence of liver enzymes in the blood

more liver enzymes in the blood=more liver cells dying in the liver

I've seen the same information other places.

If you take that last statement seriously, then it would seem to follow that whenever any liver enzymes show elevation there is DAMAGE going on that perhaps is irreversible.

We already know for a fact that liver damage from alcohol abuse is irreversible, so permanent damage from 17 alpha-alkylated orals is likely even after liver enzymes return to normal.

My lingering questions would be: If any amount of damage has been caused on one occasion (as in my case), would the liver be more susceptible to orals after that? Would the health of the liver be permanently affected?

I suspect the answer is: YES

 

[st8grad]

50-12
19% problems
1 in 5
hardly "exceptions"

This is also hardly a representative sample of users.

 

[tropo]

This is also hardly a representative sample of users.

Of course not. People who have become seriously ill from using steroids will not be reading this forum...apart form a few stubborn hard core users that is.

The ones who died will not be voting here either.

 

[Pat_McCrotch]

I've seen the same information other places.

If you take that last statement seriously, then it would seem to follow that whenever any liver enzymes show elevation there is DAMAGE going on that perhaps is irreversible.

We already know for a fact that liver damage from alcohol abuse is irreversible, so permanent damage from 17 alpha-alkylated orals is likely even after liver enzymes return to normal.

My lingering questions would be: If any amount of damage has been caused on one occasion (as in my case), would the liver be more susceptible to orals after that? Would the health of the liver be permanently affected?

I suspect the answer is: YES

lets clarify your statement about drinking causing liver damage and comparing it to roids.

Yes it does and this is why they get hepatitis then chirosis, scaring of the liver. your liver can and will regenerate itself when assaulted. Going out on a drinking binge will raise your values but they will return. When you do it over time. It is reversible in the early stages, once damage/scarring occurs this cannot be reversed.

So to relate this to oral roids yes it can cause temporary damage, but when coming off it returns to a normal functioning liver. if you use 17 alk for only God knows how long then yes you will damage/scar your liver enough to where it can cause problems that are not reversible.

Orals get a bad rap when used alone on alot of boards especially this board, but we seem to think it is ok to use as a kickstarter and that makes it safe. How so? You can do all oral cycles if you dont use them for long periods of time and at high doses. What is this time lmit and dose i have no clue. it si different for each person.

 

[Spartacus]

This is also hardly a representative sample of users.

perhaps
but as has been pointed out previously in the thread
those suffering major liver probs are unlikely to be posting on a chat board when they're as yellow as a banana

hey I'm a mortician
I've seen plenty of jaundice
and I've had 2-3 cases of deceased bodybuilders/lifters in their late 20s to late 30s

 

[Pat_McCrotch]

Come on man, the internet is full of information about pruritus as a symptom of cholestasis caused by elevated bilirubin levels.

I'm not about to do the research for you, but everywhere that jaundice is mentioned, pruritus will be there as a major symptom. I have dozens and dozens of bookmarks to articles discussing it. I did a phenomenal amount of research when I was suffering from it....you tend to do that when you're ill.

If you come back with another reply like this, I'll paste some articles for you, but it's better you don't embarrass yourself and look again.

It surprises me that someone who spends so much time posting on an AS forum has not met anyone, or heard from anyone who developed cholestasis from oral steroid use. Pruritus is such a classic, textbook symptom of drug-induced cholestasis.

I suspect that most people who develop it go into hiding and keep it quiet. When a large bodybuilder suddenly drops 20 kg or more after working his ass off for many years, he's not going to go on parade.

From my understanding elevated bili does not cause cholestasis it is the other way around. I see what your saying. When the common bile duct is comprimised by gallstones it causes the liver to not function as it chould therefore causing your bili and other liver enzymes to elevate, causing jaundice etc.... which in turn causes the itchy skin. i misunderstood what you were saying i guess. No need to be a dick head about it just talking about the subject so we can all learn. pruritis is caused by so many things. one of the more common cause I see in the ERs is uremia.