Fight-club.ca?

[Sy Ali]

so do you guys focus a lot on like eye gouges and other techniques that would be illegal in mma/vale tudo? and less times on throws and say armbars/chokes?

Hard to say since I don't do any mma/vale tudo stuff myself.

Eye gouges.. I've never trained in that sort of thing myself. I've heard others talk about such things though. I think of it this way.. if I sparr (which I prefer to do slowly), I may point out something like that by perhaps patting the guy on the face if he's vulnerable. I would certainly appreciate having that kind of thing pointed out. Again, I've never really thought of the issue of training for mma/vale tudo "illegal moves", but others have talked about it (and from what I see they are really sick of talking about it). Nobody would want to be cruel to a training partner afterall. =)

Focusing on other techniques which are illegal in mma/vale tudo: Well I wouldn't say "focusing", but certainly something which is effective is pointed out and sometimes used. Again, we don't want to hurt oneanother in training .. much.

I've had a polite straight hand to the throat, there is some work pressure points at the neck, and manipulating (mma rules may call this "cranking") the neck is something I've had the pleasure of working with quite often. So again I would say that in training yes perhaps some things are trained for which are illegal in those arenas, albiet more gently than they might be used in real life.. although even in real life you only need to use as much force as necessary.

I could go look at the mma/vale tudo rules if you gave a link, and maybe comment on some things from my personal perspective. In the real world, I hope to not be shy about doing whatever it takes to keep myself safe.. but I prefer to only use as much force as I need to. I wouldn't ever want to get into a fight on purpose, nor would I want to hurt someone more than they needed me to.

Less times on throws and, say, armbars/chokes:

time.. first, I'll point out that there's no specified "amount of time" spent on anything. The content of every class is different (yes, every single one is unique).

Throws.. well I've forced people to go to the ground or roll, but I try to not use much force doing that, so maybe I'm not "throwing" them at all. Perhaps that is semantics and perhaps I don't quite understand what throwing is.

armbars.. one of the themes in training is to not allow onesself to be locked up with one opponent. Say you're in a bar and through whatever bad luck you get into a fight. If you "end it" with an armbar, then you've made yourself immobile. What if the guy had friends hanging back? What if he inconspicuously pulls a knife out while you have him down? It's better to do the work and dissuade an opponent from hurting you, and move onto the next person or away to safety.

It's difficult to explain, but when seeing an instructor demonstrating a bit of a fight, you'll notice things like subtle kicks or steps when the person goes down. There's no need to go down with the person to apply a lock, it's safer to stay standing and mobile and perceptive in case there's anything else to worry about. Training Systema leads towards working with multiple people.

Yes, there are methods for restraining a person which certainly apply. For example, there are police officers who train in Systema and are interested in such things. I'm not too interested in that sort of thing, and I'm not very experienced so perhaps I'm just lacking the knowledge to talk on the subject.

chokes... heh, I had an interesting class where I submitted and was choked for real from a couple of perspectives. Man, that left me shaken.. but it was interesting to realise that I could still find ways to breathe and I still had a lot of hope to continue to fight. The psychology of being in such a position is quite scary, but I hope to work with that some more. So in a word, yes, chokes have been a part of training, but they don't appear to be a regular part of my curriculum. I'm content with working on the panic when someone stands, sits or lays on me.. it has similar feelings of asphixiation to being choked.

..

Lemme put it this way.. a kick/punch/grab to the nuts is a perfectly ok tool to have in one's toolbox, and I should be able to keep myself safe from such things. Also, we work with (training) knives, which has no application in (those) sports. =)

Basically speaking, the philosophies of the two things.. of Systema and sport fighting are quite alien to oneanother. This isn't saying that training in one would be bad for training in the other though, but again I don't know enough to comment too much, and a lot of others seem sick of such conversation.

 

[Kane Fan]

it's Sambo
Spetznatz is the Russian Special Forces
not sure on spelling of Spetznatz
but Sambo I believe is their fighting style altered to a sport
there is like sport Sambo and combat Sambo

 

[Kane Fan]

If you want to become an MMA fighter...
I think it is best to get your feet wet with the basics in Wrestling, Muay Thai and BJJ, go to schools and take classes that teach those individualy... Once you have the basics down, find a good school to learn MMA/Vale Tudo type fighting to put it all together



-BRR

I agree with that, but it's nice to bring something to the table, or the Cage if you prefer, that the other fighters may not be used to

 

[Judo Tom]

Hard to say since I don't do any mma/vale tudo stuff myself.

Eye gouges.. I've never trained in that sort of thing myself. I've heard others talk about such things though. I think of it this way.. if I sparr (which I prefer to do slowly), I may point out something like that by perhaps patting the guy on the face if he's vulnerable. I would certainly appreciate having that kind of thing pointed out. Again, I've never really thought of the issue of training for mma/vale tudo "illegal moves", but others have talked about it (and from what I see they are really sick of talking about it). Nobody would want to be cruel to a training partner afterall. =)

Focusing on other techniques which are illegal in mma/vale tudo: Well I wouldn't say "focusing", but certainly something which is effective is pointed out and sometimes used. Again, we don't want to hurt oneanother in training .. much.

I've had a polite straight hand to the throat, there is some work pressure points at the neck, and manipulating (mma rules may call this "cranking") the neck is something I've had the pleasure of working with quite often. So again I would say that in training yes perhaps some things are trained for which are illegal in those arenas, albiet more gently than they might be used in real life.. although even in real life you only need to use as much force as necessary.

I could go look at the mma/vale tudo rules if you gave a link, and maybe comment on some things from my personal perspective. In the real world, I hope to not be shy about doing whatever it takes to keep myself safe.. but I prefer to only use as much force as I need to. I wouldn't ever want to get into a fight on purpose, nor would I want to hurt someone more than they needed me to.

Less times on throws and, say, armbars/chokes:

time.. first, I'll point out that there's no specified "amount of time" spent on anything. The content of every class is different (yes, every single one is unique).

Throws.. well I've forced people to go to the ground or roll, but I try to not use much force doing that, so maybe I'm not "throwing" them at all. Perhaps that is semantics and perhaps I don't quite understand what throwing is.

armbars.. one of the themes in training is to not allow onesself to be locked up with one opponent. Say you're in a bar and through whatever bad luck you get into a fight. If you "end it" with an armbar, then you've made yourself immobile. What if the guy had friends hanging back? What if he inconspicuously pulls a knife out while you have him down? It's better to do the work and dissuade an opponent from hurting you, and move onto the next person or away to safety.

It's difficult to explain, but when seeing an instructor demonstrating a bit of a fight, you'll notice things like subtle kicks or steps when the person goes down. There's no need to go down with the person to apply a lock, it's safer to stay standing and mobile and perceptive in case there's anything else to worry about. Training Systema leads towards working with multiple people.

Yes, there are methods for restraining a person which certainly apply. For example, there are police officers who train in Systema and are interested in such things. I'm not too interested in that sort of thing, and I'm not very experienced so perhaps I'm just lacking the knowledge to talk on the subject.

chokes... heh, I had an interesting class where I submitted and was choked for real from a couple of perspectives. Man, that left me shaken.. but it was interesting to realise that I could still find ways to breathe and I still had a lot of hope to continue to fight. The psychology of being in such a position is quite scary, but I hope to work with that some more. So in a word, yes, chokes have been a part of training, but they don't appear to be a regular part of my curriculum. I'm content with working on the panic when someone stands, sits or lays on me.. it has similar feelings of asphixiation to being choked.

..

Lemme put it this way.. a kick/punch/grab to the nuts is a perfectly ok tool to have in one's toolbox, and I should be able to keep myself safe from such things. Also, we work with (training) knives, which has no application in (those) sports. =)

Basically speaking, the philosophies of the two things.. of Systema and sport fighting are quite alien to oneanother. This isn't saying that training in one would be bad for training in the other though, but again I don't know enough to comment too much, and a lot of others seem sick of such conversation.

damn that is another great post about the art!

that sounds really cool and sounds like you have a good instructor and group of students.

these are throws.. http://judoinfo.com/animate.htm most mma guys will call them takedowns or what not

good luck with your training!!!

 

[Sy Ali]

it's Sambo
Spetznatz is the Russian Special Forces
not sure on spelling of Spetznatz
but Sambo I believe is their fighting style altered to a sport
there is like sport Sambo and combat Sambo

The Spetsnaz train/trained in all kinds of things, and from I've been told yes some of them do/did Sambo, others include/included Karate, and others had influences from Systema. I guess the Soviet's were experimenting with what was effective in what circumstances, or different people oversaw the development of training methods for different units.

I'm not current with what's done now. I know for sure of one unit which studies Systema with the traditional russian martial arts influence which fight-club also teaches. One day I'll go to Russia and train with them, but that's a long way away. (reasons include time, money, ability, effort, etc)

As I understand, Systema training isn't even consistant between units.

Sport Sambo was developed by the same guy who developed Combat Sambo. "Combat Sambo Spetsnaz" was, from what I'm told, used to mislead people into believing there is a relation to Sambo. Think of it this way.. back in the Soviet days, most people (even in the military) didn't even know the Spetsnaz existed. There's no way the military would allow their training methods or I suppose even the name of one to be leaked.

---

that sounds really cool and sounds like you have a good instructor and group of students.

Damned straight! =) It's like we all think about the same.. it's lots of fun to work with any kind of person. I even get to work with first-day students and I learn as much with them as with seniors.

these are throws.. http://judoinfo.com/animate.htm most mma guys will call them takedowns or what not

I've seen that page.. it's awesome stuff.

good luck with your training!!!

Thanks! It'll take me lots more time before I'm confident though..

Cheers,

 

[Kane Fan]

either way I want to learn some Sport Sambo someday
it also occured to me in Russian Sambo might be like combat or fighting or something, I hadn't previously thought of that so if that was the case Karate etc would be 'sambo'
however I do not speak Russian so I don't know

 

[Sy Ali]

either way I want to learn some Sport Sambo someday
it also occured to me in Russian Sambo might be like combat or fighting or something, I hadn't previously thought of that so if that was the case Karate etc would be 'sambo'

Careful.. Sport Sambo and Combat Sambo are very different. Think along the lines of the differences between Sport Judo and traditional Judo. Or maybe even the differences between Jujitsu and Aikido. Sport Sambo and Combat Sambo are different, and so would the training environments, teachers etc..

No, Karate etc is not 'sambo'. Sambo is a system unto itself. I was describing how military units wouldn't necessarily train in just sambo exclusively.

 

[USMC fighter]

It really sounds alot like the martial arts program we Marines have been using.

 

[casualbb]

I really like the way systema uses legs.

The basic premise is that true "kicks" leave someone vulnerable from a balance standpoint since you're only standing on one leg. So in systema your kicks aren't designed to do damage, but rather unbalance an opponent with economy of motion.

For instance, if an opponent kicks at you, you can intercept his leg with yours and push it a certain direction, leaving him off-balance.

They also do a lot of very low-effort trips and sweeps. In another example, say a dude stabs at a systema person. A common move it to deflect the knife hand while pushing it along its near-original trajectory. THe act of adding force to his stab will unbalance him and make him move forward to compensate; in the meantime the systemaan could plant his foot in front of the other guy's foot, tripping him, or he could kick the back of the knee with the opposing foot, collapsing him.

It's very aikido-like but even more flow-y

 

[Kane Fan]

I really like the way systema uses legs.

The basic premise is that true "kicks" leave someone vulnerable from a balance standpoint since you're only standing on one leg. So in systema your kicks aren't designed to do damage, but rather unbalance an opponent with economy of motion.

For instance, if an opponent kicks at you, you can intercept his leg with yours and push it a certain direction, leaving him off-balance.

They also do a lot of very low-effort trips and sweeps. In another example, say a dude stabs at a systema person. A common move it to deflect the knife hand while pushing it along its near-original trajectory. THe act of adding force to his stab will unbalance him and make him move forward to compensate; in the meantime the systemaan could plant his foot in front of the other guy's foot, tripping him, or he could kick the back of the knee with the opposing foot, collapsing him.

It's very aikido-like but even more flow-y

I like that, it sounds cool
I often use my kicks to confuse people unless there is a really glarring opportunity