Estrogen Questions

[rockdoc]

Couple Q's for the more technically minded here.

1. Is aromatization the only means by which estrogen is produced in males?

2. Does an AI increase testosterone's interaction with 5-alpha reductase due to decreased interaction with aromatase?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Couple Q's for the more technically minded here.

1. Is aromatization the only means by which estrogen is produced in males?

2. Does an AI increase testosterone's interaction with 5-alpha reductase due to decreased interaction with aromatase?

No and no.

 

[halfcenturian]

LOL! Nelson, can you be a bit more to the point.

 

[needtogetaas]

No and no.

 

[automaticj5]

lol -- you didnt want any explanation I hope

 

[Varga]

estrogen is produced in your body regardless of how high or low your test is .....Aromatization is a byproduct of high levels of test, it's a way for your body to get rid of extra test and stop its production. Why are you asking if you dont mind me asking bro?

 

[rockdoc]

No and no.

What are the other ways that estrogen is produced?

 

[rockdoc]

estrogen is produced in your body regardless of how high or low your test is .....Aromatization is a byproduct of high levels of test, it's a way for your body to get rid of extra test and stop its production. Why are you asking if you dont mind me asking bro?

In that case, how would estrogen be produced in a low test environment if not by aromatization? Just curious. I've never heard of any other way that estrogen is produced in males and thought someone else might know. It seems logical that if less test is being aromatized, then more would be available for other things. What happens to the extra test? More DHT? More free T? More bound T?

 

[the_alcatraz]

No and no.

I am also interested in the details on this Nelson

 

[needtogetaas]

In that case, how would estrogen be produced in a low test environment if not by aromatization? Just curious. I've never heard of any other way that estrogen is produced in males and thought someone else might know. It seems logical that if less test is being aromatized, then more would be available for other things. What happens to the extra test? More DHT? More free T? More bound T?

environmental estrogens. Our food is a significant source of those: livestock is fed estrogens to grow faster and gain weight by retaining water; crops are sprayed with pesticides that mimic estrogens. phyto-estrogens” or the nasty man-made synthetic chemicals known as “xeno-estrogens"
impaired liver function
prolonged intense stress

 

[ryno9000]

Estrogen is naturally produced in the male body (although in small amounts) just as testosterone is produced in the female body (likewise...small amounts).

 

[Nelson Montana]

Estrogen is naturally produced in the male body (although in small amounts) just as testosterone is produced in the female body (likewise...small amounts).

Yes, women don't have testicles but they still have some T in their blood.

Preventing aromatization doesn't really make more T available. It simply blocks the e. Lowering SHBG makes more FREE T available.

 

[needtogetaas]

Yes, women don't have testicles but they still have some T in their blood.

Preventing aromatization doesn't really make more T available. It simply blocks the e. Lowering SHBG makes more FREE T available.

With higher estrogen exposer , liver production of SHBG increases. Estrogens that induce the liver to manufacture high levels of SHBG can come from a variety of sources including natural, phytoestrogens found in soy or taken as supplements (e.g., genistein, daidzein), and xenoestrogens found in our foods, cosmetics, beverages, and in our environment (e.g., phthalates and pesticides).

What I am getting at is even though estrogen levels maybe suppressed by Ai's or other means That dos not mean it is lowering shbg altogether (which is raised by high estrogen levels as well). Overall estrogen burden and exposure to the body could and very well might be quite high. Thus causing liver production of SHBG to increase

If you are taking ai's you should still be taking something to lower shgb

 

[sensational]

Pituitary and adrenal glands are also involved in the production of estrogen. However, as this study shows, aromatization is the primary means by which men produce estrogen...without the aromatase enzyme there is pathology.

: Eur J Endocrinol. 2006 Oct;155(4):513-22. Links
Hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis in two men with aromatase deficiency: evidence that circulating estrogens are required at the hypothalamic level for the integrity of gonadotropin negative feedback.Rochira V, Zirilli L, Genazzani AD, Balestrieri A, Aranda C, Fabre B, Antunez P, Diazzi C, Carani C, Maffei L.
Integrated Department of Medicine, Endocrinology, Metabolism and Geriatrics, University of Modena and Reggio Emilia, Modena, Italy.

BACKGROUND: In men, the feedback of gonadotropins is regulated by estrogens that come from the aromatization of testosterone, but the relative contribution to the inhibition of LH and FSH secretion by the amount of locally produced estrogens within the hypothalamus and/or the pituitary, and the amount of circulating estrogens still remains unknown. OBJECTIVE: In order to evaluate the effect of regulation induced by estradiol on the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal (HPG) axis, we studied the pulsatility of LH and FSH in two aromatase-deficient men (called subject 1 and subject 2), in which the production rate of estrogen (both local and circulating) is completely, or at least severely, impaired. DESIGN: FSH and LH were evaluated in terms of their pulsated secretion and as GnRH-stimulated secretion in two phases: phase 1, before estrogen treatment; and phase 2, during estrogen treatment with 25 microg transdermal estradiol twice weekly. METHODS: Blood samples were taken during phase 1 and phase 2 at 0800 h for basal measurements of LH, FSH, inhibin B, testosterone, and estradiol. The analysis of the pulsatility of LH and FSH was performed by sampling every 10 min for 8 h in the two phases. Gonadotropin response to GnRH-stimulation test was studied by serial standard sampling after 100 microg GnRH i.v. bolus in phases 1 and 2. RESULTS: Estrogen treatment led to a significant reduction in both LH-pulsated frequency (7.5 +/- 0.7 in phase 1, 4.5 +/- 0.7 in phase 2) and amplitudes (3.5 +/- 0.006 in phase 1, 1.9 +/- 0.4 in phase 2) of peaks, whereas FSH showed only a conspicuous reduction in serum levels and a trend towards the reduction of the amplitudes of its peaks without modification of the frequency of the pulses. Both testosterone and gonadotropins decreased during phase 2, whereas estradiol reached the normal range in both subjects. Transdermal estradiol treatment significantly lowered the peaks of both serum LH and FSH after GnRH as well as the incremental area under the curve after GnRH administration in both subjects. Basal serum inhibin B levels were slightly higher before transdermal estradiol treatment (phase 1) than during estrogen treatment (phase 2) in both subjects. CONCLUSIONS: The administration of estrogen to aromatase-deficient men discloses the effects of circulating estrogens on LH secretion, exerted both at pituitary level, as shown by the decrease of basal and GnRH-stimulated secretion of LH and the LH pulsed amplitude, and at hypothalamic level as shown by the reduction of the frequency of LH pulses. The present study, coupling the outcomes of basal, GnRH-stimulated and the pulsatile evaluation of LH and FSH secretion in two aromatase-deficient men, demonstrates that circulating estrogens play an inhibitory role in LH secretion by acting on the hypothalamus and the pituitary gland of men. The discrepancy among testosterone levels, the arrest of spermatogenesis and a slightly inappropriate respective increase of serum FSH (lower than expected) suggests a possible role of estrogens in the priming and the maturation of HPG axis in men, an event that has never occurred in these two subjects as a consequence of chronic estrogen deprivation.

PMID: 16990650 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

So, while it may be interesting, the other means by which the male body produces estrogen are not significant enough to even discuss.

It is also interesting to note that the primary negative feedback for LH production in men is estradiol...not testosterone.

 

[Tatyana]

'Oestrogen' is actually a number of compounds, sex steroid synthesis is incredibly complex.

Men also have progesterone/pregnalone.

The other major synthetic pathway is in the adrenal glands which sit on top of both kidneys, they also produce all of the corticosteroids and glucosteroids, adrenaline, nor-adrenaline, cortisol, dopamine, erm, and I am forgetting a few.


This is a VERY simplified pathway for steroidigenesis, there are more compounds and reactions, I would have to post a separtate pathway for each of the three major sex steroid hormones to have all the reactions fit.

 

[nzrodney]

I believe I'm right in saying that all of the male bodys estrogen is converted by aromatase from testosterone. The most active form is estradiol. Excess estrogen can saturate the test receptors in the hypothalamus reducing the signal sent to the pituitary gland. This reduces the secretion of luteinizing hormone (LH) which is necessary to get the testes to produce testosterone. Excess estrogen also increases the body's production of sex hormone binding gobulin (SHBG) which binds to test & reduces the amount of free test available. Excess estrogen, therefore, is the BBers main concern & results in probably more than 50% of questions or related on this site.
Some have already eloborated on external food sources etc that contribute to this problem but here are a few more things to consider :

(1) Fat cells, especially in the abdominal region, produce the aromatase enzyme, which converts testosterone into estrogen.

(2) Reduce or eliminate alcohol consumption to enable your liver to better remove excess estrogens.

(3) Get 80-90 mg a day of zinc. Zinc functions as an aromatase inhibitor for some men & is essential in the production of testosterone.

(4) Increase the amount of cruciferous vegetables such as broccoli and cauliflower these promote the liver to metabolize and excrete excess estrogen

(5) Reduce or eliminate and medications that you are regularly taking that may interfere with your healthy liver function. Common medications include NSAIDs (e.g. ibuprofen, acetaminophen, aspirin), the "statin" class of cholesterol lowering drugs, some heart and blood pressure medications, and some anti-depressants.

 

[the_alcatraz]

environmental estrogens. Our food is a significant source of those: livestock is fed estrogens to grow faster and gain weight by retaining water; crops are sprayed with pesticides that mimic estrogens. phyto-estrogens” or the nasty man-made synthetic chemicals known as “xeno-estrogens"
impaired liver function
prolonged intense stress

Thanks for the info bro

 

[SuperOne]

Woman produce Estrogen mainly by their ovaries and adrenal glands i beleive, while men produce very little adrenal Estrogen.



I wonder if their is a way to stop the age related drop in Testosterone, and rise in Estradiol and SHBG in aging men, without having to use drugs? I mean why the hell does that happen in the first place and surely there is another option than using Testosterone injections and Estrogen lowering drugs, which cant be good for your body longterm and i have read longterm use damages liver and gall bladder.

 

[needtogetaas]

Now this is turning into a good thread.

 

[OneBreath]

Woman produce Estrogen mainly by their ovaries and adrenal glands i beleive, while men produce very little adrenal Estrogen.



I wonder if their is a way to stop the age related drop in Testosterone, and rise in Estradiol and SHBG in aging men, without having to use drugs? I mean why the hell does that happen in the first place and surely there is another option than using Testosterone injections and Estrogen lowering drugs, which cant be good for your body longterm and i have read longterm use damages liver and gall bladder.

In uneducated caveman terms i think we are programmed to be sexually healthy and vibrant to a certain age so we can spread our seed (age 16 to about 25). After that, it is maintained for the time it takes to care for our young (to age 35-40), then we are programmed to slowly die and thus get out of the way for the next generation to do the same.

Species are meant to perpetuate, individuals are not.

That's why i say f-ck genetics, fight the future!

 

[perryscoon]

So is testosterone produced in the ovaries in women?

And why don't women need testosterone for energy? What provides their energy?

 

[nzrodney]

In uneducated caveman terms i think we are programmed to be sexually healthy and vibrant to a certain age so we can spread our seed (age 16 to about 25). After that, it is maintained for the time it takes to care for our young (to age 35-40), then we are programmed to slowly die and thus get out of the way for the next generation to do the same.

Species are meant to perpetuate, individuals are not.

That's why i say f-ck genetics, fight the future!

Our bodies are designed to live well past 100 years. Its our environment & lifestyle that kills us off. You can delay the aging process by taking the "healthy options" but you need to combine this with a "young heart". Its as much a mental & spiritual process as a physical one IMO.

 

[sensational]

So is testosterone produced in the ovaries in women?

And why don't women need testosterone for energy? What provides their energy?

Exactly how is testosterone correlated with energy. The body's currency for energy is ATP...

 

[nzrodney]

Exactly how is testosterone correlated with energy. The body's currency for energy is ATP...

High levels of testosterone means sexual, physical & mental energy, stamina & vitality. More importantly for a BBer, is that Free Testosterone is the building block of cellular repair & growth when bound to proteins.

 

[perryscoon]

Exactly how is testosterone correlated with energy. The body's currency for energy is ATP...

Ever had low test? I have. Energy levels are next to nil.

But if you need proof, here ya go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone

 

[OneBreath]

Our bodies are designed to live well past 100 years. Its our environment & lifestyle that kills us off. You can delay the aging process by taking the "healthy options" but you need to combine this with a "young heart". Its as much a mental & spiritual process as a physical one IMO.

Good Point. We can use our knowledge and technology to delay the inevitable but without mental and spiritual youth it wouldn't be enjoyable. Youth certainly isn't on the calendar in this regard.

 

[Tatyana]

In uneducated caveman terms i think we are programmed to be sexually healthy and vibrant to a certain age so we can spread our seed (age 16 to about 25). After that, it is maintained for the time it takes to care for our young (to age 35-40), then we are programmed to slowly die and thus get out of the way for the next generation to do the same.

Species are meant to perpetuate, individuals are not.

That's why i say f-ck genetics, fight the future!

That is if all that we are is our genes, which is one of the theories that Richard Dawkins has put forward.

This does not account for things like altruism though.

It is a primitive theory to try and explain a very complex behaviour in animals, pair bonding and mating.

I also hate to break this to you, but humans have a brain that is more designed for monogamy, we have loads of dopamine recpetors (the reward system), over laid the oxytocin-bonding happy happy limbic system.

You only find this brain pattern in animals (mammals) that bond for life, for example the prairie vole.

 

[Tatyana]

So is testosterone produced in the ovaries in women?

And why don't women need testosterone for energy? What provides their energy?

We get energy from food,which is converted into ATP via glycolysis and the Kreb's cycle - electron transport chain.

There does seem to be a great deal of confusion about the function of hormones and the body.

During embryogenesis and puberty, the sex hormones are responsible for the differentiation of the embryo to the respective genetic sex, and to develop the secondary sex characteristics.

As adults, they serve more functions besides sex characteristics

Metabolic effects of oestrogen

- inhibits bone reabsorption
-decreases bowel motility
-affects liver function by stimulating protein synthesis, including SHBG and thyroxine binding globulin
-affects coagulation of blood by stimuating the production of the factors II, VII, IX, but decreases platelet aggregation (these factors are also made in the liver)
-effect on plasma lipids, decreasing total cholesterol, increasing HDL, decreasing LDL concentration
-secretagogue for growth hormone

Metabolic effects of testosterone

-spermatogenesis
-maintains the function and structural integrity of the seminal vesicles and prostate gland
-increases the basal metabolic rate through an increase in enzyme and other protein synthesis
- 10-15% increase in RBCs production (especially during puberty)
-increases muscle mass despite an apparent absence of androgen receptors in skeletal muscle, the effect may be due to an inhibition of the normal catabolic effects of the glucocorticosteroids in muscle

 

[OneBreath]

I also hate to break this to you, but humans have a brain that is more designed for monogamy, we have loads of dopamine recpetors (the reward system), over laid the oxytocin-bonding happy happy limbic system.

LOL, i prefaced with uneducated caveman terms. A concept beyond human comprehension could certainly not be explained by someone as low as me in a few sentences. I was mainly trying to be a little over the top in response to the frustrated "Why the hell does this happen" exclamation.

Its obviously a good thing i have not spread my seed!!

 

[Tatyana]

LOL, i prefaced with uneducated caveman terms. A concept beyond human comprehension could certainly not be explained by someone as low as me in a few sentences. I was mainly trying to be a little over the top in response to the frustrated "Why the hell does this happen" exclamation.

Its obviously a good thing i have not spread my seed!!

I think as you set your club down and can manage to type out a few sentences, you are beyond the cave man phase.

I have also been working my way through a psychology degree, and things like sexual behaviour have to be viewed from a biological, social psychology, evolutionary, and psychoanalytic perspective (to name a few) if you really want to get a well-rounded view on things.

It is fascinating, sex differences, which ones actually exist, and which ones are socially created.

 

[perryscoon]

We get energy from food,which is converted into ATP via glycolysis and the Kreb's cycle - electron transport chain.

There does seem to be a great deal of confusion about the function of hormones and the body.

During embryogenesis and puberty, the sex hormones are responsible for the differentiation of the embryo to the respective genetic sex, and to develop the secondary sex characteristics.

As adults, they serve more functions besides sex characteristics

Metabolic effects of oestrogen

- inhibits bone reabsorption
-decreases bowel motility
-affects liver function by stimulating protein synthesis, including SHBG and thyroxine binding globulin
-affects coagulation of blood by stimuating the production of the factors II, VII, IX, but decreases platelet aggregation (these factors are also made in the liver)
-effect on plasma lipids, decreasing total cholesterol, increasing HDL, decreasing LDL concentration
-secretagogue for growth hormone

Metabolic effects of testosterone

-spermatogenesis
-maintains the function and structural integrity of the seminal vesicles and prostate gland
-increases the basal metabolic rate through an increase in enzyme and other protein synthesis
- 10-15% increase in RBCs production (especially during puberty)
-increases muscle mass despite an apparent absence of androgen receptors in skeletal muscle, the effect may be due to an inhibition of the normal catabolic effects of the glucocorticosteroids in muscle

How much testosterone is produced in women?

 

[Tatyana]

How much testosterone is produced in women?

Here is a reference range, which may vary a bit from country to country, lab to lab

Test levels for women (in different units)

0.2-2.5 nmol/L

OR

8.7 - 72 ng/dL

OR

86-721 pg/ml

OR

200-2500 pmol/L

 

[OneBreath]

I think as you set your club down and can manage to type out a few sentences, you are beyond the cave man phase.

I have also been working my way through a psychology degree, and things like sexual behaviour have to be viewed from a biological, social psychology, evolutionary, and psychoanalytic perspective (to name a few) if you really want to get a well-rounded view on things.

It is fascinating, sex differences, which ones actually exist, and which ones are socially created.

Damn, how many degrees do you have? You must be able to soak up info like a sponge to have the knowledge you do and still have time to maintain that body.

I would imagine that not many, even the most educated, could objectively view such a complex subject through each of the perspectives you mention. My "objective" seems to always lean towards whatever perspective i think i know more about (club still in hand)

k for you on that response. Fascinating stuff.

 

[Tatyana]

Damn, how many degrees do you have? You must be able to soak up info like a sponge to have the knowledge you do and still have time to maintain that body.

I would imagine that not many, even the most educated, could objectively view such a complex subject through each of the perspectives you mention. My "objective" seems to always lean towards whatever perspective i think i know more about (club still in hand)

k for you on that response. Fascinating stuff.

I have three degrees, one in biology, one in biomedical sciences, I am one week away from finishing my Master's in Clinical biochemistry and I am doing a psychology degree by distance learning with the Open University.

The two degrees in the middle were part-time while I was working with the NHS, and they funded me to do it.

 

[OneBreath]

I have three degrees, one in biology, one in biomedical sciences, I am one week away from finishing my Master's in Clinical biochemistry and I am doing a psychology degree by distance learning with the Open University.

The two degrees in the middle were part-time while I was working with the NHS, and they funded me to do it.

NHS! Please bring your awesome mind and body across the Atlantic and help us. We are healthcare challenged

Good luck this next week on your Master's.

 

[perryscoon]

Here is a reference range, which may vary a bit from country to country, lab to lab

Test levels for women (in different units)

0.2-2.5 nmol/L

OR

8.7 - 72 ng/dL

OR

86-721 pg/ml

OR

200-2500 pmol/L

Per day?

 

[sensational]

Tatyana got to my point faster than I did. Energy is a word that is misused.

 

[perryscoon]

Tatyana got to my point faster than I did. Energy is a word that is misused.

Not misused at all.

Energy = the ability to do work

"In both men and women, testosterone plays a key role in health and well-being as well as in sexual functioning. Examples include enhanced libido, increased energy, increased production of red blood cells and protection against osteoporosis."

"Adult testosterone effects

Adult testosterone effects are more clearly demonstrable in males than in females, but are likely important to both sexes. Some of these effects may decline as testosterone levels decline in the later decades of adult life.

* Libido and clitoral engorgement/penile erection frequency.
* Mental and physical energy"

"Women use testosterones to treat low libido, often a symptom or outcome of hormonal contraceptive use. Women may also use testosterone therapies to treat or prevent loss of bone density, muscle mass and to treat certain kinds of depression and low energy state."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone

 

[sensational]

Not misused at all.

Energy = the ability to do work

"In both men and women, testosterone plays a key role in health and well-being as well as in sexual functioning. Examples include enhanced libido, increased energy, increased production of red blood cells and protection against osteoporosis."

"Adult testosterone effects

Adult testosterone effects are more clearly demonstrable in males than in females, but are likely important to both sexes. Some of these effects may decline as testosterone levels decline in the later decades of adult life.

* Libido and clitoral engorgement/penile erection frequency.
* Mental and physical energy"

"Women use testosterones to treat low libido, often a symptom or outcome of hormonal contraceptive use. Women may also use testosterone therapies to treat or prevent loss of bone density, muscle mass and to treat certain kinds of depression and low energy state."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone

Will get to it later, but I totally didn't explain my point well! lol

 

[10001110101]

all estrogens are aromatized from androgens in any mammal male or female.

estrone from androstenedione, estrogen from testosterone. women have more estro and less test because the environment in which testosterone is created (the ovaries) is saturated with aromatase enzymes causing rapid conversion into estradiol before being released into circulation. men have fewer aromatase enzymes and they are peripheral causing less conversion to estrogen.

 

[Tatyana]

Per day?

If you took a blood sample, then if a woman had 'normal' levels of testosterone, that is what you would find in the bloodstream.

Exactly how much is produced daily?

I am sure I could find a ball park estimate, however, it would vary quite considerably over the course of the month I would think when a woman is still menstrating, as all our hormones do.

 

[Tatyana]

Not misused at all.

Energy = the ability to do work

"In both men and women, testosterone plays a key role in health and well-being as well as in sexual functioning. Examples include enhanced libido, increased energy, increased production of red blood cells and protection against osteoporosis."

"Adult testosterone effects

Adult testosterone effects are more clearly demonstrable in males than in females, but are likely important to both sexes. Some of these effects may decline as testosterone levels decline in the later decades of adult life.

* Libido and clitoral engorgement/penile erection frequency.
* Mental and physical energy"

"Women use testosterones to treat low libido, often a symptom or outcome of hormonal contraceptive use. Women may also use testosterone therapies to treat or prevent loss of bone density, muscle mass and to treat certain kinds of depression and low energy state."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone

I think this is where there is a bit of confusion.

Biochemically at the molecular level energy = fuel (as an analogy), which for a cell, are the high energy bonds between the phosphate groups on ATP (adenosine triphosphate).

Creatine also carries high energy phosphates, but it is specialised for muscle cells under anaerobic conditions.

Testosterone is not a fuel, it is more like one of the petrol/gas pedals in the car, which has it speed up.

As far as metabolic pathways go, there are more than one pedal, something like thyroxine is like the gears, what speed you work at.

All hormones have an effect on metabolism in some way, that is what they are, chemical messengers to the cells to co-ordinate their actions.

 

[REFORMATA]

I think this is where there is a bit of confusion.

Biochemically at the molecular level energy = fuel (as an analogy), which for a cell, are the high energy bonds between the phosphate groups on ATP (adenosine triphosphate).

Creatine also carries high energy phosphates, but it is specialised for muscle cells under anaerobic conditions.

Testosterone is not a fuel, it is more like one of the petrol/gas pedals in the car, which has it speed up.

As far as metabolic pathways go, there are more than one pedal, something like thyroxine is like the gears, what speed you work at.

All hormones have an effect on metabolism in some way, that is what they are, chemical messengers to the cells to co-ordinate their actions.

Love the analogy...I had to read your posts approx. 3x before i could even begin to grasp what you were saying.....but, this is because of your obvious high level of intellect......and my obvious low level...Im with you Onebreath, good thing I havent spread my seed

 

[OneBreath]

Love the analogy...I had to read your posts approx. 3x before i could even begin to grasp what you were saying.....but, this is because of your obvious high level of intellect......and my obvious low level...Im with you Onebreath, good thing I havent spread my seed

I hear ya man, at least our self awareness of this state puts us above some.

 

[Tatyana]

Love the analogy...I had to read your posts approx. 3x before i could even begin to grasp what you were saying.....but, this is because of your obvious high level of intellect......and my obvious low level...Im with you Onebreath, good thing I havent spread my seed

Thanks

I was post on-call and low carbs, I hope I make things more clear than that.

I find how the body works just fascinating, it makes sense to me, I get these pictures of how it works, but a lot of the metabolic pathways and molecular biology is not that easy to understand always.

I have often had to read the same thing described several times, and by several different authors until I was able to understand it.

 

[jhondo]

I hear ya man, at least our self awareness of this state puts us above some.

Ha! I don't consider myself to be unusually stupid (just normal stupid) but there were a few posts in this thread that lost me. If my attention span was longer than 7 seconds, that might....oh look, a birdie!