Drunken style Kung Fu vs Kyokushin

[Spanky11]

ah, the difference between Kyokushinkai and Kyokushin
finally
thanks

there is no difference, some people call it kyokushin, others call it kyokushinkai.

the "kai" part simply means under one person. old school folks still call it kyokushinkai.

unfortunately now, since the death of mas oyama, the whole organisation is so fractured.

 

[Kane Fan]

I saw a documentary called Fighting Black Kings
it got me interested

 

[Spanky11]

Willy Williams was great!

William Olivier died 2 years ago...the other 2 guys from the us team simply faded away after the first world tournament

 

[Djimbe]

Do you think that since the majority of CMAs have no real set form of competition, it lends itself to be used by Charlitains?

CMA HAS set forms of Competition . Theyre called San Shou , or San Da . It means "Free Hand" and is prety much common of all the CMA systems with MINUTE Variations , such as the time permitted on the Ground to secure a Submission , etc. . Lei Tai is another , and is named after the Platform on wich its held , and has a LOT less Padding , usually . There are also Forms Competitions , Puish Hands Competitions , Sticky Hands competitions , etc . Heck , in China there are entire SCHOOLS devoted ONLY to MA ! Jet Li was a Graduate of one such school .

Arts like Kickboxing, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing and BJJ, you can ask your instructor how many fights they had in their carrer or how many tittles/belts they hold. You can also look at the stable of fighters competing out of that gym and see the quality. You have a clear cut way of knowing if they have been there and done that. Where as something like Drunken Style Kung Fu, you have no way of asking your teacher for "proof" of their knowledge.

I know MANY MT gyms that have plenty of Trophies and Belts , but they hold their own Promotions , and somehow all their fighters end up "winning" no matter HOW much they suck if it goes to a Discision . So you can have a LOT of "Proof" and verry little Pudding , to coin a phrase .

I went to the anual tournament in maryland and it made 2 things VERY Evident :

1) Ppl from MT and TKD schools that try to play by Lei Tai rules get DEMOLISHED for their arrogance . MT ppl in the states tend to think that "MT is A Superior Art" and they get eaten alive because they dont train to the Ruleset . I actually watched ppl gettting shipped off to the Hospital , one after another because they couldnt properly defend themselves against tactics wich they were unused to , typically High-Amplitude Slams . Their Response to "The Clinch" , and tactics like trying to LEAD OFF with Leg Kicks just gets them hurt .

I think it is the charlitains that have hurt the Chinese arts. I think it is the lack of standardized competition that has allowed people to slap on a Black belt and open a McDojo without really knowing the art.

Charlitains hurt ALL arts . And there are PLENTY of McDojos to go around .

Even the Japanese arts have forms of competition, be it Point-System karate, Judo or hitting eachother on the head with Bamboo swords.

Shuai Jiao is the Chinese Equivelant of Judo , and they have Competitions all the time , there are also Weaponssparring , and even the Childeren do Pointfighting in CMA . So far everything ytou have Mentioned Im used to seeing in ONE tourney . Forms Compeditors are Ubiquitous . The form is considered the Source Materioal , and the thing that tewaches you how to hold your Architecture in order to gain your Mechanical Advantage in the first place , maiking it the "Heartbeat" of the system . I have judged , AND Competed in ALL of these things in Tournaments before !

Aside from San Shou and MMA, I can't think of any other forms of competitions where CMA practicioners can display and test their skills.

Well , allow me to Enlighten you -

San Shou/San Da is a Ruleset , not a Style . Lei Tai competitions abound , as do Shuaijiao/Shuai Chiao comps , Push Hands competitions , Forms , Sparring Forms , Weaponsforms and Sparring Weaponsforms ...
its also of note that Most styles are also COMMUNITIES that have in-House tourneys to keep the quality of Judging up to their own standard . A Mantis expert may not know what to look for in a Hung Gar form .

and remembver , these are just a COUPLE of examples , Im not going to list every CMA tourney/event/team in the world for you ...

Seattle ...
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...sifu.html+John+Leong+Seattle+tournament&hl=en


Tourneys in Great Lakes AND Sao Paulo , Brazil ...
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...htm+sao+paulo++"+Kung+Fu+Championships"&hl=en

Maryland :
http://www.tienshanpai.org/usckf/tourn/index.shtml

Virginia :
http://www.atoctaijiquan.com/usachamps.htm

North Carolina ...
http://www.mhkungfu.com/Events/Tour...MA_Divisions/Lei_Tai_Rules/lei_tai_rules.html



Rules :
http://mhkungfu.com/Events/Tournaments/Competitors/CACMA_Divisions/Lei_Tai_Rules/lei_tai_rules.html
http://69.94.112.159/borntofight/downloads/btf5_app_new.pdf


Teams :
http://www.kungfu.net/gallery.html
http://www.cungle.com/cungle/fighters.html

 

[Big Rick Rock]

CMA HAS set forms of Competition . Theyre called San Shou , or San Da . It means "Free Hand" and is prety much common of all the CMA systems with MINUTE Variations , such as the time permitted on the Ground to secure a Submission , etc. . Lei Tai is another , and is named after the Platform on wich its held , and has a LOT less Padding , usually . There are also Forms Competitions , Puish Hands Competitions , Sticky Hands competitions , etc . Heck , in China there are entire SCHOOLS devoted ONLY to MA ! Jet Li was a Graduate of one such school .



I know MANY MT gyms that have plenty of Trophies and Belts , but they hold their own Promotions , and somehow all their fighters end up "winning" no matter HOW much they suck if it goes to a Discision . So you can have a LOT of "Proof" and verry little Pudding , to coin a phrase .

I went to the anual tournament in maryland and it made 2 things VERY Evident :

1) Ppl from MT and TKD schools that try to play by Lei Tai rules get DEMOLISHED for their arrogance . MT ppl in the states tend to think that "MT is A Superior Art" and they get eaten alive because they dont train to the Ruleset . I actually watched ppl gettting shipped off to the Hospital , one after another because they couldnt properly defend themselves against tactics wich they were unused to , typically High-Amplitude Slams . Their Response to "The Clinch" , and tactics like trying to LEAD OFF with Leg Kicks just gets them hurt .



Charlitains hurt ALL arts . And there are PLENTY of McDojos to go around .



Shuai Jiao is the Chinese Equivelant of Judo , and they have Competitions all the time , there are also Weaponssparring , and even the Childeren do Pointfighting in CMA . So far everything ytou have Mentioned Im used to seeing in ONE tourney . Forms Compeditors are Ubiquitous . The form is considered the Source Materioal , and the thing that tewaches you how to hold your Architecture in order to gain your Mechanical Advantage in the first place , maiking it the "Heartbeat" of the system . I have judged , AND Competed in ALL of these things in Tournaments before !



Well , allow me to Enlighten you -

San Shou/San Da is a Ruleset , not a Style . Lei Tai competitions abound , as do Shuaijiao/Shuai Chiao comps , Push Hands competitions , Forms , Sparring Forms , Weaponsforms and Sparring Weaponsforms ...
its also of note that Most styles are also COMMUNITIES that have in-House tourneys to keep the quality of Judging up to their own standard . A Mantis expert may not know what to look for in a Hung Gar form .

and remembver , these are just a COUPLE of examples , Im not going to list every CMA tourney/event/team in the world for you ...

Seattle ...
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...sifu.html+John+Leong+Seattle+tournament&hl=en


Tourneys in Great Lakes AND Sao Paulo , Brazil ...
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...htm+sao+paulo++"+Kung+Fu+Championships"&hl=en

Maryland :
http://www.tienshanpai.org/usckf/tourn/index.shtml

Virginia :
http://www.atoctaijiquan.com/usachamps.htm

North Carolina ...
http://www.mhkungfu.com/Events/Tour...MA_Divisions/Lei_Tai_Rules/lei_tai_rules.html



Rules :
http://mhkungfu.com/Events/Tournaments/Competitors/CACMA_Divisions/Lei_Tai_Rules/lei_tai_rules.html
http://69.94.112.159/borntofight/downloads/btf5_app_new.pdf


Teams :
http://www.kungfu.net/gallery.html
http://www.cungle.com/cungle/fighters.html

Wow, great info.

Here is a question for ya. With so many great MA schools and top notch instructors in China. Why do you think there aren't any Chinese MMA fighters making an impact in either pride or the UFC? I mean, we have a Chinese proffesional basket player, but no MMA guys. Even a tiny country like "El Salvador" has a good MMA fighter in the UFC. But China has almost no representation at all anywhere.

I thought that with the Bushido series becoming as big as it has, there would be some crazy tiny little Kung Fu chinese guys kicking ass. It seems like there are none at all. There are tons of Brazilians, Russians, Dutch and American fighters, but no Chinese guys, and China has some of the oldest MAs in the world....

Any ideas?



-BRR

 

[Djimbe]

Wow, great info.

Here is a question for ya. With so many great MA schools and top notch instructors in China.

ACTUALLY ....

China messed itself up during the so-called "Cultural Revoloution" . They did everything that they could to Eliminate Chinese Culture , and the Martial Arts are a HUGE part of that . Many of the best Teachers now reside OUTSIDE China , where current Popular Culture lends them very little Respect , typically . Its funny as HECK to watch my 65 year old teacher uttely DESTROY so-called "Expert Athlestes" 1/3 his age effortlessly , but he still has no students under thirty to speak of . And for as good as he is , he has VERY few students at all . Weve seen ppl come in , Challenge the guy , get TOTALLY DESTROYED , and yet keep believing that whatever they were doing was the best system there was . Even though he NEVER lets any of the young and Muscley guys take the Challenges . And the guy is MAYBEY 160 soaking wet .

Why do you think there aren't any Chinese MMA fighters making an impact in either pride or the UFC? I mean, we have a Chinese proffesional basket player, but no MMA guys. Even a tiny country like "El Salvador" has a good MMA fighter in the UFC. But China has almost no representation at all anywhere.

I thought that with the Bushido series becoming as big as it has, there would be some crazy tiny little Kung Fu chinese guys kicking ass. It seems like there are none at all. There are tons of Brazilians, Russians, Dutch and American fighters, but no Chinese guys, and China has some of the oldest MAs in the world....

Any ideas?

I think its Cultural .

I mean , firstly , in the Beginning no good CMA ppl were asked to Participate in the early UFCs , and the entire Community felt REALLY Snubbed by this . Especially when some ppl were SUPPOSED to be Representatives of certain Systems that had obviously never trained in them .

Secondly , the rules and Environment cater to the Groundfighter . In San Da/San Shou matches there is a Mat Time Limit usually between 30-90 seconds . THis is done to make SURE that the Techniques being Judged would be actually Useful in a real Fight . Ground Subs are cool , but if you cant get it in 90 sec its not really Viable in Combat .

Thirdly , Networking .
Birds of a Feather tend to Flock Together . and the Opposites ring true as well ...

Fourthly , the REASON ppl train . Most EAMAs arent TAKEN by ppl whom are Jocks . They arent even taken for Competitive Reasons . Think about it . Most ppl train in Wrestling TO COMPETE , that means their Coach handpicked them for Geneetics , then trained him 25+ hours/week .Most ppl take MAs just to know enough to get home safely . thats like 2-6 hours/week ! Over 10 yearsa that REALLY makes a Discrepency in skill level ! Not to MENTION that the lil nerdy dude that did the EAMA did it just to be SAFE from the kind of guy handpicked to do Wrestling !

Fifthly , China .
Its a POOR Country , and the ppl there dont have the OPPORTUITIES to train for and Participate in such events . Much less Travel to them ! Mot ppl there dont even have TELEVISIONS ! and its an ENOURMOUS Landmass , as well . MMA just isnt what it is here over there .

Sixthly many IMAs are done JUST for Health by some ppl , like Yoga .

 

[Djimbe]

Seventhly :

Kung Fu schools just arent where ppl interesteds in Careers in Competitive Fighting tend to GO ! The current Marketing and Climate created by the MMA Community says that NO ONE but them is capable of creating Fighters , and its a pretty pervasive and POersuasive sentiment . People REALY BELIEVE it , wether or not its true - so the real "GLadiator Types" , at least from a Mental Standpoint , arent exactly Flocking to the Guans out there , theyre looking into MT and BJJ .

 

[Spanky11]

there has been a few chinese fighters that entered various kyokushin tournaments at international levels, and well, the results were like the vid posted earlier.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

djimbe,

I think there must be something else to it. I mean yes MMA does have some ground fighting, but many Kickboxers like Bas, Maurice Smith, Crocop and Overeem have done really well there. And with all of the different CMA styles, I'm sure at least ONE must include some ground fighting that a Chinese MA guy could train in. And sure China may be poor, but Brazil aint rich either, some of the E. Europe countries that are putting out a lot of talent don't have a pot to piss on either.

Ok, even if there isn't anybody in China interested in competing in MMA tournaments (even if it was just for the money) I really haven't seen any fighters from other countries list a Chinese Martial Art as their style. We really cannot make the argument that CMA practicioners do not do well in MMA because of the ground fighting, I mean ONE of the Kung Fu Animals HAS TO know how to sprawl or slap on an armbar!






-BRR

 

[Yarg!]

Delucia actually did list 5 Animal Kung Fu as his style, and we all knew how that turned out...