Drop sets..

[macrophage69alpha]

Do you have a link handy that discusses this (or myofascia in general)? I am forming my opinion based on logic, which doesn't necessarily follow science.

EDIT: Actually, what you wrote supports my point - the fascia didn't restrict growth; growth overcame the fascia. Hence, the fascia wasn't the limiting factor at all.

particularly with the case of calves the muscle fascia is a growth limiting factor for most people, the type of training and volume that they (sprinters) do leads to tearing of the fascia to allow for muscular growth.

the fascia is a limiting factor. Though its certainly not the only one. The golgi tendon apparatus also significantly affects muscular growth and more importantly strength

 

[fortunatesun]

I believe all of us have slightly missed the mark in this arguement, except for the contention that pump is of more use to bodybuilders than powerlifters.
The following quotes are from Kelly Bagget of Higher-Faster-Sports.com. I'll provide the link so you can get the full context of what I've reprinted. I also recommend the entire article as it both contains lots of useful information and dispells many common misconceptions about muscle growth.

A Training Philosophy For Solid Mass Gain

Growth is stimulated from a combination of tension , total work , and fatigue . As we'll see in a minute... progressively increasing tension at a given level of work is the primary stimulus for ongoing gains in growth. Factors related to fatigue might add around 10% to that.

1. Tension

To get maximal tension on all available fibers in a given muscle requires full motor recruitment in that muscle. This can occur 2 ways:

A: Lifting a heavy load (80%+) so that all the muscle cells are firing from the first rep. (example: lifting an 80% load for 5 reps)

B: Lifting a light load in a fatigued state so that your muscles "think" the load is heavy. (example: lifting a 50% load with short rest intervals and having the weight feel heavier than your ass after a 5 mile run.)


Any time you put forth a maximal effort and have to really strain to move the weight, regardless of the weight on the bar, all the muscle fibers in the working muscle turn on and "tense" up. This is tension. Get a muscle fiber to tense up often enough in a workout and it gets damaged. Your muscles don't know how much weight they're lifting, they only know they're working. It's not necessarily the weight that induces hypertrophy but the muscles "go through" while lifting the weight.

2. What's the difference between heavy and light loads for tension?

Having said that, there's a difference between lifting a light load in a state of tension that "feels" heavy and one that "is" heavy. The main difference between the 2 is that the heavier load will induce earlier recruitment of the fast twitch fibers and more eccentric microtrauma during the lowering phase of a movement which is the primary stimulus for growth of muscle protein myofibrills, while the lighter load lifted in a state of fatigue, often associated with more repetitions, will tend to induce more growth through increased "energy and water storage" mechanisms.

3. Making strength increases and getting stronger over time is all about is all about increasing tension, while getting a "pump" is more about total work and fatigue. Suffice to say, the heavier you lift with a muscle or muscle group, the more tension you create in that muscle. Your muscles become damaged under tension and repair themselves by getting a little bigger so that they can better resist the load.

4. The "pump"

The more total work and temporary fatigue (due to lack of oxygen), you create in a muscle, (through high volume training, high rep sets, drop sets, static holds, rest-pause, etc.) the bigger the "pump" you tend to get. These methods are highly associated with the "Weider" principles.

7. Tension vs. Fatigue

Results that come from tension take place over a long period of time and tend to stick around for a long period of time. Results that come from "fatigue" (A.K.A. the "pump") occur much quicker and dissipate just as quickly.

9.Fatigue makes muscles "swole"

Although the growth that occurs from fatigue accounts for only maybe 5-10% of size increases, it gives the impression of contributing a lot more than that, since the glycogen storage and training methods associated with it also give one a tremendous and immediate "pump". That pump, which occurs from blood engorging the tissue, can temporarily increase the size of a muscle by probably 20% (which is why you never measure your arms cold or carb depleted.

10. If you increase your muscle mass by 50 lbs., about 45 pounds of that mass will come through improvement in tension related processes, and about 5 lbs. from "fatigue" processes. However, the extra 5 lbs. of fatigue related growth will be very "pretty".

11. The Recipe

Take a bodybuilder and give him give him a heavy dose of progressively increasing tension over a long period of time, along with some fatigue, big eating, and big scale weight increases, and you get a really big bodybuilder with round and full muscles.

The article continues with useful examples and training splits for those of you that work out.

 

[timtim]

Bench press dosen;t walk down the street. So, what do you bench??????????

365 at 5'5", 185.

Like I said, I just can't imagine a muscle not growing or even being limited by the fascia.

then you dont know much about anatomy and physiology. why do all the top pro's get deep tissue, ART, and stone therapy? to destroy scar tissue and tear the fascia to improve growth. its really simple. my chiropractor has about 6 guys from my gym going once a week for fascia stretching.

if you dont see why it why fascia is limiting muscle growth, here's a quick explanation. the fascia is a predetermined "garbage bag" surrounding your muscles and is skin tight. it will only allow for so much growth to occur and this is predetermined. if a skin tight garbage bag rips the garbage spills out. in your body these rips would allow for more contractile units to form hence increasing the size of the muscle. this is the purpose of synthol.

If it's possible to manipulate the fascia with massage, I gotta believe that muscular growth is not going to be affected by them whatsoever - that growth is gonna happen whether the fascia like it or not

go get one of these "massages", they are excrutiatingly painful. i had it done on my forearm yesterday, more for scar tissue than fascia stretching. i had the "massage" and moving stem done. i left dripping sweat.

it seems from your posts you are making opinions with no real life experience on this subject. its pretty cool really, you might benefit from looking into it. the stuff works but is very, very painful.

 

[Twoguns]

that growth is gonna happen whether the fascia like it or not

Hence my strech marks

 

[silver_shadow]

so i guess what some here are saying is that hypertrophy will happen because of pump rather than lifting heavy? did i get that right?

 

[trez]

Am being a bit of a posting whore atm... just wanted to say that I love this thread. Intelligent discussion of muscle growth etc it's great to hear from everyone

Trez

 

[Twoguns]

so i guess what some here are saying is that hypertrophy will happen because of pump rather than lifting heavy? did i get that right?

some are saying that, others are not. I think that, now stick with me, I lift heavy to get a good pump. I lift heavier to get a better pump. then my muscles get bigger. that is my bare bones take on it

 

[al420]

Dosen't the saying go - "Everybody wants to be big but nobody wants to lift heavy ass weights"

Seems as though this thread proves it up!

 

[timtim]

Dosen't the saying go - "Everybody wants to be big but nobody wants to lift heavy ass weights"

like i said earlier in the thread, there is a time and place for every lifting strategy. lifting heavy constantly will lead to alot of injuries and i know this from personal experience. i still implement max effort training protocols as much as i can but my elbows and shoulders wont push that much anymore. im actually seeing an ART chiropractor right now for both elbows and my right shoulder. since i cant lift heavy for now and what seems like the next few months, should i quit all together? i mean i cant go as heavy as possible so the other training strategies are crap so i should just stop? doesnt make much sense. much like lifting as heavy as you can all the time. periodized routines will result in more gains than one style of training (ie, max effort). and this includes training for the pump.

 

[al420]

"i still implement max effort training protocols as much as i can but my elbows and shoulders wont push that much anymore"

Then dosen't the definition of "heavy" change? Heavy is relative IMO. I hear ya though - heavy training is deff going to lead an injury now and again.