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do you think pedos are gay?

binö

Rob of Redford
Platinum
the pedos that work their sick game on boys, not gals.
think they are gay? is their a correlation between gayness and pedo-ness?
i joke with AAP about this but i'm being serious.
is their a connection?
discuss
 
no.

Gay pedophiles victimize the same sex.

Straight pedophiles victimize the opposite sex.

It is probably directly proportionate to straights/homosexuals in the overall community.
 
heatherrae said:
no.

Gay pedophiles victimize the same sex.

Straight pedophiles victimize the opposite sex.

It is probably directly proportionate to straights/homosexuals in the overall community.
have you ever repped a pedo?
would you feel guilt getting a pedo off on a technicality, knowing that he did the crime?
 
Bino said:
have you ever repped a pedo?
would you feel guilt getting a pedo off on a technicality, knowing that he did the crime?
I've only been asked once to represent someone accused of molesting his daughter. I turned him away because I didn't think I would represent him very well if I was under the impression he really did it. To fail to represent your client zealously is a breach of legal ethics, so I turned him away.

I have reprented LOTS of children in these cases. I've also represented the other parent. They are sad cases.
 
Someone find a credible source of research showing the % of pedos identifying themselves as gay.
 
AAP said:
Someone find a credible source of research showing the % of pedos identifying themselves as gay.
i have a hard time believing that a hetero male is gonna be turned on by a little boy.
now maybe he could be turned on by a little girl...but that would make him a pedo, not gay
 
I think pedos focus on ANY child they can con into abusing when given the chance. I'm certain they could care less if the victim was female or male as long as they nabbed 'em. Who knows.
 
AAP said:
Someone find a credible source of research showing the % of pedos identifying themselves as gay.
So, if a pedophile likes the same sex, you don't consider him a homosexual pedophile?

Similarly, if a pedophile victimizes the opposite sex, you don't consider him a straight pedophile?

I certainly don't think that gay men are a worry around my son, etc. I'm not one of those nuts who believe gay people are just attracted to ANY male. That isn't what I'm saying.
 
vixensghost said:
I think pedos focus on ANY child they can con into abusing when given the chance. I'm certain they could care less if the victim was female or male as long as they nabbed 'em. Who knows.
i was reading on wikipedia (dubious source for sure) that pedos stick to genders
a boy lusting pedo doesn't seek out girls, he seeks out lil boys
 
Bino said:
i have a hard time believing that a hetero male is gonna be turned on by a little boy.
now maybe he could be turned on by a little girl...but that would make him a pedo, not gay

Then you have no understanding of why pedos do what they do. Pedos are not aroused by gender.
 
AAP said:
Then you have no understanding of why pedos do what they do. Pedos are not aroused by gender.
I think that many are. I think that pedophiles tend to stick to a preferred gender. Some of them will victimize either gender.

I may be wrong. I'll do more research.
 
Bino said:
i was reading on wikipedia (dubious source for sure) that pedos stick to genders
a boy lusting pedo doesn't seek out girls, he seeks out lil boys


IF given the chance to "score" on abusing a child-I bet they would take what they could at the time.

IMO- It's not about being for one sex or the other- It's all about what is handy for them to abuse at the time. Just my 2 cents.
 
vixensghost said:
I think pedos focus on ANY child they can con into abusing when given the chance. I'm certain they could care less if the victim was female or male as long as they nabbed 'em. Who knows.


I've seen conflicting reports. But it seems as if alot of men who sexually abuse boys, do indeed sleep with grown women. But I think Vix may be right........some may prefer one sex or the other, but when it comes down to it, any kid will do in a pinch.

But one thing is certain..........these people are neither gay or straight, they're just sick. Most gay men I've run into are attracted to "men"........just like most of us straight guys like a nicely built woman with big boobies and great ass/legs combo. That's why a 6 yr old girl is not attractive to us because she doesn't have that development. But there's men out there that are only attracted to that kind of prepubescent development, or more aptly a "lack" of development. That's not hetero.........just because it's a little girl does not mean it's heterosexual. Seriously, at 5-6 years old.......is there much of a difference anyway?
 
The point of being a pedo is liking prepub victims... which prepub their bodies are nearly all the same with the except of some small bits on the male.

The rest.. smaller slim stature (mostly), hairless, etc.. is the same.
 
heatherrae said:
I think that many are. I think that pedophiles tend to stick to a preferred gender. Some of them will victimize either gender.

I may be wrong. I'll do more research.

You have kb's email?


pedobch-1.gif
 
redsamurai said:
I've seen conflicting reports. But it seems as if alot of men who sexually abuse boys, do indeed sleep with grown women. But I think Vix may be right........some may prefer one sex or the other, but when it comes down to it, any kid will do in a pinch.

But one thing is certain..........these people are neither gay or straight, they're just sick. Most gay men I've run into are attracted to "men"........just like most of us straight guys like a nicely built woman with big boobies and great ass/legs combo. That's why a 6 yr old girl is not attractive to us because she doesn't have that development. But there's men out there that are only attracted to that kind of prepubescent development, or more aptly a "lack" of development. That's not hetero.........just because it's a little girl does not mean it's heterosexual. Seriously, at 5-6 years old.......is there much of a difference anyway?
okay, so check this.
dudes on here are constantly alluding to wanting to bang younger girls cougcoughatwkbcoughcough.
and everyone lol's and all is good.
now, why wouldn't a younger dude be just as appealing for a older gay guy?
 
Bino said:
okay, so check this.
dudes on here are constantly alluding to wanting to bang younger girls cougcoughatwkbcoughcough.
and everyone lol's and all is good.
now, why wouldn't a younger dude be just as appealing for a older gay guy?

I never allude to banging younger girls. In fact, I say I can't stand younger girls and prefer older women. (like the old broads here)

all most all those pics are directed to kb or whoever is making comments. (like the one I posted a few minutes ago)


However, if it is offensive to anyone I would delete for sure.
 
all the whey said:
I never allude to banging younger girls. In fact, I say I can't stand younger girls and prefer older women. (like the old broads here)

all most all those pics are directed to kb or whoever is making comments. (like the one I posted a few minutes ago)


However, if it is offensive to anyone I would delete for sure.
that is a fabulous jack shitt quote
that dude had the best attitude of anyone here
he was a good bro
 
Bino said:
that is a fabulous jack shitt quote
that dude had the best attitude of anyone here
he was a good bro


no shit

Is he gone???? I been looking for him!
 
even if pedos stick to their gender preference, what makes you think that there are more gay ones than normal?
 
all the whey said:
I never allude to banging younger girls. In fact, I say I can't stand younger girls and prefer older women. (like the old broads here)

all most all those pics are directed to kb or whoever is making comments. (like the one I posted a few minutes ago)


However, if it is offensive to anyone I would delete for sure.


I'd be the first one to bitch at you if I ever saw you making a funny at a child's expense in a sexual nature. (For the record- I've never seen ATW post anything like that. I would not imagine that is his style- did I miss something?)

I can stand a whole lotta crap/jokes around here, but abuse to children is NOT one I'd tolerate!
 
nimbus said:
even if pedos stick to their gender preference, what makes you think that there are more gay ones than normal?
because their appears to be more boys getting violated than girls.
maybe the press makes it out to be so
 
AAP said:
The point of being a pedo is liking prepub victims... which prepub their bodies are nearly all the same with the except of some small bits on the male.

The rest.. smaller slim stature (mostly), hairless, etc.. is the same.
yes, but I think most of the sub-types of pedophiles stick to one particular gender, which is in direct conflict with your theory.
 
heatherrae said:
I'm not sure how closely 11:1 correlates with society as a whole, however.

Interesting.


However, I'm still standing on my belief that these creeps will target ANY child that has the broken wing- IE: Easy prey!
 
Bino said:
because their appears to be more boys getting violated than girls.
maybe the press makes it out to be so
I think that it just tends to make the news more. A man molesting a little girl happens so much as to barely even register on the press radar anymore.
 
Bino said:
now, why wouldn't a younger dude be just as appealing for a older gay guy?

Um, for the record, I won't give any guy under 27 the time of day. Just sayin'.
 
Bino said:
because their appears to be more boys getting violated than girls.
maybe the press makes it out to be so

i never thought that. on to catch a predator, aren't the dudes always trying to get with chicks?
 
Its crazy how much these pedos can just be easily pinpointed. Like if you took 100 prisoners and lined them up I bet you could tell who the pedos were. Generally fat, short and baby faced. Fucked up in breed facial features. Stupid look in there eyes. Just not intelligent enough to get it.

There whole demeanor really and how they carry themselves. Just pathetic.

Weak and need to be shot.
 
bino, you are living proof of the old expression "book smart and real world dumb".
 
vixensghost said:
I'd be the first one to bitch at you if I ever saw you making a funny at a child's expense in a sexual nature. (For the record- I've never seen ATW post anything like that. I would not imagine that is his style- did I miss something?)

I can stand a whole lotta crap/jokes around here, but abuse to children is NOT one I'd tolerate!

no no

I hate pedos

2 weeks ago a guy at the gym told me to help keep an eye on his daughters because the gym hired this creepy guy. A few days later the guy was staring at one he knew was about 12 and made a comment. I told him to STFU. (amongst other things.)

Told the gym owner and he fired him. (the guy had also said perverted stuff to older ladies)

After he was fired he came back and parked around the building at closing time. An 18 yr old girl was working who he bothered in the past. My friend was staying there because she was scared. My friend never cusses, never said a bad thing, and goes to church twice a week. He ran out and almost beat the shit out of him.lol
 
vixensghost said:
Interesting.


However, I'm still standing on my belief that these creeps will target ANY child that has the broken wing- IE: Easy prey!
I think it depends on their motivation. Some don't care about gender. Some are sadists. I think that a larger proportion do have sexual fantasies tied to a particular gender. I think the stats support that.
 
galaxy said:
Its crazy how much these pedos can just be easily pinpointed. Like if you took 100 prisoners and lined them up I bet you could tell who the pedos were. Generally fat, short and baby faced. Fucked up in breed facial features. Stupid look in there eyes. Just not intelligent enough to get it.

There whole demeanor really and how they carry themselves. Just pathetic.

Weak and need to be shot.
i agree...a part of me feels great pity for them, being so fucked up and brain short circuted.
i pity there upbringing, cause they proly were molested themselves...that's the only logical way i can see someone being into pedoness
 
heatherrae said:
I think that it just tends to make the news more. A man molesting a little girl happens so much as to barely even register on the press radar anymore.


I think most girls don't report it, because they are ashamed or scared.
 
galaxy said:
Its crazy how much these pedos can just be easily pinpointed. Like if you took 100 prisoners and lined them up I bet you could tell who the pedos were. Generally fat, short and baby faced. Fucked up in breed facial features. Stupid look in there eyes. Just not intelligent enough to get it.

There whole demeanor really and how they carry themselves. Just pathetic.

Weak and need to be shot.


true

I have some relatives who had friends from the church that would always have their kids spend the night.

I was only a kid. But, they just looked like child molesters and gave me the willys
 
heatherrae said:
Here is a link that I found to make lots of sense. They have devided pedophiles into subtypes and discussed their preferences. They gave a statistic of 11:1 straight/gay ratio on pedophiles.

http://childsafetips.abouttips.com/pedophiles-and-their-characteristics.php


11 to 1?

Damn.

Then again considering this statement, it is not surprising the vast majority are heterosexual.

"molesters have taken positions as youth pastors, boy-scout leaders, coaches, teachers, child-care providers, counselors, and employees at establishments that serve children."

We all know queerz ain't gonna work in them there career fields.
 
all the whey said:
I think most girls don't report it, because they are ashamed or scared.
or they reported it once and figured out real fast that when you report something like that, you have to repeat the story 300 times, people act like you are the criminal and analyze everything you said with an eye to proving you're lying. Then, if the guy does get found guilty, they give him a slap on the wrist. Nothing happens to him. It's easier just to go vigilante on them.
 
heatherrae said:
or they reported it once and figured out real fast that when you report something like that, you have to repeat the story 300 times, people act like you are the criminal and analyze everything you said with an eye to proving you're lying. Then, if the guy does get found guilty, they give him a slap on the wrist. Nothing happens to him. It's easier just to go vigilante on them.


Yeah, everybody wants you to tell it to them. Even the neighbors. You become the latest morbid novelty item. No wonder a lot of kids suffer in silence.
 
heatherrae said:
or they reported it once and figured out real fast that when you report something like that, you have to repeat the story 300 times, people act like you are the criminal and analyze everything you said with an eye to proving you're lying. Then, if the guy does get found guilty, they give him a slap on the wrist. Nothing happens to him. It's easier just to go vigilante on them.


yeah that is true.

I doubt most girls would want to go through the trial etc. It would just bring everything up again.
 
AAP said:
11 to 1?

Damn.

Then again considering this statement, it is not surprising the vast majority are heterosexual.

"molesters have taken positions as youth pastors, boy-scout leaders, coaches, teachers, child-care providers, counselors, and employees at establishments that serve children."

We all know queerz ain't gonna work in them there career fields.
lol.

I once was on the other side of a case where a man sodomized his own 6 year old daughter. It was years later, and I was representing the mom trying to keep him from regaining visitation rights to the girls. The girls didn't want to see him.

Guess where he was working? AN ORPHANAGE!!!! I nearly fainted when I tracked down who his employer was. I faxed them a copy of his sex offender registry and called them and asked what sort of background check they did. There is a website where he was clearly registered. IDIOTS. They promptly fired him. He still sends me the occassional death threat and tried to file numerous bar complaints against me.
 
Sometimes I really do think there is a correalation between intelligent and attractiveness.

I think for most they were abused and they see something that is young beautiful and pure and they just want to ruin that.

Ever read any of those pedo online convos? Pretty scary stuff.

A girl can just get done admitting to being raped by her dad and all the pedo has to say is that hes looking for a sex slave and he'll love her.

Fucking scum bags. And i know its easier said then done to execute, but its something we should consider.

Look at those two who killed that school president down south. Just shot her for no reason. They had her car and money. They just know prison is no big deal.
 
Bino said:
the pedos that work their sick game on boys, not gals.
think they are gay? is their a correlation between gayness and pedo-ness?
i joke with AAP about this but i'm being serious.
is their a connection?
discuss
often the personality and attitudes and comments displayed here are a pose; an "internet personality" that does not reflect their in person, true to life self....i hope and pray that bino is not as fucked up in person as he appears to be here. :worried:
 
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heatherrae said:
I think it depends on their motivation. Some don't care about gender. Some are sadists. I think that a larger proportion do have sexual fantasies tied to a particular gender. I think the stats support that.


The entire freak factor runs deep in them, HR. Often these "men" and "women" are square pegs trying to fit into a round world. They can control a child far easier than us adults so they take advatange of a child. Like rape, there has to be a control factor in this sickness too.

It's a very complex sickness.

I'd kill someone if I knew they hurt my child. I would.




ATW- Good for you. People often wonder why I carry this lil piece of paper that says I can carry a gun too. :) Need I say more?
 
rnch said:
often the personality and attitudes and comments displayed here are a pose; an "internet personality" that does not reflect their in person, true to life self....i hope and pray that bino is not as fucked up in person as he appears to be here. :worried:
i've never had anybody online or in person say i was fucked up, except for you.
you have a strange fascination with me, constantly busting my balls...it reminds me of the fatty i scorned in high school, she could never understand that i wouldn't hit it (that is, untill i was hosed and no one else was around)
 
vixensghost said:
The entire freak factor runs deep in them, HR. Often these "men" and "women" are square pegs trying to fit into a round world. They can control a child far easier than us adults so they take advatange of a child. Like rape, there has to be a control factor in this sickness too.

It's a very complex sickness.

I'd kill someone if I knew they hurt my child. I would.




ATW- Good for you. People often wonder why I carry this lil piece of paper that says I can carry a gun too. :) Need I say more?
Oh, don't get me wrong, there is the element of control there. I think that many are immature sexually and also like the idea of the other person having no experience.
 
They see something pure and want to destroy it. Or make it dirty. Its pretty basic and simple really. Of course we'll have ten different mental health workers trying to find out what made them stick there dick in there daughters ass. Sometimes I think the Mental Health worker is more fucked up to want to listen to it.
 
vixensghost said:
I think pedos focus on ANY child they can con into abusing when given the chance. I'm certain they could care less if the victim was female or male as long as they nabbed 'em. Who knows.
agreed.

pedo is a whole different disease than homosex
 
vixensghost said:
IF given the chance to "score" on abusing a child-I bet they would take what they could at the time.

IMO- It's not about being for one sex or the other- It's all about what is handy for them to abuse at the time. Just my 2 cents.
sort of how ill take a fat girl or skinny girl or any girl
 
heatherrae said:
or they reported it once and figured out real fast that when you report something like that, you have to repeat the story 300 times, people act like you are the criminal and analyze everything you said with an eye to proving you're lying. Then, if the guy does get found guilty, they give him a slap on the wrist. Nothing happens to him. It's easier just to go vigilante on them.


Or the kid is embarassed - i'm sure they know that telling someone might make it stop, but then everyone would KNOW. i'd never go away that it happened to you
 
cindylou said:
Or the kid is embarassed - i'm sure they know that telling someone might make it stop, but then everyone would KNOW. i'd never go away that it happened to you
yep. All those people looking at you like "poor little thing" probably even get old too.
 
heatherrae said:
yep. All those people looking at you like "poor little thing" probably even get old too.


more like you poor little "tainted" thing. Even parents do that. lol. Oh well, you cant help what ppl think or do.
 
aap, you are correct, pedophilla is about young children, the sex really dosent matter, its about sexualizing the child and power, gay or straight dosent seem like the bigger red flag to me
 
rnch said:
often the personality and attitudes and comments displayed here are a pose; an "internet personality" that does not reflect their in person, true to life self....i hope and pray that bino is not as fucked up in person as he appears to be here. :worried:
Attacking him for posing a legitimate, well-worded question is ridiculous. Maybe he should have entitled the thread: "More pedo gay bullshit" instead? I think bino was careful on his approach on this one so as to generate legitimate discussion instead of the useless bullshit that goes on in a lot of threads.
 
mrplunkey said:
Attacking him for posing a legitimate, well-worded question is ridiculous. Maybe he should have entitled the thread: "More pedo gay bullshit" instead? I think bino was careful on his approach on this one so as to generate legitimate discussion instead of the useless bullshit that goes on in a lot of threads.
i agree, he probably could have worded it a little more softly, but it is a good discussion
 
Bino said:
the pedos that work their sick game on boys, not gals.
think they are gay? is their a correlation between gayness and pedo-ness?
i joke with AAP about this but i'm being serious.
is their a connection?
discuss
All pedos are sick. Its clearly a mental disorder. I believe a lot of it is the result of psychosexual trauma.

Pedos probably do fall into classifiable types, some who go after same gender, some who go after opposite gender, some who go after both.

I wouldn't be surprised if the rate of same sex pedos generally mirrored the rate of homosexuality in society either.

What I do think blurrs the line is homosexuality itself. I think some homosexuality is a true genetically-biased preference. Also, I think some homosexuality is the result of psychosexual trauma. Therefore, there may be some overlap where the same psychosexual truma drives both pedophilia and homosexuality.
 
Without links to conclusive data, what you think is irrelevant.
 
AAP said:
Without links to conclusive data, what you think is irrelevant.
True... without hard numbers across significant populations, I'd be stuck simply pointing to singular incidents and trying to generalize them across broad populations. I'm sure we can all agree that would be really lame and pointless.
 
mrplunkey said:
Attacking him for posing a legitimate, well-worded question is ridiculous. Maybe he should have entitled the thread: "More pedo gay bullshit" instead? I think bino was careful on his approach on this one so as to generate legitimate discussion instead of the useless bullshit that goes on in a lot of threads.
where is RNCH;s outrage when peeps talk shit about jesus and christianity?
selective anger, weak on his part
 
mrplunkey said:
True... without hard numbers across significant populations, I'd be stuck simply pointing to singular incidents and trying to generalize them across broad populations. I'm sure we can all agree that would be really lame and pointless.


Except when I do it. Then it is accurate and amusing.
 
I don't see why gay people are so adamant about saying no pedophiles are gay. That is certainly not the same as saying that gay people are all pedophiles. We straight people don't have a problem saying that a majority of pedophiles are straight. I don't get why they find that offensive. I can certainly see why it pisses them off when they say straight people say something ignorant like they don't want their sons being in boy scouts if any of the troop leaders are gay. That's just ignorant.
 
Bino said:
where is RNCH;s outrage when peeps talk shit about jesus and christianity?
selective anger, weak on his part

Yup! And as soon as I saw the thread title I thought this is what would happen.

People should go back and re-read this thread from start to finish. Its a good example of how a touchy subject can be broached and developed on an Internet chat board.

I also find it amusing that anyone (not to single anyone out...) can claim to be "tolerant" yet be outraged by you merely posing a question regarding pedophilia and homosexuality. That's not too tolerant now, is it?
 
AAP said:
Except when I do it. Then it is accurate and amusing.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one and think you really don't believe that.
 
I think to label paedophilia as a legitmate sexual preference, whether it be gay straight whatever, is dangerous. This people tend to be more concerned with abusing the trust children have in adults. In fact recent UK studies have shown that it is mostly heterosexual men that engage in this deprivity, often they are married with children of their own. Abuse of young boys does seem previliant however, although whether this indicates homosexuality is rather dubious. So 'do you think pedos are gay?' no, they are sick and need to be chemically castrated. Once a society starts to intellectualise this sordid activity (arguments like, 'it was done in Ancient Greece etc') it really doesn't bode well for the future of Western civilisation.
 
klausflouride said:
I think to label paedophilia as a legitmate sexual preference, whether it be gay straight whatever, is dangerous. This people tend to be more concerned with abusing the trust children have in adults. In fact recent UK studies have shown that it is mostly heterosexual men that engage in this deprivity, often they are married with children of their own. Abuse of young boys does seem previliant however, although whether this indicates homosexuality is rather dubious. So 'do you think pedos are gay?' no, they are sick and need to be chemically castrated. Once a society starts to intellectualise this sordid activity (arguments like, 'it was done in Ancient Greece etc') it really doesn't bode well for the future of Western civilisation.
I don't think anyone said that pedophilia is a legitimate sexual preference. I also think we are all in agreement that a majority of pedophiles prey on the opposite sex.
 
heatherrae said:
I don't see why gay people are so adamant about saying no pedophiles are gay. That is certainly not the same as saying that gay people are all pedophiles. We straight people don't have a problem saying that a majority of pedophiles are straight. I don't get why they find that offensive. I can certainly see why it pisses them off when they say straight people say something ignorant like they don't want their sons being in boy scouts if any of the troop leaders are gay. That's just ignorant.
i think what they mean is, pedophiles arnt straight or gay.

they are pedophiles.

like i said, its a different disease than homosexuality
 
heatherrae said:
I don't think anyone said that pedophilia is a legitimate sexual preference. I also think we are all in agreement that a majority of pedophiles prey on the opposite sex.
what do you mean by "legitimate sexual preference"

how isnt it?

gays get turned on and get emotional/sexual enjoyment from same sex.

beastialitists get that pleasure from animals

pedos get it from children.

the only difference is how society views them
 
SublimeZM said:
i think what they mean is, pedophiles arnt straight or gay.

they are pedophiles.

like i said, its a different disease than homosexuality


homosexuality is not a disease.

I think categorizing pedophiles as "gay" or "straight" only helps to delineate whether that predator preys on same sex or opposite sex children. I would be amenable to someone creating another word to designate each of those preferences.
 
heatherrae said:
homosexuality is not a disease.

I think categorizing pedophiles as "gay" or "straight" only helps to delineate whether that predator preys on same sex or opposite sex children. I would be amenable to someone creating another word to designate each of those preferences.
neither is pedophelia, i just put that in there for emphasis...

also, why does it matter if you label the pedophile as gay or straight? by society's standards it doesnt really matter.

unless you are suggesting that gay pedophiles need more punishment than straight pedophiles?
 
People always accuse peodphiles of robbing the cradle. What if those kids are, in fact, robbing the grave? j/k :p
 
SublimeZM said:
neither is pedophelia, i just put that in there for emphasis...

also, why does it matter if you label the pedophile as gay or straight? by society's standards it doesnt really matter.

unless you are suggesting that gay pedophiles need more punishment than straight pedophiles?


Nope. I wouldn't suggest that. I think it is just a matter of further specifying which gender they prefer.
 
heatherrae said:
Nope. I wouldn't suggest that. I think it is just a matter of further specifying which gender they prefer.
would you trust a gay female pedophile around your son? lol
 
heatherrae said:
I've only been asked once to represent someone accused of molesting his daughter. I turned him away because I didn't think I would represent him very well if I was under the impression he really did it. To fail to represent your client zealously is a breach of legal ethics, so I turned him away.

I have reprented LOTS of children in these cases. I've also represented the other parent. They are sad cases.


In cases like these, where the guilt is obvious before the verdict, it's hard to imagine anyone wanting to defend them, no matter how much money. I think those that do are just as guilty. Just send them both off to their punishments.
 
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