DC and Westside for maximum size and power?

[nanotitan]

An interesting question for anyone familiar with DC training. How would someone adapt Dante's(Doggcrapp's) methods to a Westside powerlifting schedule? Westside training calls for two Max effort days, one for benches and one for squat/deadlift, where one would max out on a bench press-like exercise and on a squat/deadlift-like exercise once a week, rotating exercises every 1-3 weeks depending on the level experience.
There's also a Dynamic day where speed sets are performed but I don't think these are generally taxing enough to be considered as having to much effect hypertrophy-wise on the overall routine. All four basic workouts are completed by regular multiple set work on assistance exercises.
Basic WSB template would look like this:

Sunday(dynamic bench)-

bench press 9 sets of 3 reps@~55%1RM
Heavy Triceps work
Lats&Upper back
Shoulders
Abs

Monday(Max effort SQ/DL)-

Good morning or special SQ working up to 1-3RM
Hams (usually gluteham raise)
Lowback (usually reverse hyper)
Abs

(tuesday rest)

Wednesday(Max Effort Bench)-

Board press or Floor press or other, working up to 1-3RM
Additional triceps work
Lats&Upperback
Shoulders (if not too spent)
Abs

(thursday rest)

Friday(Dynamic SQ)-
Box Squats 12 sets of 2 reps@50-60%1RM
Hams
LowBack
Abs

(saturday rest)

Sometimes back is worked up to 4 times/week.

I would like to note that I'm a drug-free (and supplement-free) novice powerlifter in the 181's and although I have been training consistently for about five years (20yrs.old), incorporating Westside Barbell methods into my routine has added 120lbs. to my deadlift in 6 and a half months. All this without a large increase in muscle mass, but not for lack of trying(maybe 7lbs. although weighing the same now as 6 months ago, lower BF%).

This is where DC training would come in.

Since its proponents have spoken of trainees making 12-25lb gains in the first gaining phase (4-7 weeks), it should be interesting to see what kind of results a trained individual on WSB/DC combination training could achieve. But first the training program has to be designed and since I lack the necessary DC knowledge to adequately meld the WSB template with the 4 times every 8 days DC training, is anyone willing to take a shot at it?

 

[spatts]

I don't get it.

Not sure what the motivation is to combine.

What's your main goal?

 

[louden_swain]

Why not alternate between the two programs? I am sure Louis Simmons would be pissed if he saw that someone tried to modify the WSB program.

 

[Debaser]

They're so radically different, I would pick either one or the other. Note that the DC program does offer great strength increases as well as size. Westside is geared towards powerlifting, it just depends on what you're shooting for.

 

[spatts]

DC and WSB have many similarities. Just a few key differences, and both yield STRENGTH AND SIZE.

Louie probably wouldn't be pissed because WSB is fluid...it's all about what works. They are ALWAYS trying new things and improving. They're innovative. I don't think he got this far by being close minded.

In any case...I'd just pick something. Train intensely, eat well.

 

[nanotitan]

spatts

are you saying you would choose one or the other?

Isn't the conjugate method of training based on incorporating several training methods into one routine?

Louie incorporated strength speed, speed strength, work capacity and hypertrophy training into the same routine.
He has stated clearly that one must get big to lift big (as everyone has noticed I guess).

He has through the years continually worked at finding a better dynamic method of training, manipulating percentages and adding bands and chains, so I would bet that if he found better hypertrophy training methods, as DC training suggests to be, he would incorporate them into his program. The results would be that much greater. I believe the synergy within the WSB program is where its effectiveness lies.

 

[endpoint]

He has through the years continually worked at finding a better dynamic method of training, manipulating percentages and adding bands and chains, so I would bet that if he found better hypertrophy training methods, as DC training suggests to be, he would incorporate them into his program. The results would be that much greater. I believe the synergy within the WSB program is where its effectiveness lies.

powerlifting = moving the most weight.....at the lowest body weight.

hyperthrophy is kept to a bare minimum.......but still those guys are HUGE. a side effect of hoisting huge weights.

if you wanna get bigger eat more everything espc protein. you can gain a lot.

the muscle soreness and recoverytimes will effect you ME work

 

[nanotitan]

well, you are absolutely right ... at a certain point.

For most seekers of real power and strength, those continually moving up the ranks in search of bigger lifts, making weight is not an issue.

WSB training does incorporate quite a bit of hypertrophy training. Don't take my word for it, check out spatts' "What is Westside Training a.k.a. WSB?" thread and take a look at the basic routine.
It includes plenty of 8-15 rep sets aka hypertrophy sets in typical bodybuilding regimens. Not to mention things like the 100-rep miniband pushdowns for triceps that some advanced WSBers perform as extra workouts.

But your point that,

'the muscle soreness and recoverytimes will effect you ME work'

is exactly the point I wish to address.

Improved methods of hypertrophy training would reduce this effect hence increasing your chances of achieving a new PR on ME day.

 

[ThePolishHammer]

Yeah ive thought about that too actually. AFter reading some more on westside. and learning that the assitance and supplimentry sets werent supposed to go to failiure. because 4-8 sets of a muscle in an isolation movement twice a week, plus the dynamic and max effort training was too much to recover from. even with AR. WSB trainers go to failiure of form, not total muscle failiure. About 2 reps from total muscle failiure, according to an article by dave tate. Because it allows for recovery that fits into the WSB schedule.
but you look at the sets in DC training. Which have been proven to yeild incredible gains in muscle mass for alot of people, while training as frequently as you would in WSB. You could probably use DC style sets. for your assitance and supplementry work in WSB. Still have time to recover and yeild good gains in hypertrophy.
I wonder if it would work

 

[Baoh]

DC and WSB have many similarities

Yeah. They both use barbells.

 

[spatts]

He has through the years continually worked at finding a better dynamic method of training, manipulating percentages and adding bands and chains, so I would bet that if he found better hypertrophy training methods, as DC training suggests to be, he would incorporate them into his program.

Isn't that what *I* said?

There are so many topics here, and I will try to give you my personal opinion based on MY experience...but that's all it is.

Perhaps I should say that WSB and DC have many similarities the way *I* do it. When I read DC's posts, I am constantly thinking to myself, "Yeah! That's what I've always done!" or "That's exactly the way I do it." Of course eccentrics rip your muscles up...why do you think my name and pics are all over the Active Recovery thread? I do AR to flood blood and oxygen into the muscles, while also avoiding eccentric movement to promote healing. I do this to speed-up/ensure recovery which leads to growth. I too hit the eccentrics hard on accessory work, and because I do, I don't have to do AS MUCH work...I just do less of it harder (INTENSITY).

The 9 week program in that thread is NOT what we do. That is an intro for someone who doesn't train. Regular WSB work does not have much volume...and I'd venture to say less than DC at times, but that probably depends on the person.

As far as size vs strength, they've gone hand in hand for me. I gained 20 pounds of LBM in my first year of PLing...that's more than I gained in the previous year, and that previous year involved a test cycle! I don't see picking between DC and WSB for size concerns, because doing either correctly will yield results in size.

I think the difference here is utility. As someone else said, powerlifting is about getting a weight from point A to B in the shortest ROM possible. It's about doing 1 great thing, 1 time, in 1 plane.

I think you can do either, both, a hybrid....I'm saying you can do one or the other OR both, and still get results. I do like that DC is more well rounded with respect to diet. Any of the guys I train with will attest that I'm the only one in the group that eats "like a body builder." I'm also probably the leanest. Nutrition and training are of equal value in my world. I'm trying to run a machine here, and I won't use anything but the finest fuels to run it. I have, for DECADES, eaten the way DC suggests. As I said in another thread, people never could understand how I was able to cut to 10% bodyfat on 2000 calories a day. Well, when 1500 of that is protein and you're training like a mad dog, it CAN be done.

I think if you took the WSB concept of 1-3 RM compound work followed by hypertrophy work (which is exactly what I do), you could do that work in "DC fashion," meaning controlled negs, etc...and make a hybrid that's quite functional.

If you decide to do that, I'd love for you to keep me/us updated on your training. I'd be very interested in seeing if you get the same results I do, or that I'd expect you to.

 

[collegiateLifter]

note dc only 3 times a week... the original outline is 4 times a week.... gonna have to cut back on something

 

[spatts]

Actually, without the speed work, WSB is only 2 days.

 

[casualbb]

Well...DC is about using strength gains as a tool to trigger size gains. WSB is all about increasing 1RM at a given weight. That IS a major distinction. I think you should find a solid hypertrophy routine and use that until you're at your optimal size and body composition. Then switch to WSB or some other strength program to cause your nervous system to "learn" how to most efficiently recruit the new muscle.

-casualbb

 

[spatts]

Whether I eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for the flavor, or because I like the color, I still get the same amount of carbs.

 

[endpoint]

WSB training does incorporate quite a bit of hypertrophy training. Don't take my word for it, check out spatts' "What is Westside Training a.k.a. WSB?" thread and take a look at the basic routine.
It includes plenty of 8-15 rep sets aka hypertrophy sets in typical bodybuilding regimens. Not to mention things like the 100-rep miniband pushdowns for triceps that some advanced WSBers perform as extra workouts.

For starters......i dont have to read any thread.....I TRAIN THIS WAY EVERY DAY.....i think i have a fair idea of the methods.....but you have missed the point.

nothing is taken to failure (execpt the 100% 1RM maximal effort day) all sets are stopped one-two reps short.

the 100 rep band work is done so light that its only function is restoration. You use the bands to bring blood into the muscle.....thats it. No hypertrophy.

The Repetition Method (taken from dave tate)

The repetition method, otherwise known as the bodybuilding method, is the best method for the development of muscle hypertrophy (growth). This is the method in which all supplemental and accessory exercises are trained. This method is defined as "lifting a non-maximal load to failure." It's during the fatigued state when the muscles develop maximal force. According to this method, it's only during the final lifts that, because of fatigue, the maximal number of motor units are recruited. This system of training has a great influence on the development of muscle mass which is why it's become so popular among the bodybuilding population.

The fact that the final lifts are performed in a fatigued state makes this method less effective compared to the others when it comes to maximal strength development. This is one of the reasons why powerlifters are much stronger than bodybuilders. Another disadvantage of this method is that each set is carried to failure. This makes it very difficult to increase your volume and work capacity over time because of the amount of restoration needed. Training to failure is very hard on your ability to recover and in my opinion should only be used sparingly. When you extend a set to failure many times, the last few reps are performed with bad technique and this, of course, can lead to injuries.

Westside has modified this principle to what I refer to as the modified repetition method. With the modified version all sets should be stopped with the breakdown of technique and there should always be a rep or two left in you. Remember this principle is applied to all supplemental and accessory movements. These movements are designed to be exactly what they are: supplemental and accessory. The main goals of these movements are to complement the overall training program, not take away. By training to failure on every set you'd be taking away from the general purpose of the movements, which is to increase work capacity.

The parameters of this method are varied and depend upon the individual. Some athletes develop muscle mass with high reps and other with low reps. It would be crazy to assume one specific rep range works for everybody. What we've found to be best with supplemental and accessory work are sets in the range of 5 to 8 with repetitions between 6 and 15. This is a rather large range, but as I mentioned before, everybody is different. If you've been training for some time, I bet you have a better idea of what works for you than I could ever prescribe.

The load or weight to be used should fall in the 60 to 80% range and you should always leave a rep or two at the end of each set. Try to switch the exercise after every one to five workouts in which it's used. If you decide not to switch the exercise then switch the way it's trained. Try to add an extra set for a few weeks. Try to work it up for four weeks then deload it for four weeks. The point is to change it up as much as possible.

 

[endpoint]

IF IT AINT BROKE.......WHY FIX IT?

 

[skaman607]

Why not alternate between the two programs? I am sure Louis Simmons would be pissed if he saw that someone tried to modify the WSB program.

It's Louie, dammit.

 

[spatts]

Louie is constantly modifying...what are you talking about?

liftbig, DBC, what's your take on this?

 

[jeremys]

hmm

 

[spatts]

Care to elaborate there, Jeremys?

 

[jeremys]

lol. well i was thinking..at the moment, all i really care to compete in is bench meets. it's also the only kind of meets around here that isn't high school/usapl (no full power meets anyway)

maybe mix some bench work in with DC?

 

[louden_swain]

It's Louie, dammit.

Whats your problem. . .what difference does this make?

 

[nanotitan]

God I like this board! You guys are all making perfect sense, even though we may not all agree in every aspect, which is fine.

A couple of points:

casualbb-

Well...DC is about using strength gains as a tool to trigger size gains. WSB is all about increasing 1RM at a given weight. That IS a major distinction.

I find that the strength gains from ME work translate into a more rapid progression of your rep weights for hypertrophy sets. So I believe that, although that is not the objective, strength gains are also a tool for size gains in WSB (and viceversa). You are right though in that there is a major distinction but that is one of objectives more than one of results (hypertrophywise).

I think you should find a solid hypertrophy routine and use that until you're at your optimal size and body composition. Then switch to WSB or some other strength program to cause your nervous system to "learn" how to most efficiently recruit the new muscle.

Alternating routines seems to be the most logic option (and probably easiest), but my concern is in effectiveness. I'm pretty sure that a person that alternates between the two would benefit greatly but this reminds me of something [I think] Louie wrote about how the different special strengths all regress at different rates when time is taken off training and that could lead to injury when training is resumed as one would tend to overestimate (and underestimate) one's strengths. If I were to switch to hypertrophy-only training for a while I would probably lose elements of speed strength, maximal strength, explosive strength and accelerating strength, all at different rates which might lead to injury if not extra careful. So I would then have to take maybe the first two weeks of my WSB slowly so as to balance things out again and that time away from maximally effective training could mean 30-40lbs off my total come meet time (at least for me).
Could anyone confirm the varying loss of special strengths and if Louie did write about it?

endpoint-

Sorry, I didn't mean the 'check the thread' remark as an insult. I respect all of you guys' efforts, knowledge and experience. I have only been training WSB (and PLifting, for that matter) for less than 2 years now. Its just that I don't feel comfortable saying things for which I have no evidence.
You do have a point, the 100 rep sets appear to be more for restoration than growth per se, but AR, as spatts mentioned, is for ensuring that growth does take place in time for your next workout.
Also, I'm glad you brought up the failure issue. I personally don't go to failure regularly either. I had read that article from Dave a while back so I incorporated those theories into my training and got excellent results. But early this year I came upon an article by the same name in Dave's website but this one was 'as told to Powerlifting USA by Louie Simmons'. Interestingly at the top of the article there is the following quote:

….”Many don’t realize it, but we also use the repetition method to failure, never in the classical lifts, but rather with special exercises with dumbbells, belt squats, the Reverse Hyper and so forth. I prefer to do repetitions for time, not bothering to count reps, in a slow tempo.” LOUIE SIMMONS

You might want to check that out and tell me what you think. Personally, I still don't incorporate failure sets regularly into my routine but might give them a whirl soon and see what happens.

spatts-

PB&J?

Post already too long & already too late for class so, 'til later.

 

[endpoint]

nanotitan: haha yeah i did kind of get offended...but im over it now! haha
thanks for noticing.

Every six weeks i will go till failure on DB bench for about 15-20 reps. I do restoration till failure. ANd some exercises that wont directly affect my next workout. usually things like biceps, VMO, forearms.

 

[casualbb]

That's a good point, nano, about loss of specific strength...

I was just thinking that, given the sheer quantity of muscle mass is the foundation for strength, one would want as much of that as possible. I do believe though that one shouldn't adopt a strength training program solely for hypertrophy; a good hypertrophy program will do a lot better at it.

So what you COULD do if you don't want specific strength less, is have like a cycle of a 6-week hypertrophy phase leading into a WSB strength phase of another 4-6 weeks or so, to maintain specific strength while increasing muscle mass. I believe WSB already does this, but I'd turn to a different hypertrophy program because I don't think theirs is relatively effective.

-casualbb