cycling carbs

[wannabeBB]

I really appreciate all the help everyone gave me on my thread below.
I am still thinking whether I will go the route of carb cycling. I'm not doubting that it works. I just dont understand the concept of it. Could someone explain why this works?
I guess because I used to eat a high carb diet (long distance runner) that it's hard to understand.
I am trying to decide whether to go with Labrada's diet or this carb cycling thing. His diet is 60% carbs and 7% fat. If carbs are bad, then how do so many people get cut on his diet?
Again,I'm not doubting any info people here have given me, I just want it understand it more.

 

[Arioch]

His diet is 60% carbs and 7% fat

Eh? Holy hormone shutdown, Batman!!!

Is this a pre-contest diet, by chance?

I am sure Spatts will be along any minute to explain her carb rotation.

 

[Arioch]

On your high carb days, when you say you consume only fibrous carbs after you train, does that include post workout?

 

[wannabeBB]

Yeah, the diet I spoke of is a precontest diet. (although I'm not precontest, I'm just looking to drop bodyfat)

I weight train late in the day- Right before my 6th meal. At what point in the day should I switch to fibrous carbs?

 

[Arioch]

Thanks,

I probably would have known that if I had ever actually read it.

<blush>

 

[jenny27]

what if you weight train early in the morning? Right now, I usually will train tuesday and thursday mornings-days i'm not able to train in the afternoon (due to my work schedule and knowing that i'd be too tired to train afterwards). I'll usually have a whey shake and a table spoon of flax oil about an hour before i head to the gym. When i come home i normally take creatine and a whey shake then eat some oatmeal for my breakfast. i train 4 days a week and cardio usually 3 first thing in the morning. would it be necessary for me to cycle my carbs high on the days that i train in the morning? i'm trying to cut right now and the carbs at night are killing me.

 

[Punschkrapfen]

~25% are adopted to carbs and can absorb and use them appropiately. The other 75% dont do well on high carb diets, their insulin output spikes too high after ingesting carbs and they get converted into triglycerides and stored as fat before they can be burnt as fuel.
this explains why some thrive on 60% carbs, while others would just get fat and tired from that much.

 

[makedah]

~25% are adopted to carbs and can absorb and use them appropiately. The other 75% dont do well on high carb diets, their insulin output spikes too high after ingesting carbs and they get converted into triglycerides and stored as fat before they can be burnt as fuel.
this explains why some thrive on 60% carbs, while others would just get fat and tired from that much.

Can I get some stats or articles on this? I read about 'carb sensitivity' and the like all the time, but I've never found a scientific article on it.

 

[Punschkrapfen]

Can I get some stats or articles on this? I read about 'carb sensitivity' and the like all the time, but I've never found a scientific article on it.

i got this information only recently off this german website: http://www.evos.de/fettab/feerketo.htm.
A german doctor, Wolfgang Lutz, M.D., has written a book titled "living without bread - the scientific foundation to low-carb dieting". I will get a copy of this and check where he has that from.
Also on this page there is a reference to another diet book which seems to be a translation of DiPasquale's book.

 

[wilson6]

You'll never find a ref that concludes that carbs make you fat, because they don't. It takes massive, chronic carb overfeedings to get significant conversion to fat. However, only small amounts of carbs (particularly high GI carbs) will shut down fat oxidation via a small rise in insulin. Those that consume a lot of carbs, burn primarily carbs. If you're running 60 - 70 mi per week, then you can eat all the carbs you want, if you're not, then you can't.

Carbs keep you fat by preventing fat oxidation and keep the enzymes that cause fat storage turned on so even small amounts of fat (that 1 tablespoon of flax) will get stored as fat and over time this adds up.

W6

 

[makedah]

wilson6 -- It's clear to me that carbohydrates are the body's preferred fuel (which, it seems, is why the body is inclined to store fat when carbs are readily available). It's also clear to me that people who are less active would need fewer carb grams. But...

Don't most humans eat a high-carbohydrate diet*? So why isn't every single human being (or at least the 75% mentioned in the post above) fat? Is it a matter of energy output (like the long-distance runners), the type of carbohydrates eaten (complex vs. simple, whole vs. refined, etc.) or percentages of other macronutrients in their diets? I'm sure the answer is "all of the above," but can you elaborate a little for me?


Thanks!


*I know that endurance athletes eat 60-70% carb and Ornish folks eat 80% carb. But what I'm calling a "high-carbohydrate diet" would be 50+% calories from carbs.

 

[CrystalChick]

Hey Spatts,

If you just have your carbs in the AM do you find yourself restless late at night hungry or craving carbs other than fibrous?

I have my morning oats, and then fibrous and protein the rest of the day. Why? Because I don't need to put gas in my car if I'm not going to drive it.

Thanks CC

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Ok, question? If you're eating below maintenance, how is your body storing carbs as fat? Or storing fat as fat for that matter?

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Ok, cool so first problem solved. Now, if one has really stubborn fat deposits, and I mean stubborn. How do they get rid of them? Assuming they already have a sh*tload of lean mass.

I love that I can count on spatts for such a quick reply. Thanks.

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Spatts - you are much leaner than the person I am thinking of, at least at in your current shots.

Will dropping carbs completely, or keeping low carbs, but avoiding ketosis start to metabolize fat that just refuses, and I mean refuses to disappear? Like around the biceps and triceps and on the stomach. Is there ever a point where someone would have to get something lipo'd off?

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Ok, I'm going to suggest this diet or some kind of carb cycling diet.

Still though, have you ever heard of fat that for all intensive purposes the body has just "forgotten" about. Do you know if this is a possibility?

BTW - This is after seeing some, but very little chane in BF after 1 yr of hard training, total explosion in strength, and a relatively good diet. No overeating whatsoever.

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Ok, cool thanks for the feedback.

 

[wannabeBB]

Hey Spatts, you said you cycle your carbs but leave the fat and protein alone. So if one day you have los carbs, would you not bring up the amount of fat to compensate? Or would you just have lower calories that day?
I hope what I asked made sense.

 

[wilson6]

The problem in our society is high fat + high carbs and inactivity.

Level of training is also an issue. Women that are highly trained (aerobic) have the same substrate utilization patterns as men and also glycogen deplete/load to a similar extent. There are a number of recent papers on these topics.

Having said all of that, genetics plays a significant role in metabolism. My guess is that the myostatin and lepin gene and their promoters are key regulators in what happens to what you eat (i.e., does it go to muscle, fat or simply produce heat).

You have to take all the experiences of people on this board and come up with a solution that works for you.

First you have to separate those that take androgens from those that do not. Androgens regulate both myostatin and lepin that in turn regulate body fat and muscle mass and there's much we don't know about that interaction.

W6

 

[SteelWeaver]

You'll never find a ref that concludes that carbs make you fat, because they don't. It takes massive, chronic carb overfeedings to get significant conversion to fat. However, only small amounts of carbs (particularly high GI carbs) will shut down fat oxidation via a small rise in insulin. Those that consume a lot of carbs, burn primarily carbs. If you're running 60 - 70 mi per week, then you can eat all the carbs you want, if you're not, then you can't.

Carbs keep you fat by preventing fat oxidation and keep the enzymes that cause fat storage turned on so even small amounts of fat (that 1 tablespoon of flax) will get stored as fat and over time this adds up.

W6

If this is the case then technically the best way to either lose fat and/or gain muscle would be to eat how ever many carbs, but keep fat as low as possible. I thought low fat diets had been discredited, though?

 

[wilson6]

"If this is the case then technically the best way to either lose fat and/or gain muscle would be to eat how ever many carbs, but keep fat as low as possible. I thought low fat diets had been discredited, though?"

Who discredited low fat diets?

Prudent consumption of carbs, not how ever many.....

I forget what culture has a ritual where the guys overconsume massive amounts of only carbohydrate over a fairly short period of time and gain substantial amounts of fat, but the excess is quite large. I have to find the study that looked at this. So yes, gross excess intake of carbs only will increase body fat, but smaller amounts simply prevent fat oxidation and or fat storage, but not de novo synthesis of large amounts of triglycerides.

I've never supported high fat, low carb diets for athletes. They just make no sense from a performance perspective.

I think what we've been discussing on this board (rotating carb diets) seem to be working the best for most of us trying to get lean, maintain muscle and be able to continue to lift heavy. While it hasn't been looked at in the literature, and probably never will, I think that is the best way to go at this time.

W6

 

[makedah]

Thanks, w6 and spatterson, this is good stuff. It's the most even-handed discussion of high-carb and low-carb diets I've seen so far. It can be such a contentious issue...

 

[SteelWeaver]

Who discredited low fat diets?

Prudent consumption of carbs, not how ever many.....


W6

Mmm. No-one official.

But the talk around here is always about how the FDA's (?) food pyramid is up to shit and there are too many carbs in it. And if you go over to the diet board, and browse around BB internet sites, you'll find a large band of keto and low-carb troopers willing to bet their bottom dollar that theirs is the way to go, and that they have tons of energy on keto .... they're convinced that mod-high carb diets (which would naturally be low fat if you're getting enough protein), are completely unnatural, and will make you FAT FAT FAT.

I meant how ever many carbs your activity level, macro ratios and caloric requirements dictate, not just how ever many - sorry, I wasn't clear.

Can we talk about what sort of ratios of carbs and fat are more, or less likely to result in fat storage? For cutting and gaining. I guess there aren't there any studies on this?

"gross excess intake of carbs only will increase body fat, but smaller amounts simply prevent fat oxidation and or fat storage, but not de novo synthesis of large amounts of triglycerides."

Surely this mostly depends on how many excess calories the gross excess intake works out to? If you ate gross excess of protein body fat would increase, too.

Maybe we need to experiment on this board with different ratios. Have some women do straight ratios, some do limited carb cycling, and some do extreme carb cycling. Anyone up for that?

 

[wilson6]

SPAT already tried the extreme carb cycling and we know what happens

I trained a client a couple of years ago that lived on a keto diet. About 30 grams of day of carbs, everyday. While he survived my intense leg workouts, it took him much longer to recover and get his strength back in his legs and he couldn't lift as intensely as the other normally feed clients.

He was morbidly obese and that was why he was on the keto diet. He lost 130 lbs on the diet that consisted of mostly higher fat and high protein foods. As he would say, I had a sirloin and eggs for the main course and filet for dessert.

It took him many months to adapt to this diet.

Based on human physiology, we need carbs and cannot perform high intensity exercise without glucose and glycogen, and we cannot make carbs from fat. Insulin is also necessary for the uptake of amino acids into the cell and chronically low insulin levels will only limit protein synthesis.

BTW, as soon as this client added carbs back in on a limited basis, he started gaining fat at an exponential rate. That makes me wonder what will happen to some of the keto freaks when they finally add some carbs back in.

We're beginning to see long-term gene regulatory changes that occur as a function of extremes in diet and even brief hormone exposure. I'd be careful not to turn on some genes with extreme measures that may come back to haunt you later. Case in point is the central fat regain in rehabbing anorectics or the long-term down regulation of metabolic rate following chronic dietary restriction.

W6

 

[SteelWeaver]

We're beginning to see long-term gene regulatory changes that occur as a function of extremes in diet and even brief hormone exposure. I'd be careful not to turn on some genes with extreme measures that may come back to haunt you later. Case in point is the CENTRAL FAT REGAIN in rehabbing anorectics or the long-term down regulation of metabolic rate following chronic dietary restriction.

W6

Uh oh This sounds bad.

We just finished a discussion on fat distribution patterns, and a few of us, myself included, appear to have more male-type fat distribution. The reason I asked the original question, if fat comes back in the same places, is that I seem to be gaining even more fat than I used to have in my abdominal area, but my legs and arms are staying fairly lean. I was wondering if it's an optical illusion. Have you got any more info on what you said?

One can "turn on" genes?

What ratios would you stick within, then, if extreme changes are a no-no? Also, what about high carb refeeds and leptin levels - refeeds are extreme by definition, and yet they work wonders.

 

[wilson6]

This brings up an interesting point. Considering what happens with anorectics and refeeding, I wonder, depending on the extremes and length of the precontest diet, if a similar phenomenon could occur in female bodybuilders, particularly natural ones? And having said that, I wonder if continuing on a course of oxandrolone if that was what the competitor was taking for contest prep, would reduce abdominal fat re-deposition and/or in some prevent the gluteal-femoral regain fat regain?

It also makes me wonder if a low dose course of oxandrolone would be helpful for recovering anorectics for a number of reasons?

Food for thought so to speak.

W6

 

[SteelWeaver]

But don't AAS tend to redistribute fat regain in woman to a more male type pattern anyway? Wouldn't that make it worse for recovering anorexics?

 

[hardasnails73]

Ok let me present another possible solutioin to the puzzle. If there are cycling their carbs. Why not suggest a refeed meal like right before they goto bed on a monday and thursday night. say about 1 cup of oatmeal dry. 6 oz yam, 1 cup veggies, 1 tabls spoon flax seed. this will jumpstart metabolisms and replenish the glycogen they may gave depleted from the previous days. And may be add in some BCAAS before during and after work out to prevent loss of lean tissue while in a semi catabolic state? Just a suggestion. I did this for my final 6 weeks of contest and it worked perfect. my carbs where still around 50-75 complex but i also had another 50-70 fiberous as well. I think alot of it is calorie based and other factors such as genetic, and life style and how hard they actually train and say what they really do !!

 

[SteelWeaver]

It depends how you're cycling. My understanding of carb cycling is that, although the carb numbers change, you're still below maintenance, even on the higher carb days.

A proper refeed uses carbs (a large chunk of them high GI) to take cals 20-50% ABOVE maintenance for 12 - 48 hours. As far as I understand Par Deus' articles, and the discussions on the diet board, leptin levels won't increase if you don't go above maintenance levels.

Of course if your carb cycling system takes you above maintenance every few days, then everything's fine.

 

[SteelWeaver]

No, AMR. Check out these threads:

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=112853&highlight=AMR

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=138316&highlight=AMR

And check out the articles on leptin at Par Deus' site (the URL is in that first thread, but it's a long thread:

avantlabs.com

I used refeeds during most of my comp-prep, and I think they helped me maintain energy, sanity and muscle. I didn't do them carefully enough, though, in hindsight. Next time I intend to actually do the numbers

 

[hardasnails73]

Spats i'm in total agree ment with you about carb cycle. I'm just coming off of a contest (where I won the over all at the NPC delaware and placed 15 th in NPC junior naitonals as light heavy weight, and won the light heavy weights at NPC lehigh Valley ans should have won overall but thats another story) Any way i'm still under 5% and will remain there for a while with care full monitoring od caloric intake and watching the mirror and come up slowly cuurently on traininng days my carbs are 250-260 at 450 gram protein and about 80-100 grams of fats. On non work out days all I do is HIT cardio 20-30 minutes at night time and knock out the post work out meal of 440 caloires so it brings my caloirc in take down some plus extra cardio which from doing it 3 times a week interval sprinting and biking has made maor impact on my thickness and seperation. Be fore you start spatting out about drugs and what not. I have not been on any drugs for 3 months and all my test were even cut 4 weeks prior to that even. I'm a firm believeer in BCAAS to help preserve lean body mass before during and after hard training , as well as glutemine which helps with recovery. So carb rotation does work it just depends on so many factors to get an actually account of how many caloires are actually necessary. in gaining I go between 17-18 caloires times lean boy mass and cutting I notice i start to tighten up around 2700 with 5 days cardio. in the next year through manipulation of diet and leanring my body I hope to pack on a good 15 solid lbs and repeat my conditioning this year. Also realized that Post work out is for muscle recovery not from recovering from glycogen depletion from cardio !! So word to the wise seperate cardio and weight training by 8-12 hours you will thank your self (only if time permits )

take care
hardasnails

 

[SteelWeaver]

Do your cals bounce over and under maintenance? Or are you staying under all the time? (You said earlier you have cheat meals, though, didn't you - guess it follows a similar metabolic principle) I found by the 2nd-4th day or so after a refeed my legs would start turning to wood, then lead, then it would hit my whole body, til I could barely drag myself out of my chair at work. But within 2 hours of starting my refeed I'd be able to walk quickly and normally to the station, then I'd sleep very well that night, and get the most enormous pump at the next day's workout.

Did you actually get the glucose sensitivity test done? Mm, can't remember what MS said about that on the other thread, but I thrive on carbs.