cutting estro fat

[go_hard_80]

hey guys,

i hold alot of estrogenic fat on my chest and love handles and i want it gone, currently 12%bf

if im gonna be going

wks 1-4 20mg winny
wks 1-4 100mg test prop eod
wks 1-4 am cardio on ECA with Yohimburn

should i run nolvadex at 40mgs or 60 mgs for the month of cutting?

thnx

 

[hayesjones]

estrogenic fat around the chest caused by steroids is there to stay unless you have it lipo'd out.

 

[OAKBOX]

go_hard and i have the same problem... bump for an answer.

 

[Diabolical]

estrogenic fat around the chest caused by steroids is there to stay unless you have it lipo'd out.

I beg to differ, if you drop your BF% then you will drop your estro fat.Just not as fast as the other fat.

Trust me, I had some estro fat around the chest, and now I am at 8% BF and you can hardly even notice now.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

I beg to differ, if you drop your BF% then you will drop your estro fat.Just not as fast as the other fat.

Trust me, I had some estro fat around the chest, and now I am at 8% BF and you can hardly even notice now.

this is more true for some than others.. and is based on a # of factors..

in many cases estro fat (aka A2 rich tissue) is considerable dense and disproportionate.. in those cases losses which you found are not even a possibility without assistance (a2 blocking and perhaps E elimination or blocking-- pref elimination)

 

[macrophage69alpha]

hey guys,

i hold alot of estrogenic fat on my chest and love handles and i want it gone, currently 12%bf

if im gonna be going

wks 1-4 20mg winny
wks 1-4 100mg test prop eod
wks 1-4 am cardio on ECA with Yohimburn

should i run nolvadex at 40mgs or 60 mgs for the month of cutting?

thnx

30mg win

prop dosage is fine

get yohimburn DF (use pure ephedrine and caffiene)

no nolva-- use letro or exemstane

 

[PRAETORIAN]

Estro

30mg win

prop dosage is fine

get yohimburn DF (use pure ephedrine and caffiene)

no nolva-- use letro or exemstane

as per macrophage69alpha...good idea..but why not go one step further...

you are battling estro fat...why would you take an aromatizing compound like prop..this is defeating the purpose...then try to eliminate aromatization with an anti e..?? no sense...replace the prop with tren 100mg eod, run the winny 50 mg ed...run an eca stack combined with yohimburn and usnic acid...see Dave palumbos site for usnic...also your diet is crucial as well!

 

[DeepZenPill]

Re: Re: cutting estro fat

no nolva-- use letro or exemstane

I understand why the aromatase inhibitor is necessary, but why not use nolva as well? If you're gonna use an anti-aromatase which will alter the lipid profile, wouldn't the nolva help as it promotes a better lipid profile? Also wouldn't the nolva help keep estrogen from binding to receptors in the chest where many guys store estrogenic fat?

 

[bigrand]

Usnic acid sucks, its too dangerous. If you want to be uncouppled, use DNP.
Are there any good Beta3 receptor agonists? Im using like 5 NYC a day now (beta 2), but i need to pick up the pace a little and our bud with 40mcg clen is no longer, so im shitcanned till i find a suitable replacement. I might be able to get an anti E from the doc, i think he thinks i have gyno, but if not, ill run 40-60mg nolva ED.
Dont get me wrong (Mac), i like the NYC, it works, but im a slow burner and i need to hasten things up a bit.......so i can do another cycle!

 

[go_hard_80]

i cant afford and of the dex's.........

Im gonna be cutting chest fat on nolva, would i be god to go up to 60mg nolva ed?

 

[georgie24]

i cant afford ati-e's either, what the f**k are we gonna do? nolva's or provirons?

 

[dork]

liquidex is pretty cheap these days guys. I paid like 200 something for 28 armidex tabs a few years back when prices where high. Now you can get 30ml of liquidex for like 80 bucks. (Which is a HUGE price differance)

 

[georgie24]

gotta wait till next payday i guess

 

[NJbigtime]

BUMP

What are the final thoughts here? Nova alone or Armidex and Nova or just Armidex.

 

[Dantes]

re: not being able to afford anti-e's. Guys come on, this is your body you're tinkering with here, if you can't afford to do it right, wait until you can. But you knew that already.

 

[Gymatic]

I would go with 8-10 weeks myself. And I would substitute Test susp instead of test Prop. Just my opinion.

 

[OAKBOX]

go_hard will agree Both estro fat and insulin fat suck balls, and I can't get rid of it naturally! I really like the sound of this combo though:

50mg Winny EOD
100mg Finna EOD

Then add what for blocking, L-dex or nolva?
What to add for accelerated fat burning? clen, dnp, t3, nyc, eca, yohimburn?
So many choices- need input!

 

[Fukkenshredded]

You have the right idea with fina/winny.
75/50 ED
That's really all the chemistry you need if you hit HI cardio and a clean diet. I recommend sprints and high rep squats every other day.

Fat is fat, and it can all be burned.

 

[georgie24]

You have the right idea with fina/winny.
75/50 ED
That's really all the chemistry you need if you hit HI cardio and a clean diet. I recommend sprints and high rep squats every other day.

Fat is fat, and it can all be burned.

excuse me if i seem to be bothersom , but do i do the high-rep squats and the sprints on the same day?

 

[OAKBOX]

Excuse me too... all fat is NOT created equal... and i can't do squats and run in the same day...

 

[DeepZenPill]

go_hard will agree Both estro fat and insulin fat suck balls, and I can't get rid of it naturally! I really like the sound of this combo though:

50mg Winny EOD
100mg Finna EOD

Then add what for blocking, L-dex or nolva?
What to add for accelerated fat burning? clen, dnp, t3, nyc, eca, yohimburn?
So many choices- need input!

You won't need anti-e's during this cycle because your estrogen will be very low once you're shutdown. Neither of these compounds aromatize into estrogen, and you won't have your natural test to convert to estrogen either.

I would suggest NYC or clen. Most guys prefer nyc, but I can't do it for more than a few days without feeling like crap. On the other hand I love clen. I wouldn't suggest t3 unless you really put in the research behind it and learn about the risks.

 

[PRAETORIAN]

RE: Bigrand

Usnic acid sucks, its too dangerous. If you want to be uncouppled, use DNP.

When was the last time you walked into GNC and bought a bottle of DNP? Give me a break usnic acid is too dangerous use DNP..give your head a shake and do some research for a chamge please!!

 

[Fukkenshredded]

You can do whatever you put your mind to. Who says you can't sprint and squat on the same day? Just dig a little deeper.

As far as fat being estrogenic vs. otherwise...well, from a clinical standpoint there is a difference between brown fat and white fat, and then more subtle differences between what promotes the storage.

But if the fire is hot enough, all wood burns. Bust your ass. Forget about analyzing the fat. Just fire up those sprints and squats, cut out the sugars, lift hard, shoot gear, and fix your fucking heads to stop talking about what can't be done and just go do what needs to be done.

 

[PRAETORIAN]

RE: Fukkenshredded!!

Great post bro...my sentiments exactly!
There are so many fat people out there just too busy to be thin!

Estro fat, white fat, brown fat..whatever...its fat...and it burns...bust your ass, diet hardcore, use non aromatizing compounds to maintain muscle tissue, and elevate youir metabolic rate, and you will get lean..all over..."get cooking or get out of the kitchen bro!"

Peace!

 

[macrophage69alpha]

while it is true that in a blazing inferno all fats burns (metaphorically speaking)

it is also true that altering certain metabolic inhibiting factors like the a2 adrenoceptor that the fat which is so afflicted (a2 rich) will burn at the same rate or faster as "normal" (high beta to alpha ratio) fat.

 

[chakarov]

you are battling estro fat...why would you take an aromatizing compound like prop..this is defeating the purpose...then try to eliminate aromatization with an anti e..?? no sense...replace the prop with tren 100mg eod, run the winny 50 mg ed...run an eca stack combined with yohimburn and usnic acid...see Dave palumbos site for usnic...also your diet is crucial as well!

Fasle. As long as the Test dose isn't too high, then Test Prop or any Test CAN help a man to burn fat. There have been NUMEROUS studies on men that were given an exogenous source oif Test and they all lost some fat. I believe that is was like 100mgs per week or a really low dose, but the point is Test CAN and WILL help you lose fat at a low dose. Aslo it has been proven that men with naturaly occuring high levels of Test have LESS bodyfat and MORE muscle mass than men with lower natural Test levels.

 

[OAKBOX]

while it is true that in a blazing inferno all fats burns (metaphorically speaking)

it is also true that altering certain metabolic inhibiting factors like the a2 adrenoceptor that the fat which is so afflicted (a2 rich) will burn at the same rate or faster as "normal" (high beta to alpha ratio) fat.

YEA!.... WHAT MACRO SIAD!

I Hate when a brother gets on the boards and talks like

"There are so many fat people out there just too busy to be thin!"

Not all fat burns at the same rate bro. I have a predisposition to hold on to fat around the chest, gut, and luv handles until I’m starving and the muscle is all burned up... I don't mean that I hold on to it for the first month of dieting. And I don't mean that it comes off after 2 or 3 months of diet and exercise. I mean that after 4 months of 1800cals per day and a 6 week Fina run, I still have a very sizable amount of gut and chest fat- probably a good 7 lbs. worth, while the rest of my body is looking awesome. The minute I go back to eating a normal 2800cal a day diet it all goes to my gut- I put every little bit back on. The funny thing is that, after i put on the fat, I have to eat really horrible and eat a lot after my body reaches is equilibrium weight in order to put on even more fat. So please don’t give me this fat crap...

My response to:
"You can do whatever you put your mind to. Who says you can't sprint and squat on the same day? Just dig a little deeper."

If you were digging deeper with your squats you would not be able to jog, much less do sprints on the same day.

 

[bigrand]

PRAETORIAN,

I have done LOTS of research. Ask all the gurus on the board whats more dangerous, UA or DNP, or YOU just do some research and find out for yourself. DNP IS safer, not to mention more effective. You cant just buy Usnic acid or sodium unisate in GNC either now can you......

 

[jboldman]

it is a myth that estro causes fat deposition. If your estro to test ratio gets out of whack, it will lead to female type bf distribution, aka thighs, hips, buttocks. As long as you are taking test, the estro levels will balance out unless you are taking huge amounts. Concentrate on diet and cardio, A yohimbe product as mentioned or oral yohimbine hcl(make you jittery) 20mins prioir to exercise on an empty stomach will be effective. 12% is a little high to actually start seeing definition, get your bf down.

jb

 

[PRAETORIAN]

RE: Oakbox

Oakbox what Macro said is true..however the question was not which type of fat burns fatser or at what rate...the question was what should i do to eliminate estro fat? If you would liketo use products that attack this type of fat predominantly go ahead...i never said not to...please read the post! Again, testosterone does not burn fat, either does winny , either does tren..however a high androgen base will create a fat burning environment ideally suited for eliminating a2 rich deposits...now an androgen either test or tren will raise blood levels however..tren will not raise estro levels nd there is no need for anti e's...as per jboldman concentrate on diet and cardio...yohimbine is great at assisting as well...1800 cal for 4 months..sheesh (not privy to your stats) seems a little low cal...i would suggest looking at your diet first..instead of resorting to what kind of drug will help...remember women diet as well and can get very low bf...and they have nat ocurring estro..so there is no reason you cant..

*****edited******
oh by the way..bigrand...usnic acid see abv url...to purchase.legally!

 

[macrophage69alpha]

UA is legal to be sold. Though it is sold almost exclusively through the internet and there are quite a number of adverse reactions and liver damage/failure.

UA MAY work (this is still debatable), but it is not safe. from a safety and efficacy standpoint DNP should be OTC well before Usnic or usnate. and you can by DNP legally as well.

just because no one has taken a look at UA or SU does not mean that its safe.. there are lots of herbs and lichens that can kill you.. which are sold OTC. here you have an extract of an herb that is probably fairly safe as used in its whole traditional form (which most of the research indicates), but through extraction the danger has increased considerably.. and what can only be deemed massive dosages the exact extent is unknown.

note usnea contains less than 2% usnic acid often less than 1%

 

[MrRTTB]

This is what worked for me:

Clen tapper up to start at 50mcg per day and tapper up to 160mcg and stay on for 14 days. During this time I increased cardio and lowered the time in the gym. I worked out in the gym EOD and I think that was very wise due to the fact the body will need more rest if you bump cardio.

On the OFF days from the gym:

I did one 50min walk before breakfast 5 times per week. I took half dose Clen with a stron g cup of coffee before this walk.

Before lunch I did one session for 20 minutes(very fast walk).

Before evening dinner I did one more session for 20 minutes(very fast walk).

On the gym days I took a walk for 50 minutes before breakfast.

I also used nolvadex at 20mg per day and in 4 weeks I lost almost all estrogen fat that had been stuck on my belly sionce childhood and also lower back. It went very fast and I might have lost some muscle, but muscle is easy for me to gain back, so it didn't matter that much.

When in the gym I worked on my lower back(good mornings) and lower abs every third day, and kept reps at 6-10, going heavy.

This worked for me

 

[OAKBOX]

Re: RE: Oakbox

Estro fat, white fat, brown fat..whatever...its fat...and it burns... the question was not which type of fat burns fatser or at what rate...the question was what should i do to eliminate estro fat?

Then we should change the name of this thread to, "how in the hell do I get my a2 adrenoceptor rich fat to burn stores as efficiently as high beta to alpha ratio fat." I mean "estro fat" is a generalized term used to describe the deposits of fat around certain areas like the breast, ass, and thighs. When in reality, the term "estro fat" refers to fat deposits located at a site with a high concentration of a2 adrenoceptors around those specific areas- which may or may not be triggered by estrogen alone within the system -but do appear as though they are caused by an increase or high level of estrogen due to the aforementioned location of said adrenoceptors...

1800 cal for 4 months..sheesh (not privy to your stats) seems a little low cal...i would suggest looking at your diet first..instead of resorting to what kind of drug will help...

29 YOA 6' 205lbs. 20% BF... and my diet, when I’m cutting, is tight...

remember women diet as well and can get very low bf...and they have nat ocurring estro..so there is no reason you cant..

Women diet, too? I did know that... Comon' man!
Women who:
a.) use drugs to lower estrogen or
b.) use drugs increase muscle mass/metabolism or
c.) have very little A2 adrenoceptors or block them or
d.) have excellent genetics or
e.) all of the above
can get very lean, but that does not help me... I'm not a women (no jokes please), i don't have little to no a2 adrenoceptor rich fat pockets, and I don't have excellent genetics. If I did, you and I would not be having this discussion, and I would probably be telling some poor soul [that held gut and chest fat] that they don't train hard enough or diet correctly, just like your doing to me... sheesh!

 

[OAKBOX]

Re: RE: Oakbox

Oakbox what Macro said is true..however the question was not which type of fat burns fatser or at what rate...the question was what should i do to eliminate estro fat?

BTW, if you are moderating the content on this thread, then you should make sure to tell Macro that he needs to post the pertinent information on the question at hand, as well...

 

[PRAETORIAN]

Oak

Bro...sometimes these threads can stray off topic due to eveyone trying to prove their own opinion...just trying to offer suggestions from knowledge i have gained from experience...many times people in the iron game get way too technical and dig too deep instead of just looking for the obvious! We can debate the topic of a2 fat..etc all day that doesnt help you very much! I myslef have battled estro fat for years...especially while dieting for many a contest and just in the last few years have i come across techniques that really do work...much to my delight i must say...i subscribed to the theory of a test base while dieting for over a decade and always had trouble getting down to low low bf %..3-4..and i am talking no gh...i spoke to a few ifbb pros who i consult with on a regular basis and they made a few suggestions which i tried...amazing results..i am very estro sensitive and any test even susp makes me retain plenty of h2o and prevents elimination of trouble fat area..u know what i mean...in the past few years i eliminated all tests precontest and within 4 weeks the results were astonishing to say the least(and no anti e's)...a typical precontest cycle..keep in mind i usually start 5'11 255-260(10%) depending how heavy i went in the off....tren 150 eod weeks 1-16, primo 300 mg/week 1-10, ad50 50 mg/ed 1-6, winny zambon 50mg/9-16, halo 20 mg/day 14-16...i dont use clen..i feel it isnt worth the $ for the results...i get better results from eca and t3...t3 runs weeks 8-16 25-100 mcg/day...diet consists of 1.25 g pro / lb bw, plus .5 g per lb bw fat, plus 50 g glucose post workout....every 7th day control refeed mainly 3 g/lb complex carb, plus .5 g/lb pro...these %'s are adjusted daily to keep calorie levels fluctuating...
In my trials with clients and pros as well..including females...this diet has worked wonders...the ergogens have helped to maintian muscle albeit sometimes those with gifted genetics have seen growth while calorie reduced..believe it or not...in my opinion thru all my years of training and dieting nutrition still remains top priority..the diet is the key..androgens help as well as ancillary drugs but they do not replace an incomplete diet...cardio is a must as well...a minimum 1 hr cardio/day intense ie stairclimber high level inc every 10 min...will not eat muscle tissue but will aid in fat loss dramatically...
I offer this info...use it if u like...i have transformed many a cliet into a top three minimum competitor onstage...as well as a few worldclass BB and powerliftters who have gone on to win their contests...sometimes the best advice is to keep it simple...
strict diet, tough cardio, non aromatizing androgens plus a dht derivative hardener(preferrably masteron...but goodluck..kudos if you can get..last of the mohicans if u know what i mean..winny will suffice) and an oral non aromatizing androgenm last few weeks have lead to astonishing results..give it a try you may be pleasantly surprised!
Peace bro..good luck!

 

[PRAETORIAN]

RE: macrophage69alpha

Macro, as it goes we may have to agree to disagree on the UA/DNP issue of safety. I really feel it is much too early to truly say which is safer at thie point...many a competitior has ended up in the emerg because of DNP and I am sure you could probably argue the same with UA. This is not to say that either is effective or without risk...as we all know...risk to benefit is always the question. I have experimented with both and thus i would offer my opinion as to which i think would be a wiser choice. In all honesty i do believe dramatic results can be achieved without theu se of either compounds...eca and t3 used responsibly combined with a strict diet and cardio can yield world class results. i think many people rely too heavily on fat loss aids and fail to give their diet the attention it truly deserves!

Peace
P

 

[DeepZenPill]

Re: RE: macrophage69alpha

Macro, as it goes we may have to agree to disagree on the UA/DNP issue of safety. I really feel it is much too early to truly say which is safer at thie point...many a competitior has ended up in the emerg because of DNP and I am sure you could probably argue the same with UA. This is not to say that either is effective or without risk...as we all know...risk to benefit is always the question. I have experimented with both and thus i would offer my opinion as to which i think would be a wiser choice. In all honesty i do believe dramatic results can be achieved without theu se of either compounds...eca and t3 used responsibly combined with a strict diet and cardio can yield world class results. i think many people rely too heavily on fat loss aids and fail to give their diet the attention it truly deserves!

Peace
P

Some of the stories of quick and hard liver failure resulting from UA use are hard to ignore. But you have to be weary of scare tactics that could be used as they are with ephedrine, AAS, etc. There are often complications to each of these cases, and I personally am not aware of any legitimate studies concerning the safety/effectiveness of UA. The accounts of UA related liver failure are enough to keep me away from UA use. It just hasn't been widely used enough for proper use and other neccessary supp. info to spread.

If you do a search on this board for DNP, you can find tons of info on proper supps to run with it and sane cycling recommendations so you can avoid the dangers of the drug. The same is not true for Usnic Acid though. People follow the directions and still suffer severe liver damage. The problem is people want to see big results, so they use high UA or SU doses. UA and SU require MUCH smaller doses to cause liver damage than DNP, so everyone who uses these high doses is at a much higher risk for liver damage.

Both of these drugs can potentially be deadly. But I have heard of very few people who hurt themselves using sane DNP doses. On the other hand I've seen way too many reports of people fucking themselves up with recommended "sane" UA doses.

 

[bigrand]

Isnt UA clastenogenic?.....

 

[PRAETORIAN]

DNP

HEALTH HAZARD INFORMATION (DNP)

Acute Health Effects
The following acute (short-term) health effects may occur immediately or shortly after exposure to 2,4-Dinitrophenol:


2,4-Dinitrophenol can irritate the skin and eyes.
Breathing 2,4-Dinitrophenol can irritate the nose and throat.
Exposure to 2,4-Dinitrophenol cause fatigue, thirst, sweating, headache and weakness. It may also cause anxiety and excitement.
Chronic Health Effects
The following chronic (long-term) health effects can occur at some time after exposure to 2,4-Dinitrophenol and can last for months or years:
Cancer Hazard


2,4-Dinitrophenol may cause mutations (genetic changes) in living cells. Whether or not it poses a cancer or reproductive hazard needs further study.
2,4-Dinitrophenol has not been tested for its ability to cause cancer in animals.
Reproductive Hazard

2,4-Dinitrophenol may damage the developing fetus.
2,4-Dinitrophenol has not been tested for its ability to adversely affect reproduction.
Other Long-Term Effects

Exposure to 2,4-Dinitrophenol can cause dermatitis. Clouding of the eye lenses (cataracts) may occur after a long exposure.
High or repeated exposure can effect the nervous system causing nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, headache, anxiety, weakness, convulsions and even death.
2,4-Dinitrophenol may damage the liver and kidneys

 

[M56M]

You can do whatever you put your mind to. Who says you can't sprint and squat on the same day? Just dig a little deeper.

As far as fat being estrogenic vs. otherwise...well, from a clinical standpoint there is a difference between brown fat and white fat, and then more subtle differences between what promotes the storage.

But if the fire is hot enough, all wood burns. Bust your ass. Forget about analyzing the fat. Just fire up those sprints and squats, cut out the sugars, lift hard, shoot gear, and fix your fucking heads to stop talking about what can't be done and just go do what needs to be done.

Fucking well put. I am going to put this in my signature, so whenever i post i read it. VERY NICE.

M56M

 

[bigrand]

BTW, DNP came up AMES negative, and has been shown to not damage liver or kidneys.
That OSHA shit has a bunch of MAYs on DNP, but there have been studies before showing its safety.