Clomid Strategy

[3Vandoo]

hmmm now im confused for my next cycle I will use alot of stuffs

But I have enanthate, sust and cyp for 10 weeks
I also have winny for 12 weeks

so I should start in theory clomid at end of week 13? to benefit the best results

 

[strong island]

While doing research on this topic..I found a good article by Bill Roberts which discussed clomid. It is in Dirty Dieting Newsletter #4.

Basically Bill said that it is not widely realized that estradiol upregulates GnRH receptors. You see clomid blocks estrogen receptors at the hypothalamus and pituitary.

So even though clomid causes more GnRH to be produced...it also lowers the response to it.


What we want to happen:

Clomiphene blocks estrogen receptors in hypothalamus causing:

1. Hypothalamus releases GnRH

2. GnRH stimulates Pituitary to release LH

3. LH stimulates Testes to release Testosterone

Then I have my balls back and keep my gains

 

[fitwizard]

I like your question and research Strong Island. You are as pedant as me.

Anyway, I am VERY intersted in hearing when I should start clomid as well. Because I am currently on a cycle very similar:
750mg Enathate and 450mg EQ for 10 weeks.

I was really wondering when would be the best timing to start Clomid. I though about 2.5 weeks but not sure. Don't want to sacrifice muscle, and clomid is cheap anyway.

 

[serge]

Right now I am tediously planning my first cycle in four years. I couldn't have done it without EF. I believe the most important part of a cycle is the end. If I do not keep most of my gains I will consider the cycle a failure.

Clomid is the key. But when to start is still shady to me. I have read a very informative post about clomid which states to start clomid 3 weeks after Equipoise and 2 weeks after Enanthate. This type of blanket treatment does not make sense to me. I think the amount of blood levels after the last shot must be taken into consideration.

For example a large doser of EQ might have 3000 mg in his body as of the last shot...and a low doser might have 1000 mg.

After 21 days, the large doser still has 1242 mg of EQ in his body.
The small doser only has 414 mg of EQ.


The following charts show the levels after 21 days for EQ and 14 days for Enanthate.

EQ Chart

after last shot***Time******Half-Life*****Level
3000***********21*********16.5*******1242
1800***********21*********16.5*******745
1000***********21*********16.5*******414
500************21*********16.5*******207

Enanthate Chart

after last shot***Time******Half-Life*****Level
3000***********14*********10.5*******1191
1800***********14*********10.5*******714
1000***********14*********10.5*******397
500************14*********10.5*******198

I read on anabolic extreme that to get an approximation of half life for an ester, you take the number of carbon atoms and multiply by 1.5 days.

Enanthate has 7 Carbons (7 x 1.5 = 10.5 days)
Undecanoate has 11 Carbons (11 x 1.5 = 16.5)

The equation to find the levels at any given day is:

x = I x [.5^(T/H)]

I = Initial dosage (use blood level at last shot)
T = Day you are trying to figure out.
H = Half-life

example:
Half life of 1000 Enanthate after 21 days (2 half lives) should be 250.

x = 1000 x [.5^(21/10.5)]

x = 250

What is an appropriate level to start clomid?

Should I just start 3 weeks after last EQ shot?

Or should levels be closer to "natural levels"?

I think I read a post a few weeks ago which mentioned a test I could purchase to test blood levels after the cycle to aid in clomid therapy.

Could any vets help out?

very easy way to solve your problems, for the last 3 weeks of the cycle switch over to fast acting gear, run test (cyp, sust or enenthate) but the last 3 weeks replace them with test prop or suspension, if running deca, dump it 3 weeks out and add winny or tren. that way you dont have to think too much about how long it takes for everything to leave your system, you can start your clomids right after the cycle ends

 

[strong island]

switching to faster acting gear does not lower blood levels of the longer acting gear that is already in your system.


Whether you are off three weeks or you swith to a shorter acting ester for three weeks, it might not be long enough.




The question is how long after you stop the longer acting gear do you start clomid?

If it is three weeks then I'll stop for three weeks...but if I need four or five weeks...then I'll swith to a shorter ester for four or five weeks.

The question I need to answer (and it might different for everyone) is: what amount of AAS in the blood is low enough in which clomid will stimulate the hypothalamus.

But I definitely agree that propionate is a key player in the perfect cycle.

 

[strong island]

The problem I am having is that I am using EQ as the backbone for this cycle. I have read from many sources that EQ should be run longer than 8 weeks for optimal results.

I am taking my last shot in the middle of the ninth week.

Undecanoate is great because it is a long acting ester, BUT its drawback is its long half-life.

I was planning on running Tren 2 weeks past EQ. But I think it will have to be atleast four.

And that leads me to another problem...I don't want to run longer than twelve weeks.

Questions:

Is 14 weeks too long for the testes to be dormant?

Should I include HCG after 8 weeks?

 

[strong island]

Update:

I found this by Bill Roberts:

"To understand inhibition of testosterone production, we need to know first how it is produced and how production is controlled. The broad general picture is that the hypothalamus receives a variety of inputs, for example, levels of various hormones, and decides whether or not more sex hormones should be produced. If the inputs are high, for example, high estrogen or high androgen or both, then it decides that little or no sex hormones should now be produced, but if all inputs are low, then it may decide that more sex hormones should be produced. It seems that the hypothalamus doesn’t respond only to current hormone levels, but also to the past history of hormone levels."

The last sentence is the part I am interested in. But still shady. Maybe the blood levels do not have to reach "normal" levels. maybe they just have to reach a level significantly lower than previous levels to stimulate the hypothalamus.

I have realized that there is not a consensus when it comes to clomid therapy. During my research on this topic I have found a few sources which still say just to start when the cycle ends.

 

[strong island]

BUMP

Anyone have any ideas or suggestions on this topic.

 

[argent]

The question I need to answer (and it might different for everyone) is: what amount of AAS in the blood is low enough in which clomid will stimulate the hypothalamus.

Bump for this answer. I think if this can be established then everything else will fall in place behind it.

 

[Bar Room Hero]

Bump. This is a good thread with thoughtful discussion. I like it.