Blood Test ZRT - 9mo post cycle

[cgar1228]

Hormone Test.....In Range...Out Of Range...Units.....Range
Estradiol.........................<10L..............pg/ml........(12-56)
Testosterone...................280L...............ng/dL.....(400-1200)
Ratio: T/SHBG.................0.4..................L...........(.7 - 1.0)
DHEAS................135...........................ug/dL.....(70-325)
Cortisol...............12.3..........................ug/dL.....(6-13,Morning)
SHBG..................26............................nmol/L....(15-50)
PSA....................1.0...........................ng/ml.....(optimal 0.5-2)


This test was done last week and it has been 9 months since my deca/test cycle. I have done 2 PCTs utilizing HCG both times as well as Nolvadex and almost every thing you can think of.

I am wondering where to go from here b/c before this cycle my total testosterone was 990 and now it is 280 and hasn't gone up since my blood sample a few weeks after my cycle. PLEASE HELP me figure out what I need to do. Thanks. K to all

 

[stevesmi]

i know everyone is gonna say go on HRT. but I will tell you that the body will recover.. give it more time.

you didn't mention how long your deca cycle was.

 

[lartinos]

If you aren't using any peptides I would jump on one asap. IGF-1 works quite well for me, I would also be using a moderate to weak AI along with it.
I would stay away from the HCG for a awhile and I would work on lowering your cortisol levels because you want a good ratio between the two to get the highest test levels. Try using some good doses of vitamin C for awhile and cut down on stimulants as well. I would wait to take your adderllin. Ghrp, igf-1, HGH, etc... I would try one and see how you feel.

 

[cgar1228]

i know everyone is gonna say go on HRT. but I will tell you that the body will recover.. give it more time.

you didn't mention how long your deca cycle was.

deca 10wk 400mg/wk
test 12wk 500mg/wk

It's been 9 months and my testosterone levels have not gone up even 10 points from where they were a month after my cycle... They were 290 now they are 280.... I have taken all the right steps to get everything going again so you'd think after 9 mos this would be better... My libido is def not what it was before cycle so that's the main thing that concerns me. I'm taking Unleashed right now with no rise in sex drive.

 

[cgar1228]

If you aren't using any peptides I would jump on one asap. IGF-1 works quite well for me, I would also be using a moderate to weak AI along with it.
I would stay away from the HCG for a awhile and I would work on lowering your cortisol levels because you want a good ratio between the two to get the highest test levels. Try using some good doses of vitamin C for awhile and cut down on stimulants as well. I would wait to take your adderllin. Ghrp, igf-1, HGH, etc... I would try one and see how you feel.

I started taking HGH Hygetropin at 4iu per day 2 months ago. I have also been taking about 3g of Vit C per day for the last year. I didn't take it on the morning of the test b/c I was fasting so I don't understand what's going on. I do eventually want to cycle again and it doesn't seem like my body is recovering...

 

[stevesmi]

deca 10wk 400mg/wk
test 12wk 500mg/wk

It's been 9 months and my testosterone levels have not gone up even 10 points from where they were a month after my cycle... They were 290 now they are 280.... I have taken all the right steps to get everything going again so you'd think after 9 mos this would be better... My libido is def not what it was before cycle so that's the main thing that concerns me. I'm taking Unleashed right now with no rise in sex drive.

I don't get it bro. all we can do is exchange our own experiences. most guys on here are either cruising or on HRT and have given up on cycling which makes it even harder to get reliable information on true cycling.. i really do believe the body takes longer then people think to recover. I have read that deca takes 5 full weeks for the esthers just to clear the body, so it will suppress you hard everytime.

I will tell you this:

i ran the same cycle.

6 weeks after my last injection and after PCT. my total test was 98 and kidney values were off. (no big surprise as roids do increase red blood cell count) I was concerned but not that worried

2 1/2 months after last injection and PCT my levels only got up to 119. i realized it would take TIME.

i ran another PCT. and i plan on doing a blood test next month. i hope to be within range.

my best advice again would be to just let the body recover on its own. dont take anything.. re-test in 2 months.

i do believe deca can take a year to finally get recovered. i am not messing with it ever again. its primo for me from now on

 

[needtogetarmy]

How old are you?

Normal ranges can depend on age.

Male Normal Testosterone Levels - Average Ranges by Age in Men | ng/dl and nmol/L

You need to get a full panel done, including free test, LH, etc.

I have seen studies that Deca can permanently decrease HPTA functioning by 25% or so.

 

[cgar1228]

How old are you?

Normal ranges can depend on age.

Male Normal Testosterone Levels - Average Ranges by Age in Men | ng/dl and nmol/L

You need to get a full panel done, including free test, LH, etc.

I have seen studies that Deca can permanently decrease HPTA functioning by 25% or so.

I am 31yo and my Normal/Never cycled before results were 953.

I have had a full test done and have the link to that here.....
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...cle-before-after-blood-comparison-708745.html

Thanks for your help bro

 

[needtogetarmy]

I am 31yo and my Normal/Never cycled before results were 953.

I have had a full test done and have the link to that here.....
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...cle-before-after-blood-comparison-708745.html

Thanks for your help bro

It looks like your body is not producing enough LH and FSH.

I would run 1000ius of HCG two times per week for three to four weeks. Nothing else. People have a habit of throwing everything including the kitchen sink when doing PCT, like running clomid and HCG together with a ton of supplements. Running clomid and HCG by itself is counterproductive and it can impede recovery.

Do the HCG protocol and then get blood work done two weeks after and see where you stand.

Just as it was posted above, it can take a long time to recover.

I read an article on female pregnancy and male test levels and male test levels drop when a female gives birth. Why? To lower the aggressiveness of the male so he becomes a good dad. The same study showed that it takes 6-9 months for the male to get back to his baseline levels.

That said, HCG and other substances can assist in bringing up your levels, but it also takes time.

 

[cgar1228]

It looks like your body is not producing enough LH and FSH.

I would run 1000ius of HCG two times per week for three to four weeks. Nothing else. People have a habit of throwing everything including the kitchen sink when doing PCT, like running clomid and HCG together with a ton of supplements. Running clomid and HCG by itself is counterproductive and it can impede recovery.

Do the HCG protocol and then get blood work done two weeks after and see where you stand.

Just as it was posted above, it can take a long time to recover.

I read an article on female pregnancy and male test levels and male test levels drop when a female gives birth. Why? To lower the aggressiveness of the male so he becomes a good dad. The same study showed that it takes 6-9 months for the male to get back to his baseline levels.

That said, HCG and other substances can assist in bringing up your levels, but it also takes time.

I ran HCG after my cycle but probably didn't run enough doing it only 4 times at 600iu.

My second PCT consisted of HCG at 500iu ED for 10 days and then used Nolva for 3 wks at 20mg per day. This was about 2 1/2 months ago I did this.

Do you really thing I should try HCG again?? Since then I have bought HMG and HCG but have them waiting for my next cycle... so I have them on hand but really don't want to the exact same thing that failed last time.

 

[mikevegas]

Well to see if you are making progress, try to duplicate the test under exact conditions (time of day, no food in stomach, etc), each one month apart, and see what happens. If no improvement, I don't know what you could try different than you already have. Maybe try PCT again? Maybe see an endocrinologist. Maybe try HMG. All I can think of, sorry not much more help.

 

[stevesmi]

HMG is worth a shot. I've tried it myself but CANNOT say whether it worked or not as I have not gonna blood work done yet.

from what i've read just 2 doses of 75iu's is all you need. i dont see the harm in trying it.

 

[cgar1228]

Well to see if you are making progress, try to duplicate the test under exact conditions (time of day, no food in stomach, etc), each one month apart, and see what happens. If no improvement, I don't know what you could try different than you already have. Maybe try PCT again? Maybe see an endocrinologist. Maybe try HMG. All I can think of, sorry not much more help.

All three blood tests I have had since my cycle were in the morning on a empty stomach. I will definitely test again a month from now to see where i'm at but I suspect the results will be the same.

I saw an endocrinologist after each of my blood tests. The last time I saw him I spilled the beans about everything I had done and he said that he wants me to stop taking anything that would affect the test and then retest again in December. I got a little ansey and ordered a ZRT test and tested myself with the same result as last time.

So I asked the Doc..."so if I come to see you in 2 months and my testosterone levels have not started returning to normal then what?" and he said, "then we will wait 2 more months and retest again"...

I honestly don't feel I will recover if I don't actively do something. Maybe I'm just being impatient but fuck it's been 9 months!!!!

HMG is worth a shot. I've tried it myself but CANNOT say whether it worked or not as I have not gonna blood work done yet.

from what i've read just 2 doses of 75iu's is all you need. i dont see the harm in trying it.

Maybe i'll give this a try if nothing else works.. I'm interested to see how well it will work for you.

 

[needtogetarmy]

I ran HCG after my cycle but probably didn't run enough doing it only 4 times at 600iu.

My second PCT consisted of HCG at 500iu ED for 10 days and then used Nolva for 3 wks at 20mg per day. This was about 2 1/2 months ago I did this.

Do you really thing I should try HCG again?? Since then I have bought HMG and HCG but have them waiting for my next cycle... so I have them on hand but really don't want to the exact same thing that failed last time.

Every one of us will react differently to these substances. The 4 times you ran 600ius may not have been enough. 500ius ED for 10 days may not have been long enough, and too much over the time period. Based on what I have read, and talking to my HRT docs, they recommend 1000ius twice a week. One said not to use more than 2000ius a week.


Based on everything you have written, 600ius the first time around was most likely not enough. The second time, maybe 10 days was not enough. I no longer see the ED protocols used due to desensitizing issues so I do not recommend taking it ED.

I do not react well to nolva, and maybe that is an issue for you regarding the second PCT.

I would run 1000ius M & Th for three weeks. 5 days following the HCG start clomid. The sides can be a pain for some people but clomid does wonders for me. Run 50mg of clomid for 4 weeks. DO NOT overlap the clomid and HCG.

Some supplements I use are ZMA, DAA, and Vit D. Also, try hitting a tanning bed or if you are in a warm location, spend some time outside and catch some rays. That can assist in test production.

Another drug you can add is dostinex. This will assist with prolactin. Your results showed your prolactin was already low but I have seen people dun dostinex with extra PCTs after tren and deca cycles and it helps with the libido. Dostinex can be run .5mg twice a week for the entire length of your PCT overlapping the HCG and clomid.

Also, an alternative to clomid is toremifene. I have not personally used this but some guys swear by it.

I am currently running 400mg test and 200mg of deca. My PCT will be 1000ius of HCG M & Th for two weeks (I always run 250-500ius M & Th during cycle taking one week off in the middle of the cycle) and 5 days after my last HCG shot I start the clomid at 50mg for 3-4 weeks depending on how I feel.

ON a final note, do not go crazy with the HCG. Your body can become desensitized to it. As long as you stick to no more than 1000ius a shot and use it twice a week you should be fine. While running it during a cycle, always take a week off in the middle. ALWAYS run HCG during a cycle because it helps recovery and ALWAYS use dostinex when running tren or deca.

Hopefully some others will chime in on this one. Radar is at the top of his game.

 

[needtogetarmy]

Just another note, (after looking at your cycle) deca and test should always be taken in a 1:2 ratio. If you take 300mg/wk of deca take 600mg of test.

 

[tical]

It would be helpful to have some LH/FSH lab numbers, but regardless it still appears as if you've got a problem.

Is your scrotum tight? Testicles soft?

If I were you I'd jump on a PCT of clomid only for a much longer duration (4-6 months). I would start with a dose of about 25mg ED, then get labs about 5 weeks in to determine the response and adjust the dose accordingly.

The goal here is to get test levels up for several months and then taper off of the SERM (12.5mg, 6.25mg) and allow your body to take over. Then get some labs done about 4 weeks after stopping to see where you're at.

DO NOT TAKE HCG WHILE ON PCT.

 

[cgar1228]

It would be helpful to have some LH/FSH lab numbers, but regardless it still appears as if you've got a problem.

Is your scrotum tight? Testicles soft?

If I were you I'd jump on a PCT of clomid only for a much longer duration (4-6 months). I would start with a dose of about 25mg ED, then get labs about 5 weeks in to determine the response and adjust the dose accordingly.

The goal here is to get test levels up for several months and then taper off of the SERM (12.5mg, 6.25mg) and allow your body to take over. Then get some labs done about 4 weeks after stopping to see where you're at.

DO NOT TAKE HCG WHILE ON PCT.

Yeah bro, I posted the link for the LH/FSH numbers on the first page. Check it out. This was from my blood test about 3 months post cycle.

Scrotum and testes are in check.

I will try clomid but I get emotional as fuck on it even at 25mg/day and might wack myself if I stay on it too long... I've tried Nolva for 4 weeks and was fine on that but it didn't seem to help...

 

[tical]

Yeah bro, I posted the link for the LH/FSH numbers on the first page. Check it out. This was from my blood test about 3 months post cycle.

Scrotum and testes are in check.

I will try clomid but I get emotional as fuck on it even at 25mg/day and might wack myself if I stay on it too long... I've tried Nolva for 4 weeks and was fine on that but it didn't seem to help...

I took at look at your other thread. A few comments (not meant to offend):

PCT:
-TRS Stack from Primordial Performance - Sustain Alpha, EndoAmp Max, Toco8 [4 wks]
-Unleashed 4 caps ed [5 wks]
-Foremestane from PP 2 times a day for [4 wks]
-HCGenerate 8 caps ed [on going]
-4 shots of REAL hcg at 600iu per shot e3d starting @ 1 wk post cycle (it's all I had available...)
-Novedex XT [wk 12-14]
-TCF-1 from PP [wk 11-14]
-ZMA supplement every day

1. Your original PCT was questionable. The products used (other than HCG) all appeared to be what's "in" now and hyped on the boards. You didn't use a real SERM (clomid / nolva) to stimulate the release of LH from your pituitary.

Stick with what there are actual medical studies on that you can google yourself.

2. Your use of HCG was incorrect. You don't want to use HCG post cycle. All it does is mimic LH to increase testosterone, potentially aiding in HPTA suppression. You want the testosterone increase during PCT to come from actual LH.

3. 4 weeks is not long enough for a PCT. You want your HPTA to recover fully. The idea is to get your T and LH towards the top of the range, and stay there for several months. Then slowly wean off of the SERM and allow your HPTA to take control. This takes time.

I prefer clomid but whether you're using clomid or nolvadex, do a blood test a few weeks in to see how your LH/FSH/T levels are responding. If they're not high enough, raise the dosage and then test again.

Do not prematurely end PCT. Stick with it until all is said and done.

If that doesn't help you recover, you may want to look into TRT. But from personal experience, TRT just opens the door to more and more issues down the road. So don't jump into it unless you have to.

 

[lartinos]

Are you currently running an AI?

 

[RADAR]

deca can mess up your HPTA for a long time ,so its not unusual for certain subjects to experience what you are going they,remember nandrolone like Deca and compounds like fina can linger in the body up to 18 months, but theres good news, the same thing happened to me ,except i was in my late 40's, it was almost a year before i recovered ,and yes my PCT was spot on, actually I ran several different types of PCT,none helped, beware of taking too much HCG or you will be in a bigger mess than you are now.the best thing is let the body recover slowly ,personally i wouldn't worry about all those blood test as it won't make a difference, what you could do to help some is take HCGenerate a low dosage for a long peroid of time so several bottles will be required, this is the best thing at the moment ,don't complicate thing by adding more compounds thinking more is better ,because its not, eventually you will recover 4 caps a day of HCGenerate should speed things up ,but its not going to happen over night.so relax because stress will just delay the inevitable .

Peace
RADAR

 

[stevesmi]

deca can mess up your HPTA for a long time ,so its not unusual for certain subjects to experience what you are going they,remember nandrolone like Deca and compounds like fina can linger in the body up to 18 months, but theres good news, the same thing happened to me ,except i was in my late 40's, it was almost a year before i recovered ,and yes my PCT was spot on, actually I ran several different types of PCT,none helped, beware of taking too much HCG or you will be in a bigger mess than you are now.the best thing is let the body recover slowly ,personally i wouldn't worry about all those blood test as it won't make a difference, what you could do to help some is take HCGenerate a low dosage for a long peroid of time so several bottles will be required, this is the best thing at the moment ,don't complicate thing by adding more compounds thinking more is better ,because its not, eventually you will recover 4 caps a day of HCGenerate should speed things up ,but its not going to happen over night.so relax because stress will just delay the inevitable .

Peace
RADAR

and I am slowly recovering also after deca. its been 5 months for me. and I ran an excellent PCT, and even a 2nd PCT.. I'm being patient. its scary to have low test levels but I will say the gains I made are worth taking a long time to recover. I am a new person thanks to deca.

thanks for that re-assuring post.

 

[RADAR]

I forgot to mention also ,keep your training going this is most important in helping your HPTA get back on track.

 

[mikevegas]

Hey Army Vet what do you use for anti-E when running the HCG on and off cycle? Must need something at 1000 twice per week, yeah?

 

[needtogetarmy]

Hey Army Vet what do you use for anti-E when running the HCG on and off cycle? Must need something at 1000 twice per week, yeah?

Anastrozole, 1 mg M & Th.

I do not run that much during cycle. Only 250 to 500ius while on. I am running 500ius M & Th this cycle since I am running test and deca. I increase it to 1000iu for the two weeks after my last shot.

As for elevated estrogen I cannot get gyno because I have had surgery. I sometimes do not take the Anastrozole.

 

[cgar1228]

Every one of us will react differently to these substances. The 4 times you ran 600ius may not have been enough. 500ius ED for 10 days may not have been long enough, and too much over the time period. Based on what I have read, and talking to my HRT docs, they recommend 1000ius twice a week. One said not to use more than 2000ius a week.


Based on everything you have written, 600ius the first time around was most likely not enough. The second time, maybe 10 days was not enough. I no longer see the ED protocols used due to desensitizing issues so I do not recommend taking it ED.

I do not react well to nolva, and maybe that is an issue for you regarding the second PCT.

I would run 1000ius M & Th for three weeks. 5 days following the HCG start clomid. The sides can be a pain for some people but clomid does wonders for me. Run 50mg of clomid for 4 weeks. DO NOT overlap the clomid and HCG.

Some supplements I use are ZMA, DAA, and Vit D. Also, try hitting a tanning bed or if you are in a warm location, spend some time outside and catch some rays. That can assist in test production.

Another drug you can add is dostinex. This will assist with prolactin. Your results showed your prolactin was already low but I have seen people dun dostinex with extra PCTs after tren and deca cycles and it helps with the libido. Dostinex can be run .5mg twice a week for the entire length of your PCT overlapping the HCG and clomid.

Also, an alternative to clomid is toremifene. I have not personally used this but some guys swear by it.

I am currently running 400mg test and 200mg of deca. My PCT will be 1000ius of HCG M & Th for two weeks (I always run 250-500ius M & Th during cycle taking one week off in the middle of the cycle) and 5 days after my last HCG shot I start the clomid at 50mg for 3-4 weeks depending on how I feel.

ON a final note, do not go crazy with the HCG. Your body can become desensitized to it. As long as you stick to no more than 1000ius a shot and use it twice a week you should be fine. While running it during a cycle, always take a week off in the middle. ALWAYS run HCG during a cycle because it helps recovery and ALWAYS use dostinex when running tren or deca.

Hopefully some others will chime in on this one. Radar is at the top of his game.

This is great advise by somebody who definitely seems to know what they are talking about. I have been on ZMA for a while and it helps me sleep but isn't doing much for my Test levels as far as I can tell. I have some clomid and all the things I would need to do another type of PCT but i'm just waiting to take it all in and make a decision about what I will do. Thanks bro!!

 

[cgar1228]

Are you currently running an AI?

No I am not running an AI currently but if you look at my bloods you will see every time that my estrogen is below the range to i'm not sure an AI is needed do you?

 

[cgar1228]

I took at look at your other thread. A few comments (not meant to offend):



1. Your original PCT was questionable. The products used (other than HCG) all appeared to be what's "in" now and hyped on the boards. You didn't use a real SERM (clomid / nolva) to stimulate the release of LH from your pituitary.

Stick with what there are actual medical studies on that you can google yourself.

2. Your use of HCG was incorrect. You don't want to use HCG post cycle. All it does is mimic LH to increase testosterone, potentially aiding in HPTA suppression. You want the testosterone increase during PCT to come from actual LH.

3. 4 weeks is not long enough for a PCT. You want your HPTA to recover fully. The idea is to get your T and LH towards the top of the range, and stay there for several months. Then slowly wean off of the SERM and allow your HPTA to take control. This takes time.

I prefer clomid but whether you're using clomid or nolvadex, do a blood test a few weeks in to see how your LH/FSH/T levels are responding. If they're not high enough, raise the dosage and then test again.

Do not prematurely end PCT. Stick with it until all is said and done.

If that doesn't help you recover, you may want to look into TRT. But from personal experience, TRT just opens the door to more and more issues down the road. So don't jump into it unless you have to.

Yeah I thought i could get away with running my HCG post cycle but i didn't work for me and next time I run a cycle i will run HCG during to keep the boyz going.

I don't want to go on TRT yet so that's why I haven't jumped on another cycle. I will run Nolva or Clomid next time and maybe use some HCGenerate after that.

Thanks so much for your help and advise bro it means a lot!!

 

[cgar1228]

deca can mess up your HPTA for a long time ,so its not unusual for certain subjects to experience what you are going they,remember nandrolone like Deca and compounds like fina can linger in the body up to 18 months, but theres good news, the same thing happened to me ,except i was in my late 40's, it was almost a year before i recovered ,and yes my PCT was spot on, actually I ran several different types of PCT,none helped, beware of taking too much HCG or you will be in a bigger mess than you are now.the best thing is let the body recover slowly ,personally i wouldn't worry about all those blood test as it won't make a difference, what you could do to help some is take HCGenerate a low dosage for a long peroid of time so several bottles will be required, this is the best thing at the moment ,don't complicate thing by adding more compounds thinking more is better ,because its not, eventually you will recover 4 caps a day of HCGenerate should speed things up ,but its not going to happen over night.so relax because stress will just delay the inevitable .

Peace
RADAR

You are the man Radar. Thanks for your input bro it is appreciated and taken to heart. I just ordered some HCGenerate to get things going.

After deca shut you down, did you ever run deca again and how did you prevent the massive shutdown from it the second time around? Deca was heaven on my joints and actually healed my bum ankle so I would LOVE to run it again some time in the future but wanna know the right steps to take.

 

[zedhed]

Bump
This is excellent lesson for everybody on here. It needs to be kept up at the top for awhile.
Good luck cgar!
And big thanks for all the Gr8 input all you good bros!

 

[daveyboy2345]

Don't take more than 300 mgs. Deca a week.

 

[cgar1228]

Don't take more than 300 mgs. Deca a week.

I agree that more than 300 per wk is not needed. It was definitely overkill for me last cycle and possibly why i'm in this predicament. Omega has a great post on here about how much deca to use and what to use while you are on it. He suggests no more than about 150mg per wk. Next time I will do this.

 

[tical]

Nandrolone will suppress you at 2 levels due to the progestin base as well as aromatization to estrogen.

1. Reducing LH/FSH release from the pituitary by binding to androgen receptors and suppressing GnRH release from the hypothalamus. (GnRH is what our brain sends to the pituitary to start making LH/FSH).
2. Binding to estrogen and progestin receptors - downregulating GnRH receptors on the pituitary.

So you get a double whammy, specifically a more significant one due to the pituitary receptor downregulation via progestin.

This *could* be why some have lingering HPTA suppression, even after a proper PCT when using progestin based steroids like Deca/Tren. The downregulation of receptors on the pituitary could make you less responsive GnRH stimulation (which we indirectly achieve by using a SERM), leaving you producing lower amounts of LH to increase testosterone.