Best Lat Excercises

[LT3]

i never said you werent getting a good workout.

You didnt?

Most of us here accept the fact that pump and muscle soreness have no bearing on a good workout.

i merely stated that you were doing the obviously inferior excercise, and there really is no sense in arguing that.

How is there no sense in arguing that? you think its inferior, i think its superior, we can argue our points. theres no point to the discussion but we can argue them.

and as good as your back development is it would undoubtedly be better with bb rows.

By saying this, youre assuming that i never did bb rows. i did and they just fatigued me. the next day i would feel nothing and be in good shape, no soreness. so i see no point in doing them.

with this thought process deads should probably be done on a smith machine and pull downs should replace pull ups

bro, youre assuming that there is such a thing as an inferior exercise. theres not, theres what works for you and what doesnt. deads dont do much for me, pull ups did a good job in giving me lat development, but now they dont do much. pull downs on the other hand are awsome, coz i can go really heavy and concentrate on my back.

Obviously your idea of a good workout is based around the pump you get from doing high volume training.

For your info bro, i only do heavy lifts with low volume. so dont assume the latter statement.

Most of us here accept the fact that pump and muscle soreness have no bearing on a good workout.

WHAAAT!? thats exactly what determines a good work out, if you feel the pump in the gym and if you are sore the next day.

The "feel" is not the same in bb rows because you are exerting yourself too much to be concerned with such unimportant things.

Thats fatigue, meaning you wore yourself out toooo early.

 

[silver_shadow]

i favour t bar and cable rows/pull downs for the lats.

 

[Guinness5.0]

WHAAAT!? thats exactly what determines a good work out, if you feel the pump in the gym and if you are sore the next day.
.

I am not saying this to sound like a dick, but the pump and soreness are NOT indicators of a successful workout. Soreness (DOMS) generally means that you are not conditioned for the amount of work you are performing. IMHO most people who have been lifting for a good while and still get sore are those that subscribe to the "train each muscle group 1x/week or you'll overtrain" camp. In this case soreness is likely due to the de-training effect of allowing too much time to elapse b/t workouts, then bombarding these muscles with a rigorous session (again, this is my experience -- not saying it's conclusive).

I noticed for myself that once I started to train lifts rather than body parts, soreness was basically a memory. On my heaviest of workouts I'd definitely know that I'd been to the gym the day before but I haven't experienced the type of stiffness and discomfort that I used to associate with a good workout.

And I support Musketeer's suggestion that you guys check out Madcow's 5x5 thead -- NOT NECESARILLY for the program itself, but b/c he's got a boatload of training info (from some highly respected sources) that is quite interesting to say the least. Basically, if the majority of your training info comes from magazines and "gym science" , this will be some fascinating stuff.

Better yet, check out his Geocities website:

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/

 

[LT3]

Bro, if you are training your lifts then you are not training like a bber trains. thats how a powerlifter trains. to improve lifts, not muscle size, definition etc . if you are no longer sore than you are ignoring a very important part of lifting: the overload process, if you are not overloading the muscle you are not making progress.

Soreness (DOMS) generally means that you are not conditioned for the amount of work you are performing.

yes thats what you should do, your body gets conditioned for a type of session then you intensify the session so you teach your body to adapt to an even more intense session.

IMHO most people who have been lifting for a good while and still get sore are those that subscribe to the "train each muscle group 1x/week or you'll overtrain" camp. In this case soreness is likely due to the de-training effect of allowing too much time to elapse b/t workouts, then bombarding these muscles with a rigorous session

Well i cant train the muscle more than once a week, unless its abs or calves because im too sore, according to you this is because my muscles get "de-trained" then i "bombard them". this is exactly how you grow. if you are working out and not feeling the effect then you are not growing.

again, this is my experience -- not saying it's conclusive

Right so when i say that i dont agree with you, then accept it, just as i accept your view. but dont say that my way of working out, which is the majority, is wrong or inferior.

I noticed for myself that once I started to train lifts rather than body parts, soreness was basically a memory. On my heaviest of workouts I'd definitely know that I'd been to the gym the day before but I haven't experienced the type of stiffness and discomfort that I used to associate with a good workout.

Well then bro you're training as if you were preparing for a powerlifting competition, not bbing.

Basically, if the majority of your training info comes from magazines and "gym science" , this will be some fascinating stuff.

No my info comes from university. so basically you are looking at training from a different perspective than i am. i train like a bber, i dont care what i lift, how much or what exercise, as long as my muscles look good. you care about improving your lifts and dismiss all other exercises as "inferior". listen bro i believe in specificity, i train specifically to look good on stage, you train specifically to lift more. we have different goals. thats fine. But there is NO Way that you can say my type of training is not right, it might not be right for you but its perfect for me thats how i grow.

 

[Guinness5.0]

LT3-

First and foremost, I am not trying to be argumentative. I never once said your way of training was inferior. I'm stating that there is more to lifting/BBing than pump, soreness, isolation, etc. This is discussion to me, and serves to further enhance my understanding of how the body works. I feel no need to insult anyone or make myself out to be any kind of authority on this subject.

That said, I think that too often people seek to create a huge divide b/t BBing and other strength sports (PL, Oly lifting, etc.). Clearly there are differences, but building muscle is building muscle. A bigger muscle is a stronger muscle (meaning if person A gets bigger, person A gets stronger, not that if person A is bigger than person B that person A is stronger than B). Sure, PL's have minimal concern for their appearance, but if you take a look at some of the Westside guys or Oly guys, they have incredible physiques that would do quite well on a BB stage if they took the effort the shed bodyfat. We don't need to reinvent the wheel for the sake of aesthetics - the time tested methods of putting more weight on the bar over a period will add muscle to anyone. Sure, rep ranges are different at times, but the really foundational stuff is (or should be) similar.

Speaking from experience, in the last 6+ months I have used almost ZERO isolation exercises and no machines other than pulldowns when I couldn't do enough pullups to achieve my desired rep range, and have actually improved many of my muscles that are typically thought of as needy of isolation. Specifically, my rear delts have vastly improved from performing the rows I linked to in my original post in this thread.

And BTW, you seem to think that I'm a PL or something. Well, I don't really fit a category. I wanna look decent and be strong, but I have no competive aspirations. So call that what you want .

EDIT: And I'm not ignoring overload at all - I'm simply not defining it by how sore I get (subjective) but rather by how much more work (repsxweight - objective) that I perform. Here are the last three training cycles I've completed, and a link to my current cycle.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=399754
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=413313
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=430297
Current:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=442968


You may notice that in the second link I managed to overwork myself pretty well But I learned a bit about my tolerance for workload and how it is possible to overwork a specific area of the body while keeping systemic fatigue in check.

 

[LT3]

you seem to think that I'm a PL or something. Well, I don't really fit a category.

????

my goals and interests aren't really bodybuilding per se. I guess "powerbuilding" would be a good way to descride what I'm in to

I never once said your way of training was inferior.

?????

you were doing the obviously inferior excercise

Clearly there are differences, but building muscle is building muscle. A bigger muscle is a stronger muscle

Bro its not as simple as that. coz a stronger person does not mean much in bbing if he/she looks like shit. Prime example-greg kovacs, strong but looks like shit.
flex wheeler or better yet a huge man: Paul Dillet- lift like pussies, but look big and great.

We don't need to reinvent the wheel for the sake of aesthetics - the time tested methods of putting more weight on the bar over a period will add muscle to anyone.

Again its not as easy as that. what about olympic lifters that weigh 120lbs but keep lifting heavier and heavier.i know guys half my size that lift more than me and keep increasing the weight faster than me.

And by saying this:

my goals and interests aren't really bodybuilding per se. I guess "powerbuilding" would be a good way to descride what I'm in to

You clearly show that your goals are not like bbers, and even though powerbuilding is not powerlifting, its a lot closer to power lifting than bbing. also by focusing on power and making that your priority, you are arguing from a pl's perspective more that a bbers. as a bber im telling you that that kind of training does not apply to me. as long as i look good on stage im fine. again Specificity- you train to be strong and look decent and i train to look good on a bbing stage.

 

[Guinness5.0]

This is delving into pointless bickering, especially since there's a quote in your last post that isn't even mine ("you were doing the obviously inferior exercise"). If you can't respond with anything but question marks I tend to think you don't know enough on the subject to form a valid retort.

Keep it accurate and civil and we can learn something.

 

[muscelove]

I know this discussion has changed from what builds lat to bbing vs. p.lifting but I would like to add that I find bb rows to be a staple of my back workout. Wide grip chins aswell. Whats the feeling on pullups for back development?

 

[LT3]

This is delving into pointless bickering, especially since there's a quote in your last post that isn't even mine ("you were doing the obviously inferior exercise"). If you can't respond with anything but question marks I tend to think you don't know enough on the subject to form a valid retort.

Keep it accurate and civil and we can learn something.

My Bad, i didnt realise that wasnt you. anyway back to the topic at hand. i dont understand how you can say that we can learn something. there is nothing to learn here, all thats going on is, my way is better than yours-no mine is better. all im saying is we cannot compare the two training methods for the simple reason that out goals are different, thus our approaches are different. thats all there is to it. you'll never agree with my approach and i wont agree with yours. and as far as my last post goes, yes i made a mistake in the first quote but all of my other points are valid and make a good argument. BUT once again, it doesnt matter because our discussion has no grounds to stand on. its like a hockey player and a gold player arguing whats better for their shot/swing.

 

[Guinness5.0]

Bro its not as simple as that. coz a stronger person does not mean much in bbing if he/she looks like shit. Prime example-greg kovacs, strong but looks like shit.
flex wheeler or better yet a huge man: Paul Dillet- lift like pussies, but look big and great.

But here you're getting inot the category of genetic freaks who use massive doses of drugs. It's not the best population to pull examples from. I try to think in terms of "normal" people (no such thing as normal I know, but non-freaks ).

Again its not as easy as that. what about olympic lifters that weigh 120lbs but keep lifting heavier and heavier.i know guys half my size that lift more than me and keep increasing the weight faster than me.

True but many of these guys have to work NOT to grow in order to stay in their weight class. Mass is made in the kitchen. Besides, this is what I meant about rep ranges being different. Working mostly in triples, doubles and singles will miostly improve the nueral aspects of strength (CNS coordination, motor unit recruitment, etc.). Myofibril hypertrophy (which is genaerally best stimulated at >4 reps) is still the most efficient way for the body to get stronger.

Also, here you get to the opposite end of the genetic freak spectrum: guys that are strong but not all that big. This is most definitely the exception rather than the rule.

You clearly show that your goals are not like bbers, and even though powerbuilding is not powerlifting, its a lot closer to power lifting than bbing. also by focusing on power and making that your priority, you are arguing from a pl's perspective more that a bbers. as a bber im telling you that that kind of training does not apply to me. as long as i look good on stage im fine. again Specificity- you train to be strong and look decent and i train to look good on a bbing stage.

The only difference is that I don't care to get "ripped" enough to get on stage, and that I give a shit how much weight I use (which I strongly think would help most BBers - monitoring strength increasing on core lifts in hypertrophy-oriented rep ranges is the surest way to know that progress is being made). Obviously one must eat enough for this strength to lead to hypertrophy.

I'm confident that the best way to look good is the best way to look good, whether it's taken to the extreme (BB show) or not (looking good naked )