Best Lat Excercises

[yourmomgoestocollege]

Front or behind the neck pull downs?

Close or Wide grip.

Seated rows?

I am trying to figure out what excercise gets you to develop the nice V the most effeciently. Any thoughts?

 

[needtogetaas]

behind the neck with a wide grip works grate fore me.

 

[dullboy]

gorilla grip pull-ups.


as many as you can do.

if you can do too many, then weight your legs.

 

[swordfish151]

wide grip pull ups (or pull downs), bent over rows, wide grip T-bar.

 

[njmuscleguy]

behind the neck lat pulldowns can cause injury pretty fast, especially if form is off and weight is too high.... I usually stick to front lat pulldowns, both wide grip and close grip.... also do reverse close grip pull downs.... throw in some chins, cable rows / bent over rows

 

[yourmomgoestocollege]

Thanks guys. I have been trying all of the above listed and have had some nice development, just wondering if anyone had any other exercises in mind. I didn't think so. I do not do enough wide grip pull ups. I am going to add those tonight though.

 

[doyouyahoo]

Some smith machine manufacturers claim that using a wider or closer grip is not necessarily better, it just decreases your range of motion. There is usually a sticker on the latpulldown machine that says that; and it makes sense.

 

[tzan]

I do not do enough wide grip pull ups. I am going to add those tonight though.

This is by far the best exercise for acheiving the V-shape. Simplify your back routine. A lot of those exercises listed above are the same movement. Here is what I have done for years and my back is one of my best muscles:

Deads
Weighted Wide Pullups
Weighted Narrow Pullups
BB Rows

Throw in some hypers at the end and you got yourself a simple, yet punishing back routine.

 

[LT3]

Bro for the vtaper try angle rows

 

[swordfish151]

This is by far the best exercise for acheiving the V-shape. Simplify your back routine. A lot of those exercises listed above are the same movement. Here is what I have done for years and my back is one of my best muscles:

Deads
Weighted Wide Pullups
Weighted Narrow Pullups
BB Rows

Throw in some hypers at the end and you got yourself a simple, yet punishing back routine.

Hypers in the same routine as Deads...OUCH!! I go heavy on deads..i couldnt imagine busting some hypers in the end...

 

[redbear]

This is by far the best exercise for acheiving the V-shape. Simplify your back routine. A lot of those exercises listed above are the same movement. Here is what I have done for years and my back is one of my best muscles:

Deads
Weighted Wide Pullups
Weighted Narrow Pullups
BB Rows

Throw in some hypers at the end and you got yourself a simple, yet punishing back routine.

Something i don`t ever see done but i`ve read in one of those magazines and since i started doing them very few guys have a back like mine.
Simple cable rows only with 2 individual hand grips on one cable.
the type of squeeze you get i find is not only better but also a more natural position with your hands, which in my oppinion allows for a better squeeze.

 

[slat1]

This is by far the best exercise for acheiving the V-shape. Simplify your back routine. A lot of those exercises listed above are the same movement. Here is what I have done for years and my back is one of my best muscles:

Deads
Weighted Wide Pullups
Weighted Narrow Pullups
BB Rows

Throw in some hypers at the end and you got yourself a simple, yet punishing back routine.

He nailed it. Wide grip pull ups (not downs) are the best for width. Deads area staple for your back. Narrow gets you the length and rows thicken it all up!

 

[boops]

This is by far the best exercise for acheiving the V-shape. Simplify your back routine. A lot of those exercises listed above are the same movement. Here is what I have done for years and my back is one of my best muscles:

Deads
Weighted Wide Pullups
Weighted Narrow Pullups
BB Rows

Throw in some hypers at the end and you got yourself a simple, yet punishing back routine.

nailed it all right there and in fact that looks like my backworkout exactly save for the fact i do deads on a day all their own.....start with weighted pull ups low reps heavy weight then onto thr rest of the exercises.....

 

[NickyE3]

I would stay away from behind the neck lat pull downs. My athletic surgeon told me it puts too much stress on shoulders (rotator cuff, labrum) and can also injure your neck.

I tend to go with wide grip pull downs and seated rows.

 

[dullboy]

Good Mornings are very helpful to dullboys back as well.

remember - the narrower your waist, the bigger everything becomes in proportion above it. it's all an illusion.

 

[AAP]

seated cable rows are the "squat" for your back.

wide grip chins/pulldowns are just robbing you because of their decrease in movement range.

rear pulldowns are awesome. and injury free if you turn backwards on the lat machine. injuries come from the bar (and your shoulders) having to travel down and then back to get the bar behind you. If you sit backwards, the bar is already behind you and all you have to do is just pull it down.

 

[dullboy]

rear pulldowns are awesome. and injury free if you turn backwards on the lat machine. injuries come from the bar (and your shoulders) having to travel down and then back to get the bar behind you. If you sit backwards, the bar is already behind you and all you have to do is just pull it down.

yes, yes, yes. you need to get as neutral as possible and this serves that purpose.

 

[LT3]

seated cable rows are the "squat" for your back.

wide grip chins/pulldowns are just robbing you because of their decrease in movement range.

rear pulldowns are awesome. and injury free if you turn backwards on the lat machine. injuries come from the bar (and your shoulders) having to travel down and then back to get the bar behind you. If you sit backwards, the bar is already behind you and all you have to do is just pull it down.

I agree. especially about the cable rows and the wide grip chins/pulldowns.

 

[cityhick]

Also another thing I do between my dead lifts are hypers. Its a bitch but after I got used to it I noticed my lower back getting a lot better. But bent over Lat rows. and seated rows are great concentrate on not using your bi's and sqeezing the shit outta your back

 

[LftHndPwrHouse]

T bar or BB rows...
wide grip pull downs
the best...wide grip pull ups

Behind the neck pulldowns will actually hit the rear delts first.

 

[newshipping]

arn't we all forgetting the good ol pullover machine ? my personal fav but none here in pattaya.

 

[powderguy]

The best excersises for thickness are rowing type excersises.

Seated rows, T-bar rows (great), dumbell rows.

The best excersises for width are lateral excersises.

Pull downs (front or back) (great), PUll ups (also great).



Hint: Whenever you do pull downs in front, DO NOT use so much weight that you need to lean back till you are in a laying position. This just turns them into rows.


PG

 

[jdevlin1985]

Deadlifts, no question!

 

[guards]

Moved

 

[Topside]

its all about range of motion, and don't forget about genetics.

 

[njmuscleguy]

The best excersises for thickness are rowing type excersises.

Seated rows, T-bar rows (great), dumbell rows.

The best excersises for width are lateral excersises.

Pull downs (front or back) (great), PUll ups (also great).



Hint: Whenever you do pull downs in front, DO NOT use so much weight that you need to lean back till you are in a laying position. This just turns them into rows.


PG

yah, I never understood why guys do that.... I learned that when doing a pull down, you keep your back only at a slight angle from the chair, sticking your chest out and pulling the bar down to the chest... I see these guys put on the entire stack of weights....pull down the bar and as they are pulling down their back approaches parallel to the chair.... I don't see how that gives any benefit

 

[Guinness5.0]

seated cable rows are the "squat" for your back.

How on earth could you compare seated cable rows to squats? They're not even in the same ballpark in terms of CNS stimulation, there is no balancing involved whatsoever, etc etc.

To the original poster, check out this link for a fantastic lat builder:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4697367&postcount=301

 

[musketeer]

How on earth could you compare seated cable rows to squats? They're not even in the same ballpark in terms of CNS stimulation, there is no balancing involved whatsoever, etc etc.

Some dumbass pro BBer probably got quoted as saying this in FLEX or something.

 

[AAP]

How on earth could you compare seated cable rows to squats? They're not even in the same ballpark in terms of CNS stimulation, there is no balancing involved whatsoever, etc etc.

To the original poster, check out this link for a fantastic lat builder:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4697367&postcount=301

CNS stimulation, balancing, etc.. etc.. has no bearing to my comparision. Hell, CNS stimulation and balancing has no coorelation to the actual POINT OF DOING THE EXERCISE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Squats = work the target muscle from top to bottom, including the entire secondary and stabilizing muscles.

Seated cable rows = ditto. Works the entire target muscle top to bottom. Lats, rhomboids, traps, teres min/maj, rear delts, heck you can even include forearms and abs in there.

 

[AAP]

Some dumbass pro BBer probably got quoted as saying this in FLEX or something.

And your contribution to this thread is.... ?

 

[Guinness5.0]

CNS stimulation, balancing, etc.. etc.. has no bearing to my comparision. Hell, CNS stimulation and balancing has no coorelation to the actual POINT OF DOING THE EXERCISE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Squats = work the target muscle from top to bottom, including the entire secondary and stabilizing muscles.

Seated cable rows = ditto. Works the entire target muscle top to bottom. Lats, rhomboids, traps, teres min/maj, rear delts, heck you can even include forearms and abs in there.

Balance is a fundamental element when considering the effectiveness and systemic load of exercises. Squats work the legs (calves included), back (erectors, traps, etc), shoulders, abs, etc. all while taking balance/stabilization into the equation.

Seated cable rows only work the back. OTOH, something like BB rows in the link I provided involve the legs to a fairly significant degree, while also forcing the body to adjust to dynamic changes (each rep is de-weighted on the floor, then accelerated through the concentric portion of its ROM). This is far more stimulative sytemically and would be more warranted as a "squat for the back" comparison. Seated cable rows would equate more with something like leg press where balance is a non-factor.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is more to an exercise and it's effectiveness than making the muscles contract. And this is not personal to me, just discussion. Didn't mean to be a prick but I think you're wrong on this point so I'm throwing in my $.02. Nothing more.

 

[LT3]

Balance is a fundamental element when considering the effectiveness and systemic load of exercises. Squats work the legs (calves included), back (erectors, traps, etc), shoulders, abs, etc. all while taking balance/stabilization into the equation.

Seated cable rows only work the back. OTOH, something like BB rows in the link I provided involve the legs to a fairly significant degree, while also forcing the body to adjust to dynamic changes (each rep is de-weighted on the floor, then accelerated through the concentric portion of its ROM). This is far more stimulative sytemically and would be more warranted as a "squat for the back" comparison. Seated cable rows would equate more with something like leg press where balance is a non-factor.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is more to an exercise and it's effectiveness than making the muscles contract. And this is not personal to me, just discussion. Didn't mean to be a prick but I think you're wrong on this point so I'm throwing in my $.02. Nothing more.

bro youre looking at this from a different view that we are. if you wanna built muscle for a visual purpuse then clable rows are the best way. if you wanna be a powerlifter then deads are the best way. but how you can say that cable rows arnt the squat for back is beyond me. like AAP said similar to squats utilizing a great amount of muscles, cables too utilize a huge number of muscles. can you say the same thing for bb rows. i cant. the only thing that i get from bb rows are lats. but if i do just cable rows, ill get: traps, rhomboids, teres. lower back, lats, abs, rear delts, and even bis and especially forearms. another thing is that if i was restricted for time or equipment and i did 12 sets of bb rows, i wouldnt get a whole back work out, but if i did 12 sets of cable rows, every muscle in my back would be aching. and another thing you mentioned is bb rows using legs as if it is a good thing. the whole point is bbing is to isolate the muscle. yes it is good to use compound movements but only to a degree, you cannot sculpt the body without doing some exercises that isolate the muscles. but like you said this is only my opinion and it differs for everyone. to me balancing doesnt come into the equation. why should it, i dont get judged on balancing when i go on stage, i get judged on the package that i present and if cable rows help me bring that package then thats what i will continue to do.on the other hand a powerlifter does need to throw balance in the equation so thats why all those compound movements are crucial and unreplacable for them.

 

[vin01]

I don't want to get involved here, but I am interested in how cable rows build more muscle (involve more groups) then BB rows? I have been doing strictly bb rows for the past few months and my lats have gotten larger, as well as my traps. However, this just may be attributed to my w/o in general.

I'd like to see why a cable row involves more muscles?

Also, what the hell is a gorilla grip?

 

[musketeer]

And your contribution to this thread is.... ?

I'm saying that you can get a hell of a lot of crap from the popular magazies. Pros are always quoted as saying ignorant things about training, and you never know whether it's them or just the editor.

"seated cable rows are the "squat" for your back" sounds just like something that you would typically read. Like someone calling the pullover the upper-body squat, or the Zottman curl: Squats for your bi's...

ANYWAY

BB rows are FAR superior to cable rows for building lats or pretty much anything else in the back. 'Balancing' the weight is exactly why it's so much better than the cable row for getting all of those little cookie cutter muscles to grow. Bent rows create depth and thickness because you are using the entire body to power much more weight up under much more stressfull conditions. The only good thing about the cable row is that in contest prep you can save energy as you are low on calories.

By your own rationel, the squat for the legs would be the leg extension superset with the leg curl! The way you talk about 'sculpting' and 'isolating' shows that you proably should read the 5x5 main thread and open your mind a little.

If I were to call any exercise a squat for the back (which I wouldn't) then it would be the POWERCLEAN.

I realise that you don't get my ironic sense of humor in my first post, but I assure you I love BBing and respect many of the guys in the industry.
I hope that this contribution makes more sense, I know that you tend to hang on the anabolic board but I post a whole shitheap of good info on here.

 

[AAP]

I'm saying that you can get a hell of a lot of crap from the popular magazies. Pros are always quoted as saying ignorant things about training, and you never know whether it's them or just the editor.

"seated cable rows are the "squat" for your back" sounds just like something that you would typically read. Like someone calling the pullover the upper-body squat, or the Zottman curl: Squats for your bi's...

ANYWAY

BB rows are FAR superior to cable rows for building lats or pretty much anything else in the back. 'Balancing' the weight is exactly why it's so much better than the cable row for getting all of those little cookie cutter muscles to grow. Bent rows create depth and thickness because you are using the entire body to power much more weight up under much more stressfull conditions. The only good thing about the cable row is that in contest prep you can save energy as you are low on calories.

By your own rationel, the squat for the legs would be the leg extension superset with the leg curl! The way you talk about 'sculpting' and 'isolating' shows that you proably should read the 5x5 main thread and open your mind a little.

If I were to call any exercise a squat for the back (which I wouldn't) then it would be the POWERCLEAN.

I realise that you don't get my ironic sense of humor in my first post, but I assure you I love BBing and respect many of the guys in the industry.
I hope that this contribution makes more sense, I know that you tend to hang on the anabolic board but I post a whole shitheap of good info on here.

Try doing BB rows with a narrow grip and see how effective that is.

Ability to cheat with bodyweight BBrow > cable rows
Blood rushing to your head BBrow > cable rows
Higher risk for lower back injury BBrow > cable rows
Shorter range of movement BBrow > cable rows
Keeping elbows out from the body (lessening the movement) BBrow > cable rows

And the 5x5 routine does nothing for me. Been there, tried that, discarded it. If someone gets growth from it, more power to them. I have never seen anyone, including quite a few pros - Baker, Darrem, Haney, Freeman, Jones, Jackson, and Cotrell - who I have trained with train with the 5x5 system. It is basically the same type of training all the way. Heavy weight, medium volume.

 

[LT3]

Try doing BB rows with a narrow grip and see how effective that is.

Ability to cheat with bodyweight BBrow > cable rows
Blood rushing to your head BBrow > cable rows
Higher risk for lower back injury BBrow > cable rows
Shorter range of movement BBrow > cable rows
Keeping elbows out from the body (lessening the movement) BBrow > cable rows

And the 5x5 routine does nothing for me. Been there, tried that, discarded it. If someone gets growth from it, more power to them. I have never seen anyone, including quite a few pros - Baker, Darrem, Haney, Freeman, Jones, Jackson, and Cotrell - who I have trained with train with the 5x5 system. It is basically the same type of training all the way. Heavy weight, medium volume.

Bro i agreee with all points. but its clear that these guys dont want to accept the fact that a cable exercise is better than a freeweight exercise. so no point arguing. if you guys grow off of bb rows then keep doing them. for me they nothing but tire out my bis fore arms and lower back. when i do cable rows, i get a full back work out.

 

[musketeer]

Try doing BB rows with a narrow grip and see how effective that is.

You can go as narrow as you like with a curl grip but why would you want to?
A cable row is also a little dodgy wit ha wider grip.

Ability to cheat with bodyweight BBrow > cable rows

Learn how to row correcty cheating isn't all bad, plenty of people pully row badly.

Blood rushing to your head BBrow > cable rows

Less chance of blood rushing to the head if you are a home in your armchair, but still avalid point.

Higher risk for lower back injury BBrow > cable rows

True, but if you have a weak lower back from just doing cable stuff...

Shorter range of movement BBrow > cable rows

Full ROM is not terribly important to developing a bodypart - otherwise pullovers and that natilus machine where you push down your elbows would be the best developers and cable flyes would build a huge chest.

Keeping elbows out from the body (lessening the movement) BBrow > cable rows

This basically means that more stess is bourne by the upper back as some is taken from the lats. Not a problem - but you are right, this thread is about LATS.

I'm not supprised that the pros don't use the 5x5 because it's not as flashy or fun as a conventional 5 day split. When people are taking over a gram of Test a week and a handfull of orals every day, all they need to do is a mediocre workout in order to grow. Thats why a lot of pros seem to say that it's all 90% diet.

I'm exhausted and ready for bed, but I'll post up tomorrow because this is a decent tread.

 

[enigma4dub]

Bro i agreee with all points. but its clear that these guys dont want to accept the fact that a cable exercise is better than a freeweight exercise. so no point arguing. if you guys grow off of bb rows then keep doing them. for me they nothing but tire out my bis fore arms and lower back. when i do cable rows, i get a full back work out.

Obviously your idea of a good workout is based around the pump you get from doing high volume training. Most of us here accept the fact that pump and muscle soreness have no bearing on a good workout. That "feel" you get from doing cable rows is nothing more than a nuance of that muscle. The "feel" is not the same in bb rows because you are exerting yourself too much to be concerned with such unimportant things.
On another note bb rows do work your bis an lower back extremely well.....they'e suppoused to. My back only truly began developing after doing dynamic 90 degree rows from
the floor. and i think it would be easy to assume that if your back is not developing from bb rows, then you are quite simply doing the excercise wrong.

 

[LT3]

Obviously your idea of a good workout is based around the pump you get from doing high volume training. Most of us here accept the fact that pump and muscle soreness have no bearing on a good workout. That "feel" you get from doing cable rows is nothing more than a nuance of that muscle. The "feel" is not the same in bb rows because you are exerting yourself too much to be concerned with such unimportant things.
On another note bb rows do work your bis an lower back extremely well.....they'e suppoused to. My back only truly began developing after doing dynamic 90 degree rows from
the floor. and i think it would be easy to assume that if your back is not developing from bb rows, then you are quite simply doing the excercise wrong.

LOL. hey out of my whole physique my back is probably the one that stands out the most. but thats all an illusion coz according to you, im not getting a work out at all. bro what you said is soooo ridiculous i dont even have the energy to discuss it. like i said if bb rows are doing it for you, then keep doing them big man. cable rows do it for me. end of discussion.

 

[enigma4dub]

i never said you werent getting a good workout. i merely stated that you were doing the obviously inferior excercise, and there really is no sense in arguing that. and as good as your back development is it would undoubtedly be better with bb rows. with this thought process deads should probably be done on a smith machine and pull downs should replace pull ups

 

[LT3]

i never said you werent getting a good workout.

You didnt?

Most of us here accept the fact that pump and muscle soreness have no bearing on a good workout.

i merely stated that you were doing the obviously inferior excercise, and there really is no sense in arguing that.

How is there no sense in arguing that? you think its inferior, i think its superior, we can argue our points. theres no point to the discussion but we can argue them.

and as good as your back development is it would undoubtedly be better with bb rows.

By saying this, youre assuming that i never did bb rows. i did and they just fatigued me. the next day i would feel nothing and be in good shape, no soreness. so i see no point in doing them.

with this thought process deads should probably be done on a smith machine and pull downs should replace pull ups

bro, youre assuming that there is such a thing as an inferior exercise. theres not, theres what works for you and what doesnt. deads dont do much for me, pull ups did a good job in giving me lat development, but now they dont do much. pull downs on the other hand are awsome, coz i can go really heavy and concentrate on my back.

Obviously your idea of a good workout is based around the pump you get from doing high volume training.

For your info bro, i only do heavy lifts with low volume. so dont assume the latter statement.

Most of us here accept the fact that pump and muscle soreness have no bearing on a good workout.

WHAAAT!? thats exactly what determines a good work out, if you feel the pump in the gym and if you are sore the next day.

The "feel" is not the same in bb rows because you are exerting yourself too much to be concerned with such unimportant things.

Thats fatigue, meaning you wore yourself out toooo early.

 

[silver_shadow]

i favour t bar and cable rows/pull downs for the lats.

 

[Guinness5.0]

WHAAAT!? thats exactly what determines a good work out, if you feel the pump in the gym and if you are sore the next day.
.

I am not saying this to sound like a dick, but the pump and soreness are NOT indicators of a successful workout. Soreness (DOMS) generally means that you are not conditioned for the amount of work you are performing. IMHO most people who have been lifting for a good while and still get sore are those that subscribe to the "train each muscle group 1x/week or you'll overtrain" camp. In this case soreness is likely due to the de-training effect of allowing too much time to elapse b/t workouts, then bombarding these muscles with a rigorous session (again, this is my experience -- not saying it's conclusive).

I noticed for myself that once I started to train lifts rather than body parts, soreness was basically a memory. On my heaviest of workouts I'd definitely know that I'd been to the gym the day before but I haven't experienced the type of stiffness and discomfort that I used to associate with a good workout.

And I support Musketeer's suggestion that you guys check out Madcow's 5x5 thead -- NOT NECESARILLY for the program itself, but b/c he's got a boatload of training info (from some highly respected sources) that is quite interesting to say the least. Basically, if the majority of your training info comes from magazines and "gym science" , this will be some fascinating stuff.

Better yet, check out his Geocities website:

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/

 

[LT3]

Bro, if you are training your lifts then you are not training like a bber trains. thats how a powerlifter trains. to improve lifts, not muscle size, definition etc . if you are no longer sore than you are ignoring a very important part of lifting: the overload process, if you are not overloading the muscle you are not making progress.

Soreness (DOMS) generally means that you are not conditioned for the amount of work you are performing.

yes thats what you should do, your body gets conditioned for a type of session then you intensify the session so you teach your body to adapt to an even more intense session.

IMHO most people who have been lifting for a good while and still get sore are those that subscribe to the "train each muscle group 1x/week or you'll overtrain" camp. In this case soreness is likely due to the de-training effect of allowing too much time to elapse b/t workouts, then bombarding these muscles with a rigorous session

Well i cant train the muscle more than once a week, unless its abs or calves because im too sore, according to you this is because my muscles get "de-trained" then i "bombard them". this is exactly how you grow. if you are working out and not feeling the effect then you are not growing.

again, this is my experience -- not saying it's conclusive

Right so when i say that i dont agree with you, then accept it, just as i accept your view. but dont say that my way of working out, which is the majority, is wrong or inferior.

I noticed for myself that once I started to train lifts rather than body parts, soreness was basically a memory. On my heaviest of workouts I'd definitely know that I'd been to the gym the day before but I haven't experienced the type of stiffness and discomfort that I used to associate with a good workout.

Well then bro you're training as if you were preparing for a powerlifting competition, not bbing.

Basically, if the majority of your training info comes from magazines and "gym science" , this will be some fascinating stuff.

No my info comes from university. so basically you are looking at training from a different perspective than i am. i train like a bber, i dont care what i lift, how much or what exercise, as long as my muscles look good. you care about improving your lifts and dismiss all other exercises as "inferior". listen bro i believe in specificity, i train specifically to look good on stage, you train specifically to lift more. we have different goals. thats fine. But there is NO Way that you can say my type of training is not right, it might not be right for you but its perfect for me thats how i grow.

 

[Guinness5.0]

LT3-

First and foremost, I am not trying to be argumentative. I never once said your way of training was inferior. I'm stating that there is more to lifting/BBing than pump, soreness, isolation, etc. This is discussion to me, and serves to further enhance my understanding of how the body works. I feel no need to insult anyone or make myself out to be any kind of authority on this subject.

That said, I think that too often people seek to create a huge divide b/t BBing and other strength sports (PL, Oly lifting, etc.). Clearly there are differences, but building muscle is building muscle. A bigger muscle is a stronger muscle (meaning if person A gets bigger, person A gets stronger, not that if person A is bigger than person B that person A is stronger than B). Sure, PL's have minimal concern for their appearance, but if you take a look at some of the Westside guys or Oly guys, they have incredible physiques that would do quite well on a BB stage if they took the effort the shed bodyfat. We don't need to reinvent the wheel for the sake of aesthetics - the time tested methods of putting more weight on the bar over a period will add muscle to anyone. Sure, rep ranges are different at times, but the really foundational stuff is (or should be) similar.

Speaking from experience, in the last 6+ months I have used almost ZERO isolation exercises and no machines other than pulldowns when I couldn't do enough pullups to achieve my desired rep range, and have actually improved many of my muscles that are typically thought of as needy of isolation. Specifically, my rear delts have vastly improved from performing the rows I linked to in my original post in this thread.

And BTW, you seem to think that I'm a PL or something. Well, I don't really fit a category. I wanna look decent and be strong, but I have no competive aspirations. So call that what you want .

EDIT: And I'm not ignoring overload at all - I'm simply not defining it by how sore I get (subjective) but rather by how much more work (repsxweight - objective) that I perform. Here are the last three training cycles I've completed, and a link to my current cycle.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=399754
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=413313
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=430297
Current:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=442968


You may notice that in the second link I managed to overwork myself pretty well But I learned a bit about my tolerance for workload and how it is possible to overwork a specific area of the body while keeping systemic fatigue in check.

 

[LT3]

you seem to think that I'm a PL or something. Well, I don't really fit a category.

????

my goals and interests aren't really bodybuilding per se. I guess "powerbuilding" would be a good way to descride what I'm in to

I never once said your way of training was inferior.

?????

you were doing the obviously inferior excercise

Clearly there are differences, but building muscle is building muscle. A bigger muscle is a stronger muscle

Bro its not as simple as that. coz a stronger person does not mean much in bbing if he/she looks like shit. Prime example-greg kovacs, strong but looks like shit.
flex wheeler or better yet a huge man: Paul Dillet- lift like pussies, but look big and great.

We don't need to reinvent the wheel for the sake of aesthetics - the time tested methods of putting more weight on the bar over a period will add muscle to anyone.

Again its not as easy as that. what about olympic lifters that weigh 120lbs but keep lifting heavier and heavier.i know guys half my size that lift more than me and keep increasing the weight faster than me.

And by saying this:

my goals and interests aren't really bodybuilding per se. I guess "powerbuilding" would be a good way to descride what I'm in to

You clearly show that your goals are not like bbers, and even though powerbuilding is not powerlifting, its a lot closer to power lifting than bbing. also by focusing on power and making that your priority, you are arguing from a pl's perspective more that a bbers. as a bber im telling you that that kind of training does not apply to me. as long as i look good on stage im fine. again Specificity- you train to be strong and look decent and i train to look good on a bbing stage.

 

[Guinness5.0]

This is delving into pointless bickering, especially since there's a quote in your last post that isn't even mine ("you were doing the obviously inferior exercise"). If you can't respond with anything but question marks I tend to think you don't know enough on the subject to form a valid retort.

Keep it accurate and civil and we can learn something.

 

[muscelove]

I know this discussion has changed from what builds lat to bbing vs. p.lifting but I would like to add that I find bb rows to be a staple of my back workout. Wide grip chins aswell. Whats the feeling on pullups for back development?

 

[LT3]

This is delving into pointless bickering, especially since there's a quote in your last post that isn't even mine ("you were doing the obviously inferior exercise"). If you can't respond with anything but question marks I tend to think you don't know enough on the subject to form a valid retort.

Keep it accurate and civil and we can learn something.

My Bad, i didnt realise that wasnt you. anyway back to the topic at hand. i dont understand how you can say that we can learn something. there is nothing to learn here, all thats going on is, my way is better than yours-no mine is better. all im saying is we cannot compare the two training methods for the simple reason that out goals are different, thus our approaches are different. thats all there is to it. you'll never agree with my approach and i wont agree with yours. and as far as my last post goes, yes i made a mistake in the first quote but all of my other points are valid and make a good argument. BUT once again, it doesnt matter because our discussion has no grounds to stand on. its like a hockey player and a gold player arguing whats better for their shot/swing.

 

[Guinness5.0]

Bro its not as simple as that. coz a stronger person does not mean much in bbing if he/she looks like shit. Prime example-greg kovacs, strong but looks like shit.
flex wheeler or better yet a huge man: Paul Dillet- lift like pussies, but look big and great.

But here you're getting inot the category of genetic freaks who use massive doses of drugs. It's not the best population to pull examples from. I try to think in terms of "normal" people (no such thing as normal I know, but non-freaks ).

Again its not as easy as that. what about olympic lifters that weigh 120lbs but keep lifting heavier and heavier.i know guys half my size that lift more than me and keep increasing the weight faster than me.

True but many of these guys have to work NOT to grow in order to stay in their weight class. Mass is made in the kitchen. Besides, this is what I meant about rep ranges being different. Working mostly in triples, doubles and singles will miostly improve the nueral aspects of strength (CNS coordination, motor unit recruitment, etc.). Myofibril hypertrophy (which is genaerally best stimulated at >4 reps) is still the most efficient way for the body to get stronger.

Also, here you get to the opposite end of the genetic freak spectrum: guys that are strong but not all that big. This is most definitely the exception rather than the rule.

You clearly show that your goals are not like bbers, and even though powerbuilding is not powerlifting, its a lot closer to power lifting than bbing. also by focusing on power and making that your priority, you are arguing from a pl's perspective more that a bbers. as a bber im telling you that that kind of training does not apply to me. as long as i look good on stage im fine. again Specificity- you train to be strong and look decent and i train to look good on a bbing stage.

The only difference is that I don't care to get "ripped" enough to get on stage, and that I give a shit how much weight I use (which I strongly think would help most BBers - monitoring strength increasing on core lifts in hypertrophy-oriented rep ranges is the surest way to know that progress is being made). Obviously one must eat enough for this strength to lead to hypertrophy.

I'm confident that the best way to look good is the best way to look good, whether it's taken to the extreme (BB show) or not (looking good naked )

 

[Guinness5.0]

I know this discussion has changed from what builds lat to bbing vs. p.lifting but I would like to add that I find bb rows to be a staple of my back workout. Wide grip chins aswell. Whats the feeling on pullups for back development?

I think pullups/cins are fantastic, especially once you can start adding weight to 'em.

 

[Guinness5.0]

i dont understand how you can say that we can learn something. there is nothing to learn here, all thats going on is, my way is better than yours-no mine is better. .

you haven't really said much specifically, just that pump/soreness are indicators of a good workout and that overload is defined by soreness. And that PL?OL have almost nothing in common with BBing.

What does good training look like in your opinion?

 

[musketeer]

This thread is getting good! (well done for staying civil guys)

A year or so a go I would have been with LT3 and AAP, saying that pump, soreness and isolation/failure are key (at least I think that's the jist of what's been said) - Since I used to train bodyparts once a week and made what I believed were good gains from it. It was only when I discovered that olympic weightlifters trained up to 3x a day or 20x a week (!!!) that I began getting interested in the 5x5. The oly guys were all being tested 3 or more time a year, so any drug use had to be kept small and therefore would be condsiered a synergist as opposed to the main cause of strength gain. They have to come in at the right weight class, and actually RESTRICTED their diets in order to NOT gain weight in the offseason. Here I was stuffing myself with food, hiting each muscle as hard as I could once a week and being sore for 3-4 days for each bodypart, (which meant something was killing me all of the time) and not looking or feeling or being anywhere near as strong as the guys who were training 'wrong' in my book. If the oly lifters eat BIG and added a few more exercises to their routines, they would be huge great bodybuilders with awesome stregth to boot - with very little steroid use.

 

[Protobuilder]

What a fun thread! You can usually tell who the truly knowledgeable people are b/c they are the least likely to be idealogues about their training methods. The more you learn, the more you come to realize that diff't programs work for diff't people and although human bodies must all follow the same gen'l laws, there may be multiple methods, all of which work, and all of which will get you to your goal.

The 5x5 is great but even madcow and Glenn have said it's just one way to grow and that it's great (a) for packing on mass on beginners & intermediates, and (2) for it's value in teaching people how to design/adjust programs in general (e.g., it's a great teaching tool b/c most people have crappy knowledge from BB'ing mags, etc.). I think lots of trad'l bodybuilding folks are following supercompensation splits that are, obviously, working for them. But they want that style of work and that style of growth. They may specifically avoid a compound exercise b/c it's too taxing and they prefer to use more isolation-type exercises to fully exhaust each specific muscle. If it's working for them, that's awesome. And I'd say it does work for quite a few people. Here's the thing -- you can continue following the "5x5" principle of adding weight to the bar (i.e., progression) AND still follow an old-school BB'r split. There are plenty of valid reasons for NOT sticking to a strict 5x5 program and I'd say this is especially true for the pure bodybuilders among us who truly care only about aesthetics. But if you're a 160 pound guy who wants to get on stage, you could probably gain a lot of mass in general from a 5x5. However, if you're already nearing that professional level, you may not want the 5x5, heavy compounds, over and over style.

My point is that the 5x5 is fantastic for lots of people, obviously, but it's still just another training style and although it's principles are sound, just b/c you're doing iso/hypertrophy work doesn't mean you're automatically IGNORING the gen'l principles that come out of the 5x5.

FWIW -- I like BB rows and chins. LoL But I'm pretty scrawny so can't say that they are the only way to get big.

 

[musketeer]

Oh yeah,

out of respect to my fellow ef members, I tried 4 sets of cable rows at the end of my routine today and they really blasted my lats. Theyt got me right up in the armpits and at the base of the lat down by the waist. At the same time I got a pump going on in my rhomboids area, and was able to arch my lower back to fully open the lats which means my errectors got a tonic workout too.

 

[Guinness5.0]

And to reiterate, I only got my panties in a bunch b/c I thought comparing a squat to a cable row was way out of place. i still do but I didn't call them useless .

 

[vin01]

Question on cable rows: Sometimes I like to use 2 seperate handles for a better squeeze. Do you guys insist on leaning forward and getting a good stretch? Is that necessary, or shouly my primary focus be squeezing my lats as I contract?

BTW, I am a lover of both rowing types.

Also, can somebody please answer my question??
What is a gorilla grip??????

 

[musketeer]

Monkey grip uses no thumbs - same thing?

 

[muscelove]

When there is a mention of cable rows, what handle is used. Is it the handle that is shaped like a wedge in which your hands face each other about 2 inches apart????

 

[musketeer]

IF you are gonna do cable rows:

The best cable row hand placing is probably the one where tour hand are about 20 inches appart. This seems to really allow a full contraction where the hands are pulled all of the way to the sternum. A close grip may encourage the lats to stretch a little more.

 

[kimchee411]

BB rows
wide-grip front lat pulldowns (i do close grip to mix it up, but prefer wide)
DB rows

I don't do deads b/c I have a gimpy lower back, but do they even work the lats? i thought they're a low back exercise.

 

[musketeer]

Do some 500lbs deadlifts and see how well they smack those bitch~lats!

 

[silver_shadow]

BB rows
wide-grip front lat pulldowns (i do close grip to mix it up, but prefer wide)
DB rows

I don't do deads b/c I have a gimpy lower back, but do they even work the lats? i thought they're a low back exercise.

yep they do work the lats... they also work the hamstrings mostly. if u've been trying to use ur lower back for it, that isn't really a good thing. another thing... strengthen ur abs and see how much more u can lift for deads.

 

[coldblue1955]

Front or behind the neck pull downs?

Close or Wide grip.

Seated rows?

I am trying to figure out what excercise gets you to develop the nice V the most effeciently. Any thoughts?

T-bar rolls are cool with me! But now i'm doing lots of bent over dumbell rows!