bent over rows...why jerk?

[Citruscide]

Sorry to drag this one out...but I am more confused than ever now!

You're saying the bar is placed LOWER on the back in a PL squat vs. a BB squat? How low? How would that change or make a difference? I am having a really hard time trying to visualize this one <<Nonerz opens her "Strength Training Anatomy" book>>

Okay, so it shows two options here...

1/ On the trapezius
2/ On the trapezius and deltoids posterior part, as in the type of squat powerlifters do in competition

I'm thinking that you place the bar higher or lower on the traps...is that right?

Unfortunately I don't have any pictures handy, I do have them in a training manuel sitting right in front of me though.

The BB Squat has th bar placed high on the traps whereas the PL squat would have the bar placed lower, say, going across the back of your rear delts and upper back. Also, there is more of a sheer on the PL Squat, meaning, you would tend to LEAN forward more... creating a 90 degree angle with your legs.

These are two types of squats... and they are textbook. It doesn't make them the way everyone will do them.

C-ditty

 

[spatts]

I don't think bar placement has anything to do with it.

I see PLers carry it high, I see them carry it low. The decision is based on biomechanics. The longer the lever the lower you carry the weight to keep it over your center of gravity. It also depends on the development and anatomy of a person's upper back.

 

[Liftbig]

I don't think bar placement has anything to do with it.

I see PLers carry it high, I see them carry it low. The decision is based on biomechanics. The longer the lever the lower you carry the weight to keep it over your center of gravity. It also depends on the development and anatomy of a person's upper back.

bingo bango!

i carry the bar right on my rear delts, any higher and i get forward too much, any lower and my shoulders will rip off, and i get out of the groove. my buddy though carrys the bar higher and it works well for him.

 

[Nonerz]

Also, there is more of a sheer on the PL Squat, meaning, you would tend to LEAN forward more... creating a 90 degree angle with your legs.

You mean a 90 degree angle at the hip? I first thought you meant at the knees, which didn't make sense to me.

I tend to think that bar placement (higher, lower) is more of a personal choice--what feels good for you, rather than a critical aspect of the lift itself.

 

[Liftbig]

You mean a 90 degree angle at the hip? I first thought you meant at the knees, which didn't make sense to me.

I tend to think that bar placement (higher, lower) is more of a personal choice--what feels good for you, rather than a critical aspect of the lift itself.

its a personal choice unless it affects your lift, imo. if i can carry the bar a different way and lift more weight, i will. it becomes more critical in powerlifting, when the #1 goal is poundage moved.

 

[Citruscide]

Liftbig said it... there are the set styles... PL and BB -- everyone has a variation of WHERE they carry the bar...

yes, Norenz... 90 degree at the KNEES. with the bar lower on the back, it will create more sheer (which means angle) in the back... you will appear to be leaning over more (or as spatts said, creating more of a lever) -- allowing you to go down as if you are sitting down on a chair.

But like I said. These are just the "manuel" and "textbook" definitions of the lifts. The PL lift is really more for a competitive PLer... with that sheer you can be able to squat more poundage, and in a PL meet that is the key thing (correct me if I'm wrong Spatts?).

Norenz -- you are also correct as personal choice on bar placement. LOL -- the original point of my statement is that people will do BB Squat or PL Squat... and neither one is WRONG -- it's all a matter of preference... if you read back a few pages to where I first mentioned it.

Sure, PL Squat puts more stress on the lumbar spine than the knees... and the BB squat does the opposite. -- are either incorrect? no. Just different ways to get to a goal.

C-ditty

 

[spatts]

c-ditty, I don't think bar placement and shearing force go hand in hand. I probably carry the bar low by your standards, but I squat upright with a tight arch to avoid shearing force and encourage the compressive force that my spine is designed to take.

I don't think the q-angle (ankle/hip/knee) has anything to do with back position either. Whether in a 1/4 squat or ass to the floor, my torso is always at the same "SAFE" angle.

Yes, putting up the weight is the name of the game. Here's my guess tho. A squat *I* would call incorrect, where the knees deliberately come way forward, is not a BB squat; it's just an unsafe squat that happens to be peformed mostly by BBers because if a PLer did it, they'd have a darn short career. Most BBers will argue that it must be safe because they're not injured yet. This is true, and likely because a BBer probably isn't 1RM'ing. If I was doing 60-80% of my 1 rep max I could do them wrong and hit my quads all day long for reps, and never have bad knees too.

When I say wrong, I mean compromising form/safety to target a muscle or reach a goal.

IMO, there is a right and wrong way. Some people just happen to have success with the wrong way.

On a similar note, when was the last time you saw a powerlifter with small or underdeveloped quads?

 

[Nonerz]

Norenz -- you are also correct as personal choice on bar placement. LOL -- the original point of my statement is that people will do BB Squat or PL Squat... and neither one is WRONG -- it's all a matter of preference... if you read back a few pages to where I first mentioned it.



C-ditty

Hey C -- I didn't say either one was WRONG...just trying to get a picture in my mind of how lowering the bar on your back would make a difference and WHERE the angle on your legs you were reffering to was (hip/knees, etc.). I got your point of personal preference the first time you mentioned it.

Spatts -- another pesky question from me...is it a "legal" lift if your knees are 90 degrees? Somehow I was thinking it should be less than that.

 

[spatts]

The q-angle has to be 90 degrees in most PL comps. In the USAPL it says parallel, but then their standards are actually much lower. Basically when the back of the knee and top of the hip are 90 degrees, you are parallel. Is that what you're asking?

 

[Citruscide]

This article goes into the various aspects of a PL squat ... such as bar position... so you can get a better handle of what I'm talking about. Bar Position and more explination


Frederick C. Hatfield, Ph.D., MSS, lays out the various myths of squatting... in his article, there is a chart that gives the basic run-down -- in this chart you will see the "knees at 90 degrees" and in the article you will see a further explination of squatting (as well as other leg strengthening exercises).

Here is an excerpt of the chart --
TECHNIQUE -- Powerlifting Squats

COMMENTS -- wide, intermediate or narrow stance – hip angle acute and knees near 90 degrees place stress on gluteals and hamstrings

USES -- ONLY for Powerlifting Competition (too stressful on the low back for other uses)

TECHNIQUE --- Olympic Squats
COMMENTS --- also called "High Bar Squats" or "Bodybuilding Squats" – hip angle near 90 degrees and knee angle acute place stress on quads
USES -- ONLY for bodybuilding training (too stressful on the knees for other uses)

Here is a link to the actual article itself -- The article

IAWA Rules for a Squat Lift -- Knee angle doesn't seem to be a huge rule concern here... As the PL must get to just around a paraell position. With the bar placement on lower on the back, the sheer of the PL back will be greater, causing them to have a 90 degree bend in their legs... in contrast to the acute angle of a BB Squat.

"The bar will be taken from the support stands and fixed across the shoulders at the base of the neck, no more than 3 cm below the top of the anterior deltoids. The feet must be parallel and in a straight line. Both hands must grip the bar and must be within the inside collars. The hands may touch the collars, but not be beyond them. Once the lifter has established foot and hand spacing, he/she will be given the command to squat. After such command, any movement of feet or hands is a disqualification. The lifter must lower his/her body during the lift to a depth in which the articulation of the hip joint is below the articulation of the knee. The lifter will recover (stand) without command. The lift ends on command when the lifter is fully recovered with legs straight and body erect. The lifter may be assisted back to the support stands after the command. "

Here are a bunch of videos -- although many of them tend to CUT out to the face of the lifter mid lift... you can see the bar placement and the SHEER on the back... as well as how that sheer causes one to sit down in the squat position.
Powerlifting Squats

I can probably go to the gym and show you these various forms... although, I'll have to do it with a cambered bar... as I can't really hold on to a straight bar for squats anymore... If all this information doesn't do it for you... you should have your trainer break out his ISSA training manuel that he got his certification in and have him show you the difference -- Lesson 11, page 31.

C-Man... feeling like the Nelson Montana of the training forum... lol -- wait, I actually backed up what I'm saying... ok, maybe I'm like... the Huck Fina of the training forum? one can only dream.

C-ditty