bench thoughts

[DOM]

Just a couple of things on my mind lately--

1. How long does a max attempt usually take? I get the feeling most people's max attempts are about 3-5 seconds. Mine are closer to 10 seconds. What does this mean about my bench, and how do I fix it?

2. Floor press carryover. I know everybody hates the carryover questions because it varies so much from lifter to lifter. But my floor press is a real mystery to me. Last time I floor pressed I got 315 and at that time my max bench was 295, done two weeks before. Other people who floor press in the 300-350 range seem to bench about 400-450. DTate would say I have no leg drive -- but I definitely know what leg drive is and I definitely use it. So then I think, OK floor presses work the bottom of the bench so maybe my bench is exceptionally strong at the bottom. But I fail all my benches at about 2-3 inches from the chest -- so that's not it either. So do you guys think I should cut floor press out of my training since I can floor press more than I can bench? Or should I focus on it since it works the bottom half of the bench?
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Thanks, Dom

 

[spatts]

What do you currently do to work on your speed? Any AR band chain work, or straight weight speed work?

That's really wild about your floor press. Mine has been stuck at 177 for MONTHS AND MONTHS, yet my bench goes up. I concluded that my floor press is weak because I'm still in the late stages of rehabbing my rotator cuffs, and for a long time I couldn't even train shoulders. Also, the bench shirt makes up for this a little. Perhaps your triceps are the weak point? What's your raw 2 board max? Perhaps lats and speed are issues?

 

[DOM]

Thanks for the response spatts...

My bench routine is pretty much standard westside. For speed day I've been doing 9x3 @ 115+doubled minis. If anything, the amount of time that a max attempt takes me has increased since I have started doing westside style with speed work. It's definitely weird. I think once a rep took me over fifteen seconds to do. Never stops moving, just goes ridiculously slow -- I have to brief my spotters before max attempts.

My 2-board max at the time was 295, same as my raw bench max -- no surprise since 2 boards is right in the area of my sticking point. As for triceps, they're always the weak point no matter what your sticking point is!! I definitely don't neglect them.

I have to agree with you that there's something fishy about my speed out of the hole that's keeping my bench down below my floor press. Just need to figure out what it is.

 

[musc2002pa]

This one is pretty easy to answer. You are training WSB, so I am assuming that you do bench with your elbows tucked in, squeeze your shoulder blades together, using your lats? Right? I am answering this question based on that your try to do those aforementioned bench techniques.

Your problem is your lats. The great thing about WSB is that if you do it long enough, you easily pin-point your weakness. Here is why its your lats.

1. Your sticking 2-3" off the chest. Thats low in the lift. With your elbows tucked, your lats are the big mover here. It could be a lack of static strength (which is, you set up tight, but as soon as the weight comes down, and you try to press up, your lats give out. This is a lack of static strength, which is the ability to stay tight under stress ie load).

When you miss a lift, does the bar go up 2-3" and start coming back down? If so then that is a definite sign of lack of lat tightness.

2. Your Floor Press is equal to or more than your Max Bench. Its rare to see this. Basically, this is telling me you don't know how to use your lats (not trying to be rude there). Basucally 295-315 seems to be your *absolute* max. This is the max weight you are able to support with your back. For the normal WSB lifter, they can do a lot more on 2-board than they can on floor press. Why? On 2-board, they utilize there lats (and leg drive). With there lats on 2-board, they can support more weight, and have greater drive out the bottom.

In your case, you arent using your lats/or lack of strength. The reason why your floor press is higher, is that the firmness of the floor provides support for your back...when you are on a flat bench, you dont get that support.

You may ask then why doesnt the average WSB gain from that support of the floor? Well we do. But the support of tight lats and upperback FAR excedes that of what the floor can offer, so on 2-board..etc, we do more weight than off the floor.


I would basically look at how you are setting up on the bench. Are you squeezing your shoulder blades together? Are you tucking your elbows in? Are you pulling the bar apart? Most importantly......are staying tight when you initate the press? I have seen lots of lifters set up great...bring the bar down....and soon as they start to press...they unload there shoulder blades, and BAM, the weight stops.

Also, have you done any high board presses, like 4-5 boards? what kind of weight do you use on them? I would suspect its not much more than your floor max....that again would key in to static strength deficiet and/or technique.

I hope this helps some, but I am almost positive this is what is going on. My brother had the same exact problem.

/chad
carolinapower.net

 

[DOM]

chad thanks for the long reply.

Thanks for the help, you definitely hit on some things I need to work on. I lose my tightness just like you said. I'll set up for the bench great, but then I'll lose tightness in my back during the lift -- sometimes when I unrack the weight, and sometimes when it hits my chest. I've noticed this before but haven't been able to correct it. Is there something I'm DOING incorrectly, or do I just need to be more conscious of it or what?

Also, I do a good job of training lats, twice a week, every week. So maybe they're strong but I'm not using them at all. Is there some trick to incorporating the lats into the lift, or is it just a result of proper set up and maintaining tightness? If anyone could describe how you correctly use your lats that would help a lot.

I don't think the problem is static strength. It feels more like my back slides out from beneth me like it's a technique problem.

I've never done a 4 or 5 board press, but if I had to guess, I'd say right in the 315 range like you said.

I'll be working on all this stuff. And I'm going to try a doubled mini around the wrist like you are to make sure that I'm pulling the bar apart. You've got me really excited that I might be able to put 50 lbs on my bench in a couple months just by fixing a tech problem.

Thanks again -DOM

 

[musc2002pa]

DOM,

If you loose tightness coming out the rack, it can be a couple of things. You are really suppose to 'pull' the weight out the rack instead of 'push' it out. To do this, you need pins that allow you to slide and pull the weight out. If you have pins that have a deep galley with a ridge...then you need to get a handoff.

Pulling the weight out the rack keeps you tight. Some people will press out of the rack. If you press to far your shoulder blades will have to come apart and your tightness is gone. This one is hard to explain, but you need to develop the technique to stay tight coming out the rack. If you ever feel like you have lost your tightness out the rack, just re-rack it and reset.

What kind of movements are you doing for your lats? Personally, I dont think 2x a week is enough. I did them 2x a week, and wasn't making the gains I needed. I currently train mine 3-4x a week. I also train upper back 2x a week.

Explaining to someone how to use their lats is very difficult. Dave Tate had trouble verbalizing it to me at a seminar. The number 1 thing I feel is squeezing my shoulder blades together. That initiates the tightness. When I am bring the bar down...I consciously pull the inside of my elbows in...and try to pull the bar apart with my hands. This helps activate your lats and rear delts. The mini-band around the wrist gives you this feeling. I honestly feel like I can stay tighter pulling the bar part.

Another thing to staying tight is taking a big breath and holding it BEFORE you even derack it. Lots of guys can take it ou the rack bring the bars to arms length and then take their breath. If you are having trouble staying tight, then you need to take your breath before you even start. I take my breath before I start....and just mouth the numbers 1,2,3 for my lift off. And DO NOT let your air out till you are completely locked out.

Another trick is to push your abs out against your belt. This just helps everything stay tight.

I really think you can make some big improvements with some of these tips. STaying tight is one of my biggest hurdles, but with improved technique, your bench will fly up. Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

/chad
carolinapower.net

 

[DOM]

Ok, thanks again for the tips Chad. Hopefully this will fix my problem with bar speed too. --DOM

 

[musc2002pa]

It will definitely increase bar speed too. Your back is your launching pad. The tighter you can keep it, the harder you can launch

/chad
carolinapower.net

 

[Screwball]

Your ratio of slow-twitch to fast-twitch muscle fibers may be skewed in favor of the slow-twitch fibers. Genetically, this is bad for quick, power movements. Are you good at repping weights in the 50% - 80% range? If you have excellent endurance than this could be the case. Just a thought...

 

[benchmonster]

I am a good example of having a high ratio of fast to slow twitch fibers in my pressing muscles, speaking to what Screwball was saying.

I have benched 500 in a meet, and have done 525 in the gym, have done a 2 board press of 565, but can only bench 225 like maybe 17 times.

I am not blowing smoke about my numbers I am just giving a real life example of what Screwball is talking about. I have seen people who could double and triple 90 percent of their max. I could never even get close to that.

But even though you cannot change the ratios, you can and must train to be as fast and explosive as you possibly can be. Speed kills. Move the bar as fast as you can, and think of dynamite exploding during your rep.

Getting stronger is only half the battle. Speed is the other half. Got to increase both to get the big numbers.

B.