batteling gyno!

[Jammin!]

Have been batteling gyno! I have been on letro for three weeks at 2.5 mgs a day throwin in nolva eod. Still taking 500 mg sus a week. Has anyone had success in reversing gyno on cycle or is surgery my only option? I have a few lumps in the lower chest area on each side. Lumps have gotten smaller is this something that could possibly go away after cycle? I have not had a good cycle gain wise mainly b/c of stress and this gyno. I think i am going to drop the letro and use aromasin and cruise into pct. Would like to hear some feedback from those who have experienced this.

 

[Mavafanculo]

Nolva has solid stuys showing reversal of existing gyno. usually the reccomended dose is 80mg until it subsides then taper down. cruise at 20 during a cycle if predisposed. or better still, once its gone use an anti-a like arimidex (or tiny dose of letro since its so powerful)

Nolva decreses the effectiveness of a-dex and letro by a big percentage. it does NOT have this effect on aromasin. so you're not getting good bang out of the letro dose ur on now.

letro doesnt have studys backing its use to reverse existing gyno, but does have very positive anedotal buzz for that application.

so pick a course, either nolva or letro, but not both.

 

[nutshairy]

why not both?? 8and20 said its ok

 

[Mavafanculo]

why not both?? 8and20 said its ok

I explained why in my post.

Unfortunately, Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (8). So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, we’re throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness.......... This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-profiles/aromasin.htm

 

[GUARDIAN]

why not both?? 8and20 said its ok

had 2 call me in this one....lol.

i personally use a-dex and nolvadex together. the adex to kill the estrogen and the nolvadex to fight for receptor sites with the estrogen is that is floating around. but then again i am never fighting lumps or anything serious. at the first sign of anything at all weird going on in the nipple region i will hit adex .5mg and nolva 20mg ed for a week and it puts that shit in check for me.

i dont use letro & nolvadex and i dont use nolvadex alone for gyno issues.

 

[Jammin!]

I explained why in my post.

Unfortunately, Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (8). So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, we’re throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness.......... This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-profiles/aromasin.htm

There seems to be alot of confusion here. I started throwin in the nolva b/c i have read so many posts abou letro nolva together.. So what would be better aromasin w/ nolva or letro?

 

[stressman13]

there are so many anecdotal ideas regarding anti-es and serms its not funny. Try nolva to reverse the gyno unless your using deca or tren. IF it doesnt work go right to letro. Ive had letro reverse lumps fairly quickly.

 

[Mavafanculo]

There seems to be alot of confusion here. I started throwin in the nolva b/c i have read so many posts abou letro nolva together.. So what would be better aromasin w/ nolva or letro?

to your specific question, aromasin. as I posted above, the serms nolva/clomid will greatly reduce the effectiveness of letro and arimidex. they wont reduce the effectivenmess of aromasin.

but read the rest

1) if you use letro alone, it will eliminate up to 95% + of the estrogen in your body. iow, there will hardly be any circulating estrogen to potentially bind to estrogen receptors so no need for an estrogen blocker/SERM like nolva/clomid/raloxifene.

2) the SERMS nolva and clomid will reduce the effectiveness of letro and arimidex. (dont know if the SERM raloxifene does the same).

3) Nolva and clomid will NOT reduce the effectiveness of aromasin. SOOO, an effective quick start fix to incipient gyno could be a nolva / aromasin stack.

4) Nolva and raloxifene have solid studies demonstrating reversal of existing gyno lumps.

5) Arimidex was found to be INEFFECTIVE for gyno reversal in some of these same studies.

6) Letro has no studies examining reversal, but GREAT anecdotal buzz in the BB community.



cliff notes;

no gyno but prone = anti-a like arimidex or letro or aromasin.

gyno w/o nandrolones =
a) nolva or raloxifene, and consider adding aromasin. or
b) letro

gyno w/nandrolones =
a) letro or consider aromasin if letro not avaiable.
b) DO NOT use SERMs (nolva/clomid) due to upregulation of progesterone receptors

 

[Mavafanculo]

somebody tell jammin he has 24 hours to give me K, or he's getting bombed

 

[79steeler]

Jammin you have 24 hours to give Mavafanculo K or your are getting Hiroshima bombed. LOL.

 

[gjohnson5]

Human studies???

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2001 Dec;79(1-5):27-34. Aromatase overexpression transgenic mice model: cell type specific expression and use of letrozole to abrogate mammary hyperplasia without affecting normal physiology.

Mandava U, Kirma N, Tekmal RR.

Department of Gynecology and Obstetrics, Emory University, 4217 Woodruff Memorial Building, 1639 Pierce Drive, Atlanta, GA 30322-4710, USA.

Our recent studies have shown that overexpression of aromatase results in increased tissue estrogenic activity and induction of hyperplastic and dysplastic lesions in female mammary glands and gynecomastia and testicular cancer in male aromatase transgenic mice. Both aromatase mRNA and protein are overexpressed in transgenic mammary glands and its expression is not limited to epithelial cells. However, it is more in epithelial than in stromal cells.Our results also indicate aromatase overexpression-induced changes in mammary glands can be abrogated [destroyed] with very low concentrations of the aromatase inhibitor, letrozole. Low concentration of letrozole had no effect on normal physiology as indicated by no significant change in the circulating levels of estradiol and follicle stimulating hormone as well as no change in estrogen responsive genes such as the progesterone receptor and lactoferrin in the uterine tissue. These observations indicate that the expression of aromatase in both epithelial and stromal cells can influence the complex interactions of biochemical pathways leading to mammary carcinogenesis and that the aromatase inhibitor, letrozole can be used as chemopreventive agents without affecting normal physiology.

letro doesnt have studys backing its use to reverse existing gyno, but does have very positive anedotal buzz for that application.

 

[gjohnson5]

I spoke too soon
I did find a human study that does say letro will reverse gyno...

Identification of the aromatase inhibitor letrozole in urine by gas chromatography/mass spectrometry.
Mareck U, Sigmund G, Opfermann G, Geyer H, Thevis M, Schänzer W.

Institute of Biochemistry, German Sport University Cologne, Carl-Diem-Weg 6, 50933 Cologne, Germany. [email protected]

Letrozole (1-(bis-(4-cyanophenyl)methyl)-1,2,4-triazole) is used therapeutically as a non-steroidal aromatase inhibitor (Femara) to treat hormone-sensitive breast cancer in postmenopausal women. For doping purposes it may be used to counteract the adverse effects of an extensive abuse of anabolic androgenic steroids (gynaecomastia) and to increase the testosterone concentration by stimulation of the testosterone biosynthesis. The use of aromatase inhibitors has been prohibited by IOC/WADA regulations for male and female athletes since September 2001 and January 2005, respectively. Spot urine samples from women suffering from metastatic breast cancer and being treated with letrozole were collected and analysed to develop/optimise the detection system for metabolites of letrozole to allow the identification of athletes who do not comply with the internationally prohibited use of this cancer drug. The assay was based on gas chromatography/mass spectrometry (GC/MS) and the main metabolite of letrozole (bis-4-cyanophenylmethanol) was identified by comparison of its mass spectrum and retention time with that of a bis-4-cyanophenylmethanol reference. The full-scan spectrum, diagnostic ions and a validation of the method for the analysis of bis-4-cyanophenylmethanol are presented. 2005 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

PMID: 16299697 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Mavafanculo]

Human studies???

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2001 Dec;79(1-5):27-34. Aromatase overexpression transgenic mice model: cell type specific expression and use of letrozole to abrogate mammary hyperplasia without affecting normal physiology.

Mandava U, Kirma N, Tekmal RR.

Department of Gynecology and Obstetrics, Emory University, 4217 Woodruff Memorial Building, 1639 Pierce Drive, Atlanta, GA 30322-4710, USA.

Our recent studies have shown that overexpression of aromatase results in increased tissue estrogenic activity and induction of hyperplastic and dysplastic lesions in female mammary glands and gynecomastia and testicular cancer in male aromatase transgenic mice. Both aromatase mRNA and protein are overexpressed in transgenic mammary glands and its expression is not limited to epithelial cells. However, it is more in epithelial than in stromal cells.Our results also indicate aromatase overexpression-induced changes in mammary glands can be abrogated [destroyed] ( <-- MAV EDIT: note that the word destroyed doesnt appear in the original study, but only in profile/analysis on one of the bodybuilding websites) with very low concentrations of the aromatase inhibitor, letrozole. Low concentration of letrozole had no effect on normal physiology as indicated by no significant change in the circulating levels of estradiol and follicle stimulating hormone as well as no change in estrogen responsive genes such as the progesterone receptor and lactoferrin in the uterine tissue. These observations indicate that the expression of aromatase in both epithelial and stromal cells can influence the complex interactions of biochemical pathways leading to mammary carcinogenesis and that the aromatase inhibitor, letrozole can be used as chemopreventive agents without affecting normal physiology.

GJ thats ^^ the one study that some have pointed to as support for letro's reversal of existing gyno. But check this from the study-

Our results also indicate aromatase overexpression-induced changes in mammary glands can be abrogated with very low concentrations of the aromatase inhibitor, Letrozole (Femara)

These observations indicate that the expression of aromatase in both epithelial and stromal cells can influence the complex interactions of biochemical pathways leading to mammary carcinogenesis and that the aromatase inhibitor, letrozole can be used as chemopreventive agent without affecting normal physiology.



1) The word "destroyed" doesnt appear in the original study

2) The clear statement is only that is is a chemopreventative agent

there's been some debate on the boards on this, but the consensus interpretation is that the poorly chosen word "abrogated" means what it seems to mean in the context of the study. It stops ADDITIONAL hyperplasia. it stops more changes. which is what AI's are great for. prevention. it doesnt say it reverses existing gyno.

The SERM study's on the other hand are on humans and tested for reversal of existing gyno.

 

[Mavafanculo]

I spoke too soon
I did find a human study that does say letro will reverse gyno...

Identification of the aromatase inhibitor letrozole in urine by gas chromatography/mass spectrometry.
Mareck U, Sigmund G, Opfermann G, Geyer H, Thevis M, Schänzer W.

Institute of Biochemistry, German Sport University Cologne, Carl-Diem-Weg 6, 50933 Cologne, Germany. [email protected]

Letrozole (1-(bis-(4-cyanophenyl)methyl)-1,2,4-triazole) is used therapeutically as a non-steroidal aromatase inhibitor (Femara) to treat hormone-sensitive breast cancer in postmenopausal women. For doping purposes it may be used to counteract the adverse effects of an extensive abuse of anabolic androgenic steroids (gynaecomastia) and to increase the testosterone concentration by stimulation of the testosterone biosynthesis. The use of aromatase inhibitors has been prohibited by IOC/WADA regulations for male and female athletes since September 2001 and January 2005, respectively. Spot urine samples from women suffering from metastatic breast cancer and being treated with letrozole were collected and analysed to develop/optimise the detection system for metabolites of letrozole to allow the identification of athletes who do not comply with the internationally prohibited use of this cancer drug. The assay was based on gas chromatography/mass spectrometry (GC/MS) and the main metabolite of letrozole (bis-4-cyanophenylmethanol) was identified by comparison of its mass spectrum and retention time with that of a bis-4-cyanophenylmethanol reference. The full-scan spectrum, diagnostic ions and a validation of the method for the analysis of bis-4-cyanophenylmethanol are presented. 2005 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

PMID: 16299697 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

G
this study is on detection systems for letro, not gyno -- I wouldnt put any weight on an off-point mention in the set-up language to the actual subject matter of the study

 

[INJECT-ED]

I have battled gyno. I am one of the poor souls that is predisposed to getting gyno when taking the harder steroids such as dbol.

I have used clomid, and nolvadex. They both worked ok. For me nolvadex worked best when taking a low dosage during the entire cycle or at least while taking the dbol. Problem for me was, it did not always work.

I would guess the biggest my gyno ever got was when it felt a little smaller than a ping pong ball. I would notice it most lifting my arms up, or flexing. It just really annoyed me even wearing a regular t-shirt.

My story is this. In the past I had dated a girl from Mexico. She would inject a product named "******" in her torso area to combat fat. It was a fat burner, a mesotherapy product. It probably has been mentioned before.

I injected it directly into the fat "ball" under the nipple going in from the side, not directly through the nipple. I used a hypodermic needle. I would use about a CC on each side. For me the results were almost instant. I could feel the results within a day. With using it a couple times a week it was pretty much gone. I love the stuff.

Good luck.

 

[Mavafanculo]

If you're gonna spam figure out a beter act. ping pong ball sized gyno? a supposed fat reducer getting rid of a gyno lump (which isnt adipose tissue)?

fail.