Back to Bread and Butter

[Kane Fan]

I dont read bullshit from noobs. Sorry.

so what your saying is your too small a man to admit when you were wrong
that's cool but really I'd have thought training in the martial arts would have helped you grow past that...

 

[Kane Fan]

BTW I know some top level competitors and have trained at the hammer house. I guess they are a shitty school. You try to throw me and a few of my buds you will lose every time. You can’t just throw me around. I could easily tie you up even if you where a superior wrestler and my friends could pound the shit out of you. Hell I can just pull guard with anyone and friends would do whatever. You are clueless bro. Nice try though. I am guessing you are another stand up figher. Classic argument of grapper vs. standup.

you know you got a serious problem
you think everything is standup vs ground
I say boxing isn't a small part of NHB because there are elements of boxing in every single mma fight and you say boxing is small because it' snot grappling
Djibme tells you it's possible to fight more then one guy at a time
and you tell him it's a classic standup vs ground argument
if someone screwed your gf I feel sure you'd say she only left you because she prefers strikers to grapplers....

 

[Red Bull]

christ almighty, what have i started..?

 

[Judo Tom]

dont worry red bull it happens not your fault and not anyone's really.

this thread can continue but if there are anymore flames or personal attacks im gonna start editing posts in a major way or just axe the whole thread. and i might just axe the whole thing. so keep it civil bring up some points try to back them up or just say how you feel but leave the bs out of it.

 

[Djimbe]

What are you talking about ? I even invited the guy over for some nice DRUMMING !

 

[KA-BAR]

The fact is that you dont always have a Choice . Sometimes the Numbers choose YOU . you train for the Worst Case or youre consumed by it , Period .

My Primary job is as a Musician , and I spend MOST of my time in bars NOT bouncing , but Playing . And the cops are NEVER on "Our Side" ... you have to Justify your actions if you send someone away in an Ambulance , trust me in this .

I train to run when I do not have my friends with me. IMO its stupid to fight multiple guys on the street with out backup. I train for one vs one. You or him.

Translation :

"MY training dosent Prepare me for this , so it cannot be possible that yours could , because I erroneously think that mine is superior to yours , even though I have no Idea whom all you have trained with in your Lifetime ."

*sigh* lets try this again :

1-1 Matches where everyone has seen Tapes of one another , no Cheap Shots are allowed , eveyone has the same level and type of training AND we say "READYYYY ... SEEEETT .. GO !" so no one has an Advantage of suprise or suddeness yeah , its a bit harder to manipulate an Opponent in that situation . Three ppl dont move as well as a unit as one does , no matyter how "Tough" they are . They dont have the Timing , and there are things you can do to take advantage . So therer ARE things that yo ucan do to 4 untrained ppl without warning that you CANT do to one Trained opponent that sees you coming and is prepared fopr your training .

Hey bro. I have some underground videos also where anything goes! Kimbo has many on the net and have you ever seen any of the Vale Tudo! — This grappling sport was originally a Brazilian form of street fighting. Many tapes on it man and no rules. No gloves ect… Of course this is one vs one again. I don’t know much about multiple attackers and I think its crazy to even try to take them on alone not knowing what skills they have. Sure I might be able to walk up to 5 skinny dudes and take of few of them out but no way in hell would I do it.

This is the funniest thing that Ive heard all day . I live in Allentown , PA , and Ill be oppening up a Training Facility just after the first of theyear . Youre more than free to come on down and see how "Slow" I am . Even though I Breakdance and Train in Capoeira at my "Slow" 400 lbs , and have trained with a National Muay Thai Light Heavyweight chamnpion that will testify that I was SO much faster than he was that he was unable to do anything at all to stop me from hitting him , AND he was unable to hit me , even though I fought him with my hands at my Knees . We only sparred for one round , but I was also able to catch his Kicks and perform Joint Manipulations on him WITH BOXING GLOVES ON . And his Trainer/Kru was Lumpanee Stadium (national Thai Champion) for YEARS with a Fighting Record that had more than 275 wins in it . I(m proportionate in my Size , and Explosive in my speed . I have 40" Thighs , 23" FOREARMS and only a 44" waist . Hell , my HEAD is 29&3/4" around and I still Dunk two handed at will . You have NO CLUE as to what youre talking about , and I can Kip Up from the ground as well as do Cartwheels a STANDING Split , and Walkovers .

I just LOVE the Presumption that Im slow , wether its on the Basketball Court , or in a Fight/Sparring .

But the fact is : IM A DRUMMER .

Martial Artists , and Boxers are , honestly , just slow with their hands by Comparison .

So you can be national champ Muay Thai guys up because your 400lb’s is faster and you can block everything and perform joint manipulations on them with gloves? Suuurrrreeee bud. This is ridiculous to say you are a better boxer and muey thai fighter than the pro’s. National champs at that. Hell why don’t you just go pro and make millions? You have to be ignorant to think people will believe this.

YES !

Hence the Tactical Ignorance . There was nothing wrong with your TECHNIQUE , it was your Tactics that got you beaten up . You should have put HIM down and stayed up , stomping him , and keeping your Vision of the surrounding area , ort even went for a Standing Submittion . You lose 85% of your Visibility from Top Position (Mount/G&P) and 75% from Guard .

As well it should have been . You learned what I would have tought you had you been one of my students and what My instructors pased on to me .

You should have sdone that ANYWAY of you actually had the Option . You were tryting to be a tough guy and fight when it was unneeded .


You THINK , and I KNOW . THats because Ive been thgere and DONE it , and you have not .

Athletes in NHB evebts DO NOT attack each others Knees anbd Throats . they DONT attempt to Maim their opponents , wich is WHY its a SPORT and not a FIGHT . No one would DO so-called "NHB" events if the fights were at that level of Brutality . You see LOTs of Leg Kicks , whats to prevcent them from targeting the Knee ? Nothign at all , its just NOT done , because that would raise the stakes to another level . Oh , and a Fighter's Longevity would last until his first loss , because his first loss would Cripple or Kill him .



You mean to say that your SPORT SPECIFIC training worked well IN YOUR SPORT ?

I could have told you that without ever "meeting" you .

I also could have told you you would have problems outside your sport if you fought like that .



I like MMA as a Sport , but its just that , a SPORT . Until you realise that youre going to keep running into "Lessons" that ppl like Tom and myself could have easily TOLD you (for free , no less) in Streetfights .



Actually , Ive never seen a Team MMA event . Please tell me where I can buy this DVD ?

The problem is that youre looking to MMA for conditions/variables that MMA or even the Idea of Sportive Competition is specifically designed to remove .

True MMA guys DO know what Works .

In MMA events .

Man you talk a ton of crap I none of that bullcrap you spout out works. I don’t fight more than one person anymore I learned from it like I have said many times. Its stupid IMO. One on one I am ready to roll with just about anyone. Many underground fights you get get off the net.

 

[KA-BAR]

Yes 2 well rounded fighters that have the same knowledge and skill usually larger guy will win. But you cannot get to large like i have said. It cuts into your cardio. Look at all the champs of ufc, pride ect... They are 220-230lb. 300+ men just dont make it anymore. To big to slow and gas to easily.

If you have a large guy with no skill a much smaller guy will dominate him. Look at early days of UFC where Royce Gracie would take out 260lb greco roman wrestlers. Hell he would beat everyone with simple submissions. He beast pro boxers also and everybody knows he has no standup game.

Many variables.

Size does matter thats why now they have weight classes in NHB.

 

[redbear]

I mean absolutly no disrespect but my profession allows me to be in a lot
of different violent situation and based solely on what you said your limited
in certain aspect`s and the dangerous part is it does`nt seem like your open
to in put other than from the world that your accustomed to. the GOOD thing is
your a runner. THE MORE YOU LEARN THE LESS YOU FIND OUT YOU KNOW!
KA-BAR.

 

[KA-BAR]

what! Are you serious. LOL. Just because a few guy like to blow you because you are tree dont mean shit. Your a want to be figher who I am gussing cannot walk up a flight of stairs without sucking wind. You talk way to much bullshit and people would have to be blind not to see it. You toss people around at will and beat up on Pro Muey guys and pro boxers. Give me a break. lol

ps your post are tiring me also. You post tons of bullshit and yea I am gussing I would run around you and take you down at will just by seeing what you type. I have seen your type many times. Just another internet tough guy. Thats all.

09-12-2004, 01:19 PM

Hi gang....

This thread was called to my attention, and since I was the Muay Thai fighter mentioned above who went with Djimbe to his CMA class, I thought I should at least post my thoughts....

Quick background: I've been studying MA's for about 15 years or so, 12 of which have been deveoted almost entirely to Muay Thai and Boxing (with a little submission grappling thrown in).

I went with Djimbe and Tigerfly to see Master Chan's class after fighting on Friday night. I was introduced to Master Chan who is an extremely nice guy. Very respectful and a great sense of humor. He worked with me to the side of his class for a little bit to show me some of what he teaches is and how he defends/counters boxing and kicks.

My observations:

It is important to state that the few drills that I performed with Master Chan were prearranged drills. We each knew what the 'attacker' was going to do first, though we each reacted (countered) without it being 'prearranged'. Also, we only did about 3 or 4 drills for about 10 minutes. I had just finished fighting in the "Mayhem on Mulberry Street" Muay Thai event, and I needed to get back to the arena to meet with my coaches and teammates.

Master Chan showed me some punch defenses. Master Chan is blazingly fast. I threw a punch and he slipped my punch and had clocked me in the jaw before it had registered that he had moved.

It was very obvious to me that he was holding back. When he hit me, he never followed through, but stopped as his strike as he placed it. Despite the fact that Master Chan was not following through on his strikes, I could feel the power behind them. We all know the difference between someone striking you correctly where it feels "solid" vs. when someone hits you wrong and it feels weak and soft. Despite Chan holding back, you could feel how solid the strikes were.

Also, when he was performing counter strikes vs. my boxing, he repeatedly was hitting the same spot on my arm over and over. Very precise, and he successfully "frogged" my arm each time.

Master Chan invited me to throw roundhouse kicks at him. He had an interesting defense where he angled his arm in such a manner that my kick kinda "slid" up his arm into his other hand to make for what felt like a very soft block. It felt like I was kicking a pillow, even though I was laying into the kicks pretty hard. (not full power, but about 70%). I only moved him with one kick.

Now, obviously my experience with Master Chan is very limited. We weren't going hard, We weren't doing anything "for real" We were just playing. What I can say is that my impression is that Master Chan is amazing. I have worked with many talented martial artists over the years, and I really feel that Master Chan is legit, and that what he is teaching is legit.

But, back to another point some of you have made....

Djimbe's size.

I have questioned this myself. By his sheer size, he is able to do things that most of us cannot. I am 6', 170 lbs. Despite my MT experience, Djimbe could maul me even had he not studied martial arts. So, how much of what he does and is capable of doing is simply by virtue of his size?

Who knows? I'm not sure he can be sure. I have sparred with him before (play sparring) and all I can truly say regarding his skill is that he is deceptively fast and he has excellent control.

I don't know how much my "review" contributes to this discussion. All I can recommend is that I believe that any of you have the opportunity, hook up wtih Djimbe to go visit Master Chan. He is very nice and open-minded, and will work with you to show you his style and how it works.


+++++++++

09-13-2004, 02:37 PM

I just wanted to make a quick response, and I hope this doesn't further muddle the discussion....

(QUICK DISCLAIMER: Just in case some of you have not figured this out, Djimbe & Tigerfly are friends of my wife and I, and have been for a few years now. I'm not here to "defend" him. He's a big boy and can take care of himself. However, since I do have a little first-hand experience of training with Djimbe, I thought I should at least offer my impressions to this discussion.)

I have sparred with Djimbe, though admittedly it was only for one 2-min round. We were not going full contact, so I can only post a couple of remarks regarding his skill or lack thereof.

1. He is DEFINATELY lacking in the conditioning department. (common knowledge)

2. He has deceptively FAST hand speed! For the first half of the round, I was eating his punches because even though I could see them coming, I just could not react to them. After about 1/2 the round, I adjusted and I was able to avoid his punches to a certain extent. But his punches were still very fast.

3. He has excellent control. Because he and I were merely playing, he was not hitting me hard at all. This is NOT because he did not have the skill to hit me hard if he wanted to, but he was being respectful of the fact that he and I were merely sparring and not fighting. To further clarify this, some people may be led to believe that he was not hitting me hard because he looks like hes fat and he is admittedly out of shape. However, I have sparred with non-skilled people who are large. They hit you HARD because they don't know how to control their strikes. All of Djimbe's strikes were controlled and he did not hurt me. Face it, Djimbe is almost TWICE my size.... literally! If he did not know how to control himself, he would have laid me the "F" out. But he kept control and "worked" during our match.

4. He did catch one of my kicks and perform a type of joint manipulation on my ankle that forced me to the ground.

That is really all I can say about him. I cannot properly assess his skill past the above because I did not spar with him longer or more seriously. I am also one of those who question how much of a difference there would be were he of a normal size.

So, can he fight? I have no idea. Can he defend against a shoot? I have no idea. Would I be willing to really fight him? Hell no!

When Djimbe and I have the opportunity to train and spar together again, I will definately offer a follow up to my thoughts and impressions.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++

09-15-2004, 12:56 PM

(I am only getting re-involved in this topic (flame war) because I was asked a direct question. I would prefer to be left out of this discussion from here on out)

"So , if a 400 lb man that can throw shots so fast that a trained Light Heavyweight champ cant see them coming before they land , and can catch kicks in midair from someone thats the "Athletically Ideal size" CANT fight ...

The quesation is , who CAN ?"

First, I want to make a clarification. I did SEE the shots coming, I simply was unable to REACT to them. (apologies to those of you who despise CAPS, lol) Also as I stated previously, towards the end of the round, I was starting to adjust to them. Not that I was evading and/or blocking them all, but I was starting to pick up the rhythm and adjust.

Unfortunately, I cannot answer the question. In my honest opinion, you definately displayed that you have martial skill. Despite your lack of conditioning, you were relaxed and you moved smoothly (especially your hands). And yes, you caught my kick and performed a joint manipulation that caused me to fall to the ground.

But as I've said before, I simply did not see enough from one 2-minute round of play sparring to form a very educated opinion of your true skill.

Look, you're my friend and you and I have discussed these things ad naseum. I know you possess the knowledge in your head and that you have a wonderful and skilled teacher. But you and I have not actually done enough mutual training for me to see your true level of skill.

I will reiterate my impressions, in an effort to make them more concise:

First, I do believe that you possess skill. But because I know practically NOTHING of the Chinese Martial Arts or Internal Martial Arts, I am NOT qualified to judge someones skill level in these arts.

Remember, when you and I did "work out" (not really), we did ONE drill together, and sparred for one round.

When we did the kicking drill, we were mostly going through the motions. We can say the exact same for our sparring drill. We were simply going through the motions and playing.

***For anyone interested, the reason why Djimbe and I only 'played' when we sparred is because I was due to fight the next weekend. A week before you fight, hard sparring is a definate no-no as you cannot afford ANY injuries, no matter how minor. (ask my opponent, he was forced to withdraw from the match right before the show due to an injury received while doing hard sparring a week before the match)***

Going a bit deeper into the little bit of insight I have into Djimbe's skill (emphasis: little bit).

Look, Djimbe and I talk all the time. We're friends and discuss training and fighting methods. I've been around the serious "fight scene" for the last 12 years or so. I would say that for the most part, Djimbe seems to understand what hes talking about. There are many times where he and I disagree, but it isn't because I think he's "Bullshido". He may have trouble articulating his responses, and too easily allows himself to get dragged into flamewars, but when you take the time to talk to him without getting into an argument, much of what he says makes sense.

Now, just because something makes sense in conversation does not mean that it will work in practice. This is where we come back to my point regarding the fact that I do not have enough experience training and/or sparring with Djimbe to give any true assessment of his skill.

I will be honest, I am just as curious as everyone else to see him demonstrate his ability, or lack thereof.

Lets go back to our "play" sparring match again.

I've sparred with big, unskilled guys before. They do NOT know how to control themselves. They hit you HARD without realizing they are hitting you hard. To them, they feel that they are merely sticking their arms out and you ran into it. I have a number of larger guys that I train with, ranging from 210 lbs, 220 lbs, 240 lbs, and a guy close to 300 lbs. The least experienced of these guys (240 lbs) will really hurt you badly without even trying. He thinks hes going 'light', but his definition of light is still enough to drop me, and he has done so on many occassions.

When I sparred with Djimbe, he had much better control than my 240 lb student, who by the way is also a regular fighter for our gym/camp. Djimbe moved smoothly and quickly. He did not "lumber" around as one would expect of someone his size. When he hit me, his blows were controlled and did not hurt me, though he was definately getting my attention.

I guess my point is this....

1. Djimbe does have a lot of martial knowledge. When he and I talk, we are able to discuss martial arts training and fighting logically and it makes sense. Does Djimbe articulate himself in an understandable manner? Well, sorta and sorta not. He makes much more sense in person than in writing. But then again, I've also developed quite the reputation of being patient, so I'm willing to sit and continue discussing things with him until I do understand what he's trying to say.

2. In my OPINION, I also believe that Djimbe has skill. But I would be lying to you if I were to comment on what level of skill that is. I have done one 1/2 hearted kicking drill, and 1 round of "play" sparring with him. I have NO IDEA based upon those two experiences what his true level of skill is.

3. I also question how much of his 'skill' is a product of his size. Don't get me wrong, I have seen that Djimbe does know how to do some things without relying on his size, but a few punches and kicks is not sufficient to accurately assess him.

4. Despite my opinion that Djimbe has both knowledge and skills, I cannot comment on whether or not he can truly fight. I have seen plenty of people who know what they're talking about, and can show what they're talking about, but still cannot fight. A perfect example would be my current Muay Thai coaches older brother. He holds black belt and equivalent ranking in multiple martial arts systems and is an excellent teacher and coach. He helped my coach prepare for and win his championship titles in Thailand. But as my coach says, he cannot fight worth crap. The few times he did try to fight, he got KTFO'ed.

5. I have NO IDEA whether or not Djimbe can actually fight or not! The only thing that I can say is that he does KNOW a lot and from what I have seen, I do BELIEVE that he has skills.

I realize that my comments don't really do a great deal for the conversation, but I did want to make sure to clarify what I've already said to ensure that my statements are not taken out of context.


There you go , Im betting yorue a Tiny little guy , with Bruce Lee syndrome . Run around me ? HAHAHAHAH !

But hey , your Posts ARE tiring , but not for the reasons you think !

 

[KA-BAR]

What in the hell! You seem to try very hard to get people to believe in you. Tell you what. I am going to make a few calls to my buds who are training for the UFC to see if you can stop by and train with them. They have a pro boxer and many many ground and pound wrestlers and submission guys hey train with. You come over here and I will come visit you. If you like we can spar a round or 2 also. No eye gouging and no peker kicks. Anything else goes.

If you are the size you say you are I will have to change my strategy around a bit but I am almost 100% certain I will throw a few leg kicks then do a lightning fast ankle pick and BOOM when you hit the mat. It will be all over. Once I get you down you will not get up.

Funny thing is I have a very strong feeling you are a want to be 150lb 17 year old kid trying to talk smack. I see more and more of you on elite these days. That is why most of the vets have left this place. Hey if you are so into MMA what is your handle on all there forums? Like sherdogs ect... Go into that place and where the real fighters hand out and spout your shit off to the pro's and see what they have to say.

Do you know something I find really ironic? I to am a drummer and a power lifter. I benched 500lb in a state sanctioned meet when I was in the 220’s! LOL I honestly cannot see where drumming would help you in a fight but who knows. Maybe it does.

No , YOU cant . I , on the other hand , was referring to a BET whre the person didnt resist . , though I HAVE done it to someone that didnt want it dont to them on more than one occasion . Its really not any harder than Suplexing them .



Best , hands down , is over at Lehigh . No comparison .



Has less to do with size than with my ability to stay on my feet . Its a little thing called Skill . I wasnt ALWAYS 400 lbs , I started training at age 3 . I didnt like g3etting Taken down THEN , so I started training Defenses to it .



I can play Basketball for 2 hours without "Dying" and my Classes last for 3 hours or so , and thats AFTER a 7 Story Walkup . I can also do Capoeira for over an hour without "Gassing" . In all Seriousness , some of the BEST Grapplers that I train with CAN "Gas" me in 20-30 min depending , IF I play their Game , but thats after 2 hours of Drilling during the Sparring Session , AND Im not allowed to hit them in any way , nor do I really "Do" Ground Subs outside of a few Leglocks , a Simple armbar and a couple of chokes . I mostly use the time to work on my Takedown Defenses and get Cardio in , and ANY of them will tell you that IF I was fighting back theyd get murdered .

Muscle Cuts Through Cardio , even though this IS your best Argument . The fact is that no Fight with me is lasting FIVE minutes , much less the 30 that it takes to "Gas" me . I can move , FASTER THAN YOU , for long enough to stop you from being able to move at all . Thats all that matters , until we run a Marathon . What do yu think that Im going to chase you around like an Idiot ? Nope . Im going to stand perfectly still and wait for you to Shoot , wich you willeventually get Impatient and do . then I will point your chin at the ceiling and pop you in the throat hard enough to swell your esophageal passage and dribble your skull against the floor , wich wont have a Mat on it . Should you NOT chose to try for a Takedown and try to strike with me Ill simply knock you out .



Actually , I competed in San SHou , Muay Thai and Kickboxing events when I was younger , in The west Indies and all over Asia . Competitions dont really mean anything , theyre just Sparring matches against guys you dont know .



Dude , your Kink is your own , and how anal you want to get is up to you .

I play Hand Drums . I dont use Sticks . I have faster hands than you . If you live near me then just wait till the first of the year and Ill be happy to play drums with you for 5 minutes . If you can keep up and not BLEED then Ill take you out Drinking on me . You , like most MAists , have NO CLUE how much faster or more accurate a Drummer's Hands have to be than a Fighters .



Actually , yours sounded the same to me . All the talk about what YOu would DO to me and what your FRIENDS would do to me and whatnot .



No , I wont gas before I incapacitate you , Ill bet MONEY that Im faster than you are , and Im pretty damed good off my back . Im probably better at Groundfighting than you are , I just Train my Ground Game to support my Striking Game . Dosent mean that I dont pay attention to all the rest of whats being Taught .



You couldnt handle one of my legs . Im a Powerlifter . Not even a World Class one , and you OBVIOUSLY have some sort of Dungeons and Dragons/Videogame Idea of how fast a Powerful big guy can move . Look up guys like Shane Hammon , Whos 5'9" and 350+ and can Dunk a Basketball , and Sprint like nobodies Business . You are TOTALLy Ignorant of what a Power Athlete is capable of , or what advantages working your Limit Strength gives you .



Actually thats exactly what you said .



So sorry that you went with all the Lolling , heres a Pic of me WALKING while curling a 6' 200 lbs man by his head :

Difference between me and you : I provide Evidence and offer you every Opportunity to prove me wrong . You say you live near me , I study in NYC its an easy drive , take a weekend day and come out after the first of the year , Ill have my Training Facility up and Running . You can then post about how you "Busted" me and tell everyone how "slow" you think I am at that point .