09-12-2004, 01:19 PM
Hi gang....
This thread was called to my attention, and since I was the Muay Thai fighter mentioned above who went with Djimbe to his CMA class, I thought I should at least post my thoughts....
Quick background: I've been studying MA's for about 15 years or so, 12 of which have been deveoted almost entirely to Muay Thai and Boxing (with a little submission grappling thrown in).
I went with Djimbe and Tigerfly to see Master Chan's class after fighting on Friday night. I was introduced to Master Chan who is an extremely nice guy. Very respectful and a great sense of humor. He worked with me to the side of his class for a little bit to show me some of what he teaches is and how he defends/counters boxing and kicks.
My observations:
It is important to state that the few drills that I performed with Master Chan were prearranged drills. We each knew what the 'attacker' was going to do first, though we each reacted (countered) without it being 'prearranged'. Also, we only did about 3 or 4 drills for about 10 minutes. I had just finished fighting in the "Mayhem on Mulberry Street" Muay Thai event, and I needed to get back to the arena to meet with my coaches and teammates.
Master Chan showed me some punch defenses. Master Chan is blazingly fast. I threw a punch and he slipped my punch and had clocked me in the jaw before it had registered that he had moved.
It was very obvious to me that he was holding back. When he hit me, he never followed through, but stopped as his strike as he placed it. Despite the fact that Master Chan was not following through on his strikes, I could feel the power behind them. We all know the difference between someone striking you correctly where it feels "solid" vs. when someone hits you wrong and it feels weak and soft. Despite Chan holding back, you could feel how solid the strikes were.
Also, when he was performing counter strikes vs. my boxing, he repeatedly was hitting the same spot on my arm over and over. Very precise, and he successfully "frogged" my arm each time.
Master Chan invited me to throw roundhouse kicks at him. He had an interesting defense where he angled his arm in such a manner that my kick kinda "slid" up his arm into his other hand to make for what felt like a very soft block. It felt like I was kicking a pillow, even though I was laying into the kicks pretty hard. (not full power, but about 70%). I only moved him with one kick.
Now, obviously my experience with Master Chan is very limited. We weren't going hard, We weren't doing anything "for real" We were just playing. What I can say is that my impression is that Master Chan is amazing. I have worked with many talented martial artists over the years, and I really feel that Master Chan is legit, and that what he is teaching is legit.
But, back to another point some of you have made....
Djimbe's size.
I have questioned this myself. By his sheer size, he is able to do things that most of us cannot. I am 6', 170 lbs. Despite my MT experience, Djimbe could maul me even had he not studied martial arts. So, how much of what he does and is capable of doing is simply by virtue of his size?
Who knows? I'm not sure he can be sure. I have sparred with him before (play sparring) and all I can truly say regarding his skill is that he is deceptively fast and he has excellent control.
I don't know how much my "review" contributes to this discussion. All I can recommend is that I believe that any of you have the opportunity, hook up wtih Djimbe to go visit Master Chan. He is very nice and open-minded, and will work with you to show you his style and how it works.
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09-13-2004, 02:37 PM
I just wanted to make a quick response, and I hope this doesn't further muddle the discussion....
(QUICK DISCLAIMER: Just in case some of you have not figured this out, Djimbe & Tigerfly are friends of my wife and I, and have been for a few years now. I'm not here to "defend" him. He's a big boy and can take care of himself. However, since I do have a little first-hand experience of training with Djimbe, I thought I should at least offer my impressions to this discussion.)
I have sparred with Djimbe, though admittedly it was only for one 2-min round. We were not going full contact, so I can only post a couple of remarks regarding his skill or lack thereof.
1. He is DEFINATELY lacking in the conditioning department. (common knowledge)
2. He has deceptively FAST hand speed! For the first half of the round, I was eating his punches because even though I could see them coming, I just could not react to them. After about 1/2 the round, I adjusted and I was able to avoid his punches to a certain extent. But his punches were still very fast.
3. He has excellent control. Because he and I were merely playing, he was not hitting me hard at all. This is NOT because he did not have the skill to hit me hard if he wanted to, but he was being respectful of the fact that he and I were merely sparring and not fighting. To further clarify this, some people may be led to believe that he was not hitting me hard because he looks like hes fat and he is admittedly out of shape. However, I have sparred with non-skilled people who are large. They hit you HARD because they don't know how to control their strikes. All of Djimbe's strikes were controlled and he did not hurt me. Face it, Djimbe is almost TWICE my size.... literally! If he did not know how to control himself, he would have laid me the "F" out. But he kept control and "worked" during our match.
4. He did catch one of my kicks and perform a type of joint manipulation on my ankle that forced me to the ground.
That is really all I can say about him. I cannot properly assess his skill past the above because I did not spar with him longer or more seriously. I am also one of those who question how much of a difference there would be were he of a normal size.
So, can he fight? I have no idea. Can he defend against a shoot? I have no idea. Would I be willing to really fight him? Hell no!
When Djimbe and I have the opportunity to train and spar together again, I will definately offer a follow up to my thoughts and impressions.
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09-15-2004, 12:56 PM
(I am only getting re-involved in this topic (flame war) because I was asked a direct question. I would prefer to be left out of this discussion from here on out)
"So , if a 400 lb man that can throw shots so fast that a trained Light Heavyweight champ cant see them coming before they land , and can catch kicks in midair from someone thats the "Athletically Ideal size" CANT fight ...
The quesation is , who CAN ?"
First, I want to make a clarification. I did SEE the shots coming, I simply was unable to REACT to them. (apologies to those of you who despise CAPS, lol) Also as I stated previously, towards the end of the round, I was starting to adjust to them. Not that I was evading and/or blocking them all, but I was starting to pick up the rhythm and adjust.
Unfortunately, I cannot answer the question. In my honest opinion, you definately displayed that you have martial skill. Despite your lack of conditioning, you were relaxed and you moved smoothly (especially your hands). And yes, you caught my kick and performed a joint manipulation that caused me to fall to the ground.
But as I've said before, I simply did not see enough from one 2-minute round of play sparring to form a very educated opinion of your true skill.
Look, you're my friend and you and I have discussed these things ad naseum. I know you possess the knowledge in your head and that you have a wonderful and skilled teacher. But you and I have not actually done enough mutual training for me to see your true level of skill.
I will reiterate my impressions, in an effort to make them more concise:
First, I do believe that you possess skill. But because I know practically NOTHING of the Chinese Martial Arts or Internal Martial Arts, I am NOT qualified to judge someones skill level in these arts.
Remember, when you and I did "work out" (not really), we did ONE drill together, and sparred for one round.
When we did the kicking drill, we were mostly going through the motions. We can say the exact same for our sparring drill. We were simply going through the motions and playing.
***For anyone interested, the reason why Djimbe and I only 'played' when we sparred is because I was due to fight the next weekend. A week before you fight, hard sparring is a definate no-no as you cannot afford ANY injuries, no matter how minor. (ask my opponent, he was forced to withdraw from the match right before the show due to an injury received while doing hard sparring a week before the match)***
Going a bit deeper into the little bit of insight I have into Djimbe's skill (emphasis: little bit).
Look, Djimbe and I talk all the time. We're friends and discuss training and fighting methods. I've been around the serious "fight scene" for the last 12 years or so. I would say that for the most part, Djimbe seems to understand what hes talking about. There are many times where he and I disagree, but it isn't because I think he's "Bullshido". He may have trouble articulating his responses, and too easily allows himself to get dragged into flamewars, but when you take the time to talk to him without getting into an argument, much of what he says makes sense.
Now, just because something makes sense in conversation does not mean that it will work in practice. This is where we come back to my point regarding the fact that I do not have enough experience training and/or sparring with Djimbe to give any true assessment of his skill.
I will be honest, I am just as curious as everyone else to see him demonstrate his ability, or lack thereof.
Lets go back to our "play" sparring match again.
I've sparred with big, unskilled guys before. They do NOT know how to control themselves. They hit you HARD without realizing they are hitting you hard. To them, they feel that they are merely sticking their arms out and you ran into it. I have a number of larger guys that I train with, ranging from 210 lbs, 220 lbs, 240 lbs, and a guy close to 300 lbs. The least experienced of these guys (240 lbs) will really hurt you badly without even trying. He thinks hes going 'light', but his definition of light is still enough to drop me, and he has done so on many occassions.
When I sparred with Djimbe, he had much better control than my 240 lb student, who by the way is also a regular fighter for our gym/camp. Djimbe moved smoothly and quickly. He did not "lumber" around as one would expect of someone his size. When he hit me, his blows were controlled and did not hurt me, though he was definately getting my attention.
I guess my point is this....
1. Djimbe does have a lot of martial knowledge. When he and I talk, we are able to discuss martial arts training and fighting logically and it makes sense. Does Djimbe articulate himself in an understandable manner? Well, sorta and sorta not. He makes much more sense in person than in writing. But then again, I've also developed quite the reputation of being patient, so I'm willing to sit and continue discussing things with him until I do understand what he's trying to say.
2. In my OPINION, I also believe that Djimbe has skill. But I would be lying to you if I were to comment on what level of skill that is. I have done one 1/2 hearted kicking drill, and 1 round of "play" sparring with him. I have NO IDEA based upon those two experiences what his true level of skill is.
3. I also question how much of his 'skill' is a product of his size. Don't get me wrong, I have seen that Djimbe does know how to do some things without relying on his size, but a few punches and kicks is not sufficient to accurately assess him.
4. Despite my opinion that Djimbe has both knowledge and skills, I cannot comment on whether or not he can truly fight. I have seen plenty of people who know what they're talking about, and can show what they're talking about, but still cannot fight. A perfect example would be my current Muay Thai coaches older brother. He holds black belt and equivalent ranking in multiple martial arts systems and is an excellent teacher and coach. He helped my coach prepare for and win his championship titles in Thailand. But as my coach says, he cannot fight worth crap. The few times he did try to fight, he got KTFO'ed.
5. I have NO IDEA whether or not Djimbe can actually fight or not! The only thing that I can say is that he does KNOW a lot and from what I have seen, I do BELIEVE that he has skills.
I realize that my comments don't really do a great deal for the conversation, but I did want to make sure to clarify what I've already said to ensure that my statements are not taken out of context.
There you go , Im betting yorue a Tiny little guy , with Bruce Lee syndrome . Run around me ? HAHAHAHAH !
But hey , your Posts ARE tiring , but not for the reasons you think !
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Sure they get paid more but eventually boxing will be taken over by NHB. Boxing will be a thing of the past. MMA i.e. UFC, Pride, KOTC will swallow it up. NHB is the closest sport you can get to the real deal. 
So that gives you an advantage? How many competitions you been? What do you mean I don’t know who I am talking to? Please stop talking like that. 
You have to be ignorant to think people will believe this. 
