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Nelson what dose of Avena Sativa would you reccomend for pct?
Avena Sativa Dosage
- Thread starter Ttokkyo Jack
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It depends on what else you're taking that also lowers SHBG. If the avena is of good quality, 1000 mgs seems to be the magic number where it makes a difference. I think anything over 2 grams is overkill though since like vitamins, only so much can be utilized.
flexshack said:
Uh oh,here we go. Everything I've found to lower SHBG I put in UNLEASHED. Read about it here: www.proteinfactory.com If anything else (tha's legal) is discovered to do so, I'll add it in, but for now, this is it.
There's been some suggestion that Carao also lowers SHBG but no studies have been done on it. Opinions vary as to its effectiveness.
Mr. Black said:
It couldn't hurt. If you're going to still be on for weeks, you may not notice its effects as much. I'd say once you're off completely, up the dosage and maybe add some Tribulus, "Post-Cycle" and you may even want to try Carao although opinions on Caraos effectiveness are mixed.
Ganryu said:
i don't believe they are suppresive, but i do have an hypothesis about it. i wonder if after long term usage, one can get desensitized to their leuteinizing hormone since tribulus causes a somewhat large increase in it? (like hcg)?? just a thought to ponder over.
flexshack said:
That is correct. And because an increase in LH can also cause an increase in estrogen, it can have a suppressive-like effect.
Singleton
New member
Does Provi lower shbg? What's the deal on provi?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1900485
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1900485
Singleton said:
Yes, but you can't use Proviron non stop.
Nelson Montana said:
it is! wow, sometimes i even impress myself! lol! btw, is the desensitization to lh irreversible(like hcg) or will one gradually regain sensitivity over time? i am asking this b/c i took tribulus for over a month on a daily basis and hope i didn't do any permanent damage now.
Nelson Montana said:
now i thought proviron just frees up testosterone b/c it binds to shbg. i didn't think that it actually decreases the amount of shbg, right? as a matter of fact, i thought that all aas will cause an increase in shbg over time as the body adjusts to the exogenous doses to form a homeostasis. am i wrong here?
11/2in22g5ccfilled
New member
no it has to be fresh green oats.
Anakin said:
Proviron is meant to be taken to get you over the hump but yes, if you stay on too long it will delay recovery.
I'm leaning away from Proviron more and leaning more toward very low dose A-dex during a cycle and the herbal POST-CYCLE to get over the hump.
Anakin: I heard you did the Clomid and it helped. Good to hear it bro. As much as I don't like the stuff, you may be one of the lucky ones. But didn't you do HCG at the same time? My guess is that it was the HCG that did the trick. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I'd venture to guess there's no way your levels are going to stay elevated. But hopefully you gave your HPTA a little punt and it'll recover faster. I'd still recommend the herbals once the HCG wears off. At any rate, if you got so supressed from such a mild cycle, you may want to think twice about doing another one. Wait a while and see how you stabilize. I'd be curious to know your blood test levels in a month.
twistedneck
New member
mt, if you are on trt shbg is the one nagging issue that can keep you from feeling great. despite having enough total T, your free T is low. some people just cant get shbg down and it could be caused by excess E. This is where a top quality trt doc can prescribe a-dex .5mg twice /week..
twistedneck said:
I'm not so sure A-dex will do much to lower SHBG. And that dosage is a little high for TRT purposes. I hate to keep drilling this in but the only stuff that legal that's been proven to lower SHBG is in UNLEASHED. That's why I love the stuff.
twistedneck
New member
Nelson, thanks for the clarification. I was not sure if Unleashed lowered shbg via lowing E or not. I know in some men as we age even though E is very low shbg still climbs up. Not even fixing the T/E ratio helps every time. Unleashed may be a great thing for all trt guys to look at. I found it so potent that i was afraid of the woods and decided not to use it very often.
twistedneck said:
Since the reason given for not being on Proviron year round is that it will keep you suppressed my question is that does that also apply when one is on HRT indefinitely since you are going to be suppressed anyway? I didn't think a-dex lowered SHBG but was simply an anti-aromatase whereas, Proviron is both an anti-aromatase and binds to SHBG. I can see the use for products like Unleashed that Nelson recommends because it's always best to avoid drugs but if suppression isn't an issue, and Proviron at dosages of 25-50 mg hasn't been shown to be toxic, then I see no reason why, as Nelson mentioned previously, one can't be on Proviron year round. After all, natural supps are often hit and miss.
twistedneck
New member
mt, proviron has been shown to increase triglyceride levels far more than T, same with most other synthetic androgens (even oxandrolone). High triglycerides is a huge risk factor for a heart attack. Thats why men use T not synthetic androgens for HRT. This is the same reason why stuff like unleashed and post cycle is healthy to use year round.
You might want to look into DHT gel. Your doc could put you on dht gel instead of androgel.. he'd never you on both. good luck.
You might want to look into DHT gel. Your doc could put you on dht gel instead of androgel.. he'd never you on both. good luck.
Proviron is also liver toxic. And for reasons unknown, its effect seem to diminish with extended use.
Nelson Montana said:
--Not according to Schering's package insert:
PHARMACOLOGICAL ACTION
Proviron balances a deficiency of androgen formation which begins to fall gradually with increasing age. Therefore, Proviron is suitable for treatment of all conditions caused by deficient endogenous androgen formation. In the recommended therapeutic dosage, Proviron will not impair spermatogenesis. Proviron is especially well tolerated by the liver.
--Also, they recommend after an initial dose of 75-100mg/day for several months they recommend a "maintenance" dose of 50-75mg/day which seem to imply that, like HRT, treatment is indefinite.
Hypogonadism requires continuous therapy
For development of secondary male sex characteristics 1 Proviron tablet of 25 mg 3-4 times daily for several months. As maintenance dose 1 Proviron tablet of 25 mg twice or three times daily will be sufficient.
--For the whole spiel:
http://home.intekom.com/pharm/schering/proviron.html
twistedneck
New member
Interesting mt. what about the downgrading effect over time? it may somehow deminish normal dht's effects in the brain over time since 1 methyl dht is WAY more potent mg/mg and stays in the blood much longer than plain old dht. come full cirlce back to avena again. its just so much more mild on the body. 
twistedneck said:Interesting mt. what about the downgrading effect over time? it may somehow deminish normal dht's effects in the brain over time since 1 methyl dht is WAY more potent mg/mg and stays in the blood much longer than plain old dht. come full cirlce back to avena again. its just so much more mild on the body.
Actually, I've never used Proviron. Just speculating and discussing. I've been an avid user of BAC's avena sativa powder for quite some time. I never heard of it until Nelson brought it to the boards attention. I'm not sure if it works but at less than $6.00 for 50 grams I don't see the harm.
twistedneck said:it may somehow deminish normal dht's effects in the brain over time since 1 methyl dht is WAY more potent mg/mg and stays in the blood much longer than plain old dht.
did you read this somewhere or was it just a theory of yours? i am curious to know b/c i have taken proviron before and hope i didn't do any permanent damage. thanks.
twistedneck
New member
just my theory bro..
as with ANY herbal, the assayed active % ACTIVE SAPONINS ( ex protodioscin in tribulus; avenacosides in avena; agnusides in agnus castus etc ) determine how successful a product may be.
Otherwise you're just buying HAY.
Many vendors hide behind some general saponin content claim, but herbals contain many different saponins, of which only 1 or 2 are the "wonder drug".
I think many people who got nothing out of herbals were just buying inactive stuff.
Otherwise you're just buying HAY.
Many vendors hide behind some general saponin content claim, but herbals contain many different saponins, of which only 1 or 2 are the "wonder drug".
I think many people who got nothing out of herbals were just buying inactive stuff.
