athletes- pl squat or oly squat

[b fold the truth]

Well when people look at squat depth they forget the most important thing, joint ROM. You butt maybe as low as the olylifters, but your knee angle is not the same. It's not just the hip angle, its the knee angle as well. Typically when most olylifters do fullsquats, the hip crease will not be much lower than parallel, unless they are really skinny, But the knee angle will be really acute. Also with a wide stance, the ROM is also shortened slightly.
With a box squat one must also lean quite a bit forward to sitback, whereas when one rises out of cleans and snatches you have to be upright and the hips will be closer to the ankles.
Plus in boxsquats the centre of gravity is behind the ankles, so the muscles have to flex forward rather than upwards.
Boxsquats can help pulling power, but because of the double knee rebend in the 2nd pull, again the body is position is actually closer to a high bar squat - knees forward, torso quite upright, centre of gravity slightly forward - except in the snatch where you are quiet bent over forward.

I've put boxsquats forward to CT before, and he says if they did help, elite olylifters would be doing them. There is another guy I know on Dr squat, whose coach knows Louie, and he has taught him box squats. He did try them but found they did not help oly recovery strength.

When you rise from a clean/snatch recovery, it's leg strength, rather than hip strength that's the main factor since your can't really lean to far forward. I would say olylifters are not weak in the hips and posterior chain as a rule, because of the amount of heavy pulls they do. They really are pulling machines, and pulls hit the posterior chain hard. You need strong glutes to pull heavy cleans in the correct body position from the floor. Unlike powerlifting deadlifts, your back has to remain at the same angle, and this requires strong glutes, hams and erectors.

Olysquats don't tax the erectors as hard, but do hit the abs harder becuase of the more upright stance. With the amount of pulls olylifters do this is probbaly a good thing
there are good mornings and other things for that.
Don't forget that Olylifts do quite a bit of heavy drop snatches and frontsquats with the same stance they use for recovery strength.

For myself, I have a big butt and hams from olysquats, even the way I do front squats nail my hams and glutes just as hard as my quads
I just find full squats to be more of a general all rounder that hits all the muscles of the lower body evenly. But that just maybe for my body type, and squatting style who knows. That is appealing in itself, you save time by not having to do different squats etc.

I have dabbled a bit in boxsquats as you may recall. I can't tell if they helped or not. I am willing to try everything once or twice, whatever it takes.

I can understand now about doing the OL Squats for OL lifters. I just don't have much understanding of the OL lifts and I am sure that you are more than correct about doing the OL squats for OL lifters.

A few more thoughts though...I'm not bent way over when I box squat. Watch Spatts box squat and you can see that she is basically still straight up and down. Cheese bends way over...because of lack of hip strength and flexibility (mostly flexibility from what I can tell). I, for the most part, never bend over on the box squats but do bend (round) my back a little to high bar squat.

As far as depth goes, I can see your point for OL lifters again. Also, I would imagine the raised heel on the OL shoe creates more of a fwd lean and would have a smaller angle from ankle, knee, and hip. Is this really that beneficial for the normal athlete?

I've heard people say that I should high bar squat to help with my stones because I go into such a deep stance, but a lot of strongmen don't when doing the stones. Also, our backs are rounded and the stone/weight is in front and not in back of the body, so we have been doing some front squats. I think it might help. A lot of the stones are hip and ham strength though...strange.

Are you sure that OL squats hit the abs harder? I feel it in my abs A LOT more when I wide stanced squat 500 than when I OL squat 500. I also feel that a belt helps me more on the wide stanced squat than it does on the OL Squat...

I can possibly see how the OL squats put more stress on the quads and do work the legs in a different way. I can also see how the erectors are getting hit hard as an OL lifter because of all the pulls that you do...but for a Strongman and Strength Athlete that T3C is...and because erector strength is important to the Strongman...wouldn't just doing the box squats be a pretty darn good choice?

I still feel that everyone should incorporate the front and back squat into their routine (I sure do) but the base of their routine (unless they are an OL lifter) should be box squats.

Also, I don't mean to give off the impression that my box squat or my OL squat is done with perfect form.

I really appreciate all of your input CCJ...

B True

 

[coolcolj]

A few more thoughts though...I'm not bent way over when I box squat. Watch Spatts box squat and you can see that she is basically still straight up and down. Cheese bends way over...because of lack of hip strength and flexibility (mostly flexibility from what I can tell). I, for the most part, never bend over on the box squats but do bend (round) my back a little to high bar squat.

As far as depth goes, I can see your point for OL lifters again. Also, I would imagine the raised heel on the OL shoe creates more of a fwd lean and would have a smaller angle from ankle, knee, and hip. Is this really that beneficial for the normal athlete?

I've heard people say that I should high bar squat to help with my stones because I go into such a deep stance, but a lot of strongmen don't when doing the stones. Also, our backs are rounded and the stone/weight is in front and not in back of the body, so we have been doing some front squats. I think it might help. A lot of the stones are hip and ham strength though...strange.

Are you sure that OL squats hit the abs harder? I feel it in my abs A LOT more when I wide stanced squat 500 than when I OL squat 500. I also feel that a belt helps me more on the wide stanced squat than it does on the OL Squat...

I can possibly see how the OL squats put more stress on the quads and do work the legs in a different way. I can also see how the erectors are getting hit hard as an OL lifter because of all the pulls that you do...but for a Strongman and Strength Athlete that T3C is...and because erector strength is important to the Strongman...wouldn't just doing the box squats be a pretty darn good choice?

well for me to sitback like that I do have to lean more forward, it's matter of balance. This is relative though, since I'm pretty upright in an oly squat due to the olyshoes.

remeber you don't have to use oly shoes to full squats.
I don't have any problem doing them in chucks. I use to full squat in BBall shoes
You may have some clips of this

The heel raise does lower ankle flexibility requirements and so your upper toso is more upright, but again without the heel your body just bends less at the ankle and more at the hip (more forward lean) to adjust for this, so there isn't any difference either way as far as flexibility and ROM goes. Think of how your body adjusts when you walking uphill and downhill.
I guess I should post a clip of me full squatting in chucks

Well when you pull stones, up it is more or less like a pullthrough in a way. It isn't a strict squat up.

About Oly squats hitting the abs hard - Well I never thought they did, I know front squats do. But when I did those slow eccentric olysquats, man did my abs get real sore the next day, So now I know they do
The more upright the torso the more abs come into play, and vice versa, the more forward lean, the more lower back.
depends on your form I guess. Squatting is so variable. My form changes from sets to set

Olysquats still hit the erectors hard, any sort of movement that require the hips to extend will have have strong erector involment
My erectors get pumped. It's probbaly no different to Box squats
Remeber the bar is very high on the back, that creates a long lever for the lower back to cope with

The only way to see is to try either one for 8 weeks and see the transfer of results and make an informed decision.

 

[b fold the truth]

well for me to sitback like that I do have to lean more forward, it's matter of balance. This is relative though, since I'm pretty upright in an oly squat due to the olyshoes.

remeber you don't have to use oly shoes to full squats.
I don't have any problem doing them in chucks. I use to full squat in BBall shoes
You may have some clips of this

The heel raise does lower ankle flexibility requirements and so your upper toso is more upright, but again without the heel your body just bends less at the ankle and more at the hip (more forward lean) to adjust for this, so there isn't any difference either way as far as flexibility and ROM goes. Think of how your body adjusts when you walking uphill and downhill.
I guess I should post a clip of me full squatting in chucks

Well when you pull stones, up it is more or less like a pullthrough in a way. It isn't a strict squat up.

About Oly squats hitting the abs hard - Well I never thought they did, I know front squats do. But when I did those slow eccentric olysquats, man did my abs get real sore the next day, So now I know they do
The more upright the torso the more abs come into play, and vice versa, the more forward lean, the more lower back.
depends on your form I guess. Squatting is so variable. My form changes from sets to set

Olysquats still hit the erectors hard, any sort of movement that require the hips to extend will have have strong erector involment
My erectors get pumped. It's probbaly no different to Box squats
Remeber the bar is very high on the back, that creates a long lever for the lower back to cope with

The only way to see is to try either one for 8 weeks and see the transfer of results and make an informed decision.

I appreciate the time you take to write all of this to me. I do learn a lot when I ask you questions.

I'll still keep the high bar or front squats every week...they are GREAT exercises...

B True

 

[delldell2]

There is a lot more to explosiveness than just squatting fast or heavy.

So what is more to it than heavy squats and speed squats?

Plyos, oly lifts, and jump squats when appropriate? Is that it?

"1) main sport exercises with added resistance - jumping with weighted vest

2) Assistance exercises
A - maximal strnegth - ie squats, deadlifts etc
B - Rate of force developement - olys, speed squats etc
C - DynamicStrength - light jumpsquats, weighted plyos
D - Stretch shortening cycle - plyos, depth jumps, power jerks etc"

So you work on A constantly up to a certain point (2xbodyweight, etc), but work on B&C concurrently also. At certain times of the year you work on D, but not constantly? Is that correct?

 

[coolcolj]

Look at the CT Conjugate Method mtheod topic on CF forum

But yes more or less, A and B all the time, C cycled in and out, D when peaking

Powerjerks would be lumped in with B as well

 

[dzuljas]

Well, if you ask my college's football strength coach, he'd tell you to do neither since "squats are bad for your knees."

Yeah, I heard that the penn state football program doesnt squat. I know this one guy who is on the track team there and he says the strength coaches dont know whats going on