athletes- pl squat or oly squat

[t3c]

what do you guys think is better for sports....besides powerlifting

it seems like the oly squat would be more practical?


i was just having a talk about this with my friend...any thoughts

 

[Tweakle]

I've not been an 'athlete' since high school but I think they're both useful, high bar to build the quads and low bar for back/glutes/hams.

You ever read about how Ben Johnson used to do easy reps with 600lbs in the full squat? Freaky stuff.

 

[coolcolj]

Full squats IMO. Nothing beats full ROM strength.

People always say oly squats for quads for some reason, this is not the case, the hams and glutes are still very heavily active, just that the balance is more evenly distributed between the quads, hams and glutes.

With a powerlifting hip back style squat, the stress is mostly hams and glutes.

Quads are very important - people always seem to downplay the role of quads, but when you acclerate in a sprint from a standing start, there is a lot of quad activation. Especially when your leaning forward, like from starting blocks.
Quads are your pushing and agilty muscles. Strong quads also play a role in keeping the knee stable in ballistic actions.

Your only as strong as your weakest link

anyway in the weight room, most actions require you to pull a weight toward you so you don't really notice the need for quads, but once you go out and do some sports etc, where you do have to push forwards, then you notice a need for them. You do bend your knees forward in lots of athletic movements

I would use full squats as a core movement, and supplement with variations.

 

[t3c]

solid post ccj...thanks

anyone else have opinions on this?

 

[revexrevex]

WHAT DOES IT MATTER TO YOU? YOU CANT DO 135 IN EITHER

POWER

 

[Cuthbert]

wide box squats and front squat combination

 

[NWinters]

I like what ccj says about quads.....Ths is why I like front squats.

 

[edgecrusher]

DO both, as CCJ said Oly squats are great for development. However, you do recieve a different benefit from box squatting and handling higher amounts of weight. Periodization is the key, use both and keep your progress rolling.

 

[SlavikHavik]

Id like to say i know, but really im no authority, that and im really distracted by that house of pain banner right now.

However... from my own personal expierience somewhere between the two has been best. I dont go too wide, narrower than shoulder width, i sit back like a pl squat, however there is a bit of forward movement with my knee, albeit not much.
and as a result of preforming these and working wtih WSB to bring up this squat # my vertical has increased tremedously over the last 3 months. even though ive gained another 10lbs.
Ive had quite a few comments from the guys i practice with comment on how huge my vertical is.

Maybe ill try the Oly squats after my PL meet (something im still deciding on).

Id like to put in some real quadricep work, but im not sure how to do it. Leg extensions dont cut it for me, and i havent found the quad equivilent of a GHR yet... but when i do, itll be in with the rest of the stuff.

ALSO: i used a wide wide stance true PL style squat when i first started lifting... and my vertical didnt go anywhere

so this tells you something.

now does anyone know where i can find more picks of the HOP girls?

 

[kiloamp]

ALSO: i used a wide wide stance true PL style squat when i first started lifting... and my vertical didnt go anywhere

I found the same thing when I was doing powerlifting style squats. My vertical and 40 yard dash time didn't go anywhere for the three years I did them. It was stuck at 28" vertical with a 4.9 second 40. I switched to Olympic lifting and 5 years later at a training camp, my vertical had increased to 35" and 40 went down to 4.6 sec.

I'd say the most important thing for an athete doing squats, more so than style, is accelerating. I had a coach tell me once "it isn't how fast you're moving the bar that matters (talking squating), it's how fast you're trying to lift it." It took me a while to understand what he meant by that statement but I do better understand now that it is as much CNS adaptation as it is muscle hypertrophy. Those clips that CCJ posted showing Botev and Krapati (he's the guy that accelerates so hard with 484 Lbs out of a backsquat that it goes over his head) I think show the ideal way for an athlete to be squating. Shoulder width or slightly wider stance, bar high on shoulders, close hand spacing, arched tight back, head up, down slow, up fast. Since the question was an either or I'd go with the Olympic style squat and use goodmornings and/or GHR to get the additional glut and ham work that a powerlifting style squat would provide. Of course, everything depends on the lifter and how they are training though. Just my opinion.

 

[ffknight84]

wide box squats and front squat combination

exactly what i do, but my legs have grown too much...

 

[b fold the truth]

wide box squats and front squat combination

I was going to say the same thing...

The wide box squats give me the most development in the muscles most important to me. Hips, hams, glutes, erectors, then quads... I like the front squats (light on Sunday's) also.

B True

 

[Hannibal]

anyone else have opinions on this?

I would have to agree that an athlete should do both. However I would concentrate more on the wide stance to parallel, and use the deep oly squats as a supplemental.

The reason for this is that if you can squat 500lbs to parallel in a wide stance...then you will easily squat 250 in the oly version. The converse is not true. A 250 lb oly style squatter would probably get crushed under 500lb...even though he is using the wide stance shorter range of motion. The reason...he doesnt have the UPPER BODY to support it. People seem to forget the importance of the upper body in squatting...and in running and jumping for that matter. Wanna run faster....bring up your rear delts so your arms can move faster.

 

[edgecrusher]

I would have to agree that an athlete should do both. However I would concentrate more on the wide stance to parallel, and use the deep oly squats as a supplemental.

The reason for this is that if you can squat 500lbs to parallel in a wide stance...then you will easily squat 250 in the oly version. The converse is not true. A 250 lb oly style squatter would probably get crushed under 500lb...even though he is using the wide stance shorter range of motion. The reason...he doesnt have the UPPER BODY to support it. People seem to forget the importance of the upper body in squatting...and in running and jumping for that matter. Wanna run faster....bring up your rear delts so your arms can move faster.

I agree w/ most of what you said, except for one part. When I stgarted oly squatting my box squat went up. Not the vice versa. Most of my clients experience the same thing.

 

[slobberknocker]

I see what Hannibal's saying. You'll be handling more total weight with wide box sq. Makes sense to me.

 

[coolcolj]

Yes he would get crushed, but I don't see it making much difference in sports.

The core strength needed in say sprinting is nothing like what you use when squatting. Trust me on this

I wouldn't be too concerned with how much weight is on the bar, it's not importnat. In sports, speed and Rate of force development is king! Most sports actions happen under 0.2 sec, no time for anyone to exert or use max force/strnegth.

 

[edgecrusher]

I wouldn't be too concerned with how much weight is on the bar, it's not importnat. In sports, speed and Rate of force development is king! Most sports actions happen under 0.2 sec, no time for anyone to exert or use max force/strnegth. [/B][/QUOTE]

True, but more weight at a faster rate = higher power output.

 

[t3c]

thanks for all the replies...very interesting

 

[slobberknocker]

I like the avatar, lol.

 

[JOKER47]

I wouldn't be too concerned with how much weight is on the bar, it's not importnat.

Depends on your sport.

Myself, I do below or right at parallel box squats for DE Day, and oly style high-bar squats every other ME Day.

My reasoning is to correct an identified weakness of weak/unconditioned quads while still focusing on posterior chain, primarily. (With regards to my entire routine.)

That, and I don't do traditional front squats very well. But, I may change that with the addition of my log, now.


.02,
Joker

 

[coolcolj]

Well yes you can lift more weight in a partial lift, but are really gaining more benefit than a lighter full ROM movement? I personally don't think so.

And it can probbaly do more harm, ie draining the CNS much more and off course greater injury risk etc

 

[b fold the truth]

Well yes you can lift more weight in a partial lift, but are really gaining more benefit than a lighter full ROM movement? I personally don't think so.

And it can probbaly do more harm, ie draining the CNS much more and off course greater injury risk etc

I see your point...but do agree with the box squats. I, honestly, believe that they are the best squat out there because they do so much good for so many different goals.

Maybe it was my form, but I could only OL full squat for 4 weeks at a time before I either had hip or knee pains. I don't get that with box squats. The box squats have a huge carry over to my deadlifts and events too (which mostly require a strong back side).

I don't consider the box squat a 'partial lift'. I consider the partial squat a partial lift (1/4 squats) but not the box squat. I still go below parallel.

B True

 

[Hannibal]

Yes he would get crushed, but I don't see it making much difference in sports.

Absolute strength not important? Football, wrestling...which sports in general are you talking about?

The core strength needed in say sprinting is nothing like what you use when squatting. Trust me on this

I agree, but the question was parallel wide box squats or oly squats...they both are squats. SO neither are effective for working the abs by your logic. You can choose your ab work as it pertains to your individual goals.

I wouldn't be too concerned with how much weight is on the bar, it's not importnat. In sports, speed and Rate of force development is king! Most sports actions happen under 0.2 sec, no time for anyone to exert or use max force/strnegth.

All things being equal....wouldn't an athlete that could generate maximum force with 350lbs on the bar be more successful than an athlete that could only generate maximum force with 250lbs on the bar. I guarantee if those two were to meet...I know which one I would bet on.

Thats why you train for speed as well as absolute power on two seperate days. A football player better know how to strain for more than 0.2 seconds or he will be on his ass, and then out of a job if he is a pro.

It is rare that you find an athlete in a position where his hips are that far below his knee(like an oly squat)...if so he is already in trouble. Thats why I dont understand emphasizing that position in training when the wider parallel squat will contribute to overall strength so much more effectively. I never said not to do oly squats....but I would do them as a supplemental exercise.

 

[slobberknocker]

Well, if you ask my college's football strength coach, he'd tell you to do neither since "squats are bad for your knees."

 

[Hannibal]

Well, if you ask my college's football strength coach, he'd tell you to do neither since "squats are bad for your knees."

Anything can be bad for you if you don't know what you are doing...

That's just sad really

 

[coolcolj]

Strength work should be general not angle specfic, that's why you work the muscle through a full ROM, because you will never use the exact same angles you squat in when in sports

A lot of people are strong, but they can't apply that strength on the field. One of the few that can would have to be Adam Archuletta. But he doesn't spend more time trying to get stronger. Once you get to a certain strength level getting stronger won't help you on the field, because you can't apply it - your wasting training time looking for more strength. And if you see how he trains, you can see why he can apply more of his strength on the field. It's not just about training fast, there is a lot more to it than that - such as absorbing force and redirecting it. Having a big squat doesn't help you in such areas.

All contact in any sport is very brief, even when pushing someone, you can't really apply all your force for more than a split second, because your constantly shifting your body and angles of direction etc.

All weight training is for an athlete is assitance for his sport. No one will ask you how much you can squat on the field
There are so many instances where people with bigger numbers don't jump, throw etc further than other weaker people. There is a lot more to explosiveness than just squatting fast or heavy.

We could argue all day, but for me full ROM is the way to go.
Strength gained in the stretched positions transfer to the entire ROM. While the reverse doesn't hold true

 

[edgecrusher]

Well, if you ask my college's football strength coach, he'd tell you to do neither since "squats are bad for your knees."

Gotta love those HITters aye Slobber?

 

[b fold the truth]

CCJ: I just watched all the OL clips that you put up the other day and I thank you for them A LOT!!! They will go into my mpeg video library.

I noticed a few things.

When they did full high bar squats OR front squats...they are just as deep or maybe about 1" deeper than my box squats are. My box squats are about 1" below parallel and WSB suggests 2" I believe. I don't see where depth is a real issue in comparison between the OL Squat and the wide stanced box squat on depth...

When the lifters catch the clean or snatch at the bottom in the full squat position...they are closer to the stance width of a wide stance box squat than a close stance OL squat. Well, I'd say that it is somewhere in between the two to be honest.

I know very little about OL lifting (as you know for sure...lol) and I hope that you take note of that.

I have worked with quite a few athletes though and a common weakness that I seen in them is hip strength. Another weakness is the strength of every muscle in the back side of the body. The box squat hits ALL of those muscles. I really can't say that about the OL Squat for myself. Once again...it is just my experience.

Also, I hope that you note that I do box squats, high bar OL squats, wide stanced free squats, and front squats. I believe that ALL of them serve a good and big purpose for the athlete and their development.

Please...give me your thoughts...I'm really interested in what you think.

B True

 

[kiloamp]

When the lifters catch the clean or snatch at the bottom in the full squat position...they are closer to the stance width of a wide stance box squat than a close stance OL squat. Well, I'd say that it is somewhere in between the two to be honest.

B True

Typically an Olympic lifter will backsquat with the stance he uses for the pull and front squat with the stance he uses to catch the weight. So, for the majority of Olympic lifters and there are many exceptions, you will see about shoulder width foot spacing for backsquats and slightly wider for front squats. The wider foot spacing allows for the hips to drop below the ankles necessary for catching the weight low on the heavy ones.

 

[coolcolj]

CCJ: I just watched all the OL clips that you put up the other day and I thank you for them A LOT!!! They will go into my mpeg video library.

I noticed a few things.

When they did full high bar squats OR front squats...they are just as deep or maybe about 1" deeper than my box squats are. My box squats are about 1" below parallel and WSB suggests 2" I believe. I don't see where depth is a real issue in comparison between the OL Squat and the wide stanced box squat on depth...

When the lifters catch the clean or snatch at the bottom in the full squat position...they are closer to the stance width of a wide stance box squat than a close stance OL squat. Well, I'd say that it is somewhere in between the two to be honest.

I know very little about OL lifting (as you know for sure...lol) and I hope that you take note of that.

I have worked with quite a few athletes though and a common weakness that I seen in them is hip strength. Another weakness is the strength of every muscle in the back side of the body. The box squat hits ALL of those muscles. I really can't say that about the OL Squat for myself. Once again...it is just my experience.

Also, I hope that you note that I do box squats, high bar OL squats, wide stanced free squats, and front squats. I believe that ALL of them serve a good and big purpose for the athlete and their development.

Please...give me your thoughts...I'm really interested in what you think.

B True

Well when people look at squat depth they forget the most important thing, joint ROM. You butt maybe as low as the olylifters, but your knee angle is not the same. It's not just the hip angle, its the knee angle as well. Typically when most olylifters do fullsquats, the hip crease will not be much lower than parallel, unless they are really skinny, But the knee angle will be really acute. Also with a wide stance, the ROM is also shortened slightly.
With a box squat one must also lean quite a bit forward to sitback, whereas when one rises out of cleans and snatches you have to be upright and the hips will be closer to the ankles.
Plus in boxsquats the centre of gravity is behind the ankles, so the muscles have to flex forward rather than upwards.
Boxsquats can help pulling power, but because of the double knee rebend in the 2nd pull, again the body is position is actually closer to a high bar squat - knees forward, torso quite upright, centre of gravity slightly forward - except in the snatch where you are quiet bent over forward.

I've put boxsquats forward to CT before, and he says if they did help, elite olylifters would be doing them. There is another guy I know on Dr squat, whose coach knows Louie, and he has taught him box squats. He did try them but found they did not help oly recovery strength.

When you rise from a clean/snatch recovery, it's leg strength, rather than hip strength that's the main factor since your can't really lean to far forward. I would say olylifters are not weak in the hips and posterior chain as a rule, because of the amount of heavy pulls they do. They really are pulling machines, and pulls hit the posterior chain hard. You need strong glutes to pull heavy cleans in the correct body position from the floor. Unlike powerlifting deadlifts, your back has to remain at the same angle, and this requires strong glutes, hams and erectors.

Olysquats don't tax the erectors as hard, but do hit the abs harder becuase of the more upright stance. With the amount of pulls olylifters do this is probbaly a good thing
there are good mornings and other things for that.
Don't forget that Olylifts do quite a bit of heavy drop snatches and frontsquats with the same stance they use for recovery strength.

For myself, I have a big butt and hams from olysquats, even the way I do front squats nail my hams and glutes just as hard as my quads
I just find full squats to be more of a general all rounder that hits all the muscles of the lower body evenly. But that just maybe for my body type, and squatting style who knows. That is appealing in itself, you save time by not having to do different squats etc.

I have dabbled a bit in boxsquats as you may recall. I can't tell if they helped or not. I am willing to try everything once or twice, whatever it takes.

 

[b fold the truth]

Well when people look at squat depth they forget the most important thing, joint ROM. You butt maybe as low as the olylifters, but your knee angle is not the same. It's not just the hip angle, its the knee angle as well. Typically when most olylifters do fullsquats, the hip crease will not be much lower than parallel, unless they are really skinny, But the knee angle will be really acute. Also with a wide stance, the ROM is also shortened slightly.
With a box squat one must also lean quite a bit forward to sitback, whereas when one rises out of cleans and snatches you have to be upright and the hips will be closer to the ankles.
Plus in boxsquats the centre of gravity is behind the ankles, so the muscles have to flex forward rather than upwards.
Boxsquats can help pulling power, but because of the double knee rebend in the 2nd pull, again the body is position is actually closer to a high bar squat - knees forward, torso quite upright, centre of gravity slightly forward - except in the snatch where you are quiet bent over forward.

I've put boxsquats forward to CT before, and he says if they did help, elite olylifters would be doing them. There is another guy I know on Dr squat, whose coach knows Louie, and he has taught him box squats. He did try them but found they did not help oly recovery strength.

When you rise from a clean/snatch recovery, it's leg strength, rather than hip strength that's the main factor since your can't really lean to far forward. I would say olylifters are not weak in the hips and posterior chain as a rule, because of the amount of heavy pulls they do. They really are pulling machines, and pulls hit the posterior chain hard. You need strong glutes to pull heavy cleans in the correct body position from the floor. Unlike powerlifting deadlifts, your back has to remain at the same angle, and this requires strong glutes, hams and erectors.

Olysquats don't tax the erectors as hard, but do hit the abs harder becuase of the more upright stance. With the amount of pulls olylifters do this is probbaly a good thing
there are good mornings and other things for that.
Don't forget that Olylifts do quite a bit of heavy drop snatches and frontsquats with the same stance they use for recovery strength.

For myself, I have a big butt and hams from olysquats, even the way I do front squats nail my hams and glutes just as hard as my quads
I just find full squats to be more of a general all rounder that hits all the muscles of the lower body evenly. But that just maybe for my body type, and squatting style who knows. That is appealing in itself, you save time by not having to do different squats etc.

I have dabbled a bit in boxsquats as you may recall. I can't tell if they helped or not. I am willing to try everything once or twice, whatever it takes.

I can understand now about doing the OL Squats for OL lifters. I just don't have much understanding of the OL lifts and I am sure that you are more than correct about doing the OL squats for OL lifters.

A few more thoughts though...I'm not bent way over when I box squat. Watch Spatts box squat and you can see that she is basically still straight up and down. Cheese bends way over...because of lack of hip strength and flexibility (mostly flexibility from what I can tell). I, for the most part, never bend over on the box squats but do bend (round) my back a little to high bar squat.

As far as depth goes, I can see your point for OL lifters again. Also, I would imagine the raised heel on the OL shoe creates more of a fwd lean and would have a smaller angle from ankle, knee, and hip. Is this really that beneficial for the normal athlete?

I've heard people say that I should high bar squat to help with my stones because I go into such a deep stance, but a lot of strongmen don't when doing the stones. Also, our backs are rounded and the stone/weight is in front and not in back of the body, so we have been doing some front squats. I think it might help. A lot of the stones are hip and ham strength though...strange.

Are you sure that OL squats hit the abs harder? I feel it in my abs A LOT more when I wide stanced squat 500 than when I OL squat 500. I also feel that a belt helps me more on the wide stanced squat than it does on the OL Squat...

I can possibly see how the OL squats put more stress on the quads and do work the legs in a different way. I can also see how the erectors are getting hit hard as an OL lifter because of all the pulls that you do...but for a Strongman and Strength Athlete that T3C is...and because erector strength is important to the Strongman...wouldn't just doing the box squats be a pretty darn good choice?

I still feel that everyone should incorporate the front and back squat into their routine (I sure do) but the base of their routine (unless they are an OL lifter) should be box squats.

Also, I don't mean to give off the impression that my box squat or my OL squat is done with perfect form.

I really appreciate all of your input CCJ...

B True

 

[coolcolj]

A few more thoughts though...I'm not bent way over when I box squat. Watch Spatts box squat and you can see that she is basically still straight up and down. Cheese bends way over...because of lack of hip strength and flexibility (mostly flexibility from what I can tell). I, for the most part, never bend over on the box squats but do bend (round) my back a little to high bar squat.

As far as depth goes, I can see your point for OL lifters again. Also, I would imagine the raised heel on the OL shoe creates more of a fwd lean and would have a smaller angle from ankle, knee, and hip. Is this really that beneficial for the normal athlete?

I've heard people say that I should high bar squat to help with my stones because I go into such a deep stance, but a lot of strongmen don't when doing the stones. Also, our backs are rounded and the stone/weight is in front and not in back of the body, so we have been doing some front squats. I think it might help. A lot of the stones are hip and ham strength though...strange.

Are you sure that OL squats hit the abs harder? I feel it in my abs A LOT more when I wide stanced squat 500 than when I OL squat 500. I also feel that a belt helps me more on the wide stanced squat than it does on the OL Squat...

I can possibly see how the OL squats put more stress on the quads and do work the legs in a different way. I can also see how the erectors are getting hit hard as an OL lifter because of all the pulls that you do...but for a Strongman and Strength Athlete that T3C is...and because erector strength is important to the Strongman...wouldn't just doing the box squats be a pretty darn good choice?

well for me to sitback like that I do have to lean more forward, it's matter of balance. This is relative though, since I'm pretty upright in an oly squat due to the olyshoes.

remeber you don't have to use oly shoes to full squats.
I don't have any problem doing them in chucks. I use to full squat in BBall shoes
You may have some clips of this

The heel raise does lower ankle flexibility requirements and so your upper toso is more upright, but again without the heel your body just bends less at the ankle and more at the hip (more forward lean) to adjust for this, so there isn't any difference either way as far as flexibility and ROM goes. Think of how your body adjusts when you walking uphill and downhill.
I guess I should post a clip of me full squatting in chucks

Well when you pull stones, up it is more or less like a pullthrough in a way. It isn't a strict squat up.

About Oly squats hitting the abs hard - Well I never thought they did, I know front squats do. But when I did those slow eccentric olysquats, man did my abs get real sore the next day, So now I know they do
The more upright the torso the more abs come into play, and vice versa, the more forward lean, the more lower back.
depends on your form I guess. Squatting is so variable. My form changes from sets to set

Olysquats still hit the erectors hard, any sort of movement that require the hips to extend will have have strong erector involment
My erectors get pumped. It's probbaly no different to Box squats
Remeber the bar is very high on the back, that creates a long lever for the lower back to cope with

The only way to see is to try either one for 8 weeks and see the transfer of results and make an informed decision.

 

[b fold the truth]

well for me to sitback like that I do have to lean more forward, it's matter of balance. This is relative though, since I'm pretty upright in an oly squat due to the olyshoes.

remeber you don't have to use oly shoes to full squats.
I don't have any problem doing them in chucks. I use to full squat in BBall shoes
You may have some clips of this

The heel raise does lower ankle flexibility requirements and so your upper toso is more upright, but again without the heel your body just bends less at the ankle and more at the hip (more forward lean) to adjust for this, so there isn't any difference either way as far as flexibility and ROM goes. Think of how your body adjusts when you walking uphill and downhill.
I guess I should post a clip of me full squatting in chucks

Well when you pull stones, up it is more or less like a pullthrough in a way. It isn't a strict squat up.

About Oly squats hitting the abs hard - Well I never thought they did, I know front squats do. But when I did those slow eccentric olysquats, man did my abs get real sore the next day, So now I know they do
The more upright the torso the more abs come into play, and vice versa, the more forward lean, the more lower back.
depends on your form I guess. Squatting is so variable. My form changes from sets to set

Olysquats still hit the erectors hard, any sort of movement that require the hips to extend will have have strong erector involment
My erectors get pumped. It's probbaly no different to Box squats
Remeber the bar is very high on the back, that creates a long lever for the lower back to cope with

The only way to see is to try either one for 8 weeks and see the transfer of results and make an informed decision.

I appreciate the time you take to write all of this to me. I do learn a lot when I ask you questions.

I'll still keep the high bar or front squats every week...they are GREAT exercises...

B True

 

[delldell2]

There is a lot more to explosiveness than just squatting fast or heavy.

So what is more to it than heavy squats and speed squats?

Plyos, oly lifts, and jump squats when appropriate? Is that it?

"1) main sport exercises with added resistance - jumping with weighted vest

2) Assistance exercises
A - maximal strnegth - ie squats, deadlifts etc
B - Rate of force developement - olys, speed squats etc
C - DynamicStrength - light jumpsquats, weighted plyos
D - Stretch shortening cycle - plyos, depth jumps, power jerks etc"

So you work on A constantly up to a certain point (2xbodyweight, etc), but work on B&C concurrently also. At certain times of the year you work on D, but not constantly? Is that correct?

 

[coolcolj]

Look at the CT Conjugate Method mtheod topic on CF forum

But yes more or less, A and B all the time, C cycled in and out, D when peaking

Powerjerks would be lumped in with B as well

 

[dzuljas]

Well, if you ask my college's football strength coach, he'd tell you to do neither since "squats are bad for your knees."

Yeah, I heard that the penn state football program doesnt squat. I know this one guy who is on the track team there and he says the strength coaches dont know whats going on