another question about powerlifting WSB style

[Exodus]

speed days.............. you do box squat for squat, and bench press for bench press but you dont pause.

what if you did floor press and paused for sec, and then exploded back up for 2 reps instead of 3.

can anyone see why that wouldnt work??? becuase my floor press rom is the exact same as my reg bench rom. the bar is touching my shirt on floor pressing???

im curious to see what everyone says, please also provide reasons for your opinions as well.

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[rjl296]

i heard of jim from elitfts doijng just that.
i was thinking of doing it, by my floor press is equivalent to my 1 or 2 board.

i would def. love to hear someone else chime in.

 

[Exodus]

can you post a link or tell me which article???

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[princeton]

go to elitefts.com and do a search on the subject. You should find that they only do bench with a full range of motion on speed days. Speed bench is done very fast, so if you were to do this on floor press you would break your arms. They rotate chains, bands and straight weight. The idea behind speed bench is that you are using a maxiumum force agains a light weight. Ofr example if you were a 400lbs bencher you would use aprox 50% of your max. around 200lbs. you then do three reps as fast as posible with good form You are using 400lbs of presure again 200lbs. The reason for three reps originaly came from 1 rep competion takes about as long as 3 explosive reps. THis is just touching on the subject, there is a lot more science to it. It is an unbelievable way to train if you want to get strong. Nothing is close to it!
hope this helps

 

[Exodus]

go to elitefts.com and do a search on the subject. You should find that they only do bench with a full range of motion on speed days. Speed bench is done very fast, so if you were to do this on floor press you would break your arms. They rotate chains, bands and straight weight. The idea behind speed bench is that you are using a maxiumum force agains a light weight. Ofr example if you were a 400lbs bencher you would use aprox 50% of your max. around 200lbs. you then do three reps as fast as posible with good form You are using 400lbs of presure again 200lbs. The reason for three reps originaly came from 1 rep competion takes about as long as 3 explosive reps. THis is just touching on the subject, there is a lot more science to it. It is an unbelievable way to train if you want to get strong. Nothing is close to it!
hope this helps

its ok your new here. ive been training wsb for a while now, this is my 2nd time in 2 years doing it, i understand everything you posted. i already knew that.

you didnt read my first post though, i ask could you switch the reps down to 2 and work with a pause doing floor presses, instead of doing 3 fast touch and go reps with standard bench.

you wont break your elbows, anymore than you will break your tailbone box squatting, you slow the decent down to get on the box, you would do the same if you were to use floor presses.

anybody else have any reasons, why this would be ineffective, it sounds to me like the exact same as box squatting.

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[bignate73]

i believe its akin to reactive plyometrics. ie bounding. you are developing speed and explosiveness WITH your stretch reflex. just like a pitcher wouldnt pause at the back of his throw, you wouldnt pause at the bottom of the press. i understand the stretch reflex can be held for 1-4 seconds (depending on the lifter) but the key is to train your nervous system to "fire' off. it seems to me that if you were doing a floor press, it would be more starting strength instead of explosive strength.

just my thoughts.

 

[Exodus]

i believe its akin to reactive plyometrics. ie bounding. you are developing speed and explosiveness WITH your stretch reflex. just like a pitcher wouldnt pause at the back of his throw, you wouldnt pause at the bottom of the press. i understand the stretch reflex can be held for 1-4 seconds (depending on the lifter) but the key is to train your nervous system to "fire' off. it seems to me that if you were doing a floor press, it would be more starting strength instead of explosive strength.

just my thoughts.

ok............ now read that paragraph you just wrote again, and tell me what good does box squatting do??? shouldnt then i do speed squats with no box???

im not being rude nate, just looking for answers.

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[spatts]

I do my speed work with a pause, and my speed seems to be progressing much better now. I don't care how fast you are, if you have a mongo case of forearm tendonitis, you aren't going to bench much, and not for long (without "help"). I pause on my sternum and explode up. My arms/elbow don't ache, my shoulder doesn't bother me, and speed is even better now that I don't have to cringe with every rep.

....and no, I wasn't using too much weight. That up and down fast stuff hurt with just the bar in my hands.

 

[princeton]

my bad Exodus, I just figured that out when I read some of your other post. One reason I think you dont want to this instead of bench is because of the speed aspect. The faster you go down the faster you go up. I understand what youre saying about if you do it for squats why can you for bench. I think floor press wuold not benifit you as much as reg bench
you could probably post this question on their Q&A. THe could really tell you why

 

[bignate73]

i agree with you there. but with box squats arent you setting the box just below parallel? and exploding through it. what you are proposing is taking 75% of your ROM and working through that. its explosive partials.

im not saying there is one way to skin a cat, just make sure you are using the right thing for YOU. i say if it helps you make progress go for it!

for ME. i prefer to work full ROM explosively and do my partial movements on Max effort day. since i tend to have trouble out of the bottom of every motion, its imperative that i work explosively out of the bottom. but, if you are finding your trouble midway or higher up, maybe some explosiveness is in order.

just keep in mind F=m/a if the mass is low, then you need alot of acceleration to develop force, your overall ability to develop speed could be hindered with the shorter range of motion.

try it out a few times and see how it helps you.

 

[spatts]

just keep in mind F=m/a if the mass is low, then you need alot of acceleration to develop force, your overall ability to develop speed could be hindered with the shorter range of motion.

Actually Force = Mass times acceleration. Likewise, a=F/m. The lighter the mass the less force required to accelerate.


When we speed squat, we get to the box, stay tight, count "1-1000" and explode back up. I simply do speed bench the same way.

If you did box squats at Westside and did a fast touch and go, Lou would yell at you to have a seat (on the box).

 

[Exodus]

spatts, your my angel........lol

i know what you mean. i have a 315 raw bench and 8-10 sets of 3 reps either "catching the bar" or touching the chest, kills my bicep tendonitis in my left arm.

plus i have never got the aspect of using the box for squats, but free benching.

nate........ true, most wsb trainee's put their box at parallel or below, but you have to remember, parallel is a line that a judge has to see on each individual lifter due to body proportions. on a bench, it has to touch the chest on everyone, a lot less guess work if you see what i mean.

but my floor press, with my thumbs laid out on the bar touching the smooth, the bar actually touches my chest. so it is not a partial for me.

im going to keep reading and make my decision to either do speed on the floor or just pause like spatt's is doing.

spatts, do you see any reason why it would be bad to do on the floor???

i just read a post on the Q&A section of elitefts.com where dave tate says that last year he did a lot of his speed bench press off of either a 1 board or a 2 board.

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[spatts]

I do speed off the floor occassionally, but I like the full ROM work too. Mix it up!

 

[Exodus]

thanks spatts, your a doll.

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[spatts]

Nothing works for everyone all the time. The best you can do is try it for a bit. If you like it, great! If not, change it up.

I did it the other way for over a year. Now I do it this way. Maybe next year there will be another way. As long as my bench goes up, and I'm healthy...

 

[bignate73]

Actually Force = Mass times acceleration. Likewise, a=F/m. The lighter the mass the less force required to accelerate.

oops forgot one part

/ + \ = X

just missed a key stroke to cross my forward slash.

you know what i meant!

 

[Exodus]

Nothing works for everyone all the time. The best you can do is try it for a bit. If you like it, great! If not, change it up.

I did it the other way for over a year. Now I do it this way. Maybe next year there will be another way. As long as my bench goes up, and I'm healthy...

thats what this is all about, finding out what works for you and making gains!!!

i think i will do it, but like every 2nd or 4th week.

i appreciate all replys.

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[thebrute]

speed days.............. you do box squat for squat, and bench press for bench press but you dont pause.

what if you did floor press and paused for sec, and then exploded back up for 2 reps instead of 3.

can anyone see why that wouldnt work??? becuase my floor press rom is the exact same as my reg bench rom. the bar is touching my shirt on floor pressing???

im curious to see what everyone says, please also provide reasons for your opinions as well.

X

hmmm, on floor presses, the bar isn't supposed to touch your chest. it should touch about 2-3 inches above your chest. i would do the speed bench for now for 10x3 and see how that goes. trust me...this does more good than you think. tb

 

[Exodus]

Re: Re: another question about powerlifting WSB style

hmmm, on floor presses, the bar isn't supposed to touch your chest. it should touch about 2-3 inches above your chest. i would do the speed bench for now for 10x3 and see how that goes. trust me...this does more good than you think. tb

yeah the point was not saying that it wont do me good, i know that, but like spatts pointed out, speed touch and go bench with bands or free weight kills my bicep tendonitis.

and im sorry, but my floor press does touch my stomach....... maybe all you guys are slacking and dont have a big enough belly........lol

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[thebrute]

Re: Re: Re: another question about powerlifting WSB style

yeah the point was not saying that it wont do me good, i know that, but like spatts pointed out, speed touch and go bench with bands or free weight kills my bicep tendonitis.

and im sorry, but my floor press does touch my stomach....... maybe all you guys are slacking and dont have a big enough belly........lol

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i though it was the chest..LOL. trust me, i'm not slackin on the floor press..just don't have a big enough stomach!!! i didn't know about the bicep. well in that case, give it a go!!! tb

 

[Exodus]

i think i may give it the best of both worlds..........

1 week speed band bench with a pause.

2nd week floor press with pause, no bands

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[princeton]

"your question really should be "why not pause the bench". The board press would be a partial range movement where the box is a full range motion. This is where some people are mixing things up. The box squat is paused but the hip flexors are really the only area that relaxes. The upperback, lower back ,a bs and everything else are tight and somewhat still in motion.(I am hesitent to say this, because people will start doing rocking box squats. If you have the videos watch the box squats and yuou will see what I mean. There is still motion because of the nature of the exercise. When you pause on the bench too many muscles will have to relax and could lead to injury when you try to explode forcefully into the bar. That would be the first reason. The second reason is quit simple: Louie has tried it and found by not pausing on the chest it worked 100% better, but we have did find if you catch the bar about one inch off your chest the body stays tight and you take away the bounch some people get and build more explosive strength off the chest. The only negative with catching the bar is it can take a toll of some lifters bicep tendons and elbows." quote from DAve TAte at elitefts.com

this may shed some light

 

[spatts]

...and the metal militia guys, some of the strongest benchers in the world, don't train speed at all.

Also, ask Dave, Bob, Jim, and the others what bench style they're using now.

 

[rjl296]

spatts, how many reps are you doing on speed bench- 2 or 3 .
aprox how long does it take to complete them??

 

[JOKER47]

spatts, how many reps are you doing on speed bench- 2 or 3 .
aprox how long does it take to complete them??

I've always understood 3 reps for speed bench, and they should be completed in ~3 secs. 45 secs between sets, 8-10 sets.


If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.


Joker

 

[bignate73]

I've always understood 3 reps for speed bench, and they should be completed in ~3 secs. 45 secs between sets, 8-10 sets.

yep sounds right to me.

 

[BigWh1tey]

Thats the irony Spatts. If you test any experienced MM trainer with a bar loaded to 50% of there shirted max you would find that the bar speed is very high. I would venture to say the only thing that would stop me from hitting the 3 second DE rule for the set would be the full lock out and hold at the top. I'll have Mike time me today W/O holding my lockout and see.
The other dynamic that has changed with WS lifters on DE BP day is that alot of them have dropped there bar weight far below the 50% number. Dave Tate told me he was doing his speed work with 185 with 2 set of chain or a doubled mini. That is considerably less than the 315 or so he should using.
I think that alot of people who do DE work miss the idea of how explosive these reps are supposed to be. Not just fast. The concept of pushing the the 50% bar with 100% force is simple one to understand but more difficult to master. Its should be hard to hold the weight from flying out of your hands at the top and hard to keep your upper back on the pad.

 

[Exodus]

Its should be hard to hold the weight from flying out of your hands at the top and hard to keep your upper back on the pad.

not too sure about the weight flying out of my hand, but sometimes, i do start to come off the pad when im using a lower weight for speed days.

X

 

[Deleted member 33117]

Exodus, clean out your PM box bro.

 

[Exodus]

Exodus, clean out your PM box bro.

done, sorry about that....lol

X

 

[spatts]

I only use 20% of my shirted max (42% of my raw max) and a chain for speed day. I've used that weight for over a year, even while my bench max has gone up over 100 pounds.

If anything, my speed outpaces my strength. Especially in the MM bench style where timing is of the essense. I tend to try to blow through it too fast rather than taking advatage of the bar speed that comes naturally with proper form.

 

[Liftbig]

yeah, i dont use alot of weight compared to my best bench. im still using roughly the same weight on speed days to bench 600 as i did when i benched 500. id say its a better guage to base your weights off your RAW max, and not your shirted max. i do about 40-50% of a raw max for speed day bench.

 

[Exodus]

im using about 40% of my raw max with the mini's double choked

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[rjl296]

spatts, how many reps are you doing on speed bench- 2 or 3 .
aprox how long does it take to complete them??

okay, i know how long its supposed to take, but spatts says she pauses , so im assuming thats gonna add some time to her sets, no??

 

[spatts]

When I am in a competition I have to pause. I don't get to use reversal stength. So, I train for speed from the same perspective. If I do speed sets the "normal" way, it's just under 3 seconds. My goals is just like a person running a 40; you don't want the first part to be really slow and then get faster as you get toward the end. You want to fire out of the hole and generate even more speed from there. So I try to make my a2 - a1 lower.

 

[Exodus]

My goals is just like a person running a 40; you don't want the first part to be really slow and then get faster as you get toward the end. You want to fire out of the hole and generate even more speed from there. So I try to make my a2 - a1 lower.

forgive my ignorance, but you lost me with your advanced knowledge of sprinting......... i dont get the last sentence

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[Liftbig]

guys, i wouldnt worry about the 3 second thing. ive never timed my sets, never will. the only thing you need to worry about if your gonna do speed bench, is acceleration. like spatts said, fast off the chest and faster at lockout. this reminds me alot of throwing the shot or disc, if you start out fast and get slower you wont throw far, if you start out slow and get faster you will throw father than before, if you start out fast and get faster you will throw the farthest.

 

[spatts]

Basically I try not to have a speed deficiency. I want to fire out of the hole fast and just keep getting faster as I push through it, as opposed to firing fast and then slowing down at lockout, or firing slow and increase speed at lockout.

Also, on speed day I sometimes used to tailor my accessory work to my speed weakness. I used to be very fast on the lockout, but was slow to start. So that day I would work on doing my shoulder accessory work fast on the concentric.

 

[Exodus]

Basically I try not to have a speed deficiency. I want to fire out of the hole fast and just keep getting faster as I push through it, as opposed to firing fast and then slowing down at lockout, or firing slow and increase speed at lockout.

gotcha......... i think my medicine ball throws have been helping out with this, i can accelerate like a shot put and push threw lockout, without worring about my elbows.

thanks guys, this has really been a very informative thread.

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[rjl296]

thanks

 

[bignate73]

my problem is that when im at lockout, i actually come up off the bench. is that normal? seems like i could break form.

 

[Exodus]

my problem is that when im at lockout, i actually come up off the bench. is that normal? seems like i could break form.

i know coming off the bench is bad, but you should shove so hard that you feel like your going too.

i think the reason why is because your continuing to accelerate all the way threw the lift, which is not a bad thing, but it can do damage on your elbows.

im guessing of course.

X

 

[thebrute]

my problem is that when im at lockout, i actually come up off the bench. is that normal? seems like i could break form.

i'm afraid that isn't normal. in competition that will nail you with a "red" light because of you coming off the bench. i would practice form more and are you familiar with metal militia? if you are, you should be arching like them. i had the same issue when SB told me to work on my form more and it helped. tb

 

[bignate73]

i arch like MM. problem is that i lock out hard (speed work) and come up off the bench a bit. like a bounce. i dont move when doing heavy work. just speed work.

 

[thebrute]

then, work on that form during speed work. try to keep your ass on the bench by pullin your feet back even further. this was how i got around my issue of this. tb

 

[Exodus]

then, work on that form during speed work. try to keep your ass on the bench by pullin your feet back even further. this was how i got around my issue of this. tb

he's not talking about his ass brute, its his upper back thats coming off.

its like this. bar's on your chest......... shove up to full lockout..... ass stays as pivit on bench and your upper body comes up like your starting a sit up.

i had a bad problem with these when i first did wsb.

X

 

[bignate73]

he's not talking about his ass brute, its his upper back thats coming off.

its like this. bar's on your chest......... shove up to full lockout..... ass stays as pivit on bench and your upper body comes up like your starting a sit up.

i had a bad problem with these when i first did wsb.

X

yep exactly. since i switched up and got a bigger arch, my ass is planted. its my upper back that bounces now just from the press. i gotta tinker with it.

 

[thebrute]

he's not talking about his ass brute, its his upper back thats coming off.

its like this. bar's on your chest......... shove up to full lockout..... ass stays as pivit on bench and your upper body comes up like your starting a sit up.

i had a bad problem with these when i first did wsb.

X

wow...that's an odd case there. hmmmm. where is the bar traveling? are you driving the traps into the bench? tb

 

[Exodus]

wow...that's an odd case there. hmmmm. where is the bar traveling? are you driving the traps into the bench? tb

thats what the problem is, if your flying off the bench, your not driving your legs hard enough.

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[Liftbig]

if your upper back comes off the bench, you probably arent using enough weight.

 

[bignate73]

if your upper back comes off the bench, you probably arent using enough weight.

LOL. i always think that too. hehe.

thats what the problem is, if your flying off the bench, your not driving your legs hard enough.

good call! i think i'll try it since tonight is DE upper. i'll let you guys know.

 

[Exodus]

LOL. i always think that too. hehe.





good call! i think i'll try it since tonight is DE upper. i'll let you guys know.

nate, do you use bands......... yes or no......... and whats your 1 rep max and what weight do you use on de bench??

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[bignate73]

ive used bands in the past a bit. not right now though.

my 1RM is 295, im using 175.

 

[thebrute]

thats what the problem is, if your flying off the bench, your not driving your legs hard enough.

X

that's what my thought was X. tb

 

[Exodus]

ive used bands in the past a bit. not right now though.

my 1RM is 295, im using 175.

thats about right, NOW DRIVE THOSE LEGS!!!

lol

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[BigWh1tey]

I did 7 reps with 225 in about 5 seconds, i forgot to count @275 , but my 315 was like 3 one thousands and my 365 was about the same.

 

[thebrute]

I did 7 reps with 225 in about 5 seconds, i forgot to count @275 , but my 315 was like 3 one thousands and my 365 was about the same.

wow...wish i could do that!! that's awesome!! tb

 

[BigWh1tey]

wow...wish i could do that!! that's awesome!! tb

By Nazareth standards my lifts are ant shit.

 

[Mike_Rojas]

By Nazareth standards my lifts are ant shit.

Then mine are subatomic - or maybe ok for a 12 year old girl.

 

[princeton]

my max is 315 and I use 135 on SB

 

[Exodus]

my max is 315 and I use 135 on SB

princeton....... thats seems just a little light for 315 if your not using bands...........

but then again, i have been thinking about reducing my weight on speed days, does using that weight help you out on max days???

X