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"Dan Henderson hit Wanderlei with a single shot with 4 oz gloves. This is a "testament" to his chin?"
I'm not sure what you are asking me. I used Dan Henderson as a comparison for the chins of Anderson and Vanderlei because Henderson with the same 4 oz. gloves hit both Vanderlei and Anderson flush. The end result was Vanderlei got KO'd from the same strike and Anderson came forward and beat Henderson down immediately afterwards, hence Anderson took a similar shot that dropped Vanderlei, hence my evidence Anderson has a more durable chin that Vanderlei.
"What about the 20 wins in a row he racked up? What about the vale tudo career?"
Vanderlei never won 20 fights in a row. His longest winning streak is 8 fights in a row. His Vale Tudo fights were against scrubs, except for perhaps Mike Van Arsdale. He is 5-1 in Vale Tudo. Have you ever heard of Egidio da Costa, Sean Bormet, Marcelo Barbosa, or Dilson Filho? He lost one by TKO there too to the obscure Artur Mariano. When he first stepped into the octagon, he was KO'd by Vitor Belfort in 44 seconds. The next high ranking UFC star he fought, Tito Ortiz, he once again lost.
"Anderson was defeated with flying lock. Do you really think he would ever have defeated sakuraba? Could he beat Quinton Jackson?"
Vanderlei has lost against worse opposition such as Artur Mariano. I think Anderson would have defeated Sakuraba. Sakuraba was a very good fighter, but also a lot of hype. Sakuraba excelled at beating grapplers, but generally lost when facing good strikers. Vovchanchin TKO'd him, as did Cro Cop. Melvin Manhoef KO'd him and Antonio Schembri, a one dimensional grappler, even KO'd him. In regards to Quinton Jackson, I do not know if Anderson could defeat him. I would consider that potentially an excellent fight and certainly would not consider Anderson winning unlikely.
I don't understand why you are creating a bunch of straw man arguments. I understand Henderson is not anderlei Silva. I compared the difference in reactions to strikes from the common recent opponent in the best attempt to standardize conditions. I didn't mention the Cro-Cop fight as being a "testament to the weakness of Wanderlei's chin" I stated that getting KO'd by Cro-cop is not a testament to the strength of Vandelei's chin: "Vanderlei was absolutely beat down by Cro Cop, who KO'd him in the first round, hence that is no testament to the durability of his chin." Check the weigh in stats for the fight. Vanderlei outweighed Cro Cop by 4 pounds: Pride OWGP weigh-ins - Bodybuilding.com Forums so your assumption about a weight differential is inverted as Vanderlei was the bigger man in this fight. Once again you don't have your facts straight.
"The crux of the matter for me is this: Anderson has been matched up with people who havent given him reason to pause with that very confident stand up style. Henderson is not Wanderlei. Until he fights such a striker that stands in front of him with broad shoulders like a wall, ready to strike back with true power every time he seeks to strike, this discussion is mute."
Your assumption about Anderson not standing in front of broad shouldered strikers is completely false. Rich Franklin, only once defeated before Anderson, is a natural light heavy that has won over half of his matches by TKO or KO. Anderson recently moved up in weight and KO'd James Irvin, an absolute muscular marvel with KO power. I've personally trained with Jorge Rivera and he is huge at 185 and Anderson KO'd him. Many of Anderson's victories are against strikers throughout his career, and with the exception of Luis Azeredo and Lee Murray they were all KO'd or TKO'd. Hard hitting strikers do counter Anderson periodically, he just counters them back harder.
"Last, to state that a rear naked choke isn't easy to procure is almost unbelievable to me. BJJ beginners are always able to "roll" with at leat the basice rear and guillotine chokes. Sure it is defendable, but that doesnt mean Anderson showed great skill in applying it. His opponent was simply Beaten up. He was beaten up by strikes, not defeated by the "versatility" of AS's grappling ability. What say you?"
I say you have a flimsy undestanding of grappling. Certainly a white belt can get rear naked choke on another white belt. Will that same white belt be able to outchoke a purple belt if we standardize the conditions and allow a rear naked choke be the only allowable submission? My answer is no. It's all in the set ups and skill of positioning, not the submission itself: BJJ 101.
I never made any claims to Anderson's versatility, you made claims against his versatility. For the sake of argument though, Anderson has triangled Travis Lutter for a submission win after escaping an arm bar attempt and Travis is an Abu Dhabi quality submission wrestler with almost 80% of his winning record composed of victories by submission. If you mean to imply Vanderlei is more versatile than Anderson you need to realize that Vanderlei has only submitted Bob Schriber who has lost over 60% of his fights by submission and that was back in 2000.
"W took shots from Quinton, particularly in one of them. Quinton knocked out Liddell, et.c So by your syllogistic reasoning (which NEVER works in MMA, since matchups of individuals are so meaningful) Wanderlei has a great chin."
You're facts are once again in error. You are initiating the syllogisms, not I. You made the initial claims defining Vanderlei's chin as greater than Anderson's by virtue of unlike competition: "I cant say I agree with you, my friend. Anderson hasn't proved he has the better chin. He hasn't fought people like Liddell and Jackso, much less gone toe to toe and taken the best they have to offer like Wanderlei. He certainly hasnt gone with heavyweights like Cro Cop and Hunt like W has. That aggressive, loose style of Anderson might change rather quickly once engaged with someone of the COMBINED quickness and power of W. Did you notice Liddell's assertiveness fade after the beginning of the fight, when he W backed up into the cage and Liddell chased him all the way across only to find a fierce combination waiting for him? I'm not familiar with any battles that have tested Anderson, perhaps I'm wrong?". I then criticized inaccuracies your syllogistic argument and defined the comparative sturdiness of Anderson's and Vanderlei's chin by virtue of a common opponent. I then gave supporting evidence since you admitted your ignorance when you stated, "I'm not familiar with any battles that have tested Anderson, perhaps I'm wrong?". Yes, you are wrong here and no, Vanderlei does not have a great chin. He has a better than average chin. If Vanderlei had a great chin he wouldn't have lost 1/8 of his fights by TKO and KO. If he had a great chin he would lose a lower ratio of his fights by TKO and KO perhaps resembling the 0/0 TKO and KO losses for Anderson.
I'm not sure what you are asking me. I used Dan Henderson as a comparison for the chins of Anderson and Vanderlei because Henderson with the same 4 oz. gloves hit both Vanderlei and Anderson flush. The end result was Vanderlei got KO'd from the same strike and Anderson came forward and beat Henderson down immediately afterwards, hence Anderson took a similar shot that dropped Vanderlei, hence my evidence Anderson has a more durable chin that Vanderlei.
"What about the 20 wins in a row he racked up? What about the vale tudo career?"
Vanderlei never won 20 fights in a row. His longest winning streak is 8 fights in a row. His Vale Tudo fights were against scrubs, except for perhaps Mike Van Arsdale. He is 5-1 in Vale Tudo. Have you ever heard of Egidio da Costa, Sean Bormet, Marcelo Barbosa, or Dilson Filho? He lost one by TKO there too to the obscure Artur Mariano. When he first stepped into the octagon, he was KO'd by Vitor Belfort in 44 seconds. The next high ranking UFC star he fought, Tito Ortiz, he once again lost.
"Anderson was defeated with flying lock. Do you really think he would ever have defeated sakuraba? Could he beat Quinton Jackson?"
Vanderlei has lost against worse opposition such as Artur Mariano. I think Anderson would have defeated Sakuraba. Sakuraba was a very good fighter, but also a lot of hype. Sakuraba excelled at beating grapplers, but generally lost when facing good strikers. Vovchanchin TKO'd him, as did Cro Cop. Melvin Manhoef KO'd him and Antonio Schembri, a one dimensional grappler, even KO'd him. In regards to Quinton Jackson, I do not know if Anderson could defeat him. I would consider that potentially an excellent fight and certainly would not consider Anderson winning unlikely.
I don't understand why you are creating a bunch of straw man arguments. I understand Henderson is not anderlei Silva. I compared the difference in reactions to strikes from the common recent opponent in the best attempt to standardize conditions. I didn't mention the Cro-Cop fight as being a "testament to the weakness of Wanderlei's chin" I stated that getting KO'd by Cro-cop is not a testament to the strength of Vandelei's chin: "Vanderlei was absolutely beat down by Cro Cop, who KO'd him in the first round, hence that is no testament to the durability of his chin." Check the weigh in stats for the fight. Vanderlei outweighed Cro Cop by 4 pounds: Pride OWGP weigh-ins - Bodybuilding.com Forums so your assumption about a weight differential is inverted as Vanderlei was the bigger man in this fight. Once again you don't have your facts straight.
"The crux of the matter for me is this: Anderson has been matched up with people who havent given him reason to pause with that very confident stand up style. Henderson is not Wanderlei. Until he fights such a striker that stands in front of him with broad shoulders like a wall, ready to strike back with true power every time he seeks to strike, this discussion is mute."
Your assumption about Anderson not standing in front of broad shouldered strikers is completely false. Rich Franklin, only once defeated before Anderson, is a natural light heavy that has won over half of his matches by TKO or KO. Anderson recently moved up in weight and KO'd James Irvin, an absolute muscular marvel with KO power. I've personally trained with Jorge Rivera and he is huge at 185 and Anderson KO'd him. Many of Anderson's victories are against strikers throughout his career, and with the exception of Luis Azeredo and Lee Murray they were all KO'd or TKO'd. Hard hitting strikers do counter Anderson periodically, he just counters them back harder.
"Last, to state that a rear naked choke isn't easy to procure is almost unbelievable to me. BJJ beginners are always able to "roll" with at leat the basice rear and guillotine chokes. Sure it is defendable, but that doesnt mean Anderson showed great skill in applying it. His opponent was simply Beaten up. He was beaten up by strikes, not defeated by the "versatility" of AS's grappling ability. What say you?"
I say you have a flimsy undestanding of grappling. Certainly a white belt can get rear naked choke on another white belt. Will that same white belt be able to outchoke a purple belt if we standardize the conditions and allow a rear naked choke be the only allowable submission? My answer is no. It's all in the set ups and skill of positioning, not the submission itself: BJJ 101.
I never made any claims to Anderson's versatility, you made claims against his versatility. For the sake of argument though, Anderson has triangled Travis Lutter for a submission win after escaping an arm bar attempt and Travis is an Abu Dhabi quality submission wrestler with almost 80% of his winning record composed of victories by submission. If you mean to imply Vanderlei is more versatile than Anderson you need to realize that Vanderlei has only submitted Bob Schriber who has lost over 60% of his fights by submission and that was back in 2000.
"W took shots from Quinton, particularly in one of them. Quinton knocked out Liddell, et.c So by your syllogistic reasoning (which NEVER works in MMA, since matchups of individuals are so meaningful) Wanderlei has a great chin."
You're facts are once again in error. You are initiating the syllogisms, not I. You made the initial claims defining Vanderlei's chin as greater than Anderson's by virtue of unlike competition: "I cant say I agree with you, my friend. Anderson hasn't proved he has the better chin. He hasn't fought people like Liddell and Jackso, much less gone toe to toe and taken the best they have to offer like Wanderlei. He certainly hasnt gone with heavyweights like Cro Cop and Hunt like W has. That aggressive, loose style of Anderson might change rather quickly once engaged with someone of the COMBINED quickness and power of W. Did you notice Liddell's assertiveness fade after the beginning of the fight, when he W backed up into the cage and Liddell chased him all the way across only to find a fierce combination waiting for him? I'm not familiar with any battles that have tested Anderson, perhaps I'm wrong?". I then criticized inaccuracies your syllogistic argument and defined the comparative sturdiness of Anderson's and Vanderlei's chin by virtue of a common opponent. I then gave supporting evidence since you admitted your ignorance when you stated, "I'm not familiar with any battles that have tested Anderson, perhaps I'm wrong?". Yes, you are wrong here and no, Vanderlei does not have a great chin. He has a better than average chin. If Vanderlei had a great chin he wouldn't have lost 1/8 of his fights by TKO and KO. If he had a great chin he would lose a lower ratio of his fights by TKO and KO perhaps resembling the 0/0 TKO and KO losses for Anderson.
