Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below Skinny Ninja
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I can't name one mma fighter that can kick like he can. Unquestionably the most fun to watch, and in my opinion best p4p in the world.
Anderson Silva best p4p fighter in the World
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ALIN
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Skinny Ninja said:
He looks un-stoppable right now.
Ralph_Wiggum
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1. I think GSP is better than Silva.
2. I think Hendo would win best out of 5 matches w/ Silva.
3. While on the subject of Hendo: I think he is a better p4p fighter, seeing as he won the title in the LHW division where guys had 30+ pounds on him.
4. I think Lutter would win 1-2 fights if he went best of 5 w/ Silva. Lutter could have won the fight against Silva had he not given up mount by going for a poor armbar.
5. A. Silva is definitely a great fighter who can end any fight quickly, sending the other fighter to the facial surgeon. He is just not top p4p fighter IMO. That is just the UFC's marketing TP's for right now.
2. I think Hendo would win best out of 5 matches w/ Silva.
3. While on the subject of Hendo: I think he is a better p4p fighter, seeing as he won the title in the LHW division where guys had 30+ pounds on him.
4. I think Lutter would win 1-2 fights if he went best of 5 w/ Silva. Lutter could have won the fight against Silva had he not given up mount by going for a poor armbar.
5. A. Silva is definitely a great fighter who can end any fight quickly, sending the other fighter to the facial surgeon. He is just not top p4p fighter IMO. That is just the UFC's marketing TP's for right now.
GSP and Anderson Silva have similar dominating performances against a similar caliber of fighters. The biggest difference I see when rating GSP and Silva is most recent performances. GSP was TKO'd by Serra and lost his belt. Silva keeps dominating everyone put in front of him and still holds his middleweight belt. The supposed near loss to Lutter, who didn't even make weight for the fight, isn't as much a blemish as getting TKO'd by Serra. That puts Silva higher in the P4P ratings.
Perhaps Hendo could take a best of 5 series with Silva, but that is pure speculation. What is known is that Hendo is 0-1 against Silva.
Item 3 places Silva even further up the P4P chart as he beat Hendo, hence he beat a guy who competes at Light-heavy (more pounds for the P4P formula). We have yet to see GSP beat a middleweight and he lost to a guy who usually competes at lightweight (Serra).
Hendo did not routinely defeat men 30+ lbs. larger than him in the Pride middleweight division. He defeated men that may have had at max 15 pounds on him. If he competed in Pride's middleweight division as a welterweight he would have weighed in at 185. A 30 lb. difference would put his competition at 215 lbs which is heavyweight. The only 30+ lbs. difference fight he competed in was vs. Big Nog and Hendo lost.
Perhaps Hendo could take a best of 5 series with Silva, but that is pure speculation. What is known is that Hendo is 0-1 against Silva.
Item 3 places Silva even further up the P4P chart as he beat Hendo, hence he beat a guy who competes at Light-heavy (more pounds for the P4P formula). We have yet to see GSP beat a middleweight and he lost to a guy who usually competes at lightweight (Serra).
Hendo did not routinely defeat men 30+ lbs. larger than him in the Pride middleweight division. He defeated men that may have had at max 15 pounds on him. If he competed in Pride's middleweight division as a welterweight he would have weighed in at 185. A 30 lb. difference would put his competition at 215 lbs which is heavyweight. The only 30+ lbs. difference fight he competed in was vs. Big Nog and Hendo lost.
Ralph_Wiggum
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You don't think Rampage had 30 pounds on Hendo? The guy is huge.
Ralph_Wiggum said:
Probably not. Hendo and Rampage both weighed in at 204 for their fight according to the UFC scales. Assuming Hendo did not weight cut and Rampage did, Rampage would have to have cut down from 235 to 204, then reconstitute back to 235 within a 24 hour period to have such a vast weight advantage. That is a huge weight cut. Rampage fought hard through 5 rounds, which is not indicative of the stamina drain caused a massive weight cut.
scotty42677
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P4P Matt Hughs
Djimbe said:
Cheik Congo is improving vastly. I remember not too long ago he was getting tooled by Carmen Morera (?) for lack of ground game. He's to the point where on the ground he doesn't appear lost.
In reference to Matt Hughes, it seems like team Miletich in general has taken a bit of a stumble. Who is currently on their roster poised to bring them glory? American Top Team seems to be coming on strong as is Greg Jackson's team down in New Mexico.
shottabiggs
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Cheick Kongo got tooled again by Heath Herring.
chaos13 said:
At this point he's lowered in the rankings due to inactivity. It's hard to call a guy over-rated who has won almost every professional fight he's been in at the elite level including all of his #1 contenders. He thrashed Nog when Nog was considered #1. He beat Cro-cop when Cro-cop was a feared force. There have only been a handful of times when Fedor has been in trouble and he's always come back to prevail. I think his only loss was to Tsyoshi Kohsaka from a cut caused by a headbut back in his "Rings" day. In the return bout, he absolutely destroyed Kohsaka. Nobody in the heavyweight division has quite a similar resume.
With his convincing victories that avenged his two losses, I would have to say
GSP is on top right now. A rubber match victory with Serra would make it almost without question.
GSP is on top right now. A rubber match victory with Serra would make it almost without question.
GSP is one of the best p4p fighter out there. I also think Rampage is underrated. Silva is good, but he's not the best. I prefer GSP over him.
the_alcatraz said:
Rampage looks like he may have gone to the next level in terms of performance. He needs to avenge his defeat to Wanderlei which is entirely possible given that Wanderlei is in the UFC now. The unfortunate thing with Silva and GSP is that they are running low on competition. I think Jon Fitch is the only real contender left for GSP to beat. I don't know who is left for Silva. That's why I am a big advocate of GSP moving up in a superfight against Silva. GSP has the type of ground game that could give Silva hell. Silva has the standup style that can make GSP really pay if GSP comes in pitter-pattering.
southpaw447
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I think the talent GSP has faced is better than Anderson.
GSP has had more consistency.
Anderson has had some pretty embarrassing losses. Takase in particular.
Anderson is also in a shallow division talent wise.
GSP takes #1 P4P, IMO
GSP has had more consistency.
Anderson has had some pretty embarrassing losses. Takase in particular.
Anderson is also in a shallow division talent wise.
GSP takes #1 P4P, IMO
southpaw447 said:
I take issue with your analysis of Silva and the UFC middleweight division. Silva's last loss was in 2006 by DQ to Yushin Okami because Silva KO'd Okami with an illegal kick. GSP got KO'd by Matt Serra, a puffed up lightweight, in early 2007 as his last loss. The best welterweight win for GSP is Matt Hughes. Two of GSP's biggest victories, Sherk and Penn, were against puffed up lightweights, not true welterweights.
In recent times Anderson has crushed Rich Franklin, a champ as dominant as Hughes, twice. He tooled Dan Henderson, a dominant and former Pride light-heavyweight champion. He easily thrashed Nathan Marquardt, former King of Pancrase. The Takase loss was back in 2003, over 5 years ago. The flying heel hook loss to Chonan was 3.5 years ago and he was putting a beating on Chonan until that hail mary submission. In his current state Anderson does not resemble the fighter he was back in Pride. He's been consistently demolishing all opposition excepting a flakey DQ loss since mid 2005. He's also beaten guys who have fought very successfully at lightheavy like Rich Franklin and Dan Henderson. GSP has never beaten anyone from a heavier weight-class.
My main arguments for Anderson ranking higher are: his inconsistency is from years past, the competition in his weightclass is as stiff as GSP's, and Anderson has dominated high level competitors from higher weight classes which GSP has not done. Some of GSP's more impressive victories are from guys who fight at lightweight which when factoring P4P reduces their significance.
southpaw447
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I find the fact that you consider Rich Franklin as dominant as Hughes quite hilarious. He had 1 title defense against Loiseau who BTW, sucks hard right now.
Dan Henderson has never impressed me as a Middleweight. He's had most of his success at LHW and @ MW he was having trouble with Bustamante in both of their fights.
Wether they are "puffed up" as you like to call them doesn't take away from the fact that GSP has beat 2 former and 1 current world champion.
Matt Hughes x2
Sean Sherk (whom he took down with ease)
BJ Penn
Everyone he has beaten with the exception of Jay Heiron and Jason Miller were top 10 material before he beat them down and let me remind you that he won the title at only 24 years old.
Nobody cares about fighting people who have fought at higher weights, thats why they have these things called WEIGHT CLASSES
Dan Henderson has never impressed me as a Middleweight. He's had most of his success at LHW and @ MW he was having trouble with Bustamante in both of their fights.
Wether they are "puffed up" as you like to call them doesn't take away from the fact that GSP has beat 2 former and 1 current world champion.
Matt Hughes x2
Sean Sherk (whom he took down with ease)
BJ Penn
Everyone he has beaten with the exception of Jay Heiron and Jason Miller were top 10 material before he beat them down and let me remind you that he won the title at only 24 years old.
Nobody cares about fighting people who have fought at higher weights, thats why they have these things called WEIGHT CLASSES
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"I find the fact that you consider Rich Franklin as dominant as Hughes quite hilarious. He had 1 title defense against Loiseau who BTW, sucks hard right now."
Yes. On reviewing the record, Franklin had fewer successful defenses than Hughes. I was counting most of his UFC victories as title defenses. Franklin was however 18-1 overall before losing to Anderson, his only loss at light heavy, not middleweight, to Machida. He was undefeated at middleweight. You are incorrect about Franklin's title defenses though as he also starched Quarry in a title defense.
"Dan Henderson has never impressed me as a Middleweight. He's had most of his success at LHW and @ MW he was having trouble with Bustamante in both of their fights."
You are completely incorrect that Henderson's success is mainly at Lightheavy. 4 of his 7 losses are at lightheavy, only 2 are at middleweight. At light-heavy Dan lost against most of his ranked competitors. It doesn't matter if you are impressed or not in my P4P ranking system. What matters primarily is accumulated victories against quality opposition and the fashion in which you win within your weight class. Henderson accumulates wins against very high competition. There is no shame to being tested by Bustamante as he is the former UFC middleweight champion and very capable of beating any high level middleweight competitor and has achieved those ends with easy victories over top competitors like Matt Lindland. Also I take issue with your analysis that Bustamante gave Henderson trouble in their fist match. Henderson KO'd Bustamante in under a minute. Henderson was never having trouble in that bout.
Wether they are "puffed up" as you like to call them doesn't take away from the fact that GSP has beat 2 former and 1 current world champion.
It does take away from the victory because the victories are against competitors from a lighter weight class, hence a reduction in the P4P value of the victory.
"Matt Hughes x2
"Sean Sherk (whom he took down with ease)"-Not a wrestling match. A natural lightweight.
"BJ Penn"- A questionable split decision.
"Everyone he has beaten with the exception of Jay Heiron and Jason Miller were top 10 material before he beat them down and let me remind you that he won the title at only 24 years old."
Everyone he has beaten excepting Heiron and Miller have not been top 10 material. Ivan Menjivar was not top 10 material, neither was Justin Bruckmann, nor Travis Gailbraith, nor Thomas Denny, nor Pete Spratt, not Karo Parysian, nor Dave Strasser, nor Matt Serra when Serra KOd him, nor Josh Koscheck.
"Nobody cares about fighting people who have fought at higher weights, thats why they have these things called WEIGHT CLASSES"
You mean you do not care and need to appeal to the nameless masses as if popular consensus makes something true. You are wrong anyways. Established P4P rankings take that factor into account. Beating fighters that customarily fight at higher weights means that they are bigger fighters, hence higher poundages in relation to the lower weight competitor, hence a higher value in a P4P factor ranking for that victory. Why do you shake a finger in my face for rationalizing that puffed up lightweights reduce the P4P value of a victory, then try to claim age makes a difference? It's P4P ranking, not age 4 age ranking.
I'm ears if you can propose a better P4P ranking system than rating victories and losses adjusted for relative weights.
Yes. On reviewing the record, Franklin had fewer successful defenses than Hughes. I was counting most of his UFC victories as title defenses. Franklin was however 18-1 overall before losing to Anderson, his only loss at light heavy, not middleweight, to Machida. He was undefeated at middleweight. You are incorrect about Franklin's title defenses though as he also starched Quarry in a title defense.
"Dan Henderson has never impressed me as a Middleweight. He's had most of his success at LHW and @ MW he was having trouble with Bustamante in both of their fights."
You are completely incorrect that Henderson's success is mainly at Lightheavy. 4 of his 7 losses are at lightheavy, only 2 are at middleweight. At light-heavy Dan lost against most of his ranked competitors. It doesn't matter if you are impressed or not in my P4P ranking system. What matters primarily is accumulated victories against quality opposition and the fashion in which you win within your weight class. Henderson accumulates wins against very high competition. There is no shame to being tested by Bustamante as he is the former UFC middleweight champion and very capable of beating any high level middleweight competitor and has achieved those ends with easy victories over top competitors like Matt Lindland. Also I take issue with your analysis that Bustamante gave Henderson trouble in their fist match. Henderson KO'd Bustamante in under a minute. Henderson was never having trouble in that bout.
Wether they are "puffed up" as you like to call them doesn't take away from the fact that GSP has beat 2 former and 1 current world champion.
It does take away from the victory because the victories are against competitors from a lighter weight class, hence a reduction in the P4P value of the victory.
"Matt Hughes x2
"Sean Sherk (whom he took down with ease)"-Not a wrestling match. A natural lightweight.
"BJ Penn"- A questionable split decision.
"Everyone he has beaten with the exception of Jay Heiron and Jason Miller were top 10 material before he beat them down and let me remind you that he won the title at only 24 years old."
Everyone he has beaten excepting Heiron and Miller have not been top 10 material. Ivan Menjivar was not top 10 material, neither was Justin Bruckmann, nor Travis Gailbraith, nor Thomas Denny, nor Pete Spratt, not Karo Parysian, nor Dave Strasser, nor Matt Serra when Serra KOd him, nor Josh Koscheck.
"Nobody cares about fighting people who have fought at higher weights, thats why they have these things called WEIGHT CLASSES"
You mean you do not care and need to appeal to the nameless masses as if popular consensus makes something true. You are wrong anyways. Established P4P rankings take that factor into account. Beating fighters that customarily fight at higher weights means that they are bigger fighters, hence higher poundages in relation to the lower weight competitor, hence a higher value in a P4P factor ranking for that victory. Why do you shake a finger in my face for rationalizing that puffed up lightweights reduce the P4P value of a victory, then try to claim age makes a difference? It's P4P ranking, not age 4 age ranking.
I'm ears if you can propose a better P4P ranking system than rating victories and losses adjusted for relative weights.
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I think Anderson is great, but not the best.GSP sure is working his way to being P4P.
I would agree with Jacob Fedor is losing rank due to inactivity, and I'm a fan of watching Fedor.
I would agree with Jacob Fedor is losing rank due to inactivity, and I'm a fan of watching Fedor.
Are you guys aware that Anderson is moving up to 205 to fight James Irvin? He's coming after light-heavy title now.
Yes, I did and I would take Anderson 2win.
VoegelinianPlatonist
New member
Its hard to think of someone more successful than Wanderlei Silva. He is probably on eof the few who have actually fought many over his weight and size. He lost to Hunt, but that was a ridiculous score card and everyone thought he should have had it. Ko to Cro Cop but fought a draw with him previously. His devestating KO over Jardine put him back on top again in my view. I couldn't imagine Anderson defeating him in a head to head match. Does anyone disagree with that?
I think Anderson is a far too skilled and powerful striker for Vandelei to stand with. Anderson is extremely accurate with his strikes and he throws them straight whereas Vanerlei throws a barrage of looping punches as his offensive mainstay. The shorter, more accurate strikes of Anderson will hit inside of Vanderlei's looping punches. Anderson also has the superior chin. I tend to doubt that Vanderlei has the skill to submit Anderson if it went to the ground and I also doubt Vanderlei could take it to the ground if Anderson did not want to go there. Vanderlei's best weapon in this match is his great cardio. Anderson has been demolishing opponents within the first few rounds and he may not be able to adapt to Vanderlei's attacks in later rounds. Vanderlei is also larger than Anderson and that extra weight could possible aid in fatiguing Anderson. Generally I would think Anderson KO's Vanderlei though.
VoegelinianPlatonist
New member
I cant say I agree with you, my friend. Anderson hasn't proved he has the better chin. He hasn't fought people like Liddell and Jackso, much less gone toe to toe and taken the best they have to offer like Wanderlei. He certainly hasnt gone with heavyweights like Cro Cop and Hunt like W has. That aggressive, loose style of Anderson might change rather quickly once engaged with someone of the COMBINED quickness and power of W. Did you notice Liddell's assertiveness fade after the beginning of the fight, when he W backed up into the cage and Liddell chased him all the way across only to find a fierce combination waiting for him? I'm not familiar with any battles that have tested Anderson, perhaps I'm wrong?
Vanderlei never went toe-to-toe with Hunt. Vanderlei also lost that match. Vanderlei was absolutely beat down by Cro Cop, who KO'd him in the first round, hence that is no testament to the durability of his chin. The only common opponent both Vanderlei and Anderson have fought in recent times is Dan Henderson and Dan Henderson KO'd Vanderlei. Anderson ate a huge knee from Henderson, then took a flush straight right and just came forward then beat Henderson down before securing a rear naked choke. If you watch Anderson's fight with Jorge Rivera, you will see how durable Anderson is. Starting a 2:23 in their fight Jorge starts hitting Anderson flush. Anderson Silva MMA Fight Videos Anderson carries on and clinches unfazed, even though he is still taking shots in the clinch, including a hard, flush uppercut.
Part of the problem when analyzing Anderson's chin is that he doesn't usually stand still to make an easy target. Vanderlei is easier to hit and goes down easier than Anderson. Anderson is much more elusive, but when he does get hit he barely flinches.
VoegelinianPlatonist
New member
There are no common fights because Anderson hasnt fought the list of great Wanderlei has. The Hunt match was taken at the last minute after W was set to fight Sakuraba (thus the disparaty between the traing would have been enormous). Henderson KO'd Wanderlei, but it was a single punch, which can happen to anyone. He actually defeated Henderson the match before that. Anderons, in my opinion, looks very "elusive" because he is standing in front of second caliber talent. He is certainly high caliber, but it troubles me to declare someone "grea", much less "the best pound-for-pound" when we havent seen much. There have been a long list of fighters that at one time were declared "unbeatable" only to crash and burn. I will say, though, that any grand declarations in MMA should be met with incredulity, given the fact that certain people match up so differently with each other.
Also, the announcers of the fights deliriously grandiose declarations aside, a rear choke is one of the simplest manouvers in the world, and doesn't prove anything close "versatility".
Also, the announcers of the fights deliriously grandiose declarations aside, a rear choke is one of the simplest manouvers in the world, and doesn't prove anything close "versatility".
Firstly a rear naked choke is not easy to secure, it is difficult. Everyone knows the defense, everyone knows it is coming, and their are few other options outside of risky, low percentage submissions. Almost all submissions are simple movements, the difficulty is setting them up against a resisting opponent.
Seconly as I stated earlier they do have a common recent opponent: Dan Henderson. Dan Henderson KO'd Vanderlei, Dan Henderson hit Anderson flush, but did not KO him. Dan Henderson therefore is more of a testament to the durability of Anderson while a detriment to the durability of Vanderlei.
I understand that Vanderlei won a decision to Henderson once, but that was back in 2000, not anytime recent.
Since 2005, Vanderlei's win-loss record is 5-5, and two of those wins are split decisions. His only high ranking win in recent times is a split decision againt Ricardo Arona. Jardine, while a solid competitor, is outside of the top rankings due to his inconsistencey. He may win against opponents like Forrest Griffin, but he also loses to opponents like Alexander Houston.
Since 2005 Anderson's win-loss record since 2005 is 9-2. Despite your claims to mediocre opposition, I would consider lopsided thrashings of Rich Franklin (x2 defending champ then former champ), Dan Henderson (former pride mw and ww champ), and Nathan Mardquardt (King of Pancrase) at least as impressive as a split decision win against Ricardo Arona, a split decision win aginst Hideheko Yoshida, and a KO win against Keith Jardine.
In regards to the "second caliber" talent such as Dan Henderson (yes, the same "second caliber" striker that KO'd Vanderlei) and Rich Franklin perhaps the better question would be "Who isn't second caliber in the mw division in your mind?" You're putting the former Pride middle and welterweight champion and the former UFC middleweight champion in the "second caliber". Who does Anderson have to beat to get your respect as a legitimate pound-for-pounder? He essentially won the UFC middleweight belt in lopsided fashion, then defended it easily, then unified the Pride WW and UFC Middleweight titles by thrashing Pride's champion.
VoegelinianPlatonist
New member
Dan Henderson hit Wanderlei with a single shot with 4 oz gloves. This is a "testament" to his chin? What about the 20 wins in a row he racked up? What about the vale tudo career? And the long list of MW's is actually quite comical. Anderson was defeated with flying lock. Do you really think he would ever have defeated sakuraba? Could he beat Quinton Jackson?
The crux of the matter for me is this: Anderson has been matched up with people who havent given him reason to pause with that very confident stand up style. Henderson is not Wanderlei. Until he fights such a striker that stands in front of him with broad shoulders like a wall, ready to strike back with true power every time he seeks to strike, this discussion is mute. Watch Liddell's reaction after the early agrressiveness. The pop on the chin that dropped him quicker than he could realize it changed the game in his mind. I would like to see that happen to Anderson to get a better picture of him. NOT simply a single shot, but a fighter who shows him agressive, powerful counter strikes are waiting for him every time he comes close.
Last, to state that a rear naked choke isn't easy to procure is almost unbelievable to me. BJJ beginners are always able to "roll" with at leat the basice rear and guillotine chokes. Sure it is defendable, but that doesnt mean Anderson showed great skill in applying it. His opponent was simply Beaten up. He was beaten up by strikes, not defeated by the "versatility" of AS's grappling ability. What say you?
OH, and second caliber is what I would call them compared to the fighters W has fought. Cro Cop, who you mentioned as a testament to the "weakness" of his chin, outweighed him by how many pounds in that fight? How many heavyweights (true heavyweights) has Anderson fought?
W took shots from Quinton, particularly in one of them. Quinton knocked out Liddell, et.c So by your syllogistic reasoning (which NEVER works in MMA, since matchups of individuals are so meaningful) Wanderlei has a great chin. He was alos hit hard by Liddell. How many times was he even knocked down, much less out, by those two monsters? Just wondering. Maybe you could enlighten me?
The crux of the matter for me is this: Anderson has been matched up with people who havent given him reason to pause with that very confident stand up style. Henderson is not Wanderlei. Until he fights such a striker that stands in front of him with broad shoulders like a wall, ready to strike back with true power every time he seeks to strike, this discussion is mute. Watch Liddell's reaction after the early agrressiveness. The pop on the chin that dropped him quicker than he could realize it changed the game in his mind. I would like to see that happen to Anderson to get a better picture of him. NOT simply a single shot, but a fighter who shows him agressive, powerful counter strikes are waiting for him every time he comes close.
Last, to state that a rear naked choke isn't easy to procure is almost unbelievable to me. BJJ beginners are always able to "roll" with at leat the basice rear and guillotine chokes. Sure it is defendable, but that doesnt mean Anderson showed great skill in applying it. His opponent was simply Beaten up. He was beaten up by strikes, not defeated by the "versatility" of AS's grappling ability. What say you?
OH, and second caliber is what I would call them compared to the fighters W has fought. Cro Cop, who you mentioned as a testament to the "weakness" of his chin, outweighed him by how many pounds in that fight? How many heavyweights (true heavyweights) has Anderson fought?
W took shots from Quinton, particularly in one of them. Quinton knocked out Liddell, et.c So by your syllogistic reasoning (which NEVER works in MMA, since matchups of individuals are so meaningful) Wanderlei has a great chin. He was alos hit hard by Liddell. How many times was he even knocked down, much less out, by those two monsters? Just wondering. Maybe you could enlighten me?
I think GSP and BJ Pen are up there will Anderson Silva.
VoegelinianPlatonist
New member
Agreed, my friend. BJ Penn is one of the remarkable naturals rarely seen. His fight with Sherk showed his greatness. His BJJ is top notch.
He chose BJJ over school. That's gotta mean something.
His parents like own Hawaii or smthg...lol
"Dan Henderson hit Wanderlei with a single shot with 4 oz gloves. This is a "testament" to his chin?"
I'm not sure what you are asking me. I used Dan Henderson as a comparison for the chins of Anderson and Vanderlei because Henderson with the same 4 oz. gloves hit both Vanderlei and Anderson flush. The end result was Vanderlei got KO'd from the same strike and Anderson came forward and beat Henderson down immediately afterwards, hence Anderson took a similar shot that dropped Vanderlei, hence my evidence Anderson has a more durable chin that Vanderlei.
"What about the 20 wins in a row he racked up? What about the vale tudo career?"
Vanderlei never won 20 fights in a row. His longest winning streak is 8 fights in a row. His Vale Tudo fights were against scrubs, except for perhaps Mike Van Arsdale. He is 5-1 in Vale Tudo. Have you ever heard of Egidio da Costa, Sean Bormet, Marcelo Barbosa, or Dilson Filho? He lost one by TKO there too to the obscure Artur Mariano. When he first stepped into the octagon, he was KO'd by Vitor Belfort in 44 seconds. The next high ranking UFC star he fought, Tito Ortiz, he once again lost.
"Anderson was defeated with flying lock. Do you really think he would ever have defeated sakuraba? Could he beat Quinton Jackson?"
Vanderlei has lost against worse opposition such as Artur Mariano. I think Anderson would have defeated Sakuraba. Sakuraba was a very good fighter, but also a lot of hype. Sakuraba excelled at beating grapplers, but generally lost when facing good strikers. Vovchanchin TKO'd him, as did Cro Cop. Melvin Manhoef KO'd him and Antonio Schembri, a one dimensional grappler, even KO'd him. In regards to Quinton Jackson, I do not know if Anderson could defeat him. I would consider that potentially an excellent fight and certainly would not consider Anderson winning unlikely.
I don't understand why you are creating a bunch of straw man arguments. I understand Henderson is not anderlei Silva. I compared the difference in reactions to strikes from the common recent opponent in the best attempt to standardize conditions. I didn't mention the Cro-Cop fight as being a "testament to the weakness of Wanderlei's chin" I stated that getting KO'd by Cro-cop is not a testament to the strength of Vandelei's chin: "Vanderlei was absolutely beat down by Cro Cop, who KO'd him in the first round, hence that is no testament to the durability of his chin." Check the weigh in stats for the fight. Vanderlei outweighed Cro Cop by 4 pounds: Pride OWGP weigh-ins - Bodybuilding.com Forums so your assumption about a weight differential is inverted as Vanderlei was the bigger man in this fight. Once again you don't have your facts straight.
"The crux of the matter for me is this: Anderson has been matched up with people who havent given him reason to pause with that very confident stand up style. Henderson is not Wanderlei. Until he fights such a striker that stands in front of him with broad shoulders like a wall, ready to strike back with true power every time he seeks to strike, this discussion is mute."
Your assumption about Anderson not standing in front of broad shouldered strikers is completely false. Rich Franklin, only once defeated before Anderson, is a natural light heavy that has won over half of his matches by TKO or KO. Anderson recently moved up in weight and KO'd James Irvin, an absolute muscular marvel with KO power. I've personally trained with Jorge Rivera and he is huge at 185 and Anderson KO'd him. Many of Anderson's victories are against strikers throughout his career, and with the exception of Luis Azeredo and Lee Murray they were all KO'd or TKO'd. Hard hitting strikers do counter Anderson periodically, he just counters them back harder.
"Last, to state that a rear naked choke isn't easy to procure is almost unbelievable to me. BJJ beginners are always able to "roll" with at leat the basice rear and guillotine chokes. Sure it is defendable, but that doesnt mean Anderson showed great skill in applying it. His opponent was simply Beaten up. He was beaten up by strikes, not defeated by the "versatility" of AS's grappling ability. What say you?"
I say you have a flimsy undestanding of grappling. Certainly a white belt can get rear naked choke on another white belt. Will that same white belt be able to outchoke a purple belt if we standardize the conditions and allow a rear naked choke be the only allowable submission? My answer is no. It's all in the set ups and skill of positioning, not the submission itself: BJJ 101.
I never made any claims to Anderson's versatility, you made claims against his versatility. For the sake of argument though, Anderson has triangled Travis Lutter for a submission win after escaping an arm bar attempt and Travis is an Abu Dhabi quality submission wrestler with almost 80% of his winning record composed of victories by submission. If you mean to imply Vanderlei is more versatile than Anderson you need to realize that Vanderlei has only submitted Bob Schriber who has lost over 60% of his fights by submission and that was back in 2000.
"W took shots from Quinton, particularly in one of them. Quinton knocked out Liddell, et.c So by your syllogistic reasoning (which NEVER works in MMA, since matchups of individuals are so meaningful) Wanderlei has a great chin."
You're facts are once again in error. You are initiating the syllogisms, not I. You made the initial claims defining Vanderlei's chin as greater than Anderson's by virtue of unlike competition: "I cant say I agree with you, my friend. Anderson hasn't proved he has the better chin. He hasn't fought people like Liddell and Jackso, much less gone toe to toe and taken the best they have to offer like Wanderlei. He certainly hasnt gone with heavyweights like Cro Cop and Hunt like W has. That aggressive, loose style of Anderson might change rather quickly once engaged with someone of the COMBINED quickness and power of W. Did you notice Liddell's assertiveness fade after the beginning of the fight, when he W backed up into the cage and Liddell chased him all the way across only to find a fierce combination waiting for him? I'm not familiar with any battles that have tested Anderson, perhaps I'm wrong?". I then criticized inaccuracies your syllogistic argument and defined the comparative sturdiness of Anderson's and Vanderlei's chin by virtue of a common opponent. I then gave supporting evidence since you admitted your ignorance when you stated, "I'm not familiar with any battles that have tested Anderson, perhaps I'm wrong?". Yes, you are wrong here and no, Vanderlei does not have a great chin. He has a better than average chin. If Vanderlei had a great chin he wouldn't have lost 1/8 of his fights by TKO and KO. If he had a great chin he would lose a lower ratio of his fights by TKO and KO perhaps resembling the 0/0 TKO and KO losses for Anderson.
I'm not sure what you are asking me. I used Dan Henderson as a comparison for the chins of Anderson and Vanderlei because Henderson with the same 4 oz. gloves hit both Vanderlei and Anderson flush. The end result was Vanderlei got KO'd from the same strike and Anderson came forward and beat Henderson down immediately afterwards, hence Anderson took a similar shot that dropped Vanderlei, hence my evidence Anderson has a more durable chin that Vanderlei.
"What about the 20 wins in a row he racked up? What about the vale tudo career?"
Vanderlei never won 20 fights in a row. His longest winning streak is 8 fights in a row. His Vale Tudo fights were against scrubs, except for perhaps Mike Van Arsdale. He is 5-1 in Vale Tudo. Have you ever heard of Egidio da Costa, Sean Bormet, Marcelo Barbosa, or Dilson Filho? He lost one by TKO there too to the obscure Artur Mariano. When he first stepped into the octagon, he was KO'd by Vitor Belfort in 44 seconds. The next high ranking UFC star he fought, Tito Ortiz, he once again lost.
"Anderson was defeated with flying lock. Do you really think he would ever have defeated sakuraba? Could he beat Quinton Jackson?"
Vanderlei has lost against worse opposition such as Artur Mariano. I think Anderson would have defeated Sakuraba. Sakuraba was a very good fighter, but also a lot of hype. Sakuraba excelled at beating grapplers, but generally lost when facing good strikers. Vovchanchin TKO'd him, as did Cro Cop. Melvin Manhoef KO'd him and Antonio Schembri, a one dimensional grappler, even KO'd him. In regards to Quinton Jackson, I do not know if Anderson could defeat him. I would consider that potentially an excellent fight and certainly would not consider Anderson winning unlikely.
I don't understand why you are creating a bunch of straw man arguments. I understand Henderson is not anderlei Silva. I compared the difference in reactions to strikes from the common recent opponent in the best attempt to standardize conditions. I didn't mention the Cro-Cop fight as being a "testament to the weakness of Wanderlei's chin" I stated that getting KO'd by Cro-cop is not a testament to the strength of Vandelei's chin: "Vanderlei was absolutely beat down by Cro Cop, who KO'd him in the first round, hence that is no testament to the durability of his chin." Check the weigh in stats for the fight. Vanderlei outweighed Cro Cop by 4 pounds: Pride OWGP weigh-ins - Bodybuilding.com Forums so your assumption about a weight differential is inverted as Vanderlei was the bigger man in this fight. Once again you don't have your facts straight.
"The crux of the matter for me is this: Anderson has been matched up with people who havent given him reason to pause with that very confident stand up style. Henderson is not Wanderlei. Until he fights such a striker that stands in front of him with broad shoulders like a wall, ready to strike back with true power every time he seeks to strike, this discussion is mute."
Your assumption about Anderson not standing in front of broad shouldered strikers is completely false. Rich Franklin, only once defeated before Anderson, is a natural light heavy that has won over half of his matches by TKO or KO. Anderson recently moved up in weight and KO'd James Irvin, an absolute muscular marvel with KO power. I've personally trained with Jorge Rivera and he is huge at 185 and Anderson KO'd him. Many of Anderson's victories are against strikers throughout his career, and with the exception of Luis Azeredo and Lee Murray they were all KO'd or TKO'd. Hard hitting strikers do counter Anderson periodically, he just counters them back harder.
"Last, to state that a rear naked choke isn't easy to procure is almost unbelievable to me. BJJ beginners are always able to "roll" with at leat the basice rear and guillotine chokes. Sure it is defendable, but that doesnt mean Anderson showed great skill in applying it. His opponent was simply Beaten up. He was beaten up by strikes, not defeated by the "versatility" of AS's grappling ability. What say you?"
I say you have a flimsy undestanding of grappling. Certainly a white belt can get rear naked choke on another white belt. Will that same white belt be able to outchoke a purple belt if we standardize the conditions and allow a rear naked choke be the only allowable submission? My answer is no. It's all in the set ups and skill of positioning, not the submission itself: BJJ 101.
I never made any claims to Anderson's versatility, you made claims against his versatility. For the sake of argument though, Anderson has triangled Travis Lutter for a submission win after escaping an arm bar attempt and Travis is an Abu Dhabi quality submission wrestler with almost 80% of his winning record composed of victories by submission. If you mean to imply Vanderlei is more versatile than Anderson you need to realize that Vanderlei has only submitted Bob Schriber who has lost over 60% of his fights by submission and that was back in 2000.
"W took shots from Quinton, particularly in one of them. Quinton knocked out Liddell, et.c So by your syllogistic reasoning (which NEVER works in MMA, since matchups of individuals are so meaningful) Wanderlei has a great chin."
You're facts are once again in error. You are initiating the syllogisms, not I. You made the initial claims defining Vanderlei's chin as greater than Anderson's by virtue of unlike competition: "I cant say I agree with you, my friend. Anderson hasn't proved he has the better chin. He hasn't fought people like Liddell and Jackso, much less gone toe to toe and taken the best they have to offer like Wanderlei. He certainly hasnt gone with heavyweights like Cro Cop and Hunt like W has. That aggressive, loose style of Anderson might change rather quickly once engaged with someone of the COMBINED quickness and power of W. Did you notice Liddell's assertiveness fade after the beginning of the fight, when he W backed up into the cage and Liddell chased him all the way across only to find a fierce combination waiting for him? I'm not familiar with any battles that have tested Anderson, perhaps I'm wrong?". I then criticized inaccuracies your syllogistic argument and defined the comparative sturdiness of Anderson's and Vanderlei's chin by virtue of a common opponent. I then gave supporting evidence since you admitted your ignorance when you stated, "I'm not familiar with any battles that have tested Anderson, perhaps I'm wrong?". Yes, you are wrong here and no, Vanderlei does not have a great chin. He has a better than average chin. If Vanderlei had a great chin he wouldn't have lost 1/8 of his fights by TKO and KO. If he had a great chin he would lose a lower ratio of his fights by TKO and KO perhaps resembling the 0/0 TKO and KO losses for Anderson.
VoegelinianPlatonist
New member
I am sorry I dot have time to respond more fully to this post. I will try to n short order. Just to comment on your last poit and on one of the first. Rich Franklin is not a fighter with broad shouldered punching power. The 185 lb division is bereft of such talent as the 205 and thus forces you to strain too hard. Anderson, is truly wanting to fight the greats, would move up. Certaintly you wouldn't argue that if WS is in 205, AS could easily do the same. Rich Franklin, is a fine fighter, but not a top notcher. He is a hard worker with great drive and ambition to be the best. "Ambition should be made of sterner stuff".
On your last point. WS being KO/TKO'd proves MUCH less about hs chin than his fighting style. He trades with first class strikers. Beng such a fighter, wearing 4oz gloves, fighting at such a rate over such a tme span, you are going to get hit in a manner that will test the greatest chins. Now, as far as intelligently fighting a certain style or stategy against different opponents, he is not to be considered at the top of the list (of course). I know h doesnt even make a particular plan for opponents he is scheduled to fight (although, obviously, the Hunt fight shows he will change his style if necessary).
I feel uneasy with a couple of your answers to my objections, as well as a particular claim that my argument on versatility was not a response to your initial suggestion. I will have to go back, read the posts over, and respond in toto tomorrow.
Thank you for your time and the discussion, i look forward to its continuation.
On your last point. WS being KO/TKO'd proves MUCH less about hs chin than his fighting style. He trades with first class strikers. Beng such a fighter, wearing 4oz gloves, fighting at such a rate over such a tme span, you are going to get hit in a manner that will test the greatest chins. Now, as far as intelligently fighting a certain style or stategy against different opponents, he is not to be considered at the top of the list (of course). I know h doesnt even make a particular plan for opponents he is scheduled to fight (although, obviously, the Hunt fight shows he will change his style if necessary).
I feel uneasy with a couple of your answers to my objections, as well as a particular claim that my argument on versatility was not a response to your initial suggestion. I will have to go back, read the posts over, and respond in toto tomorrow.
Thank you for your time and the discussion, i look forward to its continuation.
cobracock1979
Member
No such thing as the best, when 2 styles clash no one can tell.
GSP is awesome but will never be an out an out striker. Anderson Silva will never be a wrestler. If A silva can stuff GSP's shoot (which is probably the best in the UFC) then Silva has a massive edge. GSP would need to stay out of the clinch as no one rivals A silva there, not even vanderlei. I thin bj Penn would cause A Silver big problems, epecially if he not a lazy c*nt in training.
GSP is awesome but will never be an out an out striker. Anderson Silva will never be a wrestler. If A silva can stuff GSP's shoot (which is probably the best in the UFC) then Silva has a massive edge. GSP would need to stay out of the clinch as no one rivals A silva there, not even vanderlei. I thin bj Penn would cause A Silver big problems, epecially if he not a lazy c*nt in training.
I think what people miss about GSP sometimes is that he is a true MMA fighter. He mixes all of the disciplines well: striking, submission, and wrestling. His takedowns are far from the best in MMA. What he does is set them up very well with rapid striking to get the opponent in striking defense mode, then GSP comes in with the takedown. I can't recall when GSP has just shot straight in with a takedown that wasn't set up with striking.
That's the problem he will face with Anderson Silva. Silva is a striking oriented MMA fighter. He can easily exchange with GSP and had far more damaging striking, greater skill at striking, and probably a superior chin. Silva controls the game that GSP uses to enter. GSP's wrestling is probably better than Anderson's, but I'm guessing Anderson's submissions and submission defense are superior.
In my opinion, GSP's best chance of winning is GNP, but not out of guard. He needs to get side mount or mount and that is one of GSP's strengths.
That's the problem he will face with Anderson Silva. Silva is a striking oriented MMA fighter. He can easily exchange with GSP and had far more damaging striking, greater skill at striking, and probably a superior chin. Silva controls the game that GSP uses to enter. GSP's wrestling is probably better than Anderson's, but I'm guessing Anderson's submissions and submission defense are superior.
In my opinion, GSP's best chance of winning is GNP, but not out of guard. He needs to get side mount or mount and that is one of GSP's strengths.
cobracock1979
Member
Good points bro, bit I thing GSP has the best shoot in MMA right now, regardless of the setup...But silva has a great sprawl...so lets see
Id be interested to see a clinch between the tew. Clearly silva's clinch is potentially the best around, but GSP's strength and balance may allow him to do some damage
rediculus
New member
ok I have no clue about the 2 guys your talking about and i did my DAMNDEST to read that whole post..No disrespect I'm not interested enough in sport fighting to know what your talking about. I am curious though.. first 4 ounce gloves holy shit....With 6 ounce gloves and Mui Thai wraps under them I can crush in the bed side of a 77 chevy 1 ton truck...And I don't mean a long bed I mean a short bed about 6 inches away from the corner so support was plentiful. granted I weigh more than those guys do but they train on striking more than I do by a long shot nowadays.
4 ounc gloves..If someone lands a square punch in the jaw..it's gonna break. In my opinion and I hope this sparks a little thought. no 2 punches are the same. 1/8th of a degree and one punch rolls off even a fraction more than another and you take 100 or 200 ft lbs of pressure out of the punch. Imagine Mike Tyson's uppercut with a 4 ounce glove. or for that matter Hollifield's Punch with a 4 ounce glove and wrapped up. Really? We talk about striking specialists but how many people really focus on avoiding and brushing off those punches. I think punching power has exceeded what our body's can handle if delivered correctly.
And frankly I am just not entertained much by MMA/UFC fights. Back in the day when there was good standup strategy it was pretty incredible. Even bruce lee understood. Ground fighting is technical for sure but frankly boring to 90% of the people. I reluctantly agree with him.
4 ounc gloves..If someone lands a square punch in the jaw..it's gonna break. In my opinion and I hope this sparks a little thought. no 2 punches are the same. 1/8th of a degree and one punch rolls off even a fraction more than another and you take 100 or 200 ft lbs of pressure out of the punch. Imagine Mike Tyson's uppercut with a 4 ounce glove. or for that matter Hollifield's Punch with a 4 ounce glove and wrapped up. Really? We talk about striking specialists but how many people really focus on avoiding and brushing off those punches. I think punching power has exceeded what our body's can handle if delivered correctly.
And frankly I am just not entertained much by MMA/UFC fights. Back in the day when there was good standup strategy it was pretty incredible. Even bruce lee understood. Ground fighting is technical for sure but frankly boring to 90% of the people. I reluctantly agree with him.
cobracock1979
Member
Ground fighting is far from boring, just takes some knowledge to understand the transitions
rediculus
New member
precisely
So they are catering to a very small crowd...Imagine back in the day when some of those guys knew how to really punch. Joint locks throws!! To me it just seems like our modern UFC and MMA fighters...It's so flooded with people that want to be the next Shamrock that there isn't much grace and skill left.
that being said...I am actually looking for a Jujitsu studio in my area. If I can find one with even Mediocre weights I will be pretty happy. As much as I hate to say it...every fight I lost was some guy getting me in a choke hold that afterwards I sat back and remembered some of the vague training I had thinking...Wow all I had to do was stuff my chin in crest of his arm or elbow into their back to pull my head out...long story short I love stand up fighting but I need to learn some ground fighting techniques...especially joint locks..for some reason I love joint locks.
So they are catering to a very small crowd...Imagine back in the day when some of those guys knew how to really punch. Joint locks throws!! To me it just seems like our modern UFC and MMA fighters...It's so flooded with people that want to be the next Shamrock that there isn't much grace and skill left.
that being said...I am actually looking for a Jujitsu studio in my area. If I can find one with even Mediocre weights I will be pretty happy. As much as I hate to say it...every fight I lost was some guy getting me in a choke hold that afterwards I sat back and remembered some of the vague training I had thinking...Wow all I had to do was stuff my chin in crest of his arm or elbow into their back to pull my head out...long story short I love stand up fighting but I need to learn some ground fighting techniques...especially joint locks..for some reason I love joint locks.
cobracock1979
Member
Its about the evolution pf martial arts - if thats less exciting, so be it. its what Bruce Lee wanted.
If people are bored they can wach WWF! MMA is for the puritans!
If people are bored they can wach WWF! MMA is for the puritans!
mighty-musculus
Banned
You're not interested in the sport but now You're an instant mma fighter in the next post. You also claim you dont know what anyone is talking about BECAUSE you're not interested in this type of sport, but all of the sudden you know the state of current fighters as in how they fight in comparison to before(?).
My guess is you are bored and like roleplaying or there is two personallitys in your head.
Oh back on topic anderson is best p4p easy.
rediculus
New member
I meant street fights. I have never fought in a ring. Other than training Muay Thai for my own personal benefit. I have watched the sport and frankly it hasn't been what it used to be in a long time. There is no representation of different styles and the reason behind that is some styles take in my opinion much more dedication to master than others.
Roleplaying is for the bedroom.. And as far as the voices in my head are concerned your just jealous because they talk to me. Just because I think the sport has lost what it once had. Doesn't mean I don't understand Joint lock's and fighting in general. I started in martial art's when I was 8 with Kenpo..After that I took Shotokan for 2 years then at 11 I took a Mixed style Wechi Ryu then later in my teen years I took Shaolin Southern Style in Salt lake City from Master Chang T Lu. At 17 I took a more complete martial art Hwarang Do ( can be known as hwa Rang Do) from a local black belt I was living with. After a very short stint with hwarang Do I took a few years off. When I was 22 or so after I got out of the army I took Muay Thai. That school was more tournament fight oriented. A VERY Good school.I Don't know if I would say it was my favorite of the Arts but it was effective.
so as I was attempting to get across....I have done some stand up training but I realize in the fights that I have lost (I don't wear gloves when I fight..or pads usually just blood and concrete)I have lost due to head locks and choke holds. how Loosing to those makes me an MMA fighter I am unsure....I couldn't name you one fighter except for the dude that lives in HB down the road from me and corey...He was UFC drank with him a few times..he's interesting people........Perhaps it's not 2 personalities but one so large it seems so much more than one person could possibly have!!?
PS Does anyone know of any fighters outside of MMA/UFC? calling someone a pound 4 pound greatest fighter in the world...that's a big title for 1 ring and 1 style of fighting.
I am not bagging on the fights. These guys are in good shape they train hard. I would just like to see if anyone can bring up a less glamorized champion or fighter. Also I do NOT condone street fights. I have been in very few and those that I have been in were due to A. My buddy hitting on some dudes chick that was twice his size. B Someone called my half irish half tongan children "niggers" and a guy punching a girl. Not insulting your styles here guys just bringing up a little competitive debate? Feel free to put my ignorance back on me. I don't mind looking stupid or getting educated.
Roleplaying is for the bedroom.. And as far as the voices in my head are concerned your just jealous because they talk to me. Just because I think the sport has lost what it once had. Doesn't mean I don't understand Joint lock's and fighting in general. I started in martial art's when I was 8 with Kenpo..After that I took Shotokan for 2 years then at 11 I took a Mixed style Wechi Ryu then later in my teen years I took Shaolin Southern Style in Salt lake City from Master Chang T Lu. At 17 I took a more complete martial art Hwarang Do ( can be known as hwa Rang Do) from a local black belt I was living with. After a very short stint with hwarang Do I took a few years off. When I was 22 or so after I got out of the army I took Muay Thai. That school was more tournament fight oriented. A VERY Good school.I Don't know if I would say it was my favorite of the Arts but it was effective.
so as I was attempting to get across....I have done some stand up training but I realize in the fights that I have lost (I don't wear gloves when I fight..or pads usually just blood and concrete)I have lost due to head locks and choke holds. how Loosing to those makes me an MMA fighter I am unsure....I couldn't name you one fighter except for the dude that lives in HB down the road from me and corey...He was UFC drank with him a few times..he's interesting people........Perhaps it's not 2 personalities but one so large it seems so much more than one person could possibly have!!?
PS Does anyone know of any fighters outside of MMA/UFC? calling someone a pound 4 pound greatest fighter in the world...that's a big title for 1 ring and 1 style of fighting.
I am not bagging on the fights. These guys are in good shape they train hard. I would just like to see if anyone can bring up a less glamorized champion or fighter. Also I do NOT condone street fights. I have been in very few and those that I have been in were due to A. My buddy hitting on some dudes chick that was twice his size. B Someone called my half irish half tongan children "niggers" and a guy punching a girl. Not insulting your styles here guys just bringing up a little competitive debate? Feel free to put my ignorance back on me. I don't mind looking stupid or getting educated.
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