Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below JohnRobHolmes
Well-known member
yeah, i get it. i too use dumbells for compound movements. i dont even do curls right now, its a waste of my time and my tri's still need to catch up.
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A LIfter's Iron Log...
- Thread starter ghettostudmuffin
- Start date
gjohnson5
New member
GhettoStudMuffin said:
My bad , I didn't expalin it right. When I meant by isolation is isolating one side of the body from the other. First off , you aren't doing dumbell presses, so you shouldn't include that in your argument. Dumbells, especially if you are using them 100lb or more, can get awkward. You have more control of the weight 2 hands on 1 barbell then 1 hand on one dumbell. So you're advocating using a movement that is momentum based such as cleans with dumbells??? This is enough for me to say you should stop.
I use dumbells for stiff-legged deads because they conform to the way I want to hold them, not me conforming to them.
GhettoStudMuffin said:
How are deadlifts harder with dumbells???
GhettoStudMuffin said:
You mean dumbells. It's also more awkward as I stated above.
GhettoStudMuffin said:
This is the isolation I was talking about. It harder because each side of the body has to act individually. I don't believe anyway that you'd get better gains from using dumbells at lighter weight.
GhettoStudMuffin said:
Anyone can use leather straps to grip a bar. This works for barbells or dumbells so I don't see the correlation between grip and dumbells.
GhettoStudMuffin said:
I totally agree on the awkward point. This is probably the reason you are the only one in the gym doing them. Dumbells are not harder to grip then barbells. Infact I generally practice resting the barbell or dumbell in my hand instead of gripping it just to use 100% energy on lifting. When doing a momentum lift like cleans with a dumbell it forces you to grip the dumbell. Have you ever lost balance doing vleans with dumbells??
GhettoStudMuffin said:
OK...
All these lifts are secondary to my main workout. The squat, deadlift and stiff, bench, press, row etc. all come first, but I like to add these weird movements in because they build stregnth and power. I may look stupid to some, but they won't be joking when I can clean a pair of 150's off the ground with no split or squat.
I think of my training as a combo of bodybuilder, powerlifter, weightlifter and strongman all in one, sorta, and I think all can be combined into a routine to build great all around strength and size.
If my gym had tires to flip, and stones and sandbags to pick up, I would. Least it has heavy chains and bands.
Well there's my long winded response to your post.
[/QUOTE]Mine in between
gjohnson5
New member
gjohnson5 said:My bad , I didn't expalin it right. When I meant by isolation is isolating one side of the body from the other. First off , you aren't doing dumbell presses, so you shouldn't include that in your argument. Dumbells, especially if you are using them 100lb or more, can get awkward. You have more control of the weight 2 hands on 1 barbell then 1 hand on one dumbell. So you're advocating using a movement that is momentum based such as cleans with dumbells??? This is enough for me to say you should stop.
I use dumbells for stiff-legged deads because they conform to the way I want to hold them, not me conforming to them.
How are deadlifts harder with dumbells???
You mean dumbells. It's also more awkward as I stated above.
This is the isolation I was talking about. It harder because each side of the body has to act individually. I don't believe anyway that you'd get better gains from using dumbells at lighter weight.
Anyone can use leather straps to grip a bar. This works for barbells or dumbells so I don't see the correlation between grip and dumbells.
I totally agree on the awkward point. This is probably the reason you are the only one in the gym doing them. Dumbells are not harder to grip then barbells. Infact I generally practice resting the barbell or dumbell in my hand instead of gripping it just to use 100% energy on lifting. When doing a momentum lift like cleans with a dumbell it forces you to grip the dumbell. Have you ever lost balance doing vleans with dumbells??
OK...
All these lifts are secondary to my main workout. The squat, deadlift and stiff, bench, press, row etc. all come first, but I like to add these weird movements in because they build stregnth and power. I may look stupid to some, but they won't be joking when I can clean a pair of 150's off the ground with no split or squat.
I think of my training as a combo of bodybuilder, powerlifter, weightlifter and strongman all in one, sorta, and I think all can be combined into a routine to build great all around strength and size.
If my gym had tires to flip, and stones and sandbags to pick up, I would. Least it has heavy chains and bands.
Well there's my long winded response to your post.
Mine in between
[/QUOTE]Then I realize you are talking about putting both hands on one dumbell... How is that any different then using a barbell at close grip?
ghettostudmuffin
New member
Obviously you and I have differing views on training.
What are you talking about me not doing dumbell presses? I plainly said I do seated dumbell presses. I know they get heavy and awkward. I like that.
Cleans with a barbell is just as momentum based as with dumbells, but the heavy dumbells WILL be harder to grip. Why should I stop? Are cleans with barbells and dumbells not effective in building total body power, solid pulling strength and big traps. If you can bring up a legitimate argument that didn't come from Dr. Ken Leistner then I might think about it.
I put a high premium on grip strength. Cleaning or deadlifting a pair of heavy dumbells is indeed harder than cleaning or deadlifitng a barbell. I can probably almost clean 250lbs because it's not hard for me to grip, although my technique on cleans isn't the greatest yet so I can't quite get under the bar. I kinda just brute force it up. When I cleaned 205 I pulled it up to shoulder height pretty much and barely dipped under it.
I don't know where the straps thought came from? I don't use straps except when I do really heavy dynamic barbell shrugs. Anything over 275lbs or so and it tends to start slipping out of my hands when I'm really shrugging hard due to downward momentum.
Heavy one arm dumbell deadlifts due in fact build great grip strength.
I've stated that dumbells are indeed more awkward which makes them harder to lift.
I have in fact lost balance with dumbell cleans a few times, but I have also lost balance with regular BB cleans a few times too.
Why would you even attempt to lift a barbell with hands touching grip? That would be SO awkward as to be dangerous to even try. Especially trying to clean it to shoulder heighth. I'd guess that could lead to some broken wrists pretty easily. Cleaning a dumbell with 2 hands is a totally different lift.
I know some of these lifts are totally awkward, but like I said before, I don't put them before the basics. They are supplemental exercises. And I generally only do them every other back workout or so after my regular back exercises if I've got some lift in me still.
I think alot of gym members want everything to be as easy as possible and as painless as possible. Most of them would probably cringe at picking up a 200lbs piece of concrete and walking with it. Or cleaning a 150lbs sandbag to the shoulders for reps. I like heavy dumbell farmer's walks. I've never seen a guy in a gym do them, but me. Does that make them an ineffective exercise? Alot of these exercises are sorta strongman type, which is why I do them, to be a strong man.
I had a buddy at work one time bring up a roll of sheet metal. It was about 2.5' wide. and 2' in diameter I think. I guessed it weighed about 100-110lbs. My buddy could lift it, but couldn't even rock it to shoulder height without getting serious and he's a fairly strong guy that doesn't lift. He asked me if I could pick it uo overhead and so I did. With 1 motion from the ground I picked it up and heaved it up to my upper chest, set up and pressed it 5x easily. That was awkward strength which I had from using dumbells, picking up odd objects and pressing them etc. Alot of it was just my experience with lifting weird stuff, but some of it was from my training and being able to apply my strength in various ways.
I want to be able to lift a small engine with my own 2 hands, not just lift a heavy barbell. I want to be able to pick up anything I see within reason.
That is why I do some of these exercises that I do. But once again, I do them after the basics if I have energy left over.
What are you talking about me not doing dumbell presses? I plainly said I do seated dumbell presses. I know they get heavy and awkward. I like that.
Cleans with a barbell is just as momentum based as with dumbells, but the heavy dumbells WILL be harder to grip. Why should I stop? Are cleans with barbells and dumbells not effective in building total body power, solid pulling strength and big traps. If you can bring up a legitimate argument that didn't come from Dr. Ken Leistner then I might think about it.
I put a high premium on grip strength. Cleaning or deadlifting a pair of heavy dumbells is indeed harder than cleaning or deadlifitng a barbell. I can probably almost clean 250lbs because it's not hard for me to grip, although my technique on cleans isn't the greatest yet so I can't quite get under the bar. I kinda just brute force it up. When I cleaned 205 I pulled it up to shoulder height pretty much and barely dipped under it.
I don't know where the straps thought came from? I don't use straps except when I do really heavy dynamic barbell shrugs. Anything over 275lbs or so and it tends to start slipping out of my hands when I'm really shrugging hard due to downward momentum.
Heavy one arm dumbell deadlifts due in fact build great grip strength.
I've stated that dumbells are indeed more awkward which makes them harder to lift.
I have in fact lost balance with dumbell cleans a few times, but I have also lost balance with regular BB cleans a few times too.
Why would you even attempt to lift a barbell with hands touching grip? That would be SO awkward as to be dangerous to even try. Especially trying to clean it to shoulder heighth. I'd guess that could lead to some broken wrists pretty easily. Cleaning a dumbell with 2 hands is a totally different lift.
I know some of these lifts are totally awkward, but like I said before, I don't put them before the basics. They are supplemental exercises. And I generally only do them every other back workout or so after my regular back exercises if I've got some lift in me still.
I think alot of gym members want everything to be as easy as possible and as painless as possible. Most of them would probably cringe at picking up a 200lbs piece of concrete and walking with it. Or cleaning a 150lbs sandbag to the shoulders for reps. I like heavy dumbell farmer's walks. I've never seen a guy in a gym do them, but me. Does that make them an ineffective exercise? Alot of these exercises are sorta strongman type, which is why I do them, to be a strong man.
I had a buddy at work one time bring up a roll of sheet metal. It was about 2.5' wide. and 2' in diameter I think. I guessed it weighed about 100-110lbs. My buddy could lift it, but couldn't even rock it to shoulder height without getting serious and he's a fairly strong guy that doesn't lift. He asked me if I could pick it uo overhead and so I did. With 1 motion from the ground I picked it up and heaved it up to my upper chest, set up and pressed it 5x easily. That was awkward strength which I had from using dumbells, picking up odd objects and pressing them etc. Alot of it was just my experience with lifting weird stuff, but some of it was from my training and being able to apply my strength in various ways.
I want to be able to lift a small engine with my own 2 hands, not just lift a heavy barbell. I want to be able to pick up anything I see within reason.
That is why I do some of these exercises that I do. But once again, I do them after the basics if I have energy left over.
ghettostudmuffin
New member
10-14-04
Bodyweight 207-208
Shoulders and arms day. A bitch of a workout as always.
Seated dumbell press 55's x5x5, got all my reps solid
L-laterals 25's 1x12-13
one arm laterals 22.5's x1x14
seated bent rear DB laterals 15's x2x10
Barbell curl 75x7
lying elbows out dumbell extensions 25's x1x18-20, too light
cambered bar preacher curl 55x1x10
close grip bench 120x1x18
Incline alt. DB curl 25's x1x9
skullcrushers 70x1x15
drag curls 55x1x8-10
cable pushdowns 90x1x25
hammer curls 25's x1x8-9
overhead cable extensions 80x1x20+
Incline situp/crunch BW+35x1x11, time to up the weight a little
Stability ball crunch BW+20x1x25
Good workout. Shoulders nicely pumped, arms decently pumped. Felt decently strong in the shoulders, same with biceps, and very strong in triceps.
Shoulders and arms day is hardcore. I take only long enough to walk to the fountain for a quick drink between sets to rest. Half way through the workout I was fuggin soaked and breathing like freight train. Have to move fairly fast between shoulder sets to pump them ,and when they pump they hurt. Arms gotta move faster between sets and alternate triceps and biceps. Didn't take a single set to momentary failure, but most of them were a rep shy of failure which is how I typically do my sets unless I do lower reps and multiple sets like the shoulder 5x5 today which pumped the shoulders nicely. I am a little tired right now, not exhausted or whiped out. Nothing a quick cat nap can't cure. Typically I like to take my protein drink ASAP after my workout, jot down my workout on this here log and then crash for an hour. Works wonders. Later.
Bodyweight 207-208
Shoulders and arms day. A bitch of a workout as always.
Seated dumbell press 55's x5x5, got all my reps solid
L-laterals 25's 1x12-13
one arm laterals 22.5's x1x14
seated bent rear DB laterals 15's x2x10
Barbell curl 75x7
lying elbows out dumbell extensions 25's x1x18-20, too light
cambered bar preacher curl 55x1x10
close grip bench 120x1x18
Incline alt. DB curl 25's x1x9
skullcrushers 70x1x15
drag curls 55x1x8-10
cable pushdowns 90x1x25
hammer curls 25's x1x8-9
overhead cable extensions 80x1x20+
Incline situp/crunch BW+35x1x11, time to up the weight a little
Stability ball crunch BW+20x1x25
Good workout. Shoulders nicely pumped, arms decently pumped. Felt decently strong in the shoulders, same with biceps, and very strong in triceps.
Shoulders and arms day is hardcore. I take only long enough to walk to the fountain for a quick drink between sets to rest. Half way through the workout I was fuggin soaked and breathing like freight train. Have to move fairly fast between shoulder sets to pump them ,and when they pump they hurt. Arms gotta move faster between sets and alternate triceps and biceps. Didn't take a single set to momentary failure, but most of them were a rep shy of failure which is how I typically do my sets unless I do lower reps and multiple sets like the shoulder 5x5 today which pumped the shoulders nicely. I am a little tired right now, not exhausted or whiped out. Nothing a quick cat nap can't cure. Typically I like to take my protein drink ASAP after my workout, jot down my workout on this here log and then crash for an hour. Works wonders. Later.
JohnRobHolmes
Well-known member
IMO grip is the most important part of the chain. especially if you like to pick up strange things i love sleeping after a workout and protein binge. mmmm
i love sleeping after a workout and protein binge. mmmm
gjohnson5
New member
JohnRobHolmes said:IMO grip is the most important part of the chain. especially if you like to pick up strange things
That's you. I do my benches underhand grip and rest the bar in my hand as it will force me to be in control of the weight and not expend energy gripping the bar. Excessive gripping means that you are NOT in control of the weight... The weight is in control of you and you are fighting it. With the weights that I lift, that can cause you to get hurt. So I practice control of the weight with the muscles designed to do the lift and not fighting the weight at every step of the movement.
ghettostudmuffin
New member
Allon, that exactly why I do 1 set. For me, unless I'm doing lower rep, multiple set strength and power work, 1 set of an exercise using moderate reps fries my muscles or maybe the CNS. Even with several minutes rest after a set of say 10 reps, my performance will drop 40% or more. I just don't see the point in doing a second set of 5 with the same weight. Sometimes I'll get a lighter weight and do a burnout set. On the other hand, if I switch between different exercises doing 1 set each, even with minimal rest time and breathing like I just ran a marathon I can put out a good effort with most of my strength. Even though I try not to train to failure, I still get real close. I used to train every fuggin set to failure in the past so I know exactly when it's gonna happen. I generally stop the set on the last rep I can complete, the 1 right before I know I'm gonna fail. I would definitely qualify my sets as HARD sets. I would guess I'm mostly fast twitch throughout my body.
IMO, you can never make grip too big of an issue, You are only as strong as your grip is(I would add abs to that too). If you've ever done any kind of strongman lifting you would know that. Of course your priorities are different and you don't put as much emphasis on grip work, which is fine. To each his own.
I use an underhand grip too, when I do BB inclines. Also thumbless when I do most back type movements. I think you don't quite understand my emphasis on grip or how I think about it so I'll explain it to you.
I do several exercises with a thumbless grip so that I can put most of the emphasis on the muscle I'm working, just like you. When I do rows, pulldowns, incline bench I use a thumbless.
I do one hand DB cleans and deadlifts to build the grip mainly, and some overall body strength, but mainly it's for the grip and a little for the traps on the cleans. I do regular BB cleans too.
So you see, if my goal is to work a specific muscle, if using a thumbless grip will help isolate the muscle I'll use it. IF it doesn't help I don't use it. And I do seperate movements specifically to stress the grip. Best of both worlds imho.
IMO, you can never make grip too big of an issue, You are only as strong as your grip is(I would add abs to that too). If you've ever done any kind of strongman lifting you would know that. Of course your priorities are different and you don't put as much emphasis on grip work, which is fine. To each his own.
I use an underhand grip too, when I do BB inclines. Also thumbless when I do most back type movements. I think you don't quite understand my emphasis on grip or how I think about it so I'll explain it to you.
I do several exercises with a thumbless grip so that I can put most of the emphasis on the muscle I'm working, just like you. When I do rows, pulldowns, incline bench I use a thumbless.
I do one hand DB cleans and deadlifts to build the grip mainly, and some overall body strength, but mainly it's for the grip and a little for the traps on the cleans. I do regular BB cleans too.
So you see, if my goal is to work a specific muscle, if using a thumbless grip will help isolate the muscle I'll use it. IF it doesn't help I don't use it. And I do seperate movements specifically to stress the grip. Best of both worlds imho.
