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A Brief Treatise on Infinity (With A Question...)

samoth

New member
Introduction

Most of us are familiarized with ideas of infinity from such childhood concepts as "there are twice as many numbers as numbers," wherein one would 'prove' such a theorem by asking someone else to name a number and countering by answering with double of that number.

Infinity, , is often considered to not be a number, but rather a concept of increase beyond bounds. In analysis, infinity is denoted as an unbounded limit x → ∞, meaning x grows beyond any assigned value, or, alternatively, that the magnitude |x| of x grows beyond any assigned value.

Generally, infinity is not a real number but may be considered part of the extened number line, in which arithmetic operations involving infinity may be performed. Examples of such are

∞ + ∞ = ∞ ‧ ∞ = (-∞) ‧ (-∞) = ∞

as well as other self-obvious operations that will be left to the reader.


Query

My interest in this arises from renormalization theories in quantum mechanics. Renormalization is a process of adjusting terms of the equation to turn infinite quantities into finite ones. From many a physicist's perspective, renormalization amounts to nothing other than subtracting infinities from infinities with a silent prayer. Usually such an operation would be meaningless, but theorists in essence implicitly hope that when wrote infinity - infinity = zero, nature would miraculously make it so. That this process works -- that their hope was granted -- says something important about the world.

Let us assume that the set of all real numbers, denoted here as ℝⁿ, is infinite. This is a logical (and correct) assumption. Furthermore, let us defind the set of all the integers, denoted ℤⁿ. Let us also assume that this set of numbers is infinite as well (as it very well is).

Now some questions regarding the implicit nature of infinity arise when looking at such infinite sets. Let us look at the the previous seemingly nonsensical equation in a slightly different way: infinity (the number of integers, 0, 1, 2, 3, ...) minus infinity (the number of even integers, 0, 2, 4, ...) equals infinity (the remaining, odd integers, 1, 3, 5, ...). I pose the reader with the question: Does this hold any sense, mathematical or otherwise? Noting also that all three of these infinities are the same, unlike, for example, the distinctly greater infinity representing the number of real numbers, ℝⁿ.

Thus, in logical notation,

ℝⁿ › ℤⁿ ⇒ ∞ › ∞ , a contradiction?

Or, more formally,

{lim a → ∞ | a ∈ ℝⁿ} › {lim b → ∞ | b ∈ ℤⁿ} ⇒ ∞ › ∞ , a contradiction?


Conclusion and Implications

Thus, might there exist a denotational scheme that could be applied to same-yet-different infinities, or, rather, differentiable infinite quantities? And would it be plausable to implicate this or similar schema to the continuing renormalization problems continuing to plague quantum mechanics, allowing for at least understandable mathematical formalism, and at most a greater physical understanding of the quantum nature of the universe?




:cow:
 
(disclaimer) I have no clue.
My only hitch is you are parceling up something that is unbounded. Those parts are also unbounded. They are parts of the whole but there really is no whole. I cant quite get a grip on that one. They are all neverending.
 
sums.jpg


Not sure if I am following your relationship? Are my above summations representative of you question? If so, neither is a convergent summation so therefore re-arranging terms of either will not change the outcome of the sum.
 
redguru said:
sums.jpg


Not sure if I am following your relationship? Are my above summations representative of you question? If so, neither is a convergent summation so therefore re-arranging terms of either will not change the outcome of the sum.


Sorry, disregard the second summation as your even integers. Can't believe I did that. I meant 2x
 
redguru said:
Sorry, disregard the second summation as your even integers. Can't believe I did that. I meant 2n

Eh, what I'm trying to say is that given the fact there exists a distinctly greater infinity, R > Z, what does this imply? I just used some basic notation from set-theory, so you can disregard the bracketed terms, as I could have represented them wrong (or at very least ill-defined the variables).

Given the sets R and Z:

The set of all real numbers, R, is infinite;

The set of all the integers, Z, is infinite;

But R > Z, thus implying infinity > infinity, a contradiction.

What do we make of this?

... and similarly with the subtraction of independent subsets of R.



:cow:
 
harmonica said:
(disclaimer) ... something that is unbounded. Those parts are also unbounded. They are parts of the whole but there really is no whole. I cant quite get a grip on that one. They are all neverending.

Basic set-theory.

R and Z are unbounded sets, as are the subsets of R I mentioned.



:cow:
 
samoth said:
Eh, what I'm trying to say is that given the fact there exists a distinctly greater infinity, R > Z, what does this imply? I just used some basic notation from set-theory, so you can disregard the bracketed terms, as I could have represented them wrong (or at very least ill-defined the variables).

Given the sets R and Z:

The set of all real numbers, R, is infinite;

The set of all the integers, Z, is infinite;

But R > Z, thus implying infinity > infinity, a contradiction.

What do we make of this?

... and similarly with the subtraction of independent subsets of R.



:cow:

Do all sets not have the same number of elements? Therefore R = Z?
 
harmonica said:
I dont believe there can be a greater infinity....wow I'm a nonbeliever.

I'm not going to get into thorough mathematical proofs here. You need a bit of a priori knowledge here, sorry.



:cow:
 
redguru said:
Do all sets not have the same number of elements? Therefore R = Z?

R is the set of all real numbers. It is infinite.

Z is the set of all the integers. It is also infinite.

While both are infinite, R > Z.


Do you see where I'm coming from? They're both infinite sets, but of different sizes.



:cow:
 
samoth said:
I'm not going to get into thorough mathematical proofs here. You need a bit of a priori knowledge here, sorry.



:cow:
Hey no problem. I'm just putting in my layman 2 cents. I wouldnt understand a proof anyway which I am sure you realize. But just from my point of view (my couch), I dont see how you can say one infinity is less or more than another. I'm not even cool with infinity=infinity. You all hash it out though I'm hip. ;)
 
harmonica said:
Hey no problem. I'm just putting in my layman 2 cents. I wouldnt understand a proof anyway which I am sure you realize. But just from my point of view (my couch), I dont see how you can say one infinity is less or more than another. I'm not even cool with infinity=infinity. You all hash it out though I'm hip. ;)

Well, it's not that hard to understand. You just need to know a few things. If you want, look up "the real numbers", usually denoted with a funny-looking R. Then look up "the integers", usually denoted with a funny-looking Z. Assuming you know the basic definition of a mathematicsl set, you should be able to see what I'm getting at. Both sets, while infinite, are different sizes.

(See? Math can be cool! Or at least analogous to a mind-altering narcotic. Or something.)



:cow:
 
samoth said:
R is the set of all real numbers. It is infinite.

Z is the set of all the integers. It is also infinite.

While both are infinite, R > Z.


Do you see where I'm coming from? They're both infinite sets, but of different sizes.


:cow:

Oh, I understand what you mean. Cantor can show that the set of real numbers between 0 and 1 is larger than the set of natural numbers. In your integer examples you can take any portion of the summation and show that 2x will always be greater in magnitude than x.

Archimedes is the first I think to explain that infinity isn't real, or that we cannot grasp it as a number, only the potential of infinity.

If you say infinity, I say infinity +1.
 
there are no "real" numbers. There are all imaginary as is the whole numbering schema. Lacking the cognition and the imagination to fully understand an imaginary term such as infinity is a lack of first definining the imaginary word in an imaginary mind.
Infinity is merely a convenient term. Any attempts at proving a discrepancy in or a contradiction of, is simply a lack of imagination. Or better yet, having a problem with one's own self's definition of infinity.
Infinity in tangible terms is nothing more than a car
 
yes there could be such a denotational scheme for infinities but maybe the classification would be in terms of the rate of tending to infinity to differentiate the infinities (infinins, i'm copyrighting that word), and therefore to be able to meaningfully use them (ie add or subtract infinins to get a result).
You can work out the derivative calculus now, my work here is done :)
 
Island Son said:
yes there could be such a denotational scheme for infinities but maybe the classification would be in terms of the rate of tending to infinity to differentiate the infinities (infinins, i'm copyrighting that word), and therefore to be able to meaningfully use them (ie add or subtract infinins to get a result).
You can work out the derivative calculus now, my work here is done :)

Finally! That's totally what I was getting at, but was hoping to get somewhere without differentiating the rate at which elements within a given set would tend towards infinity.

We've established infinite sets of varying degrees with respect to each other, and thus infinity =/= infinity. So I'm wondering what can be drawn mathematically or algebraically from such a... whatever it'd be called... algebraic ring or what have you. I'm sure the quantum theorists would have done or thought of this in their whole renormalization thing, but I've never seen them go beyond "It works -- cool, let's keep doing it!" I bet I'm totally on to something here. To bad I don't know what it is.



:cow:
 
samoth said:
While somewhat interesting, this discussion totally went nowhere from my original point. Meh.



(:cow:)^

Just saying hello and giving a bump, Im years removed from studying mathematics in Univ. so its pretty much greek to me at this point meh lol.

Words man, concepts, instead of using math symbols that I have long since replaced the brain cells that it used to occupy with more useful information. You should say word it more appropriately.
For example, say you have in supply an infinite number of ping-pong balls. In front of you is a barrel, of infinite volume, into which you throw the balls. Each ball is labelled by a natural number, lined up in such an order. There is one ping-pong ball for each natural number. You first throw in ball 1, then ball 2, then ball 3, etc. After you throw in ball 10, you remove ball 1 from the barrel. After ball 20, you remove ball 2. After you throw in ball 30, you take out ball 3, and so on. This experiment lasts a duration of one minute. For the first 30 seconds, you throw in the first 10 balls, after which point there are 9 balls left in the barrel. For half of that time -- 15 seconds -- you throw in the next 10 balls (ball 11 through ball 20), after which there are 18 balls remaining in the barrel. In the next 7.5 seconds, you throw in the next ten, after which there are 27 balls remaining in the barrel, and so on. After a minute, the experiment ends, and you take note. The question is as follows: At the end of the experiment, how many ping-pong balls are in the barrel?
 
BrothaBill said:
Just saying hello and giving a bump, Im years removed from studying mathematics in Univ. so its pretty much greek to me at this point meh lol.

Words man, concepts, instead of using math symbols that I have long since replaced the brain cells that it used to occupy with more useful information. You should say word it more appropriately.
For example, say you have in supply an infinite number of ping-pong balls. In front of you is a barrel, of infinite volume, into which you throw the balls. Each ball is labelled by a natural number, lined up in such an order. There is one ping-pong ball for each natural number. You first throw in ball 1, then ball 2, then ball 3, etc. After you throw in ball 10, you remove ball 1 from the barrel. After ball 20, you remove ball 2. After you throw in ball 30, you take out ball 3, and so on. This experiment lasts a duration of one minute. For the first 30 seconds, you throw in the first 10 balls, after which point there are 9 balls left in the barrel. For half of that time -- 15 seconds -- you throw in the next 10 balls (ball 11 through ball 20), after which there are 18 balls remaining in the barrel. In the next 7.5 seconds, you throw in the next ten, after which there are 27 balls remaining in the barrel, and so on. After a minute, the experiment ends, and you take note. The question is as follows: At the end of the experiment, how many ping-pong balls are in the barrel?

I'll have to start a probability thread for you after I figure this stuff out.



:cow:
 
samoth said:
I'll have to start a probability thread for you after I figure this stuff out.



:cow:

The intuitive answer is an infinite amount. After all, it is as if nine balls are added each time, an infinite amount of times, each time the number increasing. However, the answer, surprisingly (to some at least), is zero amount. Since all the balls were numbered and were removed systematically, for each and every ball, you can attribute with exact precision the time when it was removed. Thus all the balls were removed.
 
Last edited:
samoth said:
Introduction

Most of us are familiarized with ideas of infinity from such childhood concepts as "there are twice as many numbers as numbers," wherein one would 'prove' such a theorem by asking someone else to name a number and countering by answering with double of that number.

Infinity, , is often considered to not be a number, but rather a concept of increase beyond bounds. In analysis, infinity is denoted as an unbounded limit x → ∞, meaning x grows beyond any assigned value, or, alternatively, that the magnitude |x| of x grows beyond any assigned value.
Generally, infinity is not a real number but may be considered part of the extened number line, in which arithmetic operations involving infinity may be performed. Examples of such are

∞ + ∞ = ∞ ‧ ∞ = (-∞) ‧ (-∞) = ∞

as well as other self-obvious operations that will be left to the reader.


Query

My interest in this arises from renormalization theories in quantum mechanics. Renormalization is a process of adjusting terms of the equation to turn infinite quantities into finite ones. From many a physicist's perspective, renormalization amounts to nothing other than subtracting infinities from infinities with a silent prayer. Usually such an operation would be meaningless, but theorists in essence implicitly hope that when wrote infinity - infinity = zero, nature would miraculously make it so. That this process works -- that their hope was granted -- says something important about the world.

Let us assume that the set of all real numbers, denoted here as ℝⁿ, is infinite. This is a logical (and correct) assumption. Furthermore, let us defind the set of all the integers, denoted ℤⁿ. Let us also assume that this set of numbers is infinite as well (as it very well is).

Now some questions regarding the implicit nature of infinity arise when looking at such infinite sets. Let us look at the the previous seemingly nonsensical equation in a slightly different way: infinity (the number of integers, 0, 1, 2, 3, ...) minus infinity (the number of even integers, 0, 2, 4, ...) equals infinity (the remaining, odd integers, 1, 3, 5, ...). I pose the reader with the question: Does this hold any sense, mathematical or otherwise? Noting also that all three of these infinities are the same, unlike, for example, the distinctly greater infinity representing the number of real numbers, ℝⁿ.

Thus, in logical notation,

ℝⁿ › ℤⁿ ⇒ ∞ › ∞ , a contradiction?

Or, more formally,

{lim a → ∞ | a ∈ ℝⁿ} › {lim b → ∞ | b ∈ ℤⁿ} ⇒ ∞ › ∞ , a contradiction?


Conclusion and Implications

Thus, might there exist a denotational scheme that could be applied to same-yet-different infinities, or, rather, differentiable infinite quantities? And would it be plausable to implicate this or similar schema to the continuing renormalization problems continuing to plague quantum mechanics, allowing for at least understandable mathematical formalism, and at most a greater physical understanding of the quantum nature of the universe?


:cow:
alright i made bold the part in your post that are important to my position on this subject

it seems to me that there is a contradiction in our concept of infinity as a value, yet as increasing beyond assignable value. - if something cannot be assigned a value, then speaking of it as an object to which we can assign value (ie ∞ = ∞ ) is meaningless.

also, in your above post, you said that infinity x grows beyond any assigned value, or, alternatively, that the magnitude |x| of x grows beyond any assigned value.

growth is in itself a rate, and so if we decided to define infinity as ∞ = ∞.∞ⁿ, where ∞ is the rate at which infinity increases (and therefore with assignable value), and ∞ⁿ is the idea of infinity being an infinitely large number (also of assignable value) AND both of these can be infinitely large in a number sense, then we can start separating the conceptual duality that boggles the shit out of us

then introduce the idea that ∞ has a smaller value to ∞, BUT then let us also suppose that ∞ = ∞.∞ⁿ (which we say is possible because the ∞ⁿ aspect of our equation is of infinite value, and hence still gets us to infinity)

so, if we look at the previously contradictory statement ∞ › ∞ and substitute for ∞, then we can say that:

∞ › ∞

therefore

∞ⁿ.∞ › ∞ⁿ.∞ (where ∞ is of a different value to , as above

which remains true until we decide to cancel out ∞ⁿ and are left with

› ∞ which is true if ∞ really was assigned a value greater than ∞ in the first place

so, the difference between infinities is that they grow at different rates, and to make a bit more sense of the bloody thing, we need to invent a new number system - because thinking of infinities as rational numbers is irrational

i bet some bastard has already thought of this and im not as smart as i think i am....or at least...hes as smart as me. lucky mofo :D
 
GoldenDelicious said:
alright i made bold the part in your post that are important to my position on this subject

it seems to me that there is a contradiction in our concept of infinity as a value, yet as increasing beyond assignable value. - if something cannot be assigned a value, then speaking of it as an object to which we can assign value (ie ∞ = ∞ ) is meaningless.

This kinda abstract stuff is really common in math, but the question of notation was one of my main ones. Not a previous ill-definitive nature, but what kind of notation it could possibly be prescribed.

also, in your above post, you said that infinity x grows beyond any assigned value, or, alternatively, that the magnitude |x| of x grows beyond any assigned value.

The two definitions are from real and complex analysis, respectively. I just wanted a thorough definition before getting into anything. I was approaching the subject from more of a pure mathematics or set-theory basis.

growth is in itself a rate, and so if we decided to define infinity as ∞ = ∞.∞ⁿ, where ∞ is the rate at which infinity increases (and therefore with assignable value), and ∞ⁿ is the idea of infinity being an infinitely large number (also of assignable value) AND both of these can be infinitely large in a number sense, then we can start separating the conceptual duality that boggles the shit out of us

I'd just like to point out here that I find it humerous that you're using colored superscripts. Must be an Aussie thing, lol. Anyways, onwards...

then introduce the idea that ∞ has a smaller value to ∞, BUT then let us also suppose that ∞ = ∞.∞ⁿ (which we say is possible because the ∞ⁿ aspect of our equation is of infinite value, and hence still gets us to infinity)

so, if we look at the previously contradictory statement ∞ › ∞ and substitute for ∞, then we can say that:

∞ › ∞

therefore

∞ⁿ.∞ › ∞ⁿ.∞ (where ∞ is of a different value to , as above

which remains true until we decide to cancel out ∞ⁿ and are left with

› ∞ which is true if ∞ really was assigned a value greater than ∞ in the first place

so, the difference between infinities is that they grow at different rates, and to make a bit more sense of the bloody thing, we need to invent a new number system - because thinking of infinities as rational numbers is irrational

We're not limited to 'traditional' mathematical methods, numerical systems, or algebras. If you can think of a way to represent this as a non-abelian Clifford or Bananch algebra in hilbert space, I'd like to hear it.

i bet some bastard has already thought of this and im not as smart as i think i am....or at least...hes as smart as me. lucky mofo :D

I haven't seen this treatment of infinity, at least with respect to commutative aspects in renormalization theories. Hence my interest.

I suppose looking at rate of change or increase would be the obvious route, but I think (didn't really look too deeply into it or anything) that that method would lead to too many obfuscations down the road. I was thinking something more abstract, rooted in set theory or point-set topology or something... going step-by-step from the presented foundation in a more formal manner, or one that would at least withstand some basic mathematical formalism.

By the way, we can't really "assign values" to anything here. They are all abstract entities, hence the set-theoristic notation I tried to implement. I'm also assuming they exist in a basic topological space. I'm not sure if this was written in jest or not, but it was kinda shot from the beginning.



:cow:
 
lol...you think? ;)

nah i tapped it out as one of those things that sounds good for about 10 seconds, until you start scratching the surface and think...wwwwwwwwaaaiiitt a minute ;)

anyway whenever i try to explain infinity i get the same feeling as whn i try to explain difference dimensions - its like i know what im trying to say but cant spit it out...then i give up and go looking for a snack ;)

good luck with your assignmenty thingy ;) and dont mock the colored superscripts, they save a lot of screwing around :D
 
another way to think of the difference between R and Z and their varying "degrees of infinity", is to think of one as "countably infinite" and the other as "uncountably infinite"...

in other words, you can count out a progression of integers (1, 2, 3, 4 ...) infinitely, but you are traversing from one element in the set to the next, without skipping any. however, if you do the same with the elements in the set of real numbers, then you're skipping smaller infinities between abritrary elements (e.g., there are an infinite number of real numbers between 1 and 2...and the same is true for any 2 real numbers...an infinity of infinities in between the infinite elements.
 
GoldenDelicious said:
lol...you think? ;)

nah i tapped it out as one of those things that sounds good for about 10 seconds, until you start scratching the surface and think...wwwwwwwwaaaiiitt a minute ;)

anyway whenever i try to explain infinity i get the same feeling as whn i try to explain difference dimensions - its like i know what im trying to say but cant spit it out...then i give up and go looking for a snack ;)

good luck with your assignmenty thingy ;) and dont mock the colored superscripts, they save a lot of screwing around :D

Different dimensions is actually pretty easy to grasp if thinking in terms of topological spaces and n-manifolds.

And this wasn't an assignment, just personal interest.



:cow:
 
samoth said:
I suppose looking at rate of change or increase would be the obvious route, but I think (didn't really look too deeply into it or anything) that that method would lead to too many obfuscations down the road. I was thinking something more abstract, rooted in set theory or point-set topology or something... going step-by-step from the presented foundation in a more formal manner, or one that would at least withstand some basic mathematical formalism.

By the way, we can't really "assign values" to anything here. They are all abstract entities, hence the set-theoristic notation I tried to implement. I'm also assuming they exist in a basic topological space. I'm not sure if this was written in jest or not, but it was kinda shot from the beginning.



:cow:


Whats your starting definition for infinity??
 
jackangel said:
another way to think of the difference between R and Z and their varying "degrees of infinity", is to think of one as "countably infinite" and the other as "uncountably infinite"...

in other words, you can count out a progression of integers (1, 2, 3, 4 ...) infinitely, but you are traversing from one element in the set to the next, without skipping any. however, if you do the same with the elements in the set of real numbers, then you're skipping smaller infinities between abritrary elements (e.g., there are an infinite number of real numbers between 1 and 2...and the same is true for any 2 real numbers...an infinity of infinities in between the infinite elements.

Yes, that knowledge was assumed of the reader before the paper. You kinda just defined the elements of the sets R and Z and pointed out that there is not an isomorphism between them.

As you pointed out well, though, was two different yet infinite 'things' (quantities, spaces, sets, etc.), which is exactly what's I'm trying to get at. Like, can we use these differences -- somehow defining them, if only abstractly -- and have them exist as some sort of algebraic ring wherein binary operations of some sort are defined?

I think it's the defining-them-mathematically in a way that allows the use of operators that is the problem. I know there's a branch of mathematics called 'operator theory', maybe that'd help somewhat.



:cow:
 
samoth said:
I know there's a branch of mathematics called 'operator theory', maybe that'd help somewhat.

Crap, nope. It's part of functional analysis that deals with bounded linear operators only.

Maybe if I can get infinite quantities to somehow converge, I could apply it. ... ... ... ... eh, no.



:cow:
 
samoth said:
Different dimensions is actually pretty easy to grasp if thinking in terms of topological spaces and n-manifolds.

And this wasn't an assignment, just personal interest.



:cow:

i think of different dimensions as object properties
x y z time density color translucency density smell mood etc etc....

so if rate of infinity doesn't work for you, give a different example of something that can approach infinity which is not reducible to a single line (ie not integers or real numbers)
 
No infinity is any greater than another infinity

the sum of (1,3,5,7,9....) is just as infinite as the sum of (1,2,3,4,5...)
 
Island Son said:
i think of different dimensions as object properties
x y z time density color translucency density smell mood etc etc....

so if rate of infinity doesn't work for you, give a different example of something that can approach infinity which is not reducible to a single line (ie not integers or real numbers)
its more like something you just accept instead of really grasp.

you can just take the same formulas and put a 4th dimension in it and use them and the answers will sometimes translate back to "the real world" to some people proving the realistic existance of more than 3 dimensions.

Samoth will slaughter me for this lol
 
Hiatussin said:
No infinity is any greater than another infinity

the sum of (1,3,5,7,9....) is just as infinite as the sum of (1,2,3,4,5...)

Well thats what Im trying to find out is what exactly "his" definition of infinity is. So that we are all on the same page from the start. If there are certain rules added to the most widely accepted use of the term infinity. Like should we be discussing an expression of "approaching infinity" or infinity itself, which first step is to define the terms.
 
BrothaBill said:
Whats your starting definition for infinity??

I gave the definitions from analysis, which work, but I'm thinking along mathematical lines of set theory. As in, an infinite number of elements within a set,

∑ { Aα | ∀ α ∈ ℝⁿ}

here, an infinite number of elements denoted by the summation of all Aα th elements within ℝⁿ. That'd probably be a better definition than that I gave in the original post.

And LOL @ juicedmohawk just bombed you with a G-Bomb from the Karma Store!

Somehow, I almost expected that.

Fuck you Juicedpigentrails!!!!!!!!!!!!^



:cow:
 
Hiatussin said:
No infinity is any greater than another infinity

the sum of (1,3,5,7,9....) is just as infinite as the sum of (1,2,3,4,5...)
shup! the second infinity gets there quicker :mad:

anyway if you take enough dimensions away, infinity = 1.

boggleboggleboggleboggleboggleboggleboggleboggleboggleboggleboggleboggleboggleboggleboggle

i wonder if there are any cheezles in the fridge.. :p
 
Hiatussin said:
No infinity is any greater than another infinity

the sum of (1,3,5,7,9....) is just as infinite as the sum of (1,2,3,4,5...)

Incorrect, ℝⁿ is a distinctly greater infinity than ℤⁿ. Otherwise I wouldn't have gone to the trouble of doing all this.



:cow:
 
samoth said:
Incorrect, ℝⁿ is a distinctly greater infinity than ℤⁿ. Otherwise I wouldn't have gone to the trouble of doing all this.



:cow:

Well, I disagree. :evil:

Do explain. I don´t think you did in your first post. Not to me anyway
 
Island Son said:
i think of different dimensions as object properties
x y z time density color translucency density smell mood etc etc....

so if rate of infinity doesn't work for you, give a different example of something that can approach infinity which is not reducible to a single line (ie not integers or real numbers)

I'm not sure what you mean in your way of thinking of dimensions, but I think of them as they are defined mathematically. I'm sure there's nothing wrong with your way of thinking, lol, but I personally get used to defining things as I will be tested on and needing to use them in the future, lol.

I never really used the word rate in my original post, or using the calculus of limits to define anything. This, ∑ { Aα | ∀ α ∈ ℝⁿ} , is an infinite set. The infinite quantities/things (per se...) are already there... I'm just trying to make sense of these discretely different infinite 'things' and wondering if operators can be applied to them, or if they can be defined insomuch as denotational schema can be applied.



:cow:
 
samoth said:
I gave the definitions from analysis, which work, but I'm thinking along mathematical lines of set theory. As in, an infinite number of elements within a set,

∑ { Aα | ∀ α ∈ ℝⁿ}

here, an infinite number of elements denoted by the summation of all Aα th elements within ℝⁿ. That'd probably be a better definition than that I gave in the original post.

And LOL @ juicedmohawk just bombed you with a G-Bomb from the Karma Store!

Somehow, I almost expected that.

Fuck you Juicedpigentrails!!!!!!!!!!!!^



:cow:

lol, I remember in school a brilliant cardiologist told our class that what you are here to do is to learn a language. Thats what this education is all about, you are learning to speak a foreign language. Terms and knowledge that only you will understand.

So, how about clearly defining in words not symbols what 'your' definition of infinity is. I think that 99.99% of the people on this board are not actively involved in mathematics rendering notation as stated in that form useless lolol. You might as well not even write out using mathematical notation and symbols on this board lolol
 
BrothaBill said:
Well thats what Im trying to find out is what exactly "his" definition of infinity is. So that we are all on the same page from the start. If there are certain rules added to the most widely accepted use of the term infinity. Like should we be discussing an expression of "approaching infinity" or infinity itself, which first step is to define the terms.

I see where people are coming from with this train of thought, but I never really intended to focus on the 'approaching infininty' stuff. I really don't think it will lead anywhere.



:cow:
 
GoldenDelicious said:
anyway if you take enough dimensions away, infinity = 1.

An interesting digression, but I'm going to have to say no to your statement above.

Working in higher dimensions in mathematics isn't really anything mind-boggling or even super-interesting. I suppose it does if one is looking from an unrealistic standpoint like the real world, but that's not the correct way to look at higher dimensions.

HTH
 
Dammit, quit bombing me Juicedbihawk!!

I gotta go throw my laundry in the dryer, try to not bomb me in the 10 minutes I'm gone!

yeah, yeah, I know he will anyway, lol... *sigh*




:cow:
 
samoth said:
An interesting digression, but I'm going to have to say no to your statement above.

Working in higher dimensions in mathematics isn't really anything mind-boggling or even super-interesting. I suppose it does if one is looking from an unrealistic standpoint like the real world, but that's not the correct way to look at higher dimensions.

HTH
i live in a bit of a hick sort of town, samoth. the motto around here is: if you cant drink it, smoke it, or fuck it...then what good is it

you could use a little grounding yourself ;)
 
Hiatussin said:
Well, I disagree. :evil:

Do explain. I don´t think you did in your first post. Not to me anyway

See stuff by the Cantor guy that RedGuru mentioned earlier. Or you could look up the continuum hypothesis.

But, seriously, think about it mathematically. The set R contains all real numbers. Real numbers are isomorphic with the points on an infinitely long line, that is, they carry a one-to-one correspondence. So included in this set would be {1, 2, 2.01, 2.02, 3, 3.001, 4, 4.001, 5, 5.1x10^-32, 6, ..., i}. Upon inspection, it is obvious this set contains a larger number (more) elements than the set of integers Z != {0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, ..., j}. While both are infinite sets, the set R obviously contains more elements than Z.

∑ { Aα | ∀ α ∈ ℝⁿ} > ∑ { Bβ | ∀ β ∈ ℤⁿ}

Do you see now? We're not counting each element of each set to infinity; they both reach it. We're looking at the number of elements in each set. I know it's kinda tricky, but do you see what I mean more clearly now?



:cow:
 
samoth said:
See stuff by the Cantor guy that RedGuru mentioned earlier. Or you could look up the continuum hypothesis.

But, seriously, think about it mathematically. The set R contains all real numbers. Real numbers are isomorphic with the points on an infinitely long line, that is, they carry a one-to-one correspondence. So included in this set would be {1, 2, 2.01, 2.02, 3, 3.001, 4, 4.001, 5, 5.1x10^-32, 6, ..., i}. Upon inspection, it is obvious this set contains a larger number (more) elements than the set of integers Z != {0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, ..., j}. While both are infinite sets, the set R obviously contains more elements than Z.

∑ { Aα | ∀ α ∈ ℝⁿ} > ∑ { Bβ | ∀ β ∈ ℤⁿ}

Do you see now? We're not counting each element of each set to infinity; they both reach it. We're looking at the number of elements in each set. I know it's kinda tricky, but do you see what I mean more clearly now?



:cow:


l is a term with very distinct, separate meanings which arise in theology, philosophy, mathematics and everyday life. Popular or colloquial usage of the term often does not accord with its more technical meanings. The word infinity comes from Latin : "Infinito", unending.

In theology, for example in the work of theologians such as Duns Scotus, the infinite nature of God invokes a sense of being without constraint, rather than a sense of being unlimited in quantity. In philosophy, infinity can be attributed to space and time, as for instance in Kant's first antinomy. In both theology and philosophy, infinity is explored in articles such as the Ultimate, the Absolute, God, and Zeno's paradoxes.

In mathematics, infinity is relevant to or the subject matter of articles such as mathematical limits, aleph numbers, classes in set theory, Dedekind-infinite sets, large cardinals, Russell's paradox, hyperreal numbers, projective geometry, extended real numbers and the Absolute Infinite. By some, infinity is considered to be not a number but a concept of increase beyond bounds.

In popular culture, we have Buzz Lightyear's rallying cry, "To infinity — and beyond!", which may also be viewed as the rallying cry of set theorists considering large cardinals.1


Ancient view of infinity

The earliest known documented knowledge of infinity is presented in the Hindu Yajur Veda (ca. 1800 BC - 800 BC) which states that "if you remove a part from infinity or add a part to infinity, still what remains is infinity". The Indian Jaina mathematical text Surya Prajinapti (ca. 400 BC) classifies all numbers into three sets: enumerable, innumerable and infinite. It recognises five different types of infinity: infinite in one and two directions, infinite in area, infinite everywhere, and infinite perpetually. Jaina mathematicians were the first to conceive of different orders of infinity, including one they called unenumerable (innumerable).[1] [2] The concept of different orders of infinity would remain unknown in Europe until the late 19th century.

In Europe, the traditional view derives from Aristotle:

"... it is always possible to think of a larger number: for the number of times a magnitude can be bisected is infinite. Hence the infinite is potential, never actual; the number of parts that can be taken always surpasses any assigned number." [Physics 207b8]

This is often called potential infinity; however there are two ideas mixed up with this. One is that it is always possible to find a number of things that surpasses any given number, even if there are not actually such things. The other is that we may quantify over infinite sets without restriction. For example, ∀n∈Z(∃m∈Z[m>n∧P(m)]), which reads, "for any integer n, there exists an integer m > n such that P(m)". The second view is found in a clearer form by medieval writers such as William of Ockham:

"Sed omne continuum est actualiter existens. Igitur quaelibet pars sua est vere existens in rerum natura. Sed partes continui sunt infinitae quia non tot quin plures, igitur partes infinitae sunt actualiter existentes." (But every continuum is actually existent. Therefore any of its parts is really existent in nature. But the parts of the continuum are infinite because there are not so many that there are not more, and therefore the infinite parts are actually existent.)

The parts are actually there, in some sense. However, on this view, no infinite magnitude can have a number, for whatever number we can imagine, there is always a larger one: "There are not so many (in number) that there are no more". Aquinas also argued against the idea that infinity could be in any sense complete, or a totality.


Views from the Renaissance to modern times

Galileo (during his long house arrest in Siena after his condemnation by the Inquisition) was the first to notice that we can place an infinite set into one-to-one correspondence with one of its proper subsets (any part of the set, that is not the whole). For example, we can match up the "set" of even numbers {2, 4, 6, 8 ...} with the natural numbers {1, 2, 3, 4 ...} as follows:

1, 2, 3, 4, ...
2, 4, 6, 8, ...

It appeared, by this reasoning, as though a set which is naturally smaller than the set of which it is a part (since it does not contain all the members of that set) is in some sense the same size. He thought this was one of the difficulties which arise when we try, "with our finite minds", to comprehend the infinite.

"So far as I see we can only infer that the totality of all numbers is infinite, that the number of squares is infinite, and that the number of their roots is infinite; neither is the number of squares less than the totality of all numbers, nor the latter greater than the former; and finally the attributes "equal", "greater", and "less", are not applicable to infinite, but only to finite, quantities." [On two New Sciences, 1638]

The idea that size can be measured by one-to-one correspondence is today known as Hume's principle, although Hume, like Galileo, believed the principle could not be applied to infinite sets.

Locke, in common with most of the empiricist philosophers, also believed that we can have no proper idea of the infinite. They believed all our ideas were derived from sense data or "impressions", and since all sensory impressions are inherently finite, so too are our thoughts and ideas. Our idea of infinity is merely negative or privative.

"Whatever positive ideas we have in our minds of any space, duration, or number, let them be never so great, they are still finite; but when we suppose an inexhaustible remainder, from which we remove all bounds, and wherein we allow the mind an endless progression of thought, without ever completing the idea, there we have our idea of infinity ... yet when we would frame in our minds the idea of an infinite space or duration, that idea is very obscure and confused, because it is made up of two parts very different, if not inconsistent. For let a man frame in his mind an idea of any space or number, as great as he will, it is plain the mind rests and terminates in that idea; which is contrary to the idea of infinity, which consists in a supposed endless progression." (Essay, II. xvii. 7., author's emphasis)

Famously, the ultra-empiricist Hobbes tried to defend the idea of a potential infinity in the light of the discovery by Evangelista Torricelli, of a figure (Gabriel's horn) whose surface area is infinite, but whose volume is finite. Not reported, this motivation of Hobbes came too late as curves having infinite length yet bounding finite areas were known much before. Such seeming paradoxes are resolved by taking any finite figure and stretching its content infinitely in one direction; the magnitude of its content is unchanged as its divisions drop off geometrically but the magnitude of its bounds increases to infinity by necessity. Potentiality lies in the definitions of this operation, as well-defined and interconsistent mathematical axioms. A potential infinity is allowed by letting an infinitely-large quantity be cancelled out by an infinitely-small quantity.


Modern philosophical views

Modern discussion of the infinite is now regarded as part of set theory and mathematics, and generally avoided by philosophers. An exception was Wittgenstein, who made an impassioned attack upon axiomatic set theory, and upon the idea of the actual infinite, during his "middle period". (see also Logic of antinomies[3]

"Does the relation m = 2n correlate the class of all numbers with one of its subclasses? No. It correlates any arbitrary number with another, and in that way we arrive at infinitely many pairs of classes, of which one is correlated with the other, but which are never related as class and subclass. Neither is this infinite process itself in some sense or other such a pair of classes ... In the superstition that m = 2n correlates a class with its subclass, we merely have yet another case of ambiguous grammar." (Philosophical Remarks § 141, cf Philosophical Grammar p. 465)

Unlike the traditional empiricists, he thought that the infinite was in some way given to sense experience.

"... I can see in space the possibility of any finite experience ... we recognise [the] essential infinity of space in its smallest part." "[Time] is infinite in the same sense as the three-dimensional space of sight and movement is infinite, even if in fact I can only see as far as the walls of my room."

"... what is infinite about endlessness is only the endlessness itself."


Infinity symbol

The precise origins of the infinity symbol \infty are unclear. One possibility is suggested by the name it is sometimes called — the lemniscate, from the Latin lemniscus, meaning "ribbon". One can imagine walking forever along a simple loop formed from a ribbon.

A popular explanation is that the infinity symbol is derived from the shape of a Möbius strip. Again, one can imagine walking along its surface forever. This possible explanation is probably incorrect, however, since the symbol had been in use to represent infinity for over two hundred years before August Ferdinand Möbius and Johann Benedict Listing discovered the Möbius strip in 1858.

John Wallis is usually credited with introducing \infty as a symbol for infinity in 1655 in his De sectionibus conicus. One conjecture about why he chose this symbol is that he derived it from a Roman numeral for 1000 that was in turn derived from the Etruscan numeral for 1000, which looked somewhat like CIƆ and was sometimes used to mean "many". Another conjecture is that he derived it from the Greek letter ω (omega), the last letter in the Greek alphabet.

Mathematical infinity


Infinity in real analysis

In real analysis, the symbol \infty, called "infinity", denotes an unbounded limit. x \rightarrow \infty means that x grows beyond any assigned value, and x \rightarrow -\infty means x is eventually less than any assigned value. Points labeled \infty and -\infty can be added to the real numbers as a topological space, producing the two-point compactification of the real numbers. Adding algebraic properties to this gives us the extended real numbers. We can also treat \infty and -\infty as the same, leading to the one-point compactification of the real numbers, which is the real projective line. Projective geometry also introduces a line at infinity in plane geometry, and so forth for higher dimensions.

Infinity is often used not only to define a limit but as if it were a value in the extended real numbers in real analysis; if f(t) ≥ 0 then

* \int_{0}^{1} \, f(t) dt \ = \infty means that f(t) does not bound a finite area from 0 to 1
* \int_{0}^{\infty} \, f(t) dt \ = \infty means that the area under f(t) is not finite
* \int_{0}^{\infty} \, f(t) dt \ = 1 means that the area under f(t) approaches 1



Infinity in complex analysis

As in real analysis, in complex analysis the symbol \infty, called "infinity", denotes an unbounded limit. x \rightarrow \infty means that the magnitude | x | of x grows beyond any assigned value. A point labeled \infty can be added to the complex plane as a topological space giving the one-point compactification of the complex plane. When this is done, the resulting space is still a one-dimensional complex manifold and called the extended complex plane or the Riemann sphere. In this context is often useful to consider meromorphic functions as maps into the Riemann sphere taking the value of \infty at the poles. The domain of a complex-valued function may be extended to include the point at infinity as well. One important example of such functions is the group of Möbius transformations.


Arithmetic properties of infinity

Infinity is not a real number but may be considered part of the extended real number line, in which arithmetic operations involving infinity may be performed.


Infinity with itself

1. \infty + \infty = \infty \cdot \infty = (-\infty) \cdot (-\infty) = \infty
2. (-\infty) + (-\infty) = \infty \cdot (-\infty) = (-\infty) \cdot \infty = (-\infty)



Operations involving infinity and real numbers

1. -\infty < x < \infty
2. x + \infty = \infty and x + (-\infty) = (-\infty)
3. x - \infty = -\infty
4. x - (-\infty) = \infty
5. {x \over \infty} = 0 and {x \over -\infty} = 0
6. If 0<x<\infty then x \cdot \infty = \infty and x \cdot (-\infty) = (-\infty).
7. If -\infty<x<0 then x \cdot \infty = -\infty and x \cdot (-\infty) = \infty.



Undefined Operations

1. 0 \cdot \infty and 0 \cdot (-\infty)
2. \infty + (-\infty) and (-\infty) + \infty
3. {\pm\infty \over \pm\infty}
4. {\pm\infty}^0
5. 1^{\pm\infty}

Notice that [{x \over \infty} = 0] \not\equiv [0 \cdot \infty = x]. This is because zero times infinity is undefined.


Infinity in set theory

A different type of "infinity" are the ordinal and cardinal infinities of set theory. Georg Cantor developed a system of transfinite numbers, in which the first transfinite cardinal is aleph-null (\aleph_0), the cardinality of the set of natural numbers. This modern mathematical conception of the quantitative infinite developed in the late nineteenth century from work by Cantor, Gottlob Frege, Richard Dedekind and others, using the idea of collections, or sets. Dedekind's approach was essentially to adopt the idea of one-to-one correspondence as a standard for comparing the size of sets, and to reject the view of Galileo (which derived from Euclid) that the whole cannot be the same size as the part. An infinite set can simply be defined as one having the same size as at least one of its "proper" parts; this notion of infinity is called Dedekind infinite.

Cantor defined two kinds of infinite numbers, the ordinal numbers and the cardinal numbers. Ordinal numbers may be identified with well-ordered sets, or counting carried on to any stopping point, including points after an infinite number have already been counted. Generalizing finite and the ordinary infinite sequences which are maps from the positive integers leads to mappings from ordinal numbers, and transfinite sequences. Cardinal numbers define the size of sets, meaning how many members they contain, and can be standardized by choosing the first ordinal number of a certain size to represent the cardinal number of that size. The smallest ordinal infinity is that of the positive integers, and any set which has the cardinality of the integers is countably infinite. If a set is too large to be put in one to one correspondence with the positive integers, it is called uncountable. Cantor's views prevailed and modern mathematics accepts actual infinity. Certain extended number systems, such as the hyperreal numbers, incorporate the ordinary (finite) numbers and infinite numbers of different sizes.

Our intuition gained from finite sets breaks down when dealing with infinite sets. One example of this is Hilbert's paradox of the Grand Hotel.


Mathematics without infinity

Leopold Kronecker rejected the notion of infinity and began a school of thought in the philosophy of mathematics called finitism, which led to the philosophical and mathematical school of mathematical constructivism.


Use of infinity in common speech

In common parlance, infinity is often used in a hyperbolic sense. For example, "The movie was infinitely boring, but we had to wait forever to get tickets."

In video games, "infinite lives" and "infinite ammo" usually mean a never-ending supply of lives and ammunition. An infinite loop in computer programming is a conditional loop construction whose condition always evaluates to true. As long as there is no external interaction (such as switching the computer off, or the heat death of the universe), the loop will continue to run for all time. In practice however, most programming loops considered as infinite will halt by exceeding the (finite) number range of one of its variables. See halting problem. These terms describe things that are only theoretically infinite; it is impossible to play a video game for an infinite period of time or keep a computer running for an infinite period of time.

The number Infinity plus 1 is also used sometimes in common speech.


Physical infinity

In physics, approximations of real numbers are used for continuous measurements and natural numbers are used for discrete measurements (i.e. counting). It is therefore assumed by physicists that no measurable quantity could have an infinite value, for instance by taking an infinite value in an extended real number system (see also: hyperreal number), or by requiring the counting of an infinite number of events. It is for example presumed impossible for any body to have infinite mass or infinite energy. There exists the concept of infinite entities (such as an infinite plane wave) but there are no means to generate such things. Likewise, perpetual motion machines theoretically generate infinite energy by attaining 100% efficiency or greater, and emulate every conceivable open system; the impossible problem follows of knowing that the output is actually infinite when the source or mechanism exceeds any known and understood system.

This point of view does not mean that infinity cannot be used in physics. For convenience sake, calculations, equations, theories and approximations, often use infinite series, unbounded functions, etc., and may involve infinite quantities. Physicists however require that the end result be physically meaningful. In quantum field theory infinities arise which need to be interpreted in such a way as to lead to a physically meaningful result, a process called renormalization.


Infinity in cosmology

An intriguing question is whether actual infinity exists in our physical universe: Are there infinitely many stars? Does the universe have infinite volume? Does space "go on forever"? This is an important open question of cosmology. Note that the question of being infinite is logically separate from the question of having boundaries. The two-dimensional surface of the Earth, for example, is finite, yet has no edge. By walking/sailing/driving straight long enough, you'll return to the exact spot you started from. The universe, at least in principle, might have a similar topology; if you fly your space ship straight ahead long enough, perhaps you would eventually revisit your starting point.

If the universe is indeed ever expanding as science suggests then you could never get back to your starting point even on an infinite time scale.


Three types of infinities

Besides the mathematical infinity and the physical infinity, there could also be a philosophical infinity. There are scientists who hold that all three really exist and there are scientists who hold that none of the three exist. And in between there are the various possibilities. Rudy Rucker, in his book Infinity and the Mind -- the science and philosophy of the mind (1982), has worked out a model list of representatives of each of the eight possible standpoints. The footnote on p.335 of his book suggests the consideration of the following names: Abraham Robinson, Plato, Thomas Aquinas, L.E.J. Brouwer, David Hilbert, Bertrand Russell, Kurt Gödel and Georg Cantor.


Infinity in science fiction

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy contains the following definition of infinity:

"Bigger than the biggest thing ever and then some, much bigger than that, in fact really amazingly immense, a totally stunning size, real 'Wow, that's big!' time. Infinity is just so big that by comparison, bigness itself looks really titchy. Gigantic multiplied by colossal multiplied by staggeringly huge is the sort of concept we are trying to get across here."

Another quote from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy states: "Infinity itself looks flat and uninteresting. Looking up into the night sky is looking into infinity -- distance is incomprehensible and therefore meaningless."

Rudy Rucker's novel White Light describes a mathematician who leaves his body and travels to a kind of afterworld that includes a mountain whose Absolute Infinite height matches that of the class of all ordinals. Georg Cantor makes an appearance as a character, and the hero finds a physical correlate for Cantor's Continuum Problem.
 
BrothaBill said:
lol, I remember in school a brilliant cardiologist told our class that what you are here to do is to learn a language. Thats what this education is all about, you are learning to speak a foreign language. Terms and knowledge that only you will understand.

So, how about clearly defining in words not symbols what 'your' definition of infinity is. I think that 99.99% of the people on this board are not actively involved in mathematics rendering notation as stated in that form useless lolol. You might as well not even write out using mathematical notation and symbols on this board lolol

Um... infinity is already pretty defined. Whether analysis (which isn't much help here, I just gave it for clarity) or otherwise, they are all correct.

The purpose here is that in analyzing differentiable infinite quantities (or sets, or things, it doesn't really matter), what new way of looking at infinity -- what new way of defining infinity, if you will -- could possibly allow for denotational schema to be applied, allowing us to form an algebraic ring of some sort (that is, a defined set of operators or functions that would allow for... err, mapping. Like mapping between vector spaces. Ya know BB, the more you keep pressing this, the more disambiguously technical I'll have to get to try to answer your ever-curious nature! lol)

Meh! I'm assuming people know what infinity means. You can just look at it differently. Here, I was specifically looking at it as a defined set of numbers (elements) that is infinite. I'm asking you to think outside the box, and you keep trying to better define the box! hey, I like that analogy, lol



:cow:
 
BrothaBill said:
l is a term with very distinct, separate meanings which arise in theology, philosophy, mathematics and everyday life. Popular or colloquial usage of the term often does not accord with its more technical meanings. The word infinity comes from Latin : "Infinito", unending.

In theology, for example ***snip snip snip*** distance is incomprehensible and therefore meaningless."

Rudy Rucker's novel White Light describes a mathematician who leaves his body and travels to a kind of afterworld that includes a mountain whose Absolute Infinite height matches that of the class of all ordinals. Georg Cantor makes an appearance as a character, and the hero finds a physical correlate for Cantor's Continuum Problem.

Yeah, the mathematical definitions they give of infinity people already know. They may think they don't know it, but they're all self-obvious axioms if one were to closely inspect them. Ya know, that's why I titled this thread "A BRIEF treatise on infinity..." lol. Of course, with the infamous Brothabill, there's always the issue of semantics...



:cow:
 
samoth said:
Um... infinity is already pretty defined. Whether analysis (which isn't much help here, I just gave it for clarity) or otherwise, they are all correct.

The purpose here is that in analyzing differentiable infinite quantities (or sets, or things, it doesn't really matter), what new way of looking at infinity -- what new way of defining infinity, if you will -- could possibly allow for denotational schema to be applied, allowing us to form an algebraic ring of some sort (that is, a defined set of operators or functions that would allow for... err, mapping. Like mapping between vector spaces. Ya know BB, the more you keep pressing this, the more disambiguously technical I'll have to get to try to answer your ever-curious nature! lol)

Meh! I'm assuming people know what infinity means. You can just look at it differently. Here, I was specifically looking at it as a defined set of numbers (elements) that is infinite. I'm asking you to think outside the box, and you keep trying to better define the box! hey, I like that analogy, lol



:cow:
infinity = 鬲賮丕毓賱丕鬲, 丕賱毓囟賵賷丞, 鬲氐賵賷鬲, 丨賱賯丕鬲丕賱賳賯丕卮. 禺丿賲丕鬲 丕賱賲賵賯毓, 丨噩賵夭丕鬲丕賱爻賮乇, 廿毓賱丕賳丕鬲, 丕賱噩夭賷乇丞賲賵亘丕賷 .
 
juicedmohawk said:
Will someone please turn the lights on in here?

God dammit! I'm outta karma, too.

You probably spent two hours trying to figure out... "hmm, now if samote has 55,000 karma, and I have 27,000 karma, and a gbomb costs... uhh... 3,000... then... samote has to pay 8,000... uhh... divide 55,000 by 8,000... carry the 7... err..." *two hours later* "hey, I can run him outta karma with just enough to spare!"

Meh, that's my attempt at a comeback. I'm in the dark now. God dammit!

Anyone else up at 4am?!?! ANYONE?!?!

lol



:cow:
 
BrothaBill said:
infinity = 鬲賮丕毓賱丕鬲, 丕賱毓囟賵賷丞, 鬲氐賵賷鬲, 丨賱賯丕鬲丕賱賳賯丕卮. 禺丿賲丕鬲 丕賱賲賵賯毓, 丨噩賵夭丕鬲丕賱爻賮乇, 廿毓賱丕賳丕鬲, 丕賱噩夭賷乇丞賲賵亘丕賷 .

You knew exactly what I said, dammit! Don't pretend that was chinese to you.

... you and Juicypubicmullet are ganging up on me, aren't you!!!!

god dammit...



:cow:
 
samoth said:
God dammit! I'm outta karma, too.

You probably spent two hours trying to figure out... "hmm, now if samote has 55,000 karma, and I have 27,000 karma, and a gbomb costs... uhh... 3,000... then... samote has to pay 8,000... uhh... divide 55,000 by 8,000... carry the 7... err..." *two hours later* "hey, I can run him outta karma with just enough to spare!"

Meh, that's my attempt at a comeback. I'm in the dark now. God dammit!

Anyone else up at 4am?!?! ANYONE?!?!

lol



:cow:

sorry bro, I couldnt stand to see you all blacked out and stuff :bawling:
 
samoth said:
You knew exactly what I said, dammit! Don't pretend that was chinese to you.

... you and Juicypubicmullet are ganging up on me, aren't you!!!!

god dammit...



:cow:

lol, sweet dreams
 
Yay!

And LOL @ Private Messages in Folder: Inbox

Messages: 14 Today
07-Dec-2005 samoth, the G-Bomb was successfully diffused!
03:41 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 juicedmohawk just bombed you with a G-Bomb from the Karma Store!
03:31 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 You successfully diffused samoth's G-Bomb!
03:29 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 juicedmohawk just bombed you with a G-Bomb from the Karma Store!
03:19 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 You successfully diffused samoth's G-Bomb!
03:18 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 juicedmohawk just bombed you with a G-Bomb from the Karma Store!
03:12 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 You successfully diffused samoth's G-Bomb!
03:01 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 juicedmohawk just bombed you with a G-Bomb from the Karma Store!
02:45 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 You successfully diffused samoth's G-Bomb!
02:44 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 juicedmohawk just bombed you with a G-Bomb from the Karma Store!
02:40 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 You successfully diffused samoth's G-Bomb!
02:37 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 juicedmohawk just bombed you with a G-Bomb from the Karma Store!
02:36 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 You successfully diffused samoth's G-Bomb!
02:26 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 juicedmohawk just bombed you with a G-Bomb from the Karma Store!
02:18 AM George Spellwin


I bet the k whores are crying at our use of their precious karma, lol.



:cow:
 
Unfortunately, a lot of the symbols in this thread are coming out as small squares for me. It makes it hard to decypher some of the mathematical statements.

Skimming through this thread, though, I didn't find any considerations of
∞I ^ ∞R (Integers infinity ^ Reals infinity)

That intuitively feel like it should be a 'larger' infinity than either.

I have vague memories of Aleph-Null, Aleph-One, Aleph-two etc. but can't attach any thoughts to them. Time for a Google. :google:
 
Hiatussin said:
No infinity is any greater than another infinity

the sum of (1,3,5,7,9....) is just as infinite as the sum of (1,2,3,4,5...)

i don't think y'all should be using these two sets as an example. consider the difference between one of them and the set of real numbers....then it's something like 1,3,5,7,9,... versus 1,1.1,1.10000001,2,2.3000004,3,4,... the second set has a larger number of elements, because while there's nothing between 1 and 3 in the first set, in the second set there are an infinite number of elements in between 1 and 3, and an infinite number between any arbritarily precise elements in that range, or elsewhere...

i'm repeating myself, and you probably know what i mean, whether you think of it as different kinds of infinity or not.

samoth: did you mention different examples of infinity, besides Z and R? what different kinds of infinity can we talk about in terms of set theory? before having a language to describe this shit, we have to make sure there's enough to describe.

sorry if you explained this already.
 
The integers are countably infinite, since you can count them. The reals are uncountably infinite, since you can't.

Given a real there's no good definition of the 'next' one in such a fashion that repeated application of the method to get you to the next 'next' one would cover all possible real numbers.

Uncountably infinite is considered larger than countably infinite.
 
This from Mathworld: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Aleph-1.html

Aleph-1 is the set theory symbol for the smallest infinite set larger than (Aleph-0), which in turn is equal to the cardinality of the set of countable ordinal numbers.

The continuum hypothesis asserts that aleph-1 = c, where c is the cardinality of the "large" infinite set of real numbers (called the continuum in set theory). However, the truth of the continuum hypothesis depends on the version of set theory you are using and so is undecidable.

Curiously enough, n-dimensional space has the same number of points (c) as one-dimensional space, or any finite interval of one-dimensional space (a line segment), as was first recognized by Georg Cantor.

A famous drinking song:
Aleph-null green bottles sitting on a wall and if one green bottle should accidentally fall, there'd be aleph-null green bottles sitting on the wall.

Repeat until asleep.
 
samoth said:
Yay!

And LOL @ Private Messages in Folder: Inbox

Messages: 14 Today
07-Dec-2005 samoth, the G-Bomb was successfully diffused!
03:41 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 juicedmohawk just bombed you with a G-Bomb from the Karma Store!
03:31 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 You successfully diffused samoth's G-Bomb!
03:29 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 juicedmohawk just bombed you with a G-Bomb from the Karma Store!
03:19 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 You successfully diffused samoth's G-Bomb!
03:18 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 juicedmohawk just bombed you with a G-Bomb from the Karma Store!
03:12 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 You successfully diffused samoth's G-Bomb!
03:01 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 juicedmohawk just bombed you with a G-Bomb from the Karma Store!
02:45 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 You successfully diffused samoth's G-Bomb!
02:44 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 juicedmohawk just bombed you with a G-Bomb from the Karma Store!
02:40 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 You successfully diffused samoth's G-Bomb!
02:37 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 juicedmohawk just bombed you with a G-Bomb from the Karma Store!
02:36 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 You successfully diffused samoth's G-Bomb!
02:26 AM George Spellwin
07-Dec-2005 juicedmohawk just bombed you with a G-Bomb from the Karma Store!
02:18 AM George Spellwin


I bet the k whores are crying at our use of their precious karma, lol.



:cow:
I'll take the liberty of pointing out that you could have donated the Karmas to me and settled for turning down the brightness of your monitors while reading your own posts for the duration of the war. I could even have donated much of it back to you once hostilities had ended.
 
There is no such thing as "infinity" .. you cannot take something as symbolic as "numbers" and use them to define that which does not exist. Because you will reach a point with ANY representation where it ends.. but numbers dont because you can always just say "n+1".. well gee there you go.. infinity.

If there are only 5 apples in existence.. I can keep counting apples in my head forever.. but there are still ONLY 5 apples. so is 6 apples infinity? LOL of course not.

It applies to stars, space, anything.. because we canoot calculate the true nature of some of these with our technology.. we use the term infinity and come up with all these arcane formuals to justify it?? Seems odd.

We live in a physical FINITE universe.. space which fold back upon itself, composed of particles which are finite in size.. which move at finite speeds.

Infinity is just maths way of saying.. "we do not have the equations to cope with this dynamic."

NOTHING about our existence on any plane is infinite.


This coming from someone who studied biology.. what the fuck do I know. Samoth is a smart fucker.
 
milo hobgoblin said:
There is no such thing as "infinity" .. you cannot take something as symbolic as "numbers" and use them to define that which does not exist. Because you will reach a point with ANY representation where it ends.. but numbers dont because you can always just say "n+1".. well gee there you go.. infinity.

If there are only 5 apples in existence.. I cant keep counting apples in my head forever.. but there are still ONLY 5 apples. so is 6 apples infinity? LOL of course not.

It applies to stars, space, anything.. because we canoot calculate the true nature of some of these with our technology.. we use the term infinity and come up with all these arcane formuals to justify it?? Seems odd.

We live in a physical FINITE universe.. space which fold back upon itself, composed of particles which are finite in size.. which move at finite speeds.

Infinity is just maths way of saying.. "we do not have the equations to cope with this dynamic."

NOTHING about our existence on any plane is infinite.


This coming from someone who studied biology.. what the fuck do I know. Samoth is a smart fucker.

Very simplistic way of thinking. Math doesn´t necessarily have to fall back on matter and space and when you think it through the border between them is vague and irrelevant
 
I know hiatussin.. but what is math without applying it to something.. Mental Masturbation?

The WHOLE point of math is functional application.. coming up with some nifty sounding term "infinity" because you dont want to say "I just dont fucking know" is pointless.

The reality is that ANY formula using "inifnity" as part of its dynamic CANNOT truly be tested now can it?

Hmm sounds like... err religion?

Its great to use to help solve problems.. but just admit the fact its a placeholder.. and dont turn the nature of that which does not exist into its own science.
 
milo hobgoblin said:
I know hiatussin.. but what is math without applying it to something.. Mental Masturbation?

The WHOLE point of math is functional application.. coming up with some nifty sounding term "infinity" because you dont want to say "I just dont fucking know" is pointless.

The reality is that ANY formula using "inifnity" as part of its dynamic CANNOT truly be tested now can it?

Hmm sounds like... err religion?

Its great to use to help solve problems.. but just admit the fact its a placeholder.. and dont turn the nature of that which does not exist into its own science.
No, that's applied mathematics which some call physics. Others think of physics as applied applied mathematics.

Math is the purest of art-forms and needs no 'real-world' to justify it. Mathematical constructs are abstract entities with well-defined rules which define them and their behaviour. The concept of 'infinity' became a useful adjunct to close some logical gaps in some of those constructs. As Samoth notes in his first post, it seems almost lucky that infinity behaves as it does.
 
milo hobgoblin said:
I know hiatussin.. but what is math without applying it to something.. Mental Masturbation?

The WHOLE point of math is functional application.. coming up with some nifty sounding term "infinity" because you dont want to say "I just dont fucking know" is pointless.

The reality is that ANY formula using "inifnity" as part of its dynamic CANNOT truly be tested now can it?

Hmm sounds like... err religion?

Its great to use to help solve problems.. but just admit the fact its a placeholder.. and dont turn the nature of that which does not exist into its own science.

Math is a higher truth than observation.
 
They are inseperable.. math is used to explain observation.

Its is the ultimate and most universal language used to describe events.. if you do not use it to describe events.. then what purpose does it serve?

Language without a message is meaningless.

again.. just mental masturbation.. which is fine, but accept it for what it is.
 
milo hobgoblin said:
They are inseperable.. math is used to explain observation.

Its is the ultimate and most universal language used to describe events.. if you do not use it to describe events.. then what purpose does it serve?

Language without a message is meaningless.

again.. just mental masturbation.. which is fine, but accept it for what it is.
This is such a boring, 5th grade argument

In the end all that matters is eating drinking sleeping and procreation, right?

Ants don´t need culture or science and they have a more efficient society than we do. Lets be like them?

the concept of infinity can btw be used in math in such a way that it draws back on reality, even if none of the aspects of reality that we deal with have infinite characteristics.
 
Dont get mad hiatussin.. Im just making observations. And Im by no means a mathmetician.. LOL see I cant even spell it.

But I did spend years studying applied science.. and see the folly of infinity. Its has nothing to do with discounting the importance of math.. but I ve met so many mathmeticians who practice their art for the sake of itself. Its like a painter who perfects his art but allows no one to view it. Math is a tool, nothing more nothing less.

the concept of infinity can btw be used in math in such a way that it draws back on reality, even if none of the aspects of reality that we deal with have infinite characteristics.

Can you give me a single example thats provable? Otherwise, its a nonsensical dynamic and no one can seem to provide evidence to the contrary.
 
Hiatussin said:
This is such a boring, 5th grade argument

In the end all that matters is eating drinking sleeping and procreation, right?

Ants don´t need culture or science and they have a more efficient society than we do. Lets be like them?

the concept of infinity can btw be used in math in such a way that it draws back on reality, even if none of the aspects of reality that we deal with have infinite characteristics.
I think over again my small adventures, my fears.
These small ones that seemed so big.
For all the vital things I had to get and to reach.
And yet there is only one great thing,
The only thing.
To live to see the great day that dawns
And the light that fills the world. :rainbow: :rainbow: :rainbow:
-old Inuit song​
 
milo hobgoblin said:
There is no such thing as "infinity" .. you cannot take something as symbolic as "numbers" and use them to define that which does not exist. Because you will reach a point with ANY representation where it ends.. but numbers dont because you can always just say "n+1".. well gee there you go.. infinity.

If there are only 5 apples in existence.. I can keep counting apples in my head forever.. but there are still ONLY 5 apples. so is 6 apples infinity? LOL of course not.

It applies to stars, space, anything.. because we canoot calculate the true nature of some of these with our technology.. we use the term infinity and come up with all these arcane formuals to justify it?? Seems odd.

We live in a physical FINITE universe.. space which fold back upon itself, composed of particles which are finite in size.. which move at finite speeds.

Infinity is just maths way of saying.. "we do not have the equations to cope with this dynamic."

NOTHING about our existence on any plane is infinite.


This coming from someone who studied biology.. what the fuck do I know. Samoth is a smart fucker.

Yeah, I totally would have agreed with you (or even said this myself, I can see myself writing something just like this, lol) before I got off on wierd studies and learned hints of that wierd finite-yet-unbounded n-dimensional stuff is floating around at close to c on borrowed energy from the universe with repayment written in blood, theoretically infinite yet experimentally negligible, discrete yet continuous, clouded and eshewed from our vision by probability, generally Lovecraftianesqe and not-of-this-world, obeying geometries unheard of and strangely non-commutative stuff out there.

Trust me, math explains and does some hella wierd stuff and requires a completely different way of thinking. That's kinda how I got into the 'math' part of science/physics and it's purer esoteric counterpart.



:cow:
 
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