Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
6-oxo?????//
- Thread starter BigTimer
- Start date
If you're going to use an illegal substance, you might as well use clomid instead of using a legal, not as effective anti estrogen. Lots of people on the supp board swear by this, but seeing how it is fairly new there is no documentation of potential side effects (and it seems that lots of proH products have sides equal to that of gear). So again, I don't think it is as effective as the traditional anti-e's, and I wouldn't even consider using it on my next cycle.
Triple J
New member
Yes I think you would be fine to use it. I have gone through two bottles but my guess is you will need much more. So it may be fairly expensive in reality for a full cycle protocol. I even think I feel a little better on it than on arimidex. Your dose will need to be between 3-6 pills a day so at the upper dose one bottle lasts just ten days. You want to taper off your dose to quit.
Let say you were doing an eight week cycle. I would try to run four pills a day for ten weeks, that's 280 pills. Then for recovery for three weeks I would bump it up to six pills, that's 126 pills. I would taper off, something like 444333222. Thats a total of 433 pills if I added it all right. Call it a full eight bottles (60 pills per) and stetch it out a little further. That will run you about $240 at DPS I think.
So if you have your doubts its kind of an an expensive experiment, I would still have nolva on hand just in case, but I doubt you will have any issues from what I have seen.
Let say you were doing an eight week cycle. I would try to run four pills a day for ten weeks, that's 280 pills. Then for recovery for three weeks I would bump it up to six pills, that's 126 pills. I would taper off, something like 444333222. Thats a total of 433 pills if I added it all right. Call it a full eight bottles (60 pills per) and stetch it out a little further. That will run you about $240 at DPS I think.
So if you have your doubts its kind of an an expensive experiment, I would still have nolva on hand just in case, but I doubt you will have any issues from what I have seen.
fhg43
New member
I used 6-OXO for 3 weeks coming of a 1-AD cycle (400mg/day). I started out w/5 6-OXO caps and tapered down to 1. My cycle dosage looked like this:
Week 1: 5554443
Week 2: 3333333
Week 3: 3222111
They say when taking anti-e type drugs you want to taper so as not to cause a major estro rebound. Users have experienced this w/arimidex,L-dex, and Femera. Plus These 3 drugs have some 'potentially' harmful long term sides. Anyhow...I liked 6-OXO and thought it worked well. Last 1-AD cycle was long (10 weeks in summer 2002) and I crashed hard afterwards. This time around, I think the shorter cycle length and 6-OXO signifcantly aided recovery. On 1-AD my sex drive disappears, but this time it came back quickly. I added trib @1000mg/day (NTI T2 trib-4 caps) and this seemed to help libido too. Trib may not directly aid restoration of natural testicular function, but it appears to aid libido which IMO (via increased sex w/partner) probably leads to a quick return to normal function-I guess you single guys will just have to beat off!!! LOL
Seriously though I think 6-OXO is a good supp.
FHG
Week 1: 5554443
Week 2: 3333333
Week 3: 3222111
They say when taking anti-e type drugs you want to taper so as not to cause a major estro rebound. Users have experienced this w/arimidex,L-dex, and Femera. Plus These 3 drugs have some 'potentially' harmful long term sides. Anyhow...I liked 6-OXO and thought it worked well. Last 1-AD cycle was long (10 weeks in summer 2002) and I crashed hard afterwards. This time around, I think the shorter cycle length and 6-OXO signifcantly aided recovery. On 1-AD my sex drive disappears, but this time it came back quickly. I added trib @1000mg/day (NTI T2 trib-4 caps) and this seemed to help libido too. Trib may not directly aid restoration of natural testicular function, but it appears to aid libido which IMO (via increased sex w/partner) probably leads to a quick return to normal function-I guess you single guys will just have to beat off!!! LOL
Seriously though I think 6-OXO is a good supp.
FHG
macrophage69alpha
New member
6-oxo does not work as an aromatase inhibitor at least at the dosages used in the ergopharm study.
Results posted by Patrick Arnold indicate no impact on Estrogen.
Results posted by Patrick Arnold indicate no impact on Estrogen.
nsruffryder34
New member
6oxo does work as an anti-e but it does so in small amounts that high doses would be neccessary. 6oxo is a good product to be used post cycle to help kick in the bodys natural test production and it will combat SOME estrogen.
If you are using Anabolic Steroids you do not have to use a pescription anti-e, you could use a formestane product (either Formasin by prototype or Formastat by Molecular) this is just as good as a prescription anti-e and will be great to use during and post cycle, but if you dont have any clomidyou ight want to get some 6oxo also to try and get the nuts working again.
Hope this helps.
If you are using Anabolic Steroids you do not have to use a pescription anti-e, you could use a formestane product (either Formasin by prototype or Formastat by Molecular) this is just as good as a prescription anti-e and will be great to use during and post cycle, but if you dont have any clomidyou ight want to get some 6oxo also to try and get the nuts working again.
Hope this helps.
BigTimer said:
The real life efficacy of many otc supplements is highly unsubstantiated. I have been on 400mg/day of 6-oxo for three weeks and I thought it was working, but not anymore. I am running test enanth 800mg/week, test prop, eq, and fina (in week 4 of all this) and I started nolva therapy today at a very low dose. I will throw out the other 3 bottles of 6-oxo. It is not worth it. No man wants to have boobs. Take a gamble on something else. If you are playing with the real deal, don't take the chance, there is a big difference between prohormones and test injections.
Good luck.
collegiateLifter
New member
Re: Re: 6-oxo?????//
you might want to keep them and try them for post cycle therapy. ive heard a few good things here and there, and would be interested to here your experience
Racer-X99 said:
you might want to keep them and try them for post cycle therapy. ive heard a few good things here and there, and would be interested to here your experience
Re: Re: Re: 6-oxo?????//
If they aren't working during the first couple weeks of a cycle, I doubt it will work as effectively as a clomid post cycle. Again, I don't see the benefits of using 6 oxo on a gear cycle opposed to using nolva and clomid - especially at the prices that Triple J quoted. $240 can buy alot of anti e's.
collegiateLifter said:
If they aren't working during the first couple weeks of a cycle, I doubt it will work as effectively as a clomid post cycle. Again, I don't see the benefits of using 6 oxo on a gear cycle opposed to using nolva and clomid - especially at the prices that Triple J quoted. $240 can buy alot of anti e's.
macrophage69alpha said:
False, 6-OXO showed dramatic decreases in the rate of aromatization.
A doubling of serum testoserone, coupled with a slight decrease in estradiol is indicative of a very potent decrease in aromatase activity. Much like having the population of a city doubling, yet that amount of crime dropping slightly in the same time period is indicative of a major drop in the crime rate.
Perhaps I made the mistake of releasing this data in full, thinking that people were smart enough to understand the science. Maybe I overestimate the intelligence of people (not all people) on these boards
macrophage69alpha
New member
pa1ad said:
very poor analogy and incorrect... as most people in the supp industry you have no concept of the effects of the DRUGS you try to immitate. what you have described is the effect of WEAK aromatase inhbitors. if in fact those #'s are accurate, which is still in doubt.
post the data in full
be sure to include
pre-test measures
post-test measures
time line of testing
ASSAY TEST USED
total T
free T
E1,2,3
shbg
lh
and fsh
other hormone profiles would be useful
given data already put forth...
at very best, giving lots of lee way, a poor aromatase inhibitor... insufficient for use to prevent gynecomastia. may, stess on may, have some value as recovery tool... though with limited data even this cannot be reccomended.
Triple J
New member
I reviewed the thread on mindandmuscle, and it is a funny and informative thread. IMHO lwellyn is coming off more like the horse's ass. I mean how many times has Pat's work been ripped off by others and now they are all crying because he jumped in with the formasin? And at least he has made some efforts to fund some studies. Pat seems like the better businessman and researcher / innovator. I am not trying to kiss any ass here just look through the thread and review the history. It's kind of interesting from a business perspective. And when you think about it my guess is Pat has made good money from this biz, so at least if congress pulls the rug out from under him, he will probably be ok. Hopefully nobody will be left floating a boat. Its always tough to be on top. But maybe that is why Pat seems able to refute some of the attacks with a little more class, or maybe he just has better character in general. But I am sure it grows tiresome for him.
Well, competition is a good thing and lywellyin has made some contributions to the industry, too. Of course many think the whole PH area is bunk and all these guys are rip-off artists. I don't quite see it that way but in free markets the buyer should beware. Not to worry, soon it will all be completely regulated to the joy of the idiot politicians, joe public, and the black market profiteers (but thank god for them).
Now about the specifics of the study - the posted data was very sparse but it seems Pat is one of the few that actually tries to fund some studies from time to time, so at least give him credit for that.
As was quoted from the study on normal men (not on a cycle or anything, and not recovering from a cycle), 6OXO doubled T while holding E about constant. So the results indicate certainly a degree of effectiveness which other OTC products would be challenged to substantiate.
Since e = T * A, if T doubled, e stayed the same, A (rate) must have been cut in half.
Now the issue is how does it compare to Rx products for on-cycle use. Like my cost analyses showed 6OXO may not be cost effective for typical t-based steriod cycles, depending on your Rx choice and source. But I have not a clue as to how it ranks in effectiveness vs. Rx products in typical dosages. It has been said by many in defense of anti-e products vs. those who say that no anti-e is preferable, that even with anti-e usage, actual e levels generally stay in a normal range because of the increase in substrate, and thus the use of the anti-e is just to prevent e from getting out of hand, not to eliminate e entirely. So this argument kind of supports the results from the 6-OXO study. To say it is has no effectiveness based on these results is not accurate.
Among the new OTC suicide a-inhibitors, the Formasin product appears cheaper and if it is of similar potency to 6OXO, therefore more cost effective. But is it an effective anti-e, and at what oral potency? Well from my review there is a ton of research showing it is effective, since it is an Rx medication used in breast cancer. However, the Rx version is typically injectable. I do not know if there are any isues with oral availability but since the Rx form is injectable, it raises a question in my mind. Also formasin may have interactions with aspects of T metabolism and tamoxifen clearance because of how it interacts with other metabolic pathways. You see, in general there is more data on formasin, which raises some questions about its use for this purpose, since it has a broader Rx and research history.
For post-cycle use all the feedback for 6OXO from people who have actually tried it, seems very good, and this includes people using it to come off regular roid cycles, as compared to other Rx products. And in this scenario it seems cost effective because it seems to work quickly. But remember you are the guinea pig.
Well, competition is a good thing and lywellyin has made some contributions to the industry, too. Of course many think the whole PH area is bunk and all these guys are rip-off artists. I don't quite see it that way but in free markets the buyer should beware. Not to worry, soon it will all be completely regulated to the joy of the idiot politicians, joe public, and the black market profiteers (but thank god for them).
Now about the specifics of the study - the posted data was very sparse but it seems Pat is one of the few that actually tries to fund some studies from time to time, so at least give him credit for that.
As was quoted from the study on normal men (not on a cycle or anything, and not recovering from a cycle), 6OXO doubled T while holding E about constant. So the results indicate certainly a degree of effectiveness which other OTC products would be challenged to substantiate.
Since e = T * A, if T doubled, e stayed the same, A (rate) must have been cut in half.
Now the issue is how does it compare to Rx products for on-cycle use. Like my cost analyses showed 6OXO may not be cost effective for typical t-based steriod cycles, depending on your Rx choice and source. But I have not a clue as to how it ranks in effectiveness vs. Rx products in typical dosages. It has been said by many in defense of anti-e products vs. those who say that no anti-e is preferable, that even with anti-e usage, actual e levels generally stay in a normal range because of the increase in substrate, and thus the use of the anti-e is just to prevent e from getting out of hand, not to eliminate e entirely. So this argument kind of supports the results from the 6-OXO study. To say it is has no effectiveness based on these results is not accurate.
Among the new OTC suicide a-inhibitors, the Formasin product appears cheaper and if it is of similar potency to 6OXO, therefore more cost effective. But is it an effective anti-e, and at what oral potency? Well from my review there is a ton of research showing it is effective, since it is an Rx medication used in breast cancer. However, the Rx version is typically injectable. I do not know if there are any isues with oral availability but since the Rx form is injectable, it raises a question in my mind. Also formasin may have interactions with aspects of T metabolism and tamoxifen clearance because of how it interacts with other metabolic pathways. You see, in general there is more data on formasin, which raises some questions about its use for this purpose, since it has a broader Rx and research history.
For post-cycle use all the feedback for 6OXO from people who have actually tried it, seems very good, and this includes people using it to come off regular roid cycles, as compared to other Rx products. And in this scenario it seems cost effective because it seems to work quickly. But remember you are the guinea pig.
Last edited:
macrophage69alpha said:
As much as I would like to, I cannot print the data in its entirety at this point as it could potentially interefere with getting the study published. It has been presented for publication in some very prestigious journals.
I can say in general testosterone went up around 100% and estradiol dropped on average maybe around 10-20%
I am promoting 6-OXO primarily as a recovery agent, and the results are consistent with it being a great recovery agent.
pa1ad said:
Just in case you feel that I am blowing smoke up your ass here, I am willing to forward the data in its entirety to a TRUSTWORTHY and objective third party that agrees to maintain its confidentiallity (at least in regards to data specifics). The third party can comment all he wants on the results in general, so long as he does not reveal all the real numbers
macrophage69alpha
New member
pa1ad said:
that does not include any of your associates..... the PH whores are out.
email them to me.. since it is part of the deal...wont post the data.. but will evaluate it.. fairly.. it should include all that information
prefer scans but will accept re-type.
macrophage69alpha
New member
pa1ad said:
if you can impress that upon the "disciples" then there is not so much a problem.. from the persective of attack... that is not the case as it stands...
but as stated above it is not an effective aromatase inhibitor even if that data pans.. it is a weak one.. which for the purposes designated... now/henceforth... this is less, or not, an issue
nsruffryder34
New member
Pat, I am very trustworthy, and you have my word tat I will not publish this data. I also have a background in biochem so it will help to be able to translate the meanings.
I have no grudge against you and if you look at my past posts I am very unbiased towards companies.
I have no grudge against you and if you look at my past posts I am very unbiased towards companies.
macrophage69alpha
New member
BigTimer said:
arimidex can be easily found for 2$ or less per mg
letrozole for 3$ or less per 2.5mg (which can be take eod)
nsruffryder34
New member
Pat, My real name is Carl Graziano. I have no financial interests in this, and I am a very knowledgeble factor on this board. I am mostly into the areas of ProHormones, I am studying to earn my degree in BioChemistry @ the University of Pennsylvania. I have no ties to any supplement company or the workers of any and I am not biased to any company ( although I do love your 1AD
)
I know that this is a very sensitive matter and if you do not choose me I understand. I am looking to one day in the distant future to start my own supp. company and follow in your footsteps.
) I know that this is a very sensitive matter and if you do not choose me I understand. I am looking to one day in the distant future to start my own supp. company and follow in your footsteps.
Triple J
New member
BigTimer said:
I agree. My insurance picks up the adex, 25 1mg pills, still $25 co-pay. I think the retail cost is well over $200 the last time I was brave enough to ask. Of course this is the bonafide real deal from the pharmacy. I'm sure Mac is referring to some ldex sources.
nsruffryder34 said:Pat, My real name is Carl Graziano. I have no financial interests in this, and I am a very knowledgeble factor on this board. I am mostly into the areas of ProHormones, I am studying to earn my degree in BioChemistry @ the University of Pennsylvania. I have no ties to any supplement company or the workers of any and I am not biased to any company ( although I do love your 1AD
I know that this is a very sensitive matter and if you do not choose me I understand. I am looking to one day in the distant future to start my own supp. company and follow in your footsteps.
Mmmmm......
I just read a post where you told people that you were a "registered" biochemist (whatever that means). Here though you just say you are studying for your undergrad degree.
You also mentioned in that post that you were starting a new supplement company. Yet here you promise me that you are not biased to any supplement company.
No, I am not going to choose you. I probably am never going to trust a thing you say ever again after this either
see below
_______________________
New company (post #1)
Ok, heres the deal, as some of you may know I have been on this board for awhile, and hae been over at bb.com for even longer. Some of you may also know that I am a registered BioChemist. Well, I and a collegue of mine have started a small supplement company called SRS Nutrition. This company is going to mainly focused on the area of ProHormone Research, our first product is in the process of being bottled up right now. It is called 1-Test E, 4AD-EC Stack. It contains 100mg of 1-test ether, and 100mg of 4AD-Ester.
The reason this is an exciting supplement is that it contains 4ad ester in with the 1test ether. This makes stacking much easier by taking only a few caps a day. True, this poduct will not surpass any good transdemal and maybe not even a good ethergel, but it does have a good benefit, Cost. The retail price is only around $40 and maybe even less ( it will be announced in the next week). This will be sold from the SRS website and from a numbr of online sources as well as local stores.
If anyone has any questions or would like to recieve a discount and pre-order or order wholesale please PM me.
riskybizz007
New member
nsruffryder34
New member
Pat, I am a registered Biochemist witht the Univ. Of Pennsylvania. I would appreciated if you would not bash me as I know you do not like it when people try to make up lies about you and say you lied about your 4ad studies. The company I am starting has nothing t do witht he 6oxo and no I am not biased. Really my compnay has 1 produt so far, and rugh now all it is is a small local company with no larg base, I am sure you had to start from the bottom and not too any people new who you were when you started this. I have othing against you, frankly I think your a great guy who i respect and if it wasnt for you I wold not be doing this. I just dont want people to get the wrong idea of me by you calling me a liar or fraud, I jsut want a fair chance at doing my best with this company.
nsruffryder34 said:
Be truthful to me and I will be respectful to you. Try to bullshit me and I will let you have it.
Also, please do not call yourself a "registered biochemist" anymore. There is no such title in the real world. YOu are enrolled in the undergraduate school of biochemistry at a university. That is what you should tell people. Please do not try to deceive people with plays on words
Thanks
nsruffryder34
New member
Pat, I have been very truthful with you and with everyone else on this board. Yes, I should have used etter words, and no I am not denying that or trying to be decietful. I am going to try and run this company in an honest and professional way. I do not want to be one of the many companies that aresimply about poor products and big hype. I want to be in this for the long run. I highly respect your opinions and take your advice seriously. I assure you I am not trying to lie to anyone, everyone knows lies will always come back to hurt you and I really do not want this to happen.
nsruffryder34 said:
If honesty is gonna be the cornerstone of your new company then I don't think you are off to a good start here. No matter how I slice it, you lied to me in order to allow yourself access to my clinical study data. I am trying, but I really can't see any interpretation from the following other than deceit:
"I have no ties to any supplement company or the workers of any and I am not biased to any company "
Triple J said:
Well, I got no response on this thread from macrophage or anyone else giving Dr. Dan the OK. Therefore I have to assume that they either think Dan is unsuitable or they don't care anymore.
I get very tired of bullshit from people. They talk and talk and not much else
YOu seem like a nice fella though. Most guys are nice fellas. Some guys just want to be pricks though. It gets tiring
fogg88
New member
My two-cents worth regarding 6-OXO:
I came off a 4-week 1-AD/Boldione cycle last week, and have been using 6-OXO along with Avena Sativa and Nettle Root. (Bought them from BAC and capped them myself.)
I'm not sure which of these is responsible (Pat did say there might be some synergy between them), but I haven't lost any of the 10 lbs I put on, strength is still going up, plenty of morning wood and actual libido (getting' horny), and skin is getting oily. It actually feels to me like the post-cycle supps are doing more than the PH's were.
Anyway, one person's empirical evidence doesn't count for much, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.
I came off a 4-week 1-AD/Boldione cycle last week, and have been using 6-OXO along with Avena Sativa and Nettle Root. (Bought them from BAC and capped them myself.)
I'm not sure which of these is responsible (Pat did say there might be some synergy between them), but I haven't lost any of the 10 lbs I put on, strength is still going up, plenty of morning wood and actual libido (getting' horny), and skin is getting oily. It actually feels to me like the post-cycle supps are doing more than the PH's were.
Anyway, one person's empirical evidence doesn't count for much, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.
rogerwilcox
New member
bump! why didn't this play out to its logical conclusion? I want to know ...
RW
RW
Similar threads
