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27 needs HRT?

artificialaspirations

artificialaspirations

New member
I just got my bloodwork back and my test came in at 327. This is at the very bottom of the normal range. I don't have a problem w/ sex drive or erections but I don't feel 18 years old either. I haven't been making great progress in the gym.

I am concerned about starting to young and ruining my ability to have children. I am also concerned with the TRT costing a fortune.

I called my primary care doc back to talk about it and don't really know what to say.

Anyone have any pros and cons? Should I ask for endo referral? Should I research docs prescribing test in my area and go see them?
 
"Should I ask for endo referral"

YES and keep pushing YOUR case till someone pushes you to the higher end limit

this is a Quality of life issue
 
OMEGA said:
"Should I ask for endo referral"

YES and keep pushing YOUR case till someone pushes you to the higher end limit

this is a Quality of life issue
Click to expand...

omega im in the same boat... i am 26 and was recently placed on TRT however my test was low because of a failed PCT

i haven't taken a shot yet because i still wanted to complete a solid PCT and see if i can get somewhere naturally

however, before i ever started any AAS i had baseline bloodwork done and my test was 324 (this was 3 years ago)

im debating on what to do, i really want to do a solid PCT and see where that takes me... i only have 1 blood test & am afraid that the numbers might have been off that day for any number of reasons

however if the higher end of testosterone really does help quality of life and my test is still in the shitter after PCT i'll prob give it a shot and see how i do
 
hardcore pct with HCG, AI+ clomid if that does not work get an endo to help you

again its Quality of life nothing more
 
thanks for the replies. i can self refer if i need to and am wondering if i should do the prescription research myself. The trt seems very expensive and limiting the run-around seems critical to starting a successful program.
 
one of the compounding pharmacies in my area is sending a list of doctors they use for HRT. I'd like to get my test levels up naturally if I could and avoid a lifetime of injections and medical costs.

Anyone know a typical jumpstart protocol and how effective it might be long term?

HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - , clomid, anti-e, etc?

I also have not heard back from my new primary care regarding the low test. Should I just straight up ask for a referral or go back for more tests etc and risk wasting my time w/ someone who may not help?
 
hcg 1500 iu e3d, run with 10 mgs aromasin daily

do 3-4 total HCG shots

after last HCG run clomid @ 50mgs with Aromasin @ 10 mgs a day fof 3 more weeks

that will be $5 sir
 
I have an appointment next week. I will bring my blood test results to a new doc that was recommended to me by an owner of a compounding pharmacy specializing in HRT.

Any pointers on how to get the script that day?
 
artificialaspirations said:
I just got my bloodwork back and my test came in at 327. This is at the very bottom of the normal range. I don't have a problem w/ sex drive or erections but I don't feel 18 years old either. I haven't been making great progress in the gym.

I am concerned about starting to young and ruining my ability to have children. I am also concerned with the TRT costing a fortune.

I called my primary care doc back to talk about it and don't really know what to say.

Anyone have any pros and cons? Should I ask for endo referral? Should I research docs prescribing test in my area and go see them?
Click to expand...

Total testosterone results alone are not necessarily an accurate indicator of how much test your body actually has for use. You should get your Bio-Available testosterone tested. If that is not available, get Free Testosterone checked. However at the end of the day if you feel fine, HRT should be the last thing on your mind. Don't fix it unless it's broken!
 
I'll see what other tests the doc wants to run. I wish I would have gone to someone different in the first place, the shit is so expensive and now this round of tests is gonna come out of my pocket because the first guy didn't cover all the bases.

As far as feeling fine, yes and no. I still have sex drive and get erections no problem but they are no where as frequent or powerful as they used to be. I sometimes feel lethargic and cloudy and not as aggressive.

The biggest change happened about a year ago when I tried propecia. I took it for several months and it made me feel like a zombie and my dick wouldn't get as hard. Depressed as hell so I stopped it. Things got better but not 100%.

Maybe he can boost me up naturally with a mini-pct because I know HRT is a big deal, especially at my age. I wouldn't mind trying 200mg/wk for a couple months to see how I feel and then coming off.
 
artificialaspirations said:
I'll see what other tests the doc wants to run. I wish I would have gone to someone different in the first place, the shit is so expensive and now this round of tests is gonna come out of my pocket because the first guy didn't cover all the bases.

As far as feeling fine, yes and no. I still have sex drive and get erections no problem but they are no where as frequent or powerful as they used to be. I sometimes feel lethargic and cloudy and not as aggressive.

The biggest change happened about a year ago when I tried propecia. I took it for several months and it made me feel like a zombie and my dick wouldn't get as hard. Depressed as hell so I stopped it. Things got better but not 100%.

Maybe he can boost me up naturally with a mini-PCT - post cycle therapy - because I know HRT is a big deal, especially at my age. I wouldn't mind trying 200mg/wk for a couple months to see how I feel and then coming off.
Click to expand...

Propecia obliterates DHT, which is an important function for sex drive and erectile function. The less DHT you have in your body means there is less for it to bind to your SHBG, therefore SHBG increases and Bio-Available test goes down. Might want to get your DHT levels tested as well. Of course you will feel better on 200mg/week. However it will only mask your true issues (if there are indeed any) and make your possible natural recovery all that more difficult. I have tried HRT for about 6 months in the past an allthough I felt good while on in the initial stages, eventually the cons outweighed the pros and I came off.
 
Propecia is the debil. Amazingly it causes problems well after it's been used. Why this happens no one is really sure.

A theory I have is since progesterone and DHT are antagonistic to one another, lowered DHT from the Propecia causes some kind of progesterone dominance some how.

This progesterone dominance then decreases testosterone production and the cycle snowballs.

It's a theory though. I don't have any causative studies at hand, just the mechanisms through which the hormones effect each other.

_________________________________________________________________

http://www.mens-hormonal-health.com/
 
Stay the fuck away from Avodart, if you though Finesteride was bad, Avodart is 10 times as powerfull.


Its like the Letrozole of Estrogen.
 
It appears that the aromatase inhibitors are the most expensive part of the therapy. Which A.I do the docs typically prescribe and at what dosage?

I am just curious which ones keep down the bloat and gy.no issues the best and at what cost?

How much is clomid and hc.g and at what dose?
 
Went to a new doctor today and he seems very knowledgable about HRT, anti-aging and weightlifting in general. He actually goes to my gym.

He has me scheduled for more bloodwork and a gamut of tests talked about here on elite fitness. He seems reluctant to put me on test at my age and I agree. He says he prescribes hcg for that very problem.

I told him how my progress has halted and seems eager to help.

He also says no other meds are necessary along with the hcg, is this true? no anti-es?

I go get the hormone panel on MOn morning.
 
OK. I got my results back:

Total Test 262
Free Test 67
LH 1.9
FSH 2.4
Estrogen 15
SHGB = low
DHT = low

Doc is concerned that the LH and FSH is low in conjunction w/ the E and T. He states one is usually lowand the others high and vice versa.

I was referred to an endocrinologist for recommendations and may not be able to see him until April. I need to get more labs and and MRI done.

Anyone know why all those hormones would be low and what the possible prognosis could be? How much will an MRI cost? Is the MRI to look for pituitary tumors?
 
Forgive me, it's late and I may not be thinking straight.... but if your test levels are low, and so are your F S H and L H, that suggests SECONDARY hypogonadism, meaning it may not be your testicles, but your H P T A may not be functioning properly... so right off the bat, they will check for any tumors with an MRI (and yes, without insurance, they ARE expensive!)... if it's secondary hypo., they should put you on clo-mid (and possibly H C G) to try to kickstart your H P T A...if after of course of those meds you're still not responding, then it's your testicles (primary hypo) and you will be put on HRT, likely for life.
 
Thanks for the reply. I have insrance but still think this is gonna cost a lot. This is explaining alot because while I am strong for my size I have reached a limit in size and strength that I cannot break. I hope it is secondary and I can be brought back up but would still go the hrt route if necessary to feel normal and happy.

I'll talk to the doc tomorrow.
 
Finally saw the endo today and the MRI came out fine. He prescribed me Test replacement because of a sluggish pituitary. He wrote me a script for 100mgs every 2 weeks. Gave me one refill of 10 ml of 200mg/ml testosterone enanthate. I was excited to get the script but very disappointed in the dosage.

In two months he wants me to go back to check test total and free.

The dosage seems like a waste of time and the infrequency of injections worries me. He wants to put me on TRT and then stop it to see if I go back to normal.

Any of this sound logical?
 
My thoughts exactly. I feel the doc that referred me had a better grasp on this stuff than the endo. I guess I will try it for 2 months get the bloodwork and hope they at least double the dose.

Could they be trying to supplement my natty test by giving me a dosage so low it wouldn't shut me down completely?
 
From what I am learning, every two weeks is not good. I was prescribed Test Eth also, but at 100mg per week and I have to inject twice per week. 50mg on Mon and 50mg on Thurs. Also HCG 2 days before my shots to prevent shrinkage. No AI yet until next blood test.
 
artificialaspirations said:
Finally saw the endo today and the MRI came out fine. He prescribed me Test replacement because of a sluggish pituitary. He wrote me a script for 100mgs every 2 weeks. Gave me one refill of 10 ml of 200mg/ml testosterone enanthate. I was excited to get the script but very disappointed in the dosage.

In two months he wants me to go back to check test total and free.

The dosage seems like a waste of time and the infrequency of injections worries me. He wants to put me on TRT and then stop it to see if I go back to normal.

Any of this sound logical?
Click to expand...

It's not uncommon to see every 2 week injections, but the dosage is typically around 200mg... 50mg/wk is pretty low...

I started out at 100mg/wk...then got bloodwork and my doctor noticed that my liver enzymes and lipids were raised...he got concerned and dropped me down to 50mg/wk on the cypionate...especially given that my test levels were around the 900's with the 100mg/wk dosage...

I've been pleading with him since to put me back on 100mg/wk...he wants to see one more round of bloodwork.... you might have to bite the bullet for a while on 50mg and just tell him how awful you feel.... OR, go see another doctor...

don't assume that an endo is all-knowing... and don't assume that a regular GP won't know enough...just takes finding the right one
 
in the 500 range... though I have to say, it *feels* as if I were in the 300 range
 
I was really disappointed when I saw the dosage and frequency. Aslo when he said we will try coming off in a year I was really questioning this guys competency. He did say we will try to get me to the upper/middle range. I do have some info from Mr. Black about an H C G/H M G regiment that may work for me before I start the TRT. I am gonna email the docs the studies and see if they are willing to treat me that way. Plus I still have the test script in the mail. I don't want to be reliant on exogeneous testosterone for the rest of my life, but don't want to feel bad either.

This is very frustrating because everything takes so long to get rolling and summer time is only 4 months away. I am hoping once I get my hormones back that my sex drive and lbm will increase and I will not lose as much muscle when dieting. I've also heard that low estrogen can affect joint function and strength. My estradiol is 15.

NJ, how much were your liver values affected at 100 mg/wk? Mine have been elevated since I was nineteen and always attributed it to have too good of a time in college. I just started taking milk thistle and alpha lipoic acid on a regular basis, eventhough I hardly ever drink and do not use juice. Hopefully they will come down a biut next year.

Also, do the docs ever prescribe test p.rop for trt? Is bloat an issue at 100 or 150mgs/week?
 
Well, at this point you would either use H C G as treatment to try and jumpstart your H P T A (along with clo-mid, possibly).... -OR- use it as part of your HRT to maintain tesicular volume and natty test production (for future, in case you want to have kids).

Otherwise, don't add too many variables that will affect your bloodwork and give misleading results.

My liver values and lipids have been slightly elevated since being on HRT... everyone responds different in that aspect. Ever since, I've been taking Liv52.

Docs usually don't prescribe pr-op... and if you're anything like me, you'll bloat with pr-op regardless... it's not any different than enth or cyp for me. Submit those papers to your doctor and see what he says. After a few weeks of being on at 50mg/wk, tell him you still feel like crap.... ask him to put you on 100mg/wk and see how that goes. If he doesn't reason with you, then find another doctor. Sorry to say, but it's not a quick process....it takes time getting into a "groove" that is satisfactory to everyone.
 
Test came today. Just took my first 50mg dose of hrt. Its pretty cool seeing a bottle of test w/ a pharmacy sticker on it. Its not cool having to rely on it and possibly pin for the rest of my life.

I did a semen sample that came back low. Haven't spoke with the doc about that yet but it may be ammunition enough to do a heavy pct protocol to see if that will work for me.

Does anyone have info about clomid raising fsh and lh levels?

He's supposed to call me back today. We'll see.
 
artificialaspirations said:
Finally saw the endo today and the MRI came out fine. He prescribed me Test replacement because of a sluggish pituitary. He wrote me a script for 100mgs every 2 weeks. Gave me one refill of 10 ml of 200mg/ml testosterone enanthate. I was excited to get the script but very disappointed in the dosage.

In two months he wants me to go back to check test total and free.

The dosage seems like a waste of time and the infrequency of injections worries me. He wants to put me on TRT and then stop it to see if I go back to normal.

Any of this sound logical?
Click to expand...

you sure he's really a doctor lol?

j/k, but NO it doesnt sound logical.

I'm very hesitant to get in the middle of a doctors instructions (for someone else anyway), but I'd look around for a sports doctor who's in your insurence plan who may be more familiar with seconadary HG after aas and the use of PCT. It sounds like the propecia screwed up your hpta simiar to what would happen post cycle. A solid PCT may get things right again.

listen to NJmuscle, he's spot on with this
 
I am stuck at the fact the internest who referred me was more knoweldgeable about test dosages, frequency, weightlifting, supplements, etc and he referred me to this endo who seems like he knows nothing. I want to deal w/ the first guy but am at the mercy of the second it seems.

Anyway, any issue w/ staying on test for awhile to make up for lost time and then attempting the hcg/hmg protocol? It doesn't seem like my hpta could get much worse and if the pct fails I could always go back to test. I was thinking doing the hrt for at least 6 months.

My only concern is the ability to have children in a few years.
 
Second sperm sample came back fine. First one was low but I wasn't told to wait 72 hours without release.

Anyway, now the doc is convinced my nuts work and said he wants to go a different route besides the test...ding, ding, ding...clomiphene citrate!

He wants me to take it 3 times a week, MWF, for 3 months and then get a blood test. I took a 100mg shot of test today to hold me over until I get the new script ~1-2 weeks.
 
Update:

Had bloodwork drawn a week ago and saw the doc today. Had been taking 50 mg clomid MWF.

Results:

Total test 2
Free test .7

Needless to say he put me back on injections, this time at 75 mg/week. Will get bloodwork in 10 weeks to check levels.

Also, it appears he forgot about the old script and wrote up a new on today. I have 1600 mg in reserve. I was thinking of taking 320 mg/ week extra for the first 5 weeks and then returning to hrt dosage for 4 weeks before blood test. What do you guys think?
 
switched docs and primary care put me on 150/week. feel great. I've backed down to 120/week because right nipple became sensitive and I feel the same only nipple doesn't bother me. last bllod test said total t 1010 and free t ~220.
 
im in the same boat right now too, except im 22 and its as a result of abusing steroids when i was 16/17. what do u think are the long-term sides to being in hrt for the rest of our lives? would it have any detrimental effects on our sex drives and ability?
 
One that immediatly springs to mind (and I am by no means an expert bro) is the possibility of not being to have kids if youre only 22.

If you do want to have kids, that would certainly be a question I was asking my doc.
 
ive actually got y-chromosome microdeletion which is a genetic disorder screwing up my sperm. my last test i had like 3 viable sperm so i actually have sperm stored at a bank that id have to use. it really pisses me off that i wasnt meant to have kids but hopefully in-vitro will be sucessful in the future.
 
liftr486 said:
ive actually got y-chromosome microdeletion which is a genetic disorder screwing up my sperm. my last test i had like 3 viable sperm so i actually have sperm stored at a bank that id have to use. it really pisses me off that i wasnt meant to have kids but hopefully in-vitro will be sucessful in the future.
Click to expand...

I will hit it for you if you need kids! Just make sure she is hot!
 
liftr486 said:
thanks, i appreciate that
Click to expand...

And if that is her in your avi forget it, she is cheating on you! I hit that last week.

JK
Wow that is one hot avi!
 
the saga continues.

Had my yearly physical and bloodwork is excellent. Low cholesterol, triglicerides, liver values etc.

Semen sample came back with ZERO sperm. All other elements of semen was normal, pH, volume, lubricity, etc

To summarize, I'm 28 now, been on HRT for about 8 months at 100-140mg/week.

My wife and I want to have kids in a few years so ZERO is not an option. I had 12 million over 6 months ago.

Primary care says there is hope since I have semen and was not born sterile.

I have stopped the cyp and will start clomid in a week or two. I can't see the endo until April.

From reading it looks like I need HCG and HMG as well.

I think I'm done w/ HRT and not looking forward to a life of low test levels. Hopefully these doctors can get me on a heavy duty PCT and get my levels back to acceptable range.

A little bummed too cause I had a cycle plan for march-june.
 
Wow, I have been on for almost 2 years now! I wonder what my sperm count is? I used to have huge sperm numbers because I accidentally got several womanz pregos not counting the x wife who got pregnant 4 times and we really didn't have much sex, as expected we were married! LOL
Let us know how it works out for you.
Are you planning on running any HCG to with the clomid?
 
Well doing all of this under the supervision is the right way to do. All though it probably doensn't seem fast enough its the correct way to do it!
GLTY
 
You don't have to come off TRT to be fertile again. A combination of HCG/HMG is usually enough for fertility, according to my endo. She also said that some guys have gotten wives pregnant while on Test and no hcg.

If it were me, I would stay on TRT and use HCG occasionally to keep testes 'awake'. And when you want to be fertile add in the HMG and possibly clomid.

I ran out of test 3 weeks ago, problem with refill, and have been getting by on HCG alone. Reminds me of how i felt before TRT, i can't imagine getting off.
 
I'm not looking forward to it. RIght now I'm a bit panicked and just want to produce sperm again. I am not looking forward low test levels again. I have 2 months until I can see endo. I don't know what to do in the mean time...I was gonna start clomid tonight.
 
artificialaspirations said:
I'm not looking forward to it. RIght now I'm a bit panicked and just want to produce sperm again. I am not looking forward low test levels again. I have 2 months until I can see endo. I don't know what to do in the mean time...I was gonna start clomid tonight.
Click to expand...
With 8 months of HRT level test injections, are your balls small as hell now? Not :rainbow:, just wondering.
Cause that would bother the fuck out of me.
 
I have not had and issue with nut size and been on for 2 years now...
 
OK. last test inject was 4 weeks ago I just finished 3 weeks of clomid. My endo can get me in on tuesday. I wnat to take the blood tests asap so we can get to the bottom of this azoospermia. How long since my last clomid should I wait for my fsh, lh, test, dht, etc to normalize?
 
Wait til your 38 and as soon as you get inside you blow..... that sucks.....(sorry no pun intended.) HRT at 27? Whew man, I would think twice about that stuff.
 
goin on 4t, do u use any tupe of AI? I went back on my HRT after my last blood test had me at 94 for my test level but I was too aggressive and didnt listen to my doc and did higher than therapuetic levels and for the past week I cant get hard for shit and have no sex drive watsoever....im assuming its high e levels since i was also feeling nip sensitivity but this is ridiculous- i lost a hard on last night with my beautiful new girl--soo embarassing--calling doc at 9am est and wanted to ask for something......not taking hcg right now, figured most people arent on test and hcg for hrt right?
 
liftr486 said:
goin on 4t, do u use any tupe of AI? I went back on my HRT after my last blood test had me at 94 for my test level but I was too aggressive and didnt listen to my doc and did higher than therapuetic levels and for the past week I cant get hard for shit and have no sex drive watsoever....im assuming its high e levels since i was also feeling nip sensitivity but this is ridiculous- i lost a hard on last night with my beautiful new girl--soo embarassing--calling doc at 9am est and wanted to ask for something......not taking hcg right now, figured most people arent on test and hcg for hrt right?
Click to expand...

First off, No I take no AI. That is not a recomendation for anyone not too.
The HCG is for nuts not for AI I think. I would shoot needto or hayez a PM and ask them they are GTG.
I think either unleashed here or armidex or nolva.
BTW, I have a bottle of nolva just in case!
 
Doc left results on message yesterday. LH, FSH, Prolactin, dht and free test all in normal range. I'll try to get actual numbers tomorrow. Test came back 562 and sperm count was 26 million. That's low but hell of a lot better than 0. I think I'm still recovering and those numbers will be back up to 100 million in a few months.

I'm gonna stay off the hrt for now but still might use the test every once in a while. I'm gonna ask the doc for hcg to help my sperm counts since we know it will boost them.

The only difference in my lifestyle that I can attribute to the increased test production is working straight days. I was on a rotating shift schedule before and wasn't getting good sleep having to work day/night/day/night.

I don't feel as good as I did on the test, but am happy with the news.
 
Mr. Black said:
Propecia obliterates DHT, which is an important function for sex drive and erectile function. The less DHT you have in your body means there is less for it to bind to your SHBG, therefore SHBG increases and Bio-Available test goes down. Might want to get your DHT levels tested as well. Of course you will feel better on 200mg/week. However it will only mask your true issues (if there are indeed any) and make your possible natural recovery all that more difficult. I have tried HRT for about 6 months in the past an allthough I felt good while on in the initial stages, eventually the cons outweighed the pros and I came off.
Click to expand...

What were the cons?I am starting on TRT...And also what are the solutions in the case DHT is the problem?
 
How were you able to get off TRT? Please helps us bros out with the same problem and let us know the dosages of HCG and Clomid you used and for how long. Thanks.
 
Wow, didn't know clomid alone could bring things back that well. Thanks for the answer, and please keep us updated. Have you considered HCG for possibly even better results?
 
well to update this. 29 years old now and test is back in the toilet. total was 354, free 91. estradiol 8. I am back on hrt 150/week. I will probably back down to 100-120 as I felt fine on those dosages and had less nipple sensitivity. I feel better already, well-being, mood, etc. Sperm production is still ok and this time my doc has a plan of cycling hcg along with the test to maintain my fertility.

I feel bad about having to do the hrt but feel much more human and confident doing so...
 
You cant trick your body forever, eventually you will just suppress your body until you reach the point where erections are difficult and for a man your age its the only important thing in life, well aside from my children at least. It may take a wile but you will get there. I know many people who are there now.... Ive been there myself, however, I was not under the supervision of a doctor. With that said some of them where and one of them is a doctor, they just keep injecting higher doses to try and fix the problem when they are just creating a bigger problem.

For me the quality of life is better off. I am not on viagra full time anymore and just use it as a recreational drug for when I want to go forever. My strength is not what it use to be but my size is very good. My natural test level is low but I feel so much better in the end.

I think your test level back in your May post was good and good enough to have kids if that's still your plan. I have two kids and was never able to get my wife pregnant while on, only while off. Personally I don't think you need trt. I think healthy eating and good sleep habits are a better alternative for a better sense of well being, increase in muscle mass and strength.

By the way, you will never feel as good as you do while on trt compared to being off but give it time and you will feel better off than you were while on. I know thats not what you want to hear but thats just my 2 cents. I sure do miss the feeling of test running through my veins though.
 
Sounds to me like your balancing back and forth between sperm count (for kids) and higher test levels (feeling good while on TRT).

I personally would want to feel good UNTIL I got ready for the kids. When you get ready to start trying for kids, go off and get your sperm count up. Once shes pregnant get your levels back in place while you have 8 months of the baby in the oven. Once the kid/s come your going to want to be feeling top notch because newborns can be alot of work. Sleep beomes an issue and if your rock bottom on you levels your in for a miserable time. Trust me I have 4 kids and I wished I would have had my hormones in check then.

I dont really know what your status is married or single etc, or how soon your planning on kids, but you obviously seem to have a grasp on your T levels and your sperm counts. It seems through trial and error you have learned how to control both.

It seems with some careful planning you could feel good on TRT and then go off until you do what you need to do when its time for the kiddos.

When ur done having kids then go back on or whatever you chose.

Does that make sense?
 
yes it does and that is the plan. my wife won't go off birth control for another year.

as for steroids4me, my quality of life is miserable while off. Enough so that i'm willing to take the side effects just to feel normal. I've never used viagra and didn't have a problem with erections when my test level came back at 2. that's right two. the desire just wasn't there and i still attribute this loss of sex drive to my run with propecia. btw, my sleep and diet are impeccable. I'm not new to the weightlifting game. I take care of myself and am in excellent health sans the low test. i've been off for 6 months and don't feel any better.

The ED scares me though...
 
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